Lying triggers my c-PTSD

[HappyChappy]

This topic warrants its own discussion and was split from here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335734.0

Because of our upbringings we are probably better than most at picking up if someone is lying to us. Because I’ve spent most my career now in management, I get sales reps, staff and customers all trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Usualy all about money. So a customer will typically complain about something you can’t evidence to get a discount.

I use to ignore it, but now it triggers my CPTSD. I had this today, with a supplier lying about why it too so long. I very rarely lose my composure at work, but on this occasion I just ripped apart every feeble excuse they laid at my door (as I was ready to change suppliers) and the woman caved and admitted to the real reasons. I calmed down immediately this company dropped it’s pretence. She offered me a credit of £1K so it was worth pushing in this case. But I’m just not the type to lose my cool, it doesn’t feel right to me. Is that because our BPD would belt us black and blue if we got aggressive ? I have used controlled anger, as a defence to someone attacking me, but that’s not losing it, that’s planned.

Any ideas how I can address this trigger of being blagged. Its bad enough listening to Brexit blagging or Trump blagging, it seems lying is suddenly in fashion and acceptable. A good friend of mine keeps telling me if I lied more, I wouldn’t be so annoyed at others. If you can't beat them and all that. That said, is he lying ? Only I don’t know how to lie, not well. My BPD and NPD both continually accused everyone of lying, our dad would say “honesty is the best policy.” Then there’s the BPD who lies but gets upset if others lie – hypocrisy is a big trigger too (even though we all are, but its shades of grey).

[Harri]

Any ideas how I can address this trigger of being blagged.

I used to get so angry when people lied to me too.  What helped me was figuring out the message that ran through my head when this would happen.

For me, I was taking it personally and once I was able to remove the false beliefs I had about what their lying to me said about me, I got a handle on things.  I still don't like being lied to but it does not set me off anymore.

So, when you know someone is lying to you, what does that feel like?  An insult to your intelligence?  A feeling they see you as an easy mark?  That they are playing you for a fool?  You may have different messages running through your head.  The ones I mention here were the ones I had to get a handle on.  Once I did, and I stopped taking things personally and instead saw their lying for what it was (all to do with them, not me) I was able to stop reacting and was no longer triggered.

[HappyChappy]

what does that feel like?  An insult to your intelligence?  A feeling they see you as an easy mark?

Exactly this. It reminds me of how vulnerable I am.

I guess I take it personal because these lies normally cost me money. Since falling ill my profit and more than halved. In truth I’m amazed I still have a business, thats down to loyal staff. But my suppliers and customers have taken advantage of their naivety.

I have helped and supported vulnerable people and groups my whole life, now I seem to struggle to defend myself. And everyone seems to think I don’t need help (except for on here), I should be supporting them. But in business you can never show a weekness, or your competition attack it.

Maybe I still need to come to terms with the fact I just can’t do what I use to, maybe I should sell up and learn to enjoy a lower stress life ? Running a business really is dog eat dog, because everyone assumes you’re a millionaire and owe them a living.

But back to your point, business should never be personal. I use to be that way, how do I get back. How do you de-personalise things, when you’re being triggered by CPTSD ? Lowering stress would do it, but before I sell up, anything else I could try ?

[Harri]

Exactly this. It reminds me of how vulnerable I am.

We talk a lot here about the inner critic and how that can shape our behaviors and thoughts.  There is also an outer critic that can take over and drives a lot of our emotional reactions or triggers and affects us quite deeply.  Are you familiar with the outer critic?  Triggers related to the past come out and affect the present.  Pete Walker has an article on this that you might find interesting:  SHRINKING THE OUTER CRITIC IN COMPLEX PTSD

Understanding the outer critic has been vital for me getting my triggers under control.  I had a visceral reaction to people lying to me, playing me, etc and would come up swinging and really get into an emotional tail spin.  Like I said I still don't like it and I hate being played or feeling like I am but I can manage it better (note I said better, I still have work to do here).  I can reason my way through, ask questions where appropriate or choose a response rather than react.

I guess I take it personal because these lies normally cost me money. Since falling ill my profit and more than halved. In truth I’m amazed I still have a business, thats down to loyal staff. But my suppliers and customers have taken advantage of their naivety.

It makes sense that this is personal to you because in a lot of ways it is.  But is your reaction wholly about the present or is the past coming in and driving your trigger?

How do you de-personalise things, when you’re being triggered by CPTSD ?

I would work on things when you are not being triggered.  Understanding what is driving some of your behaviors, knowing you can choose to act and respond differently, that you have agency over yourself.  Practicing with small things that trigger you.  Not feeding the fear but rather managing it with coping skills and understanding what is going on on an intellectual level will help you figure out how to do the above.  It is the emotional work that will do the job. 

