Recycling - I encouraged it - 2

[I Am Redeemed]

I kept returning to the relationship because I believed (and he also said he believed) that his dysfunction was mostly due to the substance abuse disorder. The disease of alcoholism/addiction is very complicated and the behaviors mimic traits of many other disorders... .BPD, NPD, ASPD... .there is self-centered tendencies, dishonesty, denial, manipulation, trust issues, feelings of not fitting in, avoidance, jealousy, obsessive compulsive thoughts, depression, self pity and victim mentality, blame shifting, vindictiveness... .I know that disorder well, because I have it. I also know that change is possible, because I did it. And I know that change is not easy, and the disorder is very deceptive and it is easy to get off track and lose recovery. It is also possible to fool yourself into thinking you are recovering when you are really just teetering on the brink of the same old behavior and insanity.

I didn't want to give up on him, because I know what it's like to be a person with a severe problem who causes the people around you lots of pain. Some are sicker than others, so they say in AA. The big book of AA also says there are those who have grave emotional and mental disorders, but they can recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

This is the crux of the matter, as far as I am concerned. It took years for me to realize that uBPDh just doesn't have the capacity to be honest. He pretends that he does, and I was fooled by that for a long time, thinking that he really did have a willingness to learn and change, but it was just hard for him.

Now I realize he just learned enough recovery language to give the appearance of trying to get better. He used it to disarm criticism of his behavior and to shield himself from being discovered for the abuser that he is. He used it to manipulate and get his way and keep the relationship going. He used it to gain sympathy and he used it as a loophole to stave off consequences.

He used it to ultimately avoid the truth, which is ironically the reason he will not recover, from that disorder or any other.

Redeemed

[empath]

Level One
        economical dependence
        religion or culture
right thing for the children.

Level Two
        abuse tends to occur periodically
the abuser frequently expresses remorse or guilt
"makeup sex" is good
relationship might be perceived as good enough

For me, almost all of these were true - except the "makeup sex" one. However, we didn't really break up, until a little over 9 months ago. The biggest area that kept me stuck was the economic dependence which h admits was intentional on his part to keep me from "getting away"; there is also the religious teaching that I had to deal with as well.

I was thinking back to my own growth and development over the past several years. I remember creating a lesson for the kids on healthy apologies and kind of outlined what that looks like. I realized that it was more than just saying "sorry". When h says that he's sorry now, I am tempted to agree with him - probably wouldn't be helpful to actually say that out loud.

For a long time, I would look at the "issues" in our marriage as separate problems that could be addressed individually. Nothing seemed to ever get solved - and they were things like h didn't trust me without any reasons. I started really looking for answers after I took a marriage an family counseling class and realized that the normal marriage counseling wouldn't address the issues. Eventually, I stumbled on to BPD, and things made sense.

  it’s like an old computer ... .that is beyond updates, due to the “software” being totally obsolete... .and it is still hooked to a network, this older computer ... .and each time the “system” pushes a software update, th old computer tries and tries and tries to accept th new programs, patches and the new “windows updates” ... .but it is listening in the wrong code thus it’s never able to update, it only spins and spins, and finally freezes ... .and can no longer commucate with its operator ... .it will have to be shut down, and hopefully it’s previois and yet hopelessly outdated operating system may be restored... .until the same exact thing will happen again and again... .which is not sustainable... .

The biggest area that h would have instability is his employment - most of his jobs have lasted around 2 years. As I was thinking through it all, I noticed that when there was a change in the company that he worked for that he didn't initiate, he would often quit. That's how he would deal with change. When he is asked why he has had so many positions (with different companies), he claims it is the industry and spins it by saying that he has so much experience which must be a good thing. Until he shuts down and quits again... . 

they can recover if they have the capacity to be honest

I have a friend, a mental health professional, who said that the only way to heal is to face the truth. It applies for most of the healing professions. My h was forced to face the truth in a really uncomfortable situation. He would remember his actions, knowing they were abusive, and couldn't get away from the memories. He is ashamed of his actions, so he doesn't admit them to others. I believed that secure love with good empathy could help, and it did to some extent until it didn't.

