Ex and I ended whatever it is we had Part 2

[hopefulbutlost17]

Just a quick update since the weekend:

My ex's bday was on Saturday and I did send her a "happy bday" message.  Later in the day, she sent me a "guilt" text, and I say it like that cause I knew she wasn't getting the attention from me like she wanted.  She said, "I wish my bday would've been spent with you. I know it would've been more fun that what I'm having now.  I didn't even get to see my dad. It's whatever, just lonely, but I'm used to it by now." Fast forward to the evening where she went out with her best friend C and got drunk, she sent me messages asking me to be awake and to answer her calls, to stay up with her cause she didn't want to pass out at the club she was at, etc.  Honestly, I was annoyed.  Why me? Why call me? Call your other friends you talk all day every and idealize to stay up with you.  She ended up facetiming me and made a comment saying "you look tired". Well yeah, It's 1:30am and you woke up up.  I told her "yes I'm tired, I was asleep."  She said "okay, I'll let you go" and hung up.  Messaged me around 6am saying she couldn't sleep, I didn't answer until about 40 minutes later asking "why"  Later on the next day she asked if she could spend her Sunday with me at home. I said yes since i didn't want to get in an argument and ruin her bday weekend.  She came over, we cuddled, binged watched a show on netflix and she finally took the things she left behind at my place.  BUT she didn't have my apartment keys with her and said she'd drop them off later.  

Fast forward to yesterday, she asked me random questions that she could've gotten the answer from someone else.  then, I got a message saying "leave me on see, okay, cool."  I was actually busy at work all morning and I explained that to her, she said it was ok.  Later on she asked what I was doing (this was after I got off work) and I stated I was going to 1 of 2 appointments (chiropractor and my counseling session).  She said "I hope it goes well. I here to listen if you need to vent." She knows I'm going to counseling. Once I was out she kept saying she was hungry and specific restaurant would be perfect.  I kept going on and agreed that yes it would be perfect for dinner.  I finally took the bait and asked her if she wanted to join me for dinner.  She said yes and i picked her up.  We had a good conversation throughout the drive and dinner.  I kept getting message notifications on phone and would reply every now and then (especially when she would check her phone).  On the drive home I noticed she changed her demeanor.  I asked what was wrong and pried a little but in the end she just said she was tired.  After I dropped her off, I got home and she blew up on me. Said she was annoyed and began telling me that I'm a liar and I'm hiding things from her, hiding my phone, who I talk to, and that that's not what she and I do with each other.  Kept calling me out that I was hiding my phone from her, that she doesn't hide her phone, etc. etc.  I kept my cool and said "I can see you're annoyed. I am not hiding my phone. Goodnight" She kept going and going saying the same things, I was hiding things from her, not telling her who I speak to, we don't do that, I'm not open with her, I act like a good girl, etc.  I stated again "I see you're upset. I'm not hiding anything, goodnight." She left me on read.  

She just messaged me a while ago in response to my "good morning" message and told me she pulled an all nighter cause she couldn't sleep. I asked why and she said i don't know. I suggested that maybe it's whatever is going on with her and she said maybe that she's been like this for a while now. Which I believe cause guess who gets the messages and calls in the middle of the night? Me, of course.

Thoughts?

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[hopefulbutlost17]

i like your counselor! id encourage you to explore some of that homework regarding abandonment issues and codependency on the Learning board, and get some feedback there.

if you want to be friends, you need "ex/friend" boundaries. honestly, in those friendships, there usually isnt much "taking or giving". it tends to be much lighter, mostly just catching up, saying how ya doing.

I like my counselor too! She's straightforward and connects everything that I have questioned for so long.  She even made a comment stating "your ex knows you come to counseling and will end up saying that I'm wrong and I'm just trying to take you away from her. It's all part of my evil plan." I mentioned to her that I didn't doubt my ex would, since she has done it with my family members and friends. 

I did post an update a few minutes ago about the last couple of days.  I would love yours and anyone else's thoughts on it and something else.

Dissecting my r/s with my ex over the years, I've noticed that she separates me from my friends/gym buddies, tells me she doesn't like them for one reason or another.  Or if I mention someone to her that i get along with really well at the gym and that they're an awesome person, I have noticed that she will follow them on social media and has changed her gym time slot to the time that they are actually there.  Now she changed her time slot mainly to avoid bad vibes and drama from her original time slot (I don't blame her, Im looking to change my time slot too).  But i've noticed that the people i talk about from the gym are now names that are coming out of her mouth (that they compliment her, talk to her, are nice to her, etc.).  I've also noticed that she follows other people that she has seen on my social media when check it that i would never think she would follow.  It's weird to me. I have a couple of conclusions that I'm jumping towards but I may be completely wrong about them... I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[once removed]

Thoughts?

honest question: do you want to detach, or do you want help navigating a relationship with her (of any kind). or some of both?

the advice/support members give very much depends on that answer.

