Compelling manipulative people to focus on and change their behaviors

[JNChell]

Dr. George Simon advocates a lot of what you’re exploring here. His theories and treatment practices focus on compelling manipulative people to focus on and change their behaviors. Another thing that really got my attention was the aspect of placing a greater divide between BPD and other Cluster B disorders. I understand what you mean. In your opinion, how does this play out when comorbidity is factored in? I only ask because this makes me think of S4’s mom. I believe that she is subclinical with BPD/NPD traits. I describe the behavior as highly narcissistic borderline. I agree with you. The behaviors look very similar, but the motivation can be quite different. BPD is more susceptible to positive change through therapy than NPD or psychopathy. Interesting stuff.

I’m clinically diagnosed with C-PTSD. You’re right, there is a lot of overlap with BPD. From what I’ve gathered it’s actually being argued that the two should be combined as the same diagnosis. I guess that will play out how it does. I was not yet diagnosed with my condition when I first showed up to this support group, and can admit that I was pretty high on the spectrum. Looking back, I can see that I’ve been slowly sliding down the scale. The symptoms are much milder now. I went through some pretty intense periods and I’m grateful to still be around. Being able to look back on those times has instilled a great deal of empathy and compassion in me for the folks that we discuss here daily. I don’t and will not excuse the behaviors just as I don’t and will not excuse my bad behaviors, but I understand. I’ve also made a conscious choice to hold myself accountable and do the work. I’m proud of myself for that.

Dr. Simon also talks about how he has seen meaningful change happen with manipulative people. He states that he’s only seen it happen when the person identifies a healthy level/sense of shame within themselves. In his experience and estimation, guilt isn’t enough. Toxic shame doesn’t work either. To keep within the spirit of the thread title, he also believes that emotional manipulators know exactly what they’re doing. My T agrees.

I’m glad you brought up these subjects.  

[empath]

Hi JNChell. It's a fascinating area to study - I'm glad that there are more people who are really looking at trauma and how it affects people. From my personal experience with PTSD and relationships with others, the emotions can be overwhelming and just functioning normally takes so much of a person's energy that it's hard for them to think of anyone else as a separate person. I think that can look like Narcissism to other people.

Dr. Bessel van der Kolk is the one that really connected the trauma piece for me. I have some nieces and nephews who were adopted from foster care, and I've been very interested in kids who have experienced abuse for even longer than that. My relationship with my h felt a lot like it would with a foster kid.

I know that my h does know that he manipulates people.

[JNChell]

Van der Kolk is awesome. Pardon my language. He’s a badass on the subject of trauma. He sees it.

You have experience with PTSD? Are you saying that you struggle with it?

[empath]

He is awesome.

Yes, I do have experience with PTSD. I had a traumatic experience of a natural disaster when I was very young and had flashbacks during my childhood along with anxiety. Once I was a parent, I knew that I needed to be present for my child, so I found something that worked to calm myself. I don't experience much from it now - time, distance, maturity, and knowledge have helped. I can sometimes feel a bit numb or anxious; I think it stays around. It's not such a huge part of my life anymore.

[JNChell]

I’m glad to hear that it’s not affecting you daily anymore. I’m sorry that you had to experience what caused it and the symptoms. PTSD is tough stuff. I’m truly glad that you’re feeling well outside of it.

Becoming a parent changes everything, doesn’t it? I might be in awful shape right now if I hadn’t become a father. It’s something to behold and think about.

You know, I asked a fellow member tonight if the feelings ever dissipate for good. It sounds like they will always linger. At least a bit.

[crushedagain]

To keep within the spirit of the thread title, he also believes that emotional manipulators know exactly what they’re doing.

I remember a time when my ex was in one of her meltdowns and the tears were flowing. Then, on a dime, she turned the tears off and got up and walked out of the room, and the look in her eyes was one of extreme contempt for me. It felt creepy to me, like she had been doing it on purpose.

[JNChell]

Hey there, crushedagain. Those uncertain feelings of what we witnessed are so confusing. I remember feeling “did I really just witness that?”. I eventually began to feel very off balance, not grounded with myself and of center. Did you feel anything similar after prolonged exposure to those types of behaviors?

[MeandThee29]

Interesting thread. Mine has a good amount of NPD in there, so this is colored by that.

At one point I actually wrote out all of the distorted thinking. Everything from "you are responsible for my happiness" to how he wanted the family house sold but never considered that the three of us would need a place to live afterwards. And blaming me for two separations and a suicide attempt. In our case, did I pack up the car and leave? No, he packed the car and left. Did I buy what was needed to commit suicide and implement the plan? No, he did all of that. And he demanded blind respect no matter how badly he treated me.

It was a transition period for me to see that certainly I contributed to the marital problems, but he did so much that was just plain WRONG. Actions and conversations that loving, balanced people just don't do.

