Back on the board after a year or so...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

September 2017 the kids and I returned from a Church picnic to find BPD/bipolar dx wife had moved out without telling us. BPD/bipolar was really bad at the time.

After several months of her blowing up my phone with text and calls on a daily basis, I had enough and stopped responding to anything that was not business (kids or finance). That resulted in her coming over unannounced once or twice a week and demanding certain pieces of property. "That's my (picture, candle, chair, etc.) and I want it!" I would gladly give it to her, she would rage and throw a fit, then leave without it.

December 2018 I sent her divorce papers as a Christmas present. As one can imagine, this did not go over too well. She contested and insisted she wanted to fix things. I said no, because I did not think she would ever change.  

Over the last year she has made significant progress and, for lack of a better description, grew the hell up. I put the divorce on hold and she moved back a few months ago.

The only issue we are dealing with right now is unbelievable passive-aggressive behavior. I decided I have nothing to lose and I call her on it. She typically gets mad, but later admits it was PA and ... believe it or not from a pwBPD... acknowledges the PA behavior and apologizes.

Here we are going on week 12 since she moved back and things are going fairly well. The things I am doing different:
1. Immediately holding her accountable for bad behavior.
2. Taking a "Nothing to lose" attitude. The fear that I will say I don't care if she leaves again or that a divorce is fine with me is driving a different behavior pattern.

So, going to give it through the end of the year and see if it continues in the right direction.

One thing that I have noticed. She has a breakdown every month right around the same time. anyone else ever notice that with a pwBPD?

[Cole]

September 2017 the kids and I returned from a Church picnic to find BPD/bipolar dx wife had moved out without telling us. BPD/bipolar was really bad at the time.

After several months of her blowing up my phone with text and calls on a daily basis, I had enough and stopped responding to anything that was not business (kids or finance). That resulted in her coming over unannounced once or twice a week and demanding certain pieces of property. "That's my (picture, candle, chair, etc.) and I want it!" I would gladly give it to her, she would rage and throw a fit, then leave without it.

December 2018 I sent her divorce papers as a Christmas present. As one can imagine, this did not go over too well. She contested and insisted she wanted to fix things. I said no, because I did not think she would ever change.  

Over the last year she has made significant progress and, for lack of a better description, grew the hell up. I put the divorce on hold and she moved back a few months ago.

The only issue we are dealing with right now is unbelievable passive-aggressive behavior. I decided I have nothing to lose and I call her on it. She typically gets mad, but later admits it was PA and ... believe it or not from a pwBPD... acknowledges the PA behavior and apologizes.

Here we are going on week 12 since she moved back and things are going fairly well. The things I am doing different:
1. Immediately holding her accountable for bad behavior.
2. Taking a "Nothing to lose" attitude. The fear that I will say I don't care if she leaves again or that a divorce is fine with me is driving a different behavior pattern.

So, going to give it through the end of the year and see if it continues in the right direction.

One thing that I have noticed. She has a breakdown every month right around the same time. anyone else ever notice that with a pwBPD?

[Cat Familiar]

Welcome back, Cole. You've been through a lot, but it sounds like you feel a lot more comfortable now and that your wife is responding well to your boundaries.

Do you think her monthly breakdown could be related to hormones?

[Cole]

Thank you, Cat Familiar. Yes, she has put me through a lot. I continue to be very skeptical that this is going to work out, but I am giving it one last chance.

As expected, she was not able to make it on her own. She could not maintain a small apartment without it turning into a heap of clutter, she could not figure out how to budget or pay bills, and she would call me at all hours of the night because she was scared to get out of bed to use the restroom.
I know she feels utterly defeated in accepting that she is not able to care for herself, but I am not bringing it up to her or saying, "I told you so". On the other hand, I will not let that affect my decision to file for divorce and call it quits if things go downhill again.

I absolutely believe the "terrible 20th" as the kids call it is tied to hormones. She has said numerous times lately that many of our issues are because of her MI and she also thinks that hormones are part of the issue. She is seeing her GYN about it next week.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s great that she’s taking responsibility for her behavior and will be getting checked out by her doc. Biochemistry can certainly account for some irrational behavior, perhaps a significant part of her issues.

Good for you that you are giving the relationship another shot, but are willing to pull the plug should things revert to being unacceptable.