[hopefulbutlost17]

honest question: do you want to detach, or do you want help navigating a relationship with her (of any kind). or some of both?

the advice/support members give very much depends on that answer.

I'll be honest, some of both.

[once removed]

I'll be honest, some of both.

i moved your thread to the Bettering board. the members on Detaching are working the stages of grief, and so the advice youre going to get will reflect that.

whatever path you choose, i think you dont want to keep fighting the old battles, or starting any new ones.

your counselor can help identify aspects of you that feed into the dysfunction of all this, and it sounds like she is. additionally, it would be a good idea to use the tools and get feedback if youre going to try to navigate any kind of relationship with her.

there are some long term, and some short term problems here. neither of you is done, it sounds like, but neither of you is quite sure where you want to see things go. do i have that about right?

[once removed]

can you remind us who initiated the breakup, or was it mutual?

[hopefulbutlost17]

can you remind us who initiated the breakup, or was it mutual?

We were never “officially” together. But I brought up the subject by asking her what she wanted from me since she kept treating me like a partner, but the minute I started to, she would pull back and say we are not. So I guess you can say I did by saying I cannot be her friend the way she wants me to. I did it to protect myself. My vision of her is different now.

[once removed]

okay.

so it sounds like a lot of push/pull going on between the two of you. she moves closer to you emotionally/physically... .you move closer to her she pulls away. you pull away, she moves closer to you... .sometimes the two of you meet in the middle, but not for long.

do i have that about right? and how long has it been going on?

[hopefulbutlost17]

 We’ve been on and off for 3 years. It’s gotten more intense since this past July... and i say more intense due to certain events that have happened since Feb/March.

[once removed]

thats a long time. youve been unofficial all that time?

was the last time the two of you spoke the fight about you "hiding your phone"? any update?

[hopefulbutlost17]

thats a long time. youve been unofficial all that time?

was the last time the two of you spoke the fight about you "hiding your phone"? any update?

I made it official about 3 times in the last 3 years(the longest we last was 6 months at the very beginning of our relationship, the times after that last no more than 1-3 months at a time) we have been on and off. We have been messaging every day since she made a big deal about me “hiding my phone.” However, I’ve been very “whatever” (so she says) with my responses.

My demeanor has changed with her, I have made myself less available to her. I’m annoyed and exhausted (cause it finally clicked what I really am to her) and stressed (work related) so that puts me in a not so giving mood.

For example, she asked me to take her food today. She said “want to bring me food”. I replied with “I’m busy right now but I’ll be making wings later if you want to come by the apt). Now that I’m making the wings she asked if I wanted her to head over and my reply was “sure” (mind you I’m prepping the sauce and my food for tomorrow). Her response “you sound so whatever. I’ll just stay home. Have a goodnight” i said “I’m making the sauce but ok. Goodnight” her response “you always do that” I asked “do what?” Her response “nothing” 


How can I respond to her in a manner that’s not mean but letting her know “hey, ask your other friends to do the things you’re asking me to do”. I have absolutely no problem helping her out or taking her food, etc. But I have my limits and I am not her partner (so she reminds me every chance she gets). I feel used. How do I communicate this in the actual state I’m in right now without being mean or for her to comprehend?

[once removed]

I feel used.

i would probably feel the same way.

however, it may be that shes trying to connect with you, and shes not going about it in the best of ways... .kinda needy or demanding in her approach, but means well.

you do sound put off/hesitant toward her, and it probably shows. it always did with my ex. people with BPD traits are hypersensitive to it.

if you want to connect with her, i might alter my approach slightly. youre both a little passive aggressive with each other. drop the "im busy but" and "sure". show a little enthusiasm. be fun and upbeat.

but if not, be clear and firm. now isnt a good time, maybe some other time. if she tells you that you sound so whatever, goodnight, dont JADE. dont tell her youre making the sauce but okay, just let it go gracefully, and she will get the message.

what do you think?

[hopefulbutlost17]

I could try those approaches. Just feels like anything I say or donjust sets her off. And you’re right, I’m very put off by her.

Well, she came over for dinner but I burned the wings (wasn’t keeping track of them). She was quick to blame me after I apologized and I even offered to buy more to make or to buy a pizza. She kept saying no. We talked about other stuff, which I did say some things that may have  annoyed her and She was quick to blame me for what she’s gojng through due to stupid drama at the gym. She threw in that she’s still civil with me even though I caused her to feel the way she does about what happened at the gym back in March.  I did try to salvage it by changing the subject. Her annoyance just escalated after a while. She started knit picking at me (you’re chewing too loud, I’m hungrh, don’t  push the conversation, etc). I offered to get her food again, she said no. I put on her favorite show st her request only for her to say she wanted to go home cause she was annoyed. I asked what annoyed her and that I wanted to understand but nope, didn’t work, so I walked her out to give her her space like she wanted. But of course that didn’t stop her to say “I expected the food to be ready and you burned it. You said you were going to have it ready and look what happened. Now I’m hungry”. I offered one more time and she kept insisting on leaving so I said okay.

