Co-Parenting: When Angry, D6 Tells Us She Wants To Kill Herself

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

She's started saying this at both homes. At first her mom inducated that I was to blame,  but she's backed off.

D was always the steadfast child, S9 with asperger's is the people pleaser.  Isn't SI, but she keeps responding like this in the moment.

My Ex suggested we contact her T who did TFCBT with her three years ago. Both of us may be at a loss with validation.  After I talked to D Thursday night,  her mom told me today that she did it to her this weekend. It usually involves her doing something wrong, hurting her brother, collapsing in anger and maybe shame, followed by us talking to her. "LEAVE ME ALONE!" She told her mom this weekend,  same as she told me Thursday. Can't wait for puberty and hormones in 3 to 4 years... .joy  

[Turkish]

She's started saying this at both homes. At first her mom inducated that I was to blame,  but she's backed off.

D was always the steadfast child, S9 with asperger's is the people pleaser.  Isn't SI, but she keeps responding like this in the moment.

My Ex suggested we contact her T who did TFCBT with her three years ago. Both of us may be at a loss with validation.  After I talked to D Thursday night,  her mom told me today that she did it to her this weekend. It usually involves her doing something wrong, hurting her brother, collapsing in anger and maybe shame, followed by us talking to her. "LEAVE ME ALONE!" She told her mom this weekend,  same as she told me Thursday. Can't wait for puberty and hormones in 3 to 4 years... .joy  

[GaGrl]

Do you have any indication of what D6 years when your Ex is upset and in crisis?

[Turkish]

I don't feel it has anything to do with her mom at this point.  D started this with me,  and then my ex commented about it,  concerned. I really don't view that D is depressed.  She told me she's said that when she was angry at me and S9. It usually results because she gets aggressive and hurts her brother. I comment upon it, she says that. My ex Told me she said the same thing after unintentionally (supposedly) hurting him on Saturday. 

[Harri]

What does she hear around her grandmother?  sorry, not harping, at least not intentionally, just trying to rule things out.   

[kells76]

That's hard to hear from a kid, even though you probably know she heard the phrase somewhere and didn't come up with it herself.

I can picture feeling at a loss for how to "validate".

Probably not a bad idea to do a little detective work (i.e. Harri's question) while maybe also making arrangements to see a T again. Remind me if you see a T? Can you pick T's brain about what T might do in that situation: "Look, when D6 gets angry and ashamed, she says she'll kill herself. She does this at both houses. I have no idea what to validate here and I'm getting to the end of my resources... .what would you do if your kid was doing this?"

I don't know how I would "work this in" to a conversation w/ D6, but I wonder how she'd respond if you asked her "So what do people do after they say that?" or something, to get more of a sense of where it's coming from or what she understands it to mean.

Really sorry it's amped up. 6-10 were our hardest years. Honestly SD12 is doing a lot better even with hormones, so it's not all downhill.

[worriedStepmom]

My son started using  similar language ("I want to die"/"I shouldn't be here"/etc) at around 6 or 7, generally when he was ashamed of himself.  Shame also could cause him to shut down and hide, sometimes for hours.  This happened consistently when he had done something wrong, and then he also started using that language when he was angry or upset about having to do something he didn't want to do.  He had no intention of actually hurting himself, so for a few months his dad and I tried validation and reassurance.  It didn't help.   

I brought it up with his pediatrician.  My son told her that he was sad all the time, but he thought that was normal.   He also actually thought the world would be better without him in it (poor self-esteem).  I immediately found him a therapist. 

Over the next year, he got better - he stopped saying that he wanted to die and stopped "joking" about killing things when he was angry.  He seemed happier, but muted, and we thought that was just how his personality was developing.  However, shortly after he turned 9 he started having violent tantrums occasionally.

A psychiatrist finally diagnosed him as having severe anxiety.  He's been on medication for the last three months and there is an amazing change in him.  I had not realized how much he had changed since the behaviors came on so slowly, but the meds changed his behaviors so fast that the difference is striking.  I have my old happy kid back now.  With the meds, the T is able to get my son to open up about topics that used to cause him to freeze, and we now have a long-term therapy plan and hope that he will be able to manage this without meds eventually. 

I know of a few other children who started using this language at 6/7 when they were experiencing depression or anxiety.  Other parents say their kid may use that language once or twice, but when they are informed how serious it is, the kids stop saying it.  Those who continued to use it have needed intervention.

Please get your daughter help ASAP.  I regret very much that my son struggled for two years before we figured out how much he was hurting.

[Turkish]

The therapist suggested that this is likely attention seeking language.  She sent me resources and left it up to us if we wanted to schedule a session to talk about ways to deal with it. 

