Finally getting help dealing with manipulative ex-spouse...

[LuckyThree]

I’m new here and after sharing my story with my therapist, I’d like to finally share it with a larger support group.

My ex-wife and I were married for just over 20 years with four children. We’ve since divorced and have remained good friends. Her current husband and I even get along great. In the few years following our divorce, however, she has exhibited extremely controlling and manipulative behavior.

During the past few years, well after our divorce, I have dated a few women, making efforts to move forward and establish a new relationship. I took care to maintain my personal boundary of privacy during the initial time of getting to know my new romantic interest, while still keeping an active role in my kids’ lives. When my ex eventually asks if I’m seeing anyone, I tell her honestly that I am, without going into too much detail, since I’d rather wait until both my romantic interest and I feel that we’re comfortable letting others know that we’re dating. My ex's response was to threaten to not allow the kids to visit me anymore and to demand additional money for monthly child support since they would no longer be visiting me. This was usually followed by a long phone conversation that was mostly a lecture from her about how I wasn’t ready for another relationship, that she felt I need to work on my own issues, and that I would be neglecting the kids in favor of “a piece of ass”. For a while, I was so racked with anxiety and guilt after her confrontation that I would break up with whoever I was dating in an effort to save my visitation with my kids. Of course, once I let my ex know I was no longer dating anyone, everything went back to “normal”. She was friendly and eager for the kids to stay with me during the weekends, but only after reminding me that she was right all along and I shouldn’t be dating anyone.

Previously, my ex and I both had the Find My Friends app enabled on our phones and sharing our locations so we’d be able to find one another while the kids were with either of us, in case of an emergency. Recently, while the kids were with her, I was having lunch by myself downtown when she messaged me to ask “what’s going on downtown” when I never mentioned I was downtown. After this happened on a few other occasions, I told her that from now on, while the kids are not with me, my location will be turned off, and will be turned on again only while the kids are with me. I explained to her that me choosing to not turn on my location while the children are not with me does not constitute "sneaking around" on my part. We each have our own separate lives now and I've done everything I can to respect that boundary for her and that all I ask is that she have the same respect for mine in return. Again, her response was to threaten to not allow the kids to visit anymore and to demand additional money for monthly child support.

There have been other additional issues – her needless hostility and belittling remarks, after which she acts like nothing is wrong – but I think you get the picture.

I recently started seeing a therapist to figure out how to get past all of these feelings of anxious guilt and work to establish some reasonable boundaries against my ex’s manipulation and controlling behavior. I told her (my therapist) what was going on and she said that, from what I described, she felt my ex may be suffering from borderline personality disorder. She recommended I start reading Mason and Kreger’s “Stop Walking On Eggshells” and so far, it seems her estimation of my ex's behavior was absolutely spot on.

After reading about this group, I wanted to introduce myself by sharing my situation with those who I hope can relate and help me shed some light on my own process for overcoming and eventually dealing with someone with BPD.

Thanks!

[kells76]

Hi LuckyThree, glad you found the boards! You've done good work sharing with your T (therapist) about what's going on, and also reaching out for support. Letting counselors and support groups know what's really happening in your life and what you struggle with is a sign of health, so pat yourself on the back for that.

It sounds like for a while, things were going "ok" with your kids' mom -- as long as you did what worked for her. When you started some romantic relationships, that didn't work for her, and she threatened to decrease the time your kids spent with you. Ouch.

You wanted to coparent amicably with her, so you both had the phone tracking app going for emergencies --  but now, even when the kids are with her, she wants to know what you're doing. She probably doesn't see this as crossing any boundaries. Maybe she feels "entitled" to know what you're up to in your private life.

This must be a hard place for you, because it sounds like your kids mean the world to you. Plus, they need YOU! So you tried cutting off romantic relationships to save your relationship with your kids. It "worked", kind of, but things might be intensifying, and your T recommended reading Stop Walking on Eggshells (SWOE), and a lot of pieces are falling into place.

I can really relate to your story. My "dear husband" (DH) has two kids with his ex (undiagnosed with BPD -- uBPD -- but lots of controlling, difficult, blaming behaviors), and even though she got remarried first (to his former best friend, 6 months after the divorce), she definitely lectured us on how we needed to slow down our relationship. Of course, she framed it in terms of how horrible it would be for the kids if we married too soon (cue the eyerolls now).

This group is a good place for you to problem solve, vent, strategize, and learn tools for your growth and parenting skills. These tools can help you throw some light on your process, your thinking, and how to best "manage" a coparenting relationship with someone who has BPD-style behaviors.

Would you be up for telling us more about your kids? How old are they? How have they been doing with all this?

Looking forward to hearing more from you;

kells76

[40days_in_desert]

LuckyThree, I get it... .your anxiety and making decisions about not dating someone based on threats from your ex.

Sounds like traditional “double standard” material. She is remarried and you can’t even date? Also, it looks like control and manipulation are all part of what you’re experiencing. I’ve been there too. It makes perfect sense to me and many others here in this site.
Have you mentioned any of your ex’s behavior and threats to your lawyer? Unless you have an extremely unusual divorce agreement, she doesn’t have the authority to withhold visitation. Maybe a letter from your L would help squash her attempts to control when and how often you see your kids the next time she tries that?

[takingandsending]

Hi LuckyThree.

I wanted to join the others in welcoming you to bpdfamily. Your situation you describe is pretty common for those who have ex-spouses with BPD. It fits the patterns of behavior a pwBPD has.