[Cromwell]

The biggest area that h would have instability is his employment - most of his jobs have lasted around 2 years. As I was thinking through it all, I noticed that when there was a change in the company that he worked for that he didn't initiate, he would often quit. That's how he would deal with change. When he is asked why he has had so many positions (with different companies), he claims it is the industry and spins it by saying that he has so much experience which must be a good thing. Until he shuts down and quits again... . 

spins it
Not sure what you mean by 'spins it'. I think he has every right to leave a job and do what he wants everything else kept equal.

That's how he would deal with change.

by leaving? - the same thing I did when the relationship became too sour. Smart move id say in most circumstances.

Is this not just a clash of personal values regarding attitudes to work, rather than an indicator that implies he is dysfunctional in some way?

 I take my hat off to anyone who has the courage to leave a role that they eventually find isnt suitable, it frees up a position for someone who does want it/need it, and yes there can be advantages to experience in changing career. In this era the world of work has changed substantially, not only people moving around the same industry but complete different careers paths.

 2 years is a stretch of time, my own personal record is 4 years running my own business, and anything between 1 day and 1 year elsewhere, but ive never been unemployable or lacked the courage to be assertive in the workplace, move on if it doesnt anymore suit me.

My ex has worked for over a year now in front line, fast food industry, with BPD. She has told me how challenging it is for her - I can emphasise how hard it is, even without a Disorder. I wouldnt last more than 5 minutes. So if she was there for 2 years and decides to work elsewhere, Id actually be more inclined to think (rather than unstable) - how on earth did you actually manage for that long, the length of employment gives me more concern - on the face of it.

if this is
The biggest area that h would have instability is his employment

its maybe worth exploring further to get to the root if this is just a clash of work related values rather than something else.

[empath]

its maybe worth exploring further to get to the root if this is just a clash of work related values rather than something else.

Can you elaborate more on "a clash of work related values" and how that would be different than the expectations in personal relationships?

[Skip]

well if you are a captive audience/willing participant to stick around for this inner-hatred projection exercise. I guess the act of leaving creates a huge problem, where does the projection take place, inwards again.

Is self-awareness the same as self-hatred?

[Cromwell]

Can you elaborate more on "a clash of work related values" and how that would be different than the expectations in personal relationships?

Its not really an issue whether or not work is as important as other issues, its that you pointed it out as his biggest instability.

when you mention he worked for 2 years and left, so far there is not much to seperate him from the average joe in society who does the same which is what stuck out to me as maybe this is more a clash of attitudes and values towards work and normal run of the mill stuff rather than a hallmark of mental illness.

[Cromwell]

Is self-awareness the same as self-hatred?

it can lead the way to it.

but your right to point out my generalisation - not all people will dispense out hurt and lead to feeling self hatred about doing so.

A lot of what my ex displayed was gloating about it - she had 'evolved' from victim to abuser.

and thats giving any credit to all her stories that they were true in the first place, something that nowadays ive became a lot more skeptical and cynical towards.

she claimed to hate herself, who knows if there is even any truth in it, maybe it was just another attention seeking pity ploy.

thanks for reminding me not to have so much benefit of the doubt and take everything on face value Skip.

[empath]

In the recent past situations, there were disciplinary actions that were on the table when he left (before he was fired). I suppose that could be classified as a difference in work values and attitudes but... . The thing about work relationships is that there are consequences to one's actions or inaction at work. It is the most noticeable area of relational instability to outside observers. I'm not saying that anyone who has a similar track record as h is disordered in some way; there are people who don't have longer employment relationships.

This is not the only symptom that he has of BPD; it's broader than that. There is a long- standing pattern of emotional instability that has been noticed by his mental health professionals.  Mental illness isn't limited to one area of a person's functioning, especially if the disorder is on a personality level.

As far as our marriage, we were both committed to our religious teachings and tried to make the best of the situation. So, neither one of us could really break up. That kept me stuck for a long time.