Work on depersonalizing when you are not triggered.  Begin to change the message or narrative you tell yourself when someone does lie to you.  Not the surface stuff like how it affects your business but how vulnerable you feel and how it relates to a long ago past.  I think this might be the key for you.

Stress management is a good way to cope.  I am not sure selling your business is the way to go. 

[JNChell]

My T has told me that survivors of childhood abuse are very keen on people. We know what’s going on. Our problem is trusting our gut. HC, it sounds like you have reached a level of trusting your gut and you’re dealing with reacting. Reaction, which is a very big part of C-PTSD, is hard to wrangle. The response without taking a moment to think about it.

Harri is wonderful and has given a great response. Your reaction to the supplier ended up being a positive thing. Maybe you can relate that experience into normalcy. It didn’t feel right to lash out like that, but something positive came from it. I’ve worked in sales, it’s hard work.

Our childhoods sucked, Bro. Unfortunately, they followed us into adulthood. We’re left with choices. You’ve made really good choices. It’s okay to get pissed off at a worker or feel what you feel when you’re being lied to. I  :cursing:ing hate being lied to. I think that the important thing is staying grounded and knowing who you are. Liars don’t have control of themselves. You do.

I’m looking forward to some humor. My belly could use a laugh.

[madeline7]

So I had an interesting experience recently at a bridal shower. There was a silly game where you could collect rings placed throughout the house during the course of the party. At the end of the party, the person with the most rings got a prize. I ended up seeing where the stash of rings were but being the good honest person I am, I did not take any additional rings. I saw another friend find the stash and fill her pockets with rings. At the end of the party, as she took her winning rings out of her pocket, I rolled my eyes and scoffed (quietly but 2 other friends saw my reaction) and left the room. I came back after a few minutes, watched as the gifts were open and left the party early. I ended up talking to the 2 friends the next day, as I feared they thought I was being a bad sport. There is a lot of history with this group of friends, and they understood that it wasn't just the incident, but that I don't have much tolerance for liars and cheaters. I realized at that point that I am sensitive in part due to being lied to and having things twisted my whole life by my uBPDm and enabler Dad.  My past was indeed a part of my present. I have to learn now how to make the future mine, and not just reactions due to an unfortunate upbringing.

[zachira]

Great topic! How can we not be so triggered by the lies and mistreatment we receive/observe!
The challenge is to stay present with our feelings, thoughts, and body sensations in the moment we feel ourselves getting overwhelmed by interactions with others/observing dishonest behaviors so we  can own how we feel and not take on the feelings that are dumped on us. Growing up in a dysfunctional family/being in a dysfunctional relationship often teaches us that our feelings are not are own, and we take on the feelings that the BPD/NPD in our life is unable to tolerate and dumps on others. It can also help to practice daily mediation for at least 45 minutes a day, so no feeling or situation becomes too overwhelming, so we are living more in the moment instead of confusing past feelings with what is happening in the moment.
People that lie can be particularly triggering because they try to make us feel like we are the crazy ones. It helps me to remember that those that lie to others are also lying to themselves, while depriving themselves of honest fulfilling relationships.
We have to know who we can be truthful with. People with BPD/NPD do not want to hear the truth. It is all about them and they get angry if people do not do or say what they want to hear. The challenge is knowing how much of ourselves we can show to others while not being deceitful though sometimes we do have to lie to protect ourselves without making lying a first or usual response.

[HappyChappy]

I am not sure selling your business is the way to go.  

I totally understand why you would say this Harri, but I’ve been contemplating it for 6 years, five of which I’ve been too ill to run it properly. So its better I sell it now it, rather than continue to run myself and the biz into the ground. I’m exhausted, and part of business is knowing when to pull the plug, so you can fight another day. My type of business can also lose lots of money, so...
I’ve also noted how everyone takes advantage of when you’re ill, its “just  business”.  If I were to fall too ill, no question my business would drop into loss. My staff are good, but no one is trained to manage the whole thing, yet.

I’ve also realised, via the BPD thing, that I’ve been working very hard for others my whole life. My mom and ex both had no empathy and would invalidate any suggestion of me being ill, because they both benefited from my business. My sister, bless her, has now married so doesn’t need financial support. I set up trust funds for the kids so they’re sorted now.

They also say me getting better is the main thing , mind you they also ask will I buy them a house. But my friends don’t care about money, in fact my working class friends from school think I’m some sort of big cheese, so I don’t feel I need to achieve any more. If I sell at market rate, I’d have enough money to tide me over until my pensions kick in. And Brexit is going ravage my company, so why not sell now, whilst it has a value. The sale would included safeguarding the staff. I've worked hard my whole life to create jobs for country and Brexit will blow these away in a few months. Just because some private school NPD like toffs sold a bunch of lies to us.