In sessions with your therapist, you should consider exploring and learning about the FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) that many of us in (and now out) of these relationships operate under without even realizing it. I think the Stop Walking on Eggshells book discusses FOG. In essence, under the onslaught of continual blame shifting, revisionist history (gaslighting) and projection, it's pretty easy to lose your internal compass of what you know about you and start questioning yourself, your actions and your words. Your ex is using these methods of manipulation and control to avoid what she is feeling about herself. It has nothing to do with you or what you are or are not doing. Problem is, as long as you go along with her, she becomes convinced that she is "right", her methods are "working and for the betterment of everyone".

In pwBPD's world, feelings=facts, so what your ex feels "I am really scared if xh gets a new partner because they may replace me as my kids' mom" becomes "Kids will be terrified by xh getting a new partner, and that person is trying to take my place!" Your job is to learn how to ignore the dire threat that her feelings create, and go on with your life, letting her have the consequences of her own thoughts, feelings and actions. To do that, you have to step out of the FOG and start building boundaries. It's hard work. I am not so great at it, myself. But it is a must for having interactions with pwBPD. They need to be clear, consistent and firm.

How old are your kids, and what is your current custody schedule?

[ForeverDad]

Sounds like traditional “double standard” material. She is remarried and you can’t even date?

I agree, you officially no longer have a relationship with her except as the other parent of the children, yet she is setting terms and conditions on you that don't apply to her.  The reality is far different than her perspective, it's her slanted perception of things.  The world according to the Ex.

She may have another impulse too... .Perhaps better described is that she can't abide you marrying and then the kids would have a Replacement Mother.  That surely would terrify a parent with BPD.  You abandoned her (or she abandoned you before you could abandon her) but she can't risk the thought of losing the kids to a replacement mother.

The reality is that you can't live your life on her terms.  As long as you allow her that power over your life then she will feel empowered and enabled to control and dictate.  Have you read Henry Cloud's Boundaries?

Boundaries are for you, not her.  You already know you can't tell her what to do or not do.  You can't force her to do or not do something, your power is in your response.  However, what can and does work (though there are limits) is something like this... .
"If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."

Examples:
If you start blocking me from our kids... .
... .then I will enforce the parenting schedule, in court if that's what it takes.
If you want extra time for ___... .
... .then I may allow it but with a trade for equivalent time for ___.

When done right "if... .then... ." is powerful.  It took me years to figure how to make boundaries such as these.

Oh, and since this would be a change to your behavior pattern, expect her to flame out with extinction bursts in attempts to make you retreat back into prior compliant, appeasing actions.  She may never fully accept that you will run your own life, but in time she ought to realize you're not acquiescing to her demands as before and not push your boundaries as relentlessly.

[Panda39]

Hi Lucky3 

I'd like to join the others and say Welcome to the bpdfamily.

I've pulled more information on Boundaries and FOG.

More on Boundaries... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

More on FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Panda39

[LuckyThree]

Wow! You have no idea how much I appreciate all your responses. I'm so glad I decided to share this with you. Thank you!

As for my kids, they're 24, 21, 17, and 12. 24 lives on his own in a neighboring state, so he isn't caught up in the day-to-day of it. 21 lives with me and 17 and 12 live with my ex (their mom). 21 and 17 are seeing and acknowledging exactly the same controlling and manipulative behavior I'm experiencing. The older three pretty much know what's going on, although they haven't put a (BPD) "name" to it. I don't think my youngest realizes the situation, but I'm sure he's experiencing it on some level. 17 and 21 are with me nearly every weekend, unless their mom and her husband have something planned with them.

As I continue to make my way through "Stop Walking on Eggshells", I'm learning the importance of standing up for myself, to take back control over how I react to her behavior. I'm only about halfway through the book, though, so I haven't gotten to many of the practical methods of dealing with this situation. Also, I'll be sure to check out "Boundaries" and to discuss FOG with my therapist.

Again, this discussion is so refreshingly helpful and I'm grateful to have found it. Thanks!

[takingandsending]

Let us know how it goes with your T. You are absolutely not alone in your experience. Many of us, to some degree, have experienced the weird, confusing display of obsessive control yet continuous devaluation from pwBPD. It's sort of like, if you care so little about me, why are you so intent on managing every aspect of my life?

Don't chase down that rabbit hole. Your xw is acting out in living colors her daily, maybe hourly, fears of being abandoned, not mattering, not being important, not being worthwhile, but she will only act them out on those who are safest - her intimate, personal relationships of children, spouse (or ex-spouse), family and close friends. And the acting out is the manipulation, blame, projection so that she can continue to avoid her fears without ever really tackling them. We all do this to some extent (who likes looking at the things they don't like about themselves?), but pwBPD do this with greater frequency and intensity than the norm ... .and I think with much less self-awareness.

But, ultimately, this is her hill to climb, not yours. Your job is to learn what you can and cannot accept in order to maintain the basis of who you are, of what is important to the values you hold ... .the things that make you you. That's where boundaries are best created. They tend to be simpler, easier to remember, easier to defend in the face of attacks. The more you do this, the more clear you become on what is yours to own, and what you can leave with her to figure out for herself. I recommend that you also look at the Stop Walking on Eggshells Workbook, maybe even more than the book. It has practical exercises for starting to see how FOG may be affecting you and methods to step out of that FOG.

Welcome again to the boards, and keep posting. Lots of members here can help sort out boundaries for specific issues that come up, or how to communicate with your ex.