How would you reply to this?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi everyone.  I finally figured out a pattern in communication with my BPD husband and would like to hear your suggestions about how to reply.  I have "don't JADE" figured out pretty well but but how would you reply when a BPD spouse teasingly fires accusatory questions your way?  An a typical example is, that I walk in the door from work, carrying a "to-go" coffee cup and he immediately fires "Where did you go?" If I say "Hi honey, yep, I went to ____ today." He comes back with "... uh... HUH!" and other comments as if I was doing something wrong. The situation could be different but the pattern is the same.  I could be looking at my phone and he'll fire: "WHO are you TEXTING?" If I just answer a short sweet statement of fact, "I'm adding to our grocery list."  He does the same "yeah, I caught you doing something wrong" intonation.  This is a second marriage of a few years (I had no clue what I was walking into) and I'm almost 60 years old.  For crying out loud, I don't need to be treated like a child. I have entertained the thought that ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous replies:  "Ah yes, you caught me. I had a meeting of Universal Superpowers at ______ today and we decided to expand coffee production on Mars. What do you think? Good idea?"  Problem is, I'm not that quick-witted until long after the fact.  Any suggestions, folks?  I'm tired of this.  Gah... !

[nuthereggsheller]

Hi everyone.  I finally figured out a pattern in communication with my BPD husband and would like to hear your suggestions about how to reply.  I have "don't JADE" figured out pretty well but but how would you reply when a BPD spouse teasingly fires accusatory questions your way?  An a typical example is, that I walk in the door from work, carrying a "to-go" coffee cup and he immediately fires "Where did you go?" If I say "Hi honey, yep, I went to ____ today." He comes back with "... uh... HUH!" and other comments as if I was doing something wrong. The situation could be different but the pattern is the same.  I could be looking at my phone and he'll fire: "WHO are you TEXTING?" If I just answer a short sweet statement of fact, "I'm adding to our grocery list."  He does the same "yeah, I caught you doing something wrong" intonation.  This is a second marriage of a few years (I had no clue what I was walking into) and I'm almost 60 years old.  For crying out loud, I don't need to be treated like a child. I have entertained the thought that ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous replies:  "Ah yes, you caught me. I had a meeting of Universal Superpowers at ______ today and we decided to expand coffee production on Mars. What do you think? Good idea?"  Problem is, I'm not that quick-witted until long after the fact.  Any suggestions, folks?  I'm tired of this.  Gah... !

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SunandMoon]

Hi Nuthereggsheller 

It must be frustrating to be met with suspicion when you walk in the door. It sounds like he might be sitting there worrying that you're up to something, or seeing someone.

As you know, pwBPD have a lot of negative self-talk going on in their heads - as well as the ever present fear of abandonment.

You could try something like sitting next to him when he does that and asking "where did you think I was?" Then practice listening with empathy to allay his fears: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

With the phone, maybe say something like "I'm adding washing powder to our shopping list" and show him your phone. This lets him see physical proof that his fear is for nothing.

SET is very useful for showing you understand while stating your truth:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Hopefully if you do this a few times, he will be able to let the suspicion go. What do you think?

[nuthereggsheller]

Thanks, SunandMoon, I've done exactly that repeatedly and no amount of sincere, direct, fear-allaying reassures him. I'm just tired of having accusations flung at me. Ridiculous retorts aside, I really want to say, "hey, when you say X, I feel Y. Could you please stop making accusatory comments, even jokingly? I'm happy to tell you all about my day, but it's not funny to me to treated like a suspect in a crime. If you don't trust me, just tell me, and let's work that out together. If you do trust me, then trust me to be good to you and please stop the accusations and suspicious intonations."

But for me to make a request of him like that will definitely trigger a negative reaction - possibly anger, defensiveness or more suspicion.

I feel like the BPD gets to behave however they want, and us non-BPDs have to dance around them and just take what they sling, walk away when they cross our boundary, and then never ever really address their B.S.

[SunandMoon]

Hmm, that's really frustrating nuthereggsheller.

I really want to say, "hey, when you say X, I feel Y. Could you please stop making accusatory comments, even jokingly? I'm happy to tell you all about my day, but it's not funny to me to treated like a suspect in a crime. If you don't trust me, just tell me, and let's work that out together. If you do trust me, then trust me to be good to you and please stop the accusations and suspicious intonations."