I met with my good friends from Uni, all three of us have companies of size, we all agreed staff are the most stressful part of it all. So I would just be a consultant working from home, just to keep the grey matter ticking. In fact my specialism is rapid growth, so getting a business to grow slowly would be easy. Doing something for myself, for the first time in my life.

Any hoo, you guys know me reasonably well, can you fault my logic ? Have I missed something ? The other thing is I’ve got a bucket list and Angelian Jollie is only going to be around for so long... Also my son is keen as mustard to set up a business with me, and a comedy review group (of note) wants  me to get involved ... so plenty to do ... maybe not big money, but I don't care, I'm a working class boy that doesn't spend, so...

[Notwendy]

My mother trained me to tell the truth. Not a bad value to teach a child, but it made me a complete open book to her and  gullible to her. I won't say I never have lied but I am terrible at it and have a hard time picking up on others who lie.

I was middle age when I witnessed my mother lying to get what she wants and realized she knew what she was doing. I also realized that she has lied to me and continues to lie to me. I felt a sense of shock and betrayal that she knowingly took advantage of my trust in her. I am grateful for having been raised to be ethical, but didn't know how to deal with the fact that this had made me so vulnerable to being manipulated by her. I was expected to be honest, to honor my parents, to do the right thing. I'm glad for that, but when one person plays by the rules and the other one doesn't- then what?

I have found that this is a large barrier to any kind of meaningful relationship with her. I don't trust her. I am not  much triggered by someone lying to me as I then can not trust them. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and take what they say at face value unless/until I learn otherwise but then I have a hard time trusting them if I know they lied to me and probably can not trust them after that.

I also don't like that I feel I sink to my mother's level when dealing with her. I wish I could be more open and transparent with her,  but I don't tell her a lot of things because I have felt used and duped by her.

[HappyChappy]

Great topic!...
...People with BPD/NPD do not want to hear the truth. It is all about them and they get angry if people do not do or say what they want to hear. The challenge is knowing how much of ourselves we can show to others while not being deceitful though sometimes we do have to lie to protect ourselves without making lying a first or usual response.

Good point. But my BPD ensured we didn't learn how to lie, by overtly draconian punishments for such. She was called "the Gestapo", because anyone who entered the house was hit by a tilde wave of cross questioning as if they were a war criminal. My friends were scared stiff of her. This means, I find it very hard holding back and if I do lie people can tell (I tend to laugh).

When I first learn't  S.E.T. my intimidate thought was, my BPD can't accept the truth. But I guess you're saying we need to be economical with the truth. I think that will be harder for scapgoats, we were pinned against the wall and never allowed an escape, verbal or otherwise. My sister is the lost child, so finds it very easy to be economical with the truth. A gold child also doesn't need to exlain themselves as much.

madeline7 "I can't be ringed " is UK slang for I can't be bothered. .

Anyway, can anyone see any broken logic in my need to sell up ? Have I missed anything ? Full details in my last post.

[Notwendy]

" need to be economical with the truth" "harder for scapegoats".

This makes so much sense. With my mother's poor boundaries, I was ( and still am) pressured by her to tell her everything, to respond to all her questions. I also learned that she "uses " this information in many ways- to talk about me to others to build herself up somehow. Saying something in confidence to her didn't mean she'd keep it.

"The golden child doesn't need to explain as much" This explains the dynamics between me and my H. He's the golden child in his family. I wouldn't say he isn't honest with me but that he doesn't tell me things and I find out later. In his family, he got by by not saying things and appearing to be the "good one". I have found myself doing the same thing with him. I don't want to be a completely open book to someone who isn't open with me. Maybe I was too open/gullible before and now am experiencing "normal" or at least an economy of truth, which doesn't feel normal considering how I was raised. Of course, I tell him important things, but he doesn't need to know everything I do in a day and neither does my mother.

[JNChell]

Notwendy, my mom conditioned me, or tried to, to always be honest as well. Holy crap, your description really struck a chord. Utter manipulation. I agree that honesty is an important virtue, but it shouldn’t be weaponized like that. I wonder if this didn’t play into our parents keeping us from sharing information outside of the home life. School counselors and the like. My T and I have had conversations on why nobody else knew, presumably. People knew because I made it known in roundabout ways. Safe ways.

I also lied a lot to try to protect myself. It didn’t really matter though. If I was getting it, I was getting it. The lying did save me at times, though. My Son is fairly honest with me because he doesn’t fear punishment. We talk things through. He’s only 4, but I don’t discount that. He’ll have a better life. He already does.

My Sis was the Golden Child, but she came away from things without a disorder or severe traits. She is a people pleaser but it could’ve been much worse. We were both adopted and I often wonder if the lack of the infant/mother bond played a part in our outcomes.