[Red5]

In the recent past situations, there were disciplinary actions that were on the table when he left (before he was fired).

Same scenario with my uBPDw, community college system, new vp came, and uBPDw did not mesh, so there were precieved performance issues, which were born out in the yearly evaluation, effectively an official counseling/probationary period was about to be implemented... .so, uBPDw became incensed... .and “resigned” before she was let go due to refusal to sign the probationary documents in the HR office in the vp’s presence... .and she then was “transferred” via referral request to another county / state CC system... .as her technical acumen was being sought at the next college... .by another vp, who’d been trying to get her there for years... .two towns away... .

The same thing happened a few years later, at her next assignment and same senario, .so, she resigned again rather than be officially counseled and put on probationary period,

But to hear her talk about it now, she of course is a victim of office politics and “clicks”... .she even went back after it all went down, and she claimed after the fact that the reason she resigned was due to her /C/ dx, (History rewritten) and that she claimed that the direct report was going to ”get rid of her” due to her dx... .and so she went back several months later and put in a disability claim after the fact, and basically threatened discrimination... .and it worked, now she is on state disability... .they even gave her ten months of back pay, and a settlement.

To me this is classic BPD behavior, she told me about one of the exchanges with her direct report (vp)... .the BPD said something to the effect, now Khrizstein (not real name)... .you are not understanding what I’m expecting of you, and “there’s that anger again”... .

I’ll neverforget that,

So yeah, pattern of job career loss due to maladaptive behaviors with direct reports... .all female to female,

Red5

[Turkish]

He used it to ultimately avoid the truth, which is ironically the reason he will not recover, from that disorder or any other.

What was the truth you confronted which helped you in your own journey?

[JNChell]

Hey, Red5.

Always trying to "return" the relationship, and home back to the normal operating posture after each and every dysregulation, and BPD rage episode ... .

Yep. I relate to your statement. This eventually exhausted me. Upon reflection, I’ve realized that this is where my own behaviors took a bad turn. Digging a little deeper and stepping aside to look at it, I can look at myself making the decision to stay in this dynamic. I can observe it and see how unhealthy it was for all involved. Especially the kids. It’s hard to look at, but I have to. When I do look at it, as I am now while typing this, I well up with emotion. I feel nostalgia because I miss the woman I met. I feel anger and resentment for allowing myself to be mislead, etc. I feel anger and resentment towards her for not being self aware. The one thing I can’t do is blame her. Not anymore. I’ll condense this statement. If she could, she would but she can’t. I can’t blame her for the things that she did. It’s not her fault that she was so mistreated while being raised. Placing blame and fault on her for that would mean that I’m placing myself above Science and Biology. I’m a blue collar worker.

Red5, you’ve had to make a very hard decision. Your wife hit your S32, and you decided that that was it. I commend you on this btw. You set an immovable boundary. Nobody hits our kids.

There was a period of time, that I gave back as good as I got ... .which was extremely destructive ...

I did this as well. I’m accepting that it was all part of the dance and that I contributed my 50% to it. I have my own stuff to work through which I talk a lot about on the PSI (parent, sibling, in-law) board.

Try to go easy on yourself for getting wrapped up in it. In fact, pat yourself on the back for doing all that you could for trying to keep your family together. I know the struggle and how hard and conflicted it is. You did everything you could. I’ve read your posts on the upper board here and there since I’ve been a member here. You put the work in. Now, it’s time to continue putting the work in for you and S32. I think that you’ll find that it will be much easier for you to parent him outside of the chaos. I don’t know much about autism, but I have to suspect that a calmer environment will benefit him as well.

[JNChell]

Red5, I am as well, but haven’t watched any of it since the final split. It was something that the ex and I shared and related to. It’s a trigger for the time being. I basically don’t watch TV anymore unless it’s a DVD for my boy. To be honest, my ex and I ended up like zombies watching the TV. That’s what we did. It’s been nice not having any cable or programming.