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to say, if you can do it in a calm way.

Expect some push back because, of course, it's BPD but if he starts amping up about it, walk away. You've said your piece. Then enforce it.

Him: "Where did you go?"
You: "Hi darling, how was your day?"

Ignore accusations or suspicious comments; refuse to respond. He might push it but keep refusing to get drawn in. If necessary, move away. You might even have to say: "I'm not doing this" in a firm and calm way.

I've done similar and there's always some push back but if you can be consistent and calm, he won't get anything out of it any more and the behaviour will stop.

Does he work too?

[nuthereggsheller]

Yes he works. And I can say "Hi babe, how was your day?" and I'll get the run-down of his day, and my response is usually something like "oh, that's cool  " or "nice!   how is ___ doing these days?" but I don't ask beyond that unless he wants to talk about something. Then I just listen and affirm.

Regarding:  That sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing to say, if you can do it in a calm way.  Thank you for validating that it sounds reasonable.  I really appreciate it because BPDs have a way of causing the partner to wonder if they truly are being reasonable.

However, no can do.  It doesn't matter how sweet, gentle or kind I am. I can NOT make a request of any kind without him denying that he's doing that thing, and getting angry that I would accuse him of such horrific wrong-doing. Then he's triggered and it's all my fault that I'm being so bad to him.

So maybe I'm just kind of stuck with either completely ignoring his questions and comments, or saying the perfectly reasonable thing and then walk away if he gets triggered?  I'm already feeling very emotionally distant in this relationship because of all this, and I guess I'm also stuck with not having the emotional connection that loving, respectful, two-way conversation brings. ?

[once removed]

So maybe I'm just kind of stuck with either completely ignoring his questions and comments, or saying the perfectly reasonable thing and then walk away if he gets triggered? 

if you say the reasonable thing, it would be a change in you and your response. i agree with SunandMoon that you can expect push back. at that point, it may reach an unproductive level to continue the conversation. avoid escalating or JADEing, and avoid using a time out as punishment, but it is generally best not to engage if its making things worse; you need a graceful exit that doesnt escalate or look like punishment...youre going to take a nap, going to pick up a book, going to start dinner, whatever.

then revisit the conversation when things have calmed down. ask questions, and do more listening than talking. at the conclusion, paraphrase what hes saying (see if he agrees). revisit the conversation in another day or two.

generally, its best to use those times of calm to express our feelings, to build on the relationship, to work to get on the same page about something. its also best to think of the tools in terms of a life style change, rather than as a quick fix to get our partners to be more cooperative. getting the relationship on a healthier trajectory is a much longer term, bigger picture thing.

[nuthereggsheller]

Thank you, Once Removed.  Your words validate some of my past thoughts and actions as well.  I hear you on the change in response and expecting push back.  I've seen that before, and I believe that's why I stopped expressing my true feelings.

Revisiting the conversation at a later point almost always ends with him pointing all the fingers at me. I have learned that everything will always be my fault, and that trying to have a conversation to grow the relationship only ends up in an attack against me, and days of him stonewalling me.

I'm tired of fighting for this relationship.  I guess I'm working that out in writing now... trying to find ways to repair and grow the relationship, but feeling totally wrung out, and done with being a target. And perhaps I'm just done. Period.

[once removed]

I'm tired of fighting for this relationship.  I guess I'm working that out in writing now... trying to find ways to repair and grow the relationship, but feeling totally wrung out, and done with being a target. And perhaps I'm just done. Period.

can you read this and tell us what stage you feel your relationship is in: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

[nuthereggsheller]

There have clearly been episodes of him stonewalling me when he's triggered. That has been episodic for the past three years - started pretty much immediately after we married. However, we bounced back each time. It looks like we are stage three, with me being the one feeling (quiet, hidden) contempt, and working our way into stage four. We just had a two day "fight" in which he once again accused me of wrongdoing (for not answering his phone call while I was driving) and when.I finally set a boundary, he doesn't want to talk to me, and I'm perfectly fine with that now. I'm not interested in spending any time with him at all. I have never been one to stonewall but I'm exhausted.

[SunandMoon]

You sound exhausted and ready to give up Nuthereggsheller. These relationships are exhausting when they're not going well, so it's good to recognise that and make a conscious effort to take care of yourself.