So we can say, the evening went to crap and I am back at square 1 and feeling down. I know I shouldn’t have said certain things but sometimes, I can’t help it... I guess when she gets back to baseline, I can try using your suggestions next time she asks me to do something for her. Sometimes I just want to give up...

[hopefulbutlost17]

I may have made a mistake in sending her a message and apologizing for “triggering” her.  It probably made me look weak. I really just wanted to let her know I understood why or wanted to understand why but she replied with “you always say that”. I also said that I am learning and said goodnight. Her response was “bye. Leave now”.

I am still annoyed and feel used and unappreciated. I made a mistake... I’m human.

Now I’’ getting messages like “why did you make me feel like this. I was fine. Why”

[once removed]

if someone punches you in the face, it wont help you to say "hey, whats wrong? what did i do to upset you and how can i make it better".

an extreme example, obviously she didnt punch you in the face, but she was a guest, at your treat, and a pretty rude one.

you dont want to be a bulldog, but neither do you want to be a doormat. you dont want to escalate or make matters worse, but you dont want to send the message that its cool to treat you this way.

whats going on with the messages?

[hopefulbutlost17]

if someone punches you in the face, it wont help you to say "hey, whats wrong? what did i do to upset you and how can i make it better".

an extreme example, obviously she didnt punch you in the face, but she was a guest, at your treat, and a pretty rude one.

you dont want to be a bulldog, but neither do you want to be a doormat. you dont want to escalate or make matters worse, but you dont want to send the message that its cool to treat you this way.

whats going on with the messages?

Once Removed,
Thank you, I was honestly feeling guilty for what happened last night.  I know a topic of conversation was the gym (I'm learning it's a sensitive one for her) and any advice or suggestions I offer to her about people who tell her things is not going to work. After thinking about it, I learned that whenever she talks about gym related things, just to listen, keep my mouth shut about how people approach her and what she should do unless asked. That's what triggered her.

Once she left, I reached out cause as I mentioned before, I felt guilty at the time that I was the one who triggered he annoyance.  I sent "Just want to apologize for tonight... I'll respect your need for space, just want to let you know I'm thinking of you and hope this passes soon." After that, she went off. She replied "No you weren't (i guess thinking of her of apologzing, idk). You could've just stayed quiet." I said "I know, that's why I'm apologizing. I do want to understand you better. I'm learning. And not just about you and your needs but about myself too." Her reply "you always say that. you should know me by now and I hate when that happens" My response "I know, I do too, I am learning. You know normally I wouldn't apologize this quickly. I hope you see that" Her response "I know. Then I was waiting for food. I stopped eating junk food just for that and then that happens. You never burn your food 'by accident'." My response "Yes by accident. I thought it would take longer to cook cause in the past it has." Her response "Yup" my response "Okay, goodnight" She continued "Bye Leave now. Why why do you get me like this. I was fine. Ugh" My response "You're right, I wasn't listening. I just wanted to help." Her response "I'm so f**ing moody, annoyed, hungry, ugh!" I responded "I'd offer to go eat with you" She continued "You ate, nothing is open. I wanted pizza." I said "yes I know, and I offered to get you pizza when I told you the wings burned" Her response, "whatever" and I went to sleep after that. I wasn't going to continue.

Today, messages are distant and small talk. However, she did mention she's still craving pizza.

[once removed]

have you heard/read about not JADEing? it would help with these round and arounds.

[hopefulbutlost17]

have you heard/read about not JADEing? it would help with these round and arounds.

Yes, I have and I tried to stray from it as much as possible. In the past, had I not known about JADEing, we would've gone back and forth all night and it would've gotten very ugly with words.

I feel I have been painted black for a while now and that there's no recovering from it. 

[once removed]

In the past, had I not known about JADEing, we would've gone back and forth all night and it would've gotten very ugly with words.  

it might still be happening in the present  

not JADEing, on some level/in some cases is about learning to put down and walk away from a conversation and not fuel a circular argument. either letting go of the need to be right and hammer your point of view, or letting go of trying to fix/solve/soothe/adjust the other persons point of view. its about not chasing just as much as it is not berating.

lets walk the last one through... .