I agree with JNChell though that BPD/NPD is a horse of a slightly different color. I also was diagnosed with C-PTSD, and it took over a year to really get him out of my head and rebuild my thinking. One of my early appointments with a life coach I saw last year focused on healthy thinking versus what she called "stink'n thinking." It was a bit shocking to work through.

 

[Cromwell]

How to get to the point where the person feels any shame is the sticking point, if getting to shame is the precursor to wishing to change behaviour.

Id like to think that by leaving my ex, it should signify something to her. Yet in reality, I am just part of the graveyard of a multitude of former partners that discarded her, from what I ever heard they were all in the wrong, im pretty sure that extends to me the same. There is no need to feel shame when she can just find the next enabler and reinvent herself into a new persona, re-write history if needs be.

As long as the emotional manipulation works, as it historically has done, why bother changing - it has became a ritualised and habitualised pattern of behaviour that is hard wired in. What others class as emotonal manipulation/undesirable behaviour (being subjected to it) - my ex probably doesnt choose to view it the same way. She gave me the impression that in her world view, everyone was like this so it was validated that she would do it - first - and be better at doing so.

I have no idea what it would take to begin to change that level of thinking, at least not until the game she plays starts to run out of luck and there is no one there who will validate her as a good person, like I once did.

he also believes that emotional manipulators know exactly what they’re doing. My T agrees. (JNChell)

I fully agree too JNChell, and have heard the same advice from a psychiatric nurse. Being an apologist for this sort of stuff is unhelpful for them getting 'better'. It is a sign of weakness regardless of good intent. Professional help that understands this and can deal with it with a balance of being firm, but not too firm that it drives them away - it is a hugely difficult balancing act to achieve, I suspect.

[JNChell]

Hey, Cromwell, glad to see you again.

it has became a ritualised and habitualised pattern of behaviour that is hard wired in.

Perhaps the “hard wired in” part is the most notable. Most of this stuff comes from very adverse childhoods. I’m speaking objectively when I say that it’s deep seeded. Deeply rooted, actually. Some of us are so deeply rooted that we’re not movable. Some of us are ents, generally speaking in the spirit of this community. It’s very broad on how all of this abuse, anger and dysfunction plays out in real time. Speaking of hardwiring, I was at the grocery store with S4 last weekend. There was a mother there with three young kids. She had a ring so I assume that she is married. I guess that doesn’t really matter, I’m just trying to paint the picture. She was short in her words and rather verbally hostile with the kids. I began to observe the interaction. At one point she grabbed, what I would say was roughly a 2 year old girl, by the coat and said “get out of the way, dumb ”. My hackles went up. As to not alarm her children or mine, I looked her in the eye, turned my cart around and said “chill out” loud enough for her to hear. I wonder what those kids are going through behind closed doors and what is being hard wired into their young minds.

I don’t agree or disagree with the theory that manipulators always know what they’re doing. The spectrum makes sense to me. I think that it’s possible that both can occur.

[Notwendy]

This thread made me realize the possible connection between my parents.

I've seen a few pairings of C-PTSD/BPD partners. I don't think they are the same condition, but I think there is some overlap and it may be one reason both people tend to play into the dysfunction between them.

I agree with the concept that something about us attracts the people we pair up with and vice versa- and how there could possibly be similarities without the same behaviors.

I don't have C-PTSD but I do have a bit of PTSD from growing up in fear of BPD mom and my father's anger. My H's behavior can trigger those fears. I also trigger his own childhood issues in his FOO. When someone grows up in a family with disorder, we adapt and take those adaptations with us. Walking on eggshells was a "norm" for me growing up.

I could not figure out the connection between my parents. I know my mother's FOO has several NPD members and also I suspect she was abused as a child although I have no proof. My father's FOO didn't have a lot of dysfunction from what I know- so I couldn't figure that out. However, I did learn at one point that my father may have had PTSD from his military experiences- before he met my mother and that may have led to his co-dependent behavior with my BPD mother. I recall as a teen that if I was upset about something, it would trigger him. He didn't get violent but he just couldn't stand it. He couldn't tolerate my mother being upset- jumped up to fix it. With me, he got angry- just wanted to stop it.

As far as manipulative people- I think they do know what they are doing. I think manipulation gives them a sense of power and bolsters their poor self esteem. They may not want to do it, but I think when they feel a sense of distress - they give in to the need to do it, like a compulsion. I know my BPD mother gets a sense of enjoyment from it, but I also think she knows it is wrong and feels a sense of shame afterwards, kind of like someone would do if they were binge drinking.

[JNChell]

Hi, Notwendy. I relate to a lot of what you’ve said. There is quite a lot of overlap between BPD and C-PTSD. The latter is on a spectrum as well and I was high on the spectrum at one point. Not so much now.