What boundary did you set? What was said and how did he react?

[nuthereggsheller]

Hello SunandMoon,
The boundary I set was after saying almost verbatim my earlier comment that you described as "reasonable," I said, "If you do this again, I am not going to respond."  He didn't react in the moment but after the inital two days of stonewalling, we are into an additional two days of minimal communication. I still have not heard anything from him that resembles an apology or acknowledgement of his own unhelpful behavior, and since he has never sincerely apologized for anything (only the sarcastic victimized "I'm SORRY!") I wouldn't expect to. In the past I would seek to restore communication, hear his heart, apologize for anything I could find that is my responsibility, and accept his willingness to restore communication as the only form of apology he is capable of. I'm tired of carrying this relationship.

[SunandMoon]

Good for you, Nuthereggsheller! It probably wasn't easy for you to do that but addressing the problem is a step forward.

Of course, there's push back because he didn't like hearing it and it probably brings up shame for him.

How we state boundaries is very important and I'm sure you did it as nicely as possible. How we follow up afterwards is equally important because we don't want to be using the boundary as punishment but rather a way of changing a particular behaviour.

If I do this with my husband, I'm careful to act normal afterwards and just carry on in a friendly manner. I've said what I feel and how it affects me, and let him know what steps I'll take to protect myself in future but it isn't as argument and I'm not going to make him feel bad about it or carry it on any further.

Can you do that? Just talk to him normally about normal things and be friendly and open? It's giving him a way to come back from feeling shame or that he's "wrong".

I did see in another post you wrote about his infidelity earlier in your relationship. That's interesting in light of his covert accusations that you are playing around.

Do you think he feels guilty about it and therefore expects you to do the same to him? Or is he projecting his own behaviour onto you? Why do you think he does it?

[nuthereggsheller]

Thanks SunandMoon.
Yes, I can talk to him normally, and have been. But I'm not bending over backward as in the past to try to emotionally reconnect. I think we both feel uncomfortable with the current dynamic, but I feel if I try to bridge the divide, it will be the same old dynamic and nothing will change. As far as his infidelity and accusations toward me, I don't know what's really going on in his head with that one. He tends to forget his past behavior and rewrite it. So he may not even "remember" his infidelity. In any case, the most likely is insecurity and fear of abandonment.

[once removed]

Hello SunandMoon,
The boundary I set was after saying almost verbatim my earlier comment that you described as "reasonable," I said, "If you do this again, I am not going to respond."  He didn't react in the moment but after the inital two days of stonewalling, we are into an additional two days of minimal communication.

the term "setting boundaries" can be misleading.

if you think of boundaries as something to "use", or something to resolve a particular conflict, you are likely to get tripped up.

if you think of boundaries as a lifestyle, actions taken (or not taken) in accordance with your values, and modeling the kind of relationship you want to be in, moves become clearer.

i think this workshop on boundaries will really help in seeing it in more global terms: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

but I feel if I try to bridge the divide, it will be the same old dynamic and nothing will change.

this really depends on whether or not you are okay with the relationship deteriorating. that might be the alternative. when we shut others out in order to teach them how to treat us, that is most often how they treat us.

i think a lot of us often fall into the trap of thinking we have to either lay down as door mats, or over assert ourselves, when neither is ideal. these are especially challenging relationships. they often require new ways of looking at things, and skills that a lot of us had never heard of or have experience with.

[nuthereggsheller]

Thank you for your thoughts. Regarding:  if you think of boundaries as a lifestyle, actions taken (or not taken) in accordance with your values, and modeling the kind of relationship you want to be in, moves become clearer. , and when we shut others out in order to teach them how to treat us, that is most often how they treat us.  My boundary of "if you do this again, I will not respond to it" was not a punishment or a warning of shutting down or giving the silent treatment, but rather a fair and calm statement of "I'm not going to engage with you by JADE-ing" (just different words). In every past instance of this nature, he has questioned me unreasonably and my response was always (in my own head) "cool, I'll tell him what I'm doing/where I was and that will make sense, i.e. a normal conversation that falls in the same vein as "hey babe, how was your day, where did you go today, do anything interesting, etc." or "hey, I was a little worried about you when you didn't text me back." But it's not that. He pushes to corner me and "catch me doing wrong." My value is respect (both ways) and
loving communication, and if he chooses to interrogate me, that is not okay with me, and I will not JADE.  It is his choice to stonewall. That's not my M.O.  In the past when I have seen him blow up, melt down, walk away angry, I've asked him after a little cooling off period "Hey, would you like to talk?"  And the response I got was either more stonewalling, a simple "no" or "don't ask me to talk; I don't like talking when I'm angry."  Okay, fine. That's actually pretty reasonable to me - he doesn't like talking when he's angry so I give him that space to move through his thoughts and feelings.  I keep myself available to talk when he's on the other side of his emotions, and let him come to me, but I know now not to ask him.  So that's his boundary.  Cool. I can accept that.  I will not JADE when he interrogates me.  That's my boundary.  Does that makes sense now?