[an0ught]

Hi Cole

Over the last year she has made significant progress and, for lack of a better description, grew the hell up.

 That is also how I perceived the changes in my wife. It was really a learning process of an adult stuck in her teens (with all the power and responsibilities of an adult). It takes time.

The only issue we are dealing with right now is unbelievable passive-aggressive behavior. I decided I have nothing to lose and I call her on it. She typically gets mad, but later admits it was PA and ... believe it or not from a pwBPD... acknowledges the PA behavior and apologizes.

There is no point in blaming but there is no point in sugarcoating things either.

Here we are going on week 12 since she moved back and things are going fairly well. The things I am doing different:
1. Immediately holding her accountable for bad behavior.
2. Taking a "Nothing to lose" attitude. The fear that I will say I don't care if she leaves again or that a divorce is fine with me is driving a different behavior pattern.

I'm often thinking of the Billy Joel lyrics, there is so much BPD type behavior and insight in them:

Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard
And mostly what I need from you

One thing that I have noticed. She has a breakdown every month right around the same time. anyone else ever notice that with a pwBPD?

Hormones or financial distress. Figure out the driver, validate (so she knows you know and jump start her on self soothing) and don't engage. Boundaries to protect kids and yourself.

[teapay]

You're definitely on the right track in how you've handled this in the last year and now, your 1 and 2.  What you are seeing mirrors my experience with my wife.  Hopefully, you could pressure her to get into treatment such as DBT or IFS for her own good.  My wife has done better with those.

[Cole]

You're definitely on the right track in how you've handled this in the last year and now, your 1 and 2.  What you are seeing mirrors my experience with my wife.  Hopefully, you could pressure her to get into treatment such as DBT or IFS for her own good.  My wife has done better with those.

She has had many, many counselors over the years. I have seen a few myself with her in MC and one on my own. She is quite dubious of them; I am, as well.

Our experience is that they tell you what you want to hear to hook you on coming back next week to be told what you want to hear again, like a drug dealer. They don't seem interested in healing as much as they are a steady income from a life-long patient. She has never made any progress, even with one she saw for 3 years. W stopped seeing her when she realized her last appointment was no different than her first.

The one I saw briefly told me on my second visit that I should file for divorce and gave me the name of a few divorce attorney friends of his. Really?

This is not a condemnation of the entire industry. It is just our experience.  

The most progress she has seen has been over the past year with me setting and holding very strong boundaries. Holding her accountable for her actions and not letting her push the blame onto others has forced her to look inside herself and accept that responsibility.

[Cole]

...but are willing to pull the plug should things revert to being unacceptable.

There is the operative part. And it is also that she KNOWS I am willing to pull the plug if it does.

I tried showing her I love her. I tried pursuing her to win her back. I tried extreme validation and all the other tools we are supposed to use with no positive effect.

So, I tried my own method. I consistently delivered the messages:

1. I am not going to listen to the same sob stories over and over. I would hang up or walk away. This resulted in extreme rage and accusations that I don't love her... at first. The reactions slowly became more controlled and now the behavior has almost ceased. You have to power through the extinction bursts or it will all be in vain!

2. I am not going to repeatedly be told about anything I have ever done wrong, whether real or perceived. The result? See #1.

3. I love you, but you are not worth the aggravation caused by your behavior. This was the most difficult. In typical BPD fashion, refusing to accept her behavior or allow her to blame her behavior on someone else was seen as rejection. My follow-up message was, "I am not rejecting you. I am rejecting your behavior." This took the longest to deliver.

4. I am well educated, well employed, and a nice guy. You are not the only woman out there and I am ready to move on if you don't want to change the way you treat me and the kids. She called me on this one but freaked out when I kept getting calls from Sarah. (Sarah is a business contact who is married, lives on the other side of the country, and is 20 years older than me. All calls were business. But I let W think what she wanted.)

So, I guess it was really about setting boundaries around what I will accept rather than around her behavior.

[teapay]

I won't fault you for condemning the whole industry.  I found the majority of counselors dishonest and unethical scum, many being mentally ill themselves.  In my experience i saw no value over common sense.  Probably alot less value.  I don't deal with them, but I don't mind if my wife does and wants to pay for them.  It doesnt effect me.