I’m curious about what you’ve observed in the partners with these conditions. What did you notice in the dynamics?

I don't have C-PTSD but I do have a bit of PTSD from growing up in fear of BPD mom and my father's anger.

Children should not have to grow up in these environments. I’m sorry that you had to as well. I suspect that this community is going to see increased traffic in the next 5 years. That’s just a random thought. Back on point, from what I’ve understood so far, PTSD is trauma that is experienced from one, or a couple events that are close together time wise and fairly similar. C-PTSD is devoloped by prolonged trauma over a substantial amount of time. Layers of it. On paper, I’m diagnosed with PTSD because C-PTSD hasn’t been approved for the DSM, but my T is treating me for C-PTSD. She’s great. There’s also argument among the top and deciding clinicians that the two dx’s should be combined as one. I agree with you that they are similar, but not the same. There are subtle, but substantial differences.

I, like you, couldn’t figure out why my parents were together. They were horrible together. Grandma, on my mom’s side was a cold woman. Grandpa wore a halo. Grandma quickly deteriorated after grandpa died. From what I’ve gathered, after mom married dad grandma didn’t speak to my mom for a year. Grandpa would sneak away to see my mom. I don’t know how much of this true because it was said to me by my dad. I think that he lived in his head. He was a very childish NPD that was capable of terrifying things.

Dad’s side of the family was estranged due to my dad. I didn’t know them growing up, but it’s apparent now that he had control of his mom (my grandma). He was a golden child breed of narcissism. His sister was a scapegoat and the sweetest woman that you could ever meet. They’re not alive, so I’ll say her name. Aunt JoAnne.

I don’t condone, but I get your dad’s behavior. I’m not defending him and I’m not excusing his behaviors. He should’ve gotten help for them. I imagine that situations are hard on a battlefield or patrolling for one. Being pushed into one by a higher power. Maybe, in his brain, his senses were heightened at all times. He didn’t have help available when he came back home to lower his senses.

I’ve gone on long enough. I like your post.

[gotbushels]

Interesting discussion.   

Neat thread title. Compelling as a verb tense or adjective could be a nod from your subconscious that you're on the right track--especially with regard to your other thread about involuntary caretaking. I'll borrow the sunglasses for that one.   

[JNChell]

GB, care to elaborate?

[Notwendy]

JNChell- it's only recent times that we are so open about mental illness. My parents didn't have access to the information/treatment we have today and without internet. He was a high functioning man and he was the "normal" of my parents to me. I saw my mother as the problem. It wasn't until I began to look at my own co-dependent behavior and saw his role in their relationship. I think he did the best he could do with a difficult situation.

Yes, it was a tough situation to grow up in, and like many kids who grew up with this, I didn't think it was "that bad" until I became a parent and realized that some of the things I experienced I would not ever wish on a child.

There are a couple of partners of pwBPD on this board with CPTSD. Their partner's rages and threats trigger their PTSD and they react from that. It kind of sets up a cycle of enabling the behaviors that scare them but it alleviates the fear temporarily and that's what they seek when PTSD is triggered as it is so hard for them.

I could see myself in this- I feared my H's anger ( as I feared my parents' anger ) and so when he raged or gave me the ST, I went into full appeasement mode to do things that made him happy. Of course that was a positive reinforcement for him raging/ST. Why should he stop when it got him so many perks. I had to get a handle on my fears to stop my own enabling behavior.

My father did this continuously over several decades, and so my BPD mother controlled all of us with her moods. She would even threaten to cause a big scene if we didn't comply- and if she did- it was terrifying- trashing the house, yelling, screaming. If she was upset, Dad stepped in as her rescuer. Basically the #1 rule in the house was make mother happy no matter what, which was impossible but we tried. I couldn't understand how he put up with it or why he didn't say no to her then but I understand it better now.

  

[gotbushels]

Thanks for sharing Notwendy.

My parents didn't have access to the information/treatment we have today and without internet.

It's easy to forget that we have this information now--information was much harder to find last time.

GB, care to elaborate?

Sure-.

"Compelling manipulative people to focus on and change their behaviors"

Compelling as the verb tense would be to force or oblige the manipulative people to focus on and change their behaviours. As in, Alex forced or obliged Brenda to focus on and change her behaviour. This would be the meaning you're consciously interested in.

Compelling as an adjective would be naming manipulative people with the attribute of evoking interest in a powerful irresistible way. The adjective is applied upon manipulative people. As in, Alex's interest in Brenda was evoked in a powerful irresistible way for him to to focus on and change her behaviour. This would be the meaning you could be subconsciously interested in. It then leads to the question, why is Alex's interest evoked powerfully and irresistibly such that it compels him to focus on and change Brenda? Or, why is JNChell compelled to caretake the BP despite his want to not caretake?