[Hopeandjoy]

I have entertained the thought that ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous replies

I would diffuse because he will punish later if you return in kind. You can shut down the game by politely stating the truth but don't do anything to try reassuring him. "I was adding to our grocery list." You can also ask "Is there a reason you're worried about me talking on the phone?"

My bf was like that with my phone, he lets me watch movies on his phone and leaves it open to play music, but I have a lock on mine and I turn it off at night. He acted suspicious until he realized that he could push the side button and see if there were any notifications, and he could keep my phone in his pocket when we went out without my purse. I still have a lock on it, but since he knows he can look at the lock screen he's never been interested in going farther than that. And he hasn't picked my phone up for 3 months. I've never said a word about it. I think it gave him a sense of transparency.

pwBPD are ashamed of their needs and afraid to ask for them. they use power trips to get what they need, and get defensive when you confront it.

It sounds like you're on the right path with learning JADE and correct use of boundaries. these skills will improve all of your relationships.

[SunandMoon]

He pushes to corner me and "catch me doing wrong." My value is respect (both ways) and loving communication, and if he chooses to interrogate me, that is not okay with me, and I will not JADE.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, Nuthereggsheller. I didn't read it as trying to control him but rather as making a decision on how you will protect yourself from accusations that are hurtful and annoying (and possibly projection).

It's a tricky situation afterwards because, even if you were having this awkward discussion with a non - say a friend - they would probably feel embarrassed and take a step back or go quiet. With a pwBPD that reaction would be magnified.

I would probably reach out and let the friend know that it doesn't mean I don't like them or want to spend time with them; just that I want that behaviour to stop. Then I'd probably suggest we go out and do something, move on and enjoy each other's company.

What do you think? Are things improving yet?
SaM x

[nuthereggsheller]

Hi SunandMoon,

Thanks for your clarification. I see what you are saying and it makes perfect sense to me. You asked if things are improving, and the answer is yes and no. In this particular moment (so far) he is currently talking to me. But as we all know, that can change in the drop of a hat for any reason. So who knows if I can say the same thing tomorrow - heck, if I can say the same thing in 10 minutes.  Thanks, for your care and support. I really appreciate it!   

[Chosen]

I would diffuse because he will punish later if you return in kind.

Totally agree with this and I would never use "ridiculous" replies with a pwBPD.  Maybe over-generalising, but they tend to HATE any perceived kind of mockery.  And they will punish you.  At least, mine would definitely punish me.

I get a lot of those accusatory interrogations too.  I believe in loving communication and trust, but that doesn't mean that if he cannot do it, I will stop doing it, because the way I communicate reflects who I am (and also I really don't want to be doing the wrong things so he has an excuse to further blame me for his behaviour).  If I were in your shoes I would just say "I'm adding to the grocery list" or whatever the real reason was at that moment, and leave it at that.  He can choose to believe me or not, but the more I explain myself the more it would seem that I'm hiding.

[nuthereggsheller]

Thanks, Chosen. I agree with you too.

[Hopeandjoy]

I believe in loving communication and trust, but that doesn't mean that if he cannot do it, I will stop doing it, because the way I communicate reflects who I am

Yes. yes I love this! Not reacting to the BPD behavior enables you to enjoy your life despite their "issues". At the same time the pwBPD starts respecting you and automatically picks up on some of the healthy things that you role model.

[Red5]

Totally agree with this and I would never use "ridiculous" replies with a pwBPD.  Maybe over-generalising, but they tend to HATE any perceived kind of mockery.  And they will punish you.  At least, mine would definitely punish me.