Love your 1 through 4.  Those points put you and your welfare first, so you are best able to handle whatever may come. So important!  That will also greatly benefit your kids and ironically your wife who seems to be dependent on your beneficence.

Lots of folks on this site would benefit from listening to you.  You're in a good spot.  Happy for you.  Take care.

[AskingWhy]

I absolutely believe the "terrible 20th" as the kids call it is tied to hormones. She has said numerous times lately that many of our issues are because of her MI and she also thinks that hormones are part of the issue. She is seeing her GYN about it next week.

Cole, do you think she may have other hormonal issues that are unaddressed?  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=122720.0

On the issues of boundaries, my uBPD H would rage over the smallest things, split me black and his adult children white, break things (furniture, crockery, punch holes in walls, etc.), and threaten divorce.  When H dysregulates now, I make sure grandchildren and pets are in a safe place (away from splintered wood, broken glass, spill liquids, etc.) and just leave H to clean up his mess.  When the divorce threats come, I do not respond, I simply say, "If that is what you want.  We live in a no-fault state."  (His X W was likely uNPD, and found a lover and divorced him, taking all of the children.)  Not responding really takes the wind out his sails.  No drama means the argument he wants does not even start.

[formflier]

Hey Cole.

I'm glad to hear from you again and learn that there has been some "growing up" with your pwBPD.

I'll try to come back to your story and catch up more...sometime later today.

I'm interested in turning points.  There is usually a lot to learn from those.

What did you learn from filing for divorce AND from her reaction to it?  Perhaps also your reaction to her reaction.

What was it in your life that lead you to take the step of actually filing?

Fast forward to the point where your wife is growing up.  Then there is a decision for her to move back in.

Can you walk us through how you worked that out?

Maybe start thinking about...where you want to be in a year?  Where do you want your relationship to be in a year?

Good stuff...looking forward to your answers.

FF

[Fian]

It sounds like you are on the pull side of the push/pull dynamic.  You are pushing away and she is trying to pull you back.  It seems to be working.  A question I have for the experienced members on the board.  Can you consistently live on one side of the dynamic?  What happens long term?

[formflier]

Solid question:

I am deliberate to try and operate on  the "slight pull" side of things

So...she gives me a "push" of on a 1-10 scale of a 6 and I'll give her a "push" back of a 3.  I always try to be between her emotional state and "neutral".

Same thing if she gives me a pull signal...I'll cut it in half and then give it back to her.

Once things calm down to where we are each giving each other 1s and 2s either direction I then try to remain "aloof" or "nonchalant"...almost "take it or leave it".

So in practice..I'll express interest or availability in going on a date, snuggling with her in bed or any other such things...but then "back away" by leaving it up to her..that "I'm fine either way".

This, coupled with NOT being part of flying monkeys or other dysfunction leaves her a choice.  She can act up and be alone or she can "pull" me towards her and have attention.

She usually picks having attention.

This results in a much calmer (relatively) relationship.  However...what do I do when I really want to be close.  Sucks, because when I get "out front" and "pull" on her...she will generally resist or go along with it for a day and then feel "engulfed" and push away.

Plus...with big turning points...it can take time to settle down.

Such as now...when just got back from a wonderful vacation...and she is all over the place. This morning I was conscious about giving "push" signals that were between her and neutral...but I really wanted her to be quiet and just go to work.  I'm still tired from vacation.


FF

[Cole]

It sounds like you are on the pull side of the push/pull dynamic.  You are pushing away and she is trying to pull you back.  It seems to be working.  A question I have for the experienced members on the board.  Can you consistently live on one side of the dynamic?  What happens long term?

I am neither trying to push nor pull. Any pulling I do is passive; just a statement of fact that this is how it is going to be. If she perceives that as pull or reacts to it as such that is on her, I do not allow it to change my behavior.

[Cole]

...
This, coupled with NOT being part of flying monkeys or other dysfunction leaves her a choice.  She can act up and be alone or she can "pull" me towards her and have attention.
...

FF

Excellent course of action. You are not pushing or pulling. You are simply holding a boundary and letting her behavior dictate what she gets in return, making it her responsibility to self regulate.

[formflier]

I would add to this that you want to make sure there is an "obvious door open" for her to do healthy things with you.  I certainly want you insisting or pestering her to do it...just that if she cares to see...it's there.  

FF