[JNChell]

That has to be hard to hear. Unsettling. T told you that this is likely attention seeking behavior. Was there anything said beyond that? Any advice beyond being sent resources?

You know your ex. Your ex knows her mom. I’m not trying to harp either, but this sounds like it’s learned. Especially from such a young child. Children don’t come up with comments like that on their own.

[worriedStepmom]

Children don’t come up with comments like that on their own.

Sometimes, they do.  I know for my kid, no one in either of his houses ever uses that kind of language.  My ex's sister committed suicide in her teens, so it was never a casual or joking thing.

It's certainly possible that a child hears this kind of language from a parent or other trusted person and thinks it's an okay way to express themselves without meaning it.  It's also possible that they are simply expressing their feelings.

Turkish, did the counselor talk to your daughter or just get an overview from you and/or your ex?

[Turkish]

 The T gave us the option of making an appointment for us as parents to discuss strategies.  I'm going to talk to mommy about it. 

[Turkish]

D6 is now D7.  

Her talk in this manner kind of died down the last month. 

Had a T appointment today. It took a while since she hadn't been seen in over 2 years. I had to do a phone interview.

Mom and I went in two weeks ago, just us.  Mom wanted it because she wanted validation that nothing was going on that our daughter might not have been telling her.  She admitted that she asked our daughter if "everything was ok ay daddy's house." She's not supposed to quiz the kids specifically. It's even in the Order. We decided to make a  appointment for D.

I brought her in by myself since mom had to work. The T drew out rue underlying emotion of "I want to kill myself!" which is "I want to be alone!" I never thought of trying to drill down. The T also told her that such talk worries mommy and daddy and they went through and wrote down emotional regulation strategies that D7 could do alternatively. Otherwise, D felt she was doing ok and was happy overall.

The therapist is resigning from Kaiser (our HMO) to join a private practice. Too bad but I wished her well.  She is good.  

The other parent questioning is interesting. Dr. Craig Childress talks about how it can turn pathological here:  3. Understand the Psychological Seduction of the Pathogenic Parent for the Child

I think I'm ok for now,  but I wonder as D approaches teenhood given her mother's diagnosed anxiety and depression.  

[Harri]

I am so glad you guys were able to get to the bottom of this and that the T worked with her on strategies for coping.   

Interesting you mention that video!    I listened to it earlier and while it is aobut Parental Alienation, there is a part there that explains how the alienating parent can so subtly prompt the child to take on the role of victim with questions like your ex asked.  And it is not just the questions but the body language and tone of voice that add together to reinforce the victim stance in the child who naturally wants to please the parent.

The video is about a half hour but worth watching.  It also made me question the way I validate people when talking here... but that is a while 'nother potato!

Anyway, thanks for the update Turkish!  Such great news and excellent that you followed through.   Can you meet with the T again to learn strategies you can use to help your D with coping skills now so that she can get through the teen years better equipped given her moms anxieties?

[Turkish]

Thanks for sending me the link. 

The T is retired, going into private practice. We won't see her again. I thought about giving her my card,  but given that mommy owes me $2500 I'll never see any further $ would be on me.  Interestingly, I saw her subtle validating facial expressions when she commended us for Co-Parenting. This is the T my ex admitted to when she punched her husband in front of the kids and the T said she had to report it, but didn't upon consultation with colleagues. "She took responsibility, both kids were in therapy, and both parents were taking parenting classes." I still think if as a man if I had punched my wife in front of the kids I wouldn't have been given that grace. But the past is past.

[livednlearned]

The other parent questioning is interesting. Dr. Craig Childress talks about how it can turn pathological here:  3. Understand the Psychological Seduction of the Pathogenic Parent for the Child

That's a really good video, Turkish. Thanks for posting it here.

About the validation piece. When my then S8 said he wanted to die, my T recommended I validate by saying, "You must be feeling some really difficult feelings to say that." Then depending on the situation, invite him to cuddle (soothe) or ask him he wanted to talk about what might be causing those feelings.

[Turkish]

Good advice lnl, seems obvious now.  Given all of my time here I should have thought along those lines  

D7 will often do that.  Express anger, then I end up holding or cuddling her,  she sometimes forcing out breaths heavily.

With S9, I've learned to leave him alone.  He tells me,  "don't touch me! Go away!" It took me a while to let him be rather than trying to calm him during an ASD tantrum.

[JNChell]

How intense do your son’s tantrums become? I only ask because S4 is becoming aggressive. Punching and kicking. Not just me, but punching objects. The video is good. Happy Birthday to D7!