Me2… I used to have a bad habit, before I was further along the path of "understanding" in regards to BPD/npd [ traits of ], to actually be quite sarcastic, and short with my uBPD wife… the "what is it now" attitude.

I know now that this type of responsive behavior('s), albeit at my "wits end" of tolerance with her .. was very invalidating, very counter "productive"… and was not the right way to communicate with her when she was in her "mood"… ie' dysregulation.

I did a lot of damage,

Live and learn I guess : (

Hang in there nuthereggsheller,

Red5

[nuthereggsheller]

Well, so guess where we are now, y'all? I got to the point where I decided I'm done. Done. Done. Done. I requested information from this board about legal concerns. I counseled about going forward with a divorce, and getting my bases covered, getting my emotions ready.

I didn't stonewall him - because I don't do that. Period. But I withdrew a bit more, just getting some disconnection and sanity for myself. Not long after that (a couple of weeks?) I don't remember how it came up - who said what or how - but it resulted in sitting down to talk at length. I told him this wasn't the marriage I signed up for, and that for the past three years he has been full of stress (and I listed all his reasons for claiming he has been stressed) and taking it out on me (and I gave examples of some the times he did just that). I said, "It's okay to be stressed; it's not okay to come home and take it out on me."  At first he balked at "three years" but when I gave him an example that occurred right after we got married that I know he remembers, it drove it home. I mentioned how he questions where I am and what I'm doing. And I pointed out that I am up at 5am to make his breakfast and lunch and do chores before I leave for work, work until 5pm and come home and make his dinner and do more chores before sitting with him to watch tv (because he wants me to) before falling into bed exhausted. I'm carrying the full load paying for every bill (mortgage, utitilities, my car, gas, insurances... all of it) and I'm exhausted. I have my own stress and I don't want to carry his too. This is not okay.

He actually apologized, and admitted that I've been doing everything. He promised to change. I told him that things are not going to be all better overnight. That was a week ago (ish) and he has been very kind, very optimistic, very patient, is looking for different work, and is more conscious of his share of the chores. He isn't texting me several times a day or asking where I've been. Right now it's a normal "what's your day look like today?" normal-person exchange.  If he had continued to be THIS person after we got married, we wouldn't have a problem.

We haven't had sex in a few weeks (which I was only tolerating since he cheated on me anyway), and I told him I got nuthin'.  Not feelin' it. He is accepting of that, and though he said "I need you," he takes it when I remove myself from a hug. I'm just not there.

One piece of counsel I received was "I hear you are done. If you are done done, don't get lured back in if he begins to exhibit good behavior and charm."  Well, I don't know what to believe right now.  I know he's not a bad person.  He's generally a good guy.  It's just that I've been emotionally jerked around so much in the past three years, and I don't know what to expect going forward or if there is just too much crap from the past three years that it doesn't make any difference.

Ugh. I was hoping my next post here would say "he's moved out and I'm moving on."  But now he's being reasonable.  Anyone else been here and have insights?

[once removed]

Well, I don't know what to believe right now.  I know he's not a bad person.  He's generally a good guy.
...
Ugh. I was hoping my next post here would say "he's moved out and I'm moving on."  But now he's being reasonable.  Anyone else been here and have insights?

its exactly like you said. the problems wont be fixed over night.

he is likely sincere in his efforts right now. the question is whether the two of you are committed, and have the guidance, to rebuild, to communicate, to fundamentally and radically change the trajectory of your relationship.

he will slip up. he may turn around and list his own problems with the relationship as he sees them. he may sense your withdrawal and rebel against it, rather than trying to assuage it as hes doing now.

it all really depends on where youre at, and i sense youre conflicted. if any of those things would cause you to snap, if youre not prepared to reinvest for the long haul, something like a therapeutic separation would probably be preferable to either snapping, or to high expectations of new/best behavior, or to continuing as things are. if, on the other hand, you want to reinvest without a therapeutic separation, i think you should be realistic that things have broken down considerably, and he would have a hard road at real and lasting change, and that you are at your limit. it would be a long road, and youll need help. are the both of you open to marital therapy?

[nuthereggsheller]

Thanks. That sounds realistic.  I've been open to marital help from early on. He is not. Several times he has said that he doesn't need/want anyone's help and he won't go.

[once removed]

how are things going since?