Once she left, I reached out cause as I mentioned before, I felt guilty at the time that I was the one who triggered he annoyance.

without really speaking to the back and forth of that night (maybe you "triggered her annoyance", maybe she was rude and cranky, maybe both), sometimes its best to let it go, and let the other person self soothe and get back to baseline. apologies are good and mature offerings... .but they should be made, sincerely, when we recognize that we betrayed our own values, someone elses boundaries, and hurt someones feelings. not necessarily because theyre mad at us and we dont want them to be.

I sent "Just want to apologize for tonight... I'll respect your need for space, just want to let you know I'm thinking of you and hope this passes soon."

you made food for her and she went off on you for burning it. just saying, once, "man im sorry i burned the food" is reasonable enough (you did that at the time).

as a subtle point, "hope this passes soon" may be interpreted by a person that their feelings are a burden, and it makes a mountain out of a molehill that might have otherwise blown over.

After that, she went off. She replied "No you weren't (i guess thinking of her of apologzing, idk). You could've just stayed quiet." I said "I know, that's why I'm apologizing. I do want to understand you better. I'm learning. And not just about you and your needs but about myself too." Her reply "you always say that. you should know me by now and I hate when that happens"

her: youre such a jerk!
you: i know, im trying to be better

My response "I know, I do too, I am learning. You know normally I wouldn't apologize this quickly. I hope you see that" Her response "I know. Then I was waiting for food. I stopped eating junk food just for that and then that happens. You never burn your food 'by accident'." My response "Yes by accident. I thought it would take longer to cook cause in the past it has." Her response "Yup"

round and round.

my response "Okay, goodnight" She continued "Bye Leave now. Why why do you get me like this. I was fine. Ugh"

in these moments, let it end there. anything else is gasoline on the fire.

My response "You're right, I wasn't listening. I just wanted to help." Her response "I'm so f**ing moody, annoyed, hungry, ugh!" I responded "I'd offer to go eat with you"

her: its all your fault you jerk!
you: can i get you something to eat?

you dont want to berate her, point out how unreasonable shes being, or tell her to go shove it. that wont help. by the same token, you dont want to bend over and tell her to give you more. it invites more. dont pick up the hot potato. her moodiness is hers to soothe. her rudeness is not for you to apologize for.

make sense?

[hopefulbutlost17]

Makes complete sense! Thank you! Now, I think I'll be able to see the "you're a jerk" part instead of all the detailed things she says, and go from there. And you're right, she was a guest, a rude one and in the end she should be apologizing for her actions. I shouldn't be condoning her behavior either.

So, surprise, MAJOR surprise. I just received a message from her saying "I want to apologize for yesterday."  Wow! Just wow!  I'm am beyond happy she sent that. Getting her to recognize her wrong doings has ALWAYS been a struggle with me. I know that's where all my resentment towards her comes from. She would pull something and then come back like nothing happened, no apology, nothing. I have yet to reply... .I'm trying to think of a way to reply but not be over excited or proud of it. 

Now of course, I'm wondering. Is she saying sorry for her benefit, or is she being sincere? She's a tricky one... I'm hoping sincere, but either way grateful she apologized on her own.

[once removed]

Getting her to recognize her wrong doings has ALWAYS been a struggle with me.

good boundaries arent about training people to be better toward us. theyre more about accepting someone as they are (no worse, no better), and using the tools at our disposal to have a workable, safe relationship.

I'm trying to think of a way to reply but not be over excited or proud of it. 

just be cool  . do you appreciate the apology? say that. then let it go.

[hopefulbutlost17]

good boundaries arent about training people to be better toward us. theyre more about accepting someone as they are (no worse, no better), and using the tools at our disposal to have a workable, safe relationship.

just be cool  . do you appreciate the apology? say that. then let it go.

True, they are not. I'll continue reading the tools to learn to set boundaries.  With everything that has recently come to light in the last couple of months, I am learning to appreciate and accept her for who she is.  However, boundaries do need to be set. 

[once removed]

boundaries are a lifestyle, the rules we live by, dictated by our values. the idea of "setting boundaries" can be misleading.

have you read our article here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[hopefulbutlost17]

boundaries are a lifestyle, the rules we live by, dictated by our values. the idea of "setting boundaries" can be misleading.

have you read our article here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Okay, makes absolute sense now. Thank you!

Question: when one reaches out and say they are going through a minor depression and not texting how they used to, being out of it and distracting themselves not to deal with it but it’s not working, what can I do?  My ex just messaged me this a while ago and all I can do is ask her how I can help... I’ve mentioned therapy/counseling the last and was opposed to it.

[once removed]

what can I do? 

you dont have to make everything better 

and as an on again on again partner, you may not be in the best position to.

if she wants to talk, just listen (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy). sometimes thats all anyone wants. if she doesnt, she doesnt. not a lot you can say beyond a warm version of "sorry to hear that".

[hopefulbutlost17]

Agreed... I know I can’t make everything better. Even though I want to, I know there are some things she needs to go through on her own.

[Harri]

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