New here, affair gone wrong

[ClearEyes]

Hi everyone,

I’m new to the forums and here’s an overview about my situation. There’s happened a lot during the last 1,5 years in my life. I’ve been in relationship with my wife (non-BPD) for nearly 10 years but in the beginning of last year things escaleted with my mental health. I got an OCD diagnosis due to severe anxiety and intrusive thoughts, started SSRI medication and also cognitive behavioral therapy. Althought I’ve more or less always struggled with anxiety, the first half of ’18 was worse than ever and multiple times I was sure I’m completely going to lose my mind. Medication, self-help books and therapy of course made me feel better but the biggest ”help” to stop feeling mentally awful came from a dangerous place: I became infatuated with of one my closest colleagues (C) who returned from parental leave in last autumn.

Sure, I’ve had crushes also before in our relationship but I had never acted on them. This time it was different. Being near this person – very attractive, charismatic and smart young woman – and talking to her made me forget my anxiety almost completely and feel alive once again (thanks dopamine). Relief from anxiety combined to the fact that two years earlier my wife had a short affair made me justify my own actions to myself. As the autumn progressed, I started to become sure that C was also interested in me. Finally, in last November, I told about my feelings to C. I don’t know what I expected her answer to be but it was basically ”I’m also head over heels about you, please save me from my awful life”. :/ After this I also told my wife about the situation  and my crush and we agreed that we would get over this, like we had donebefore. Only difference to previous times was that I wasn’t believing what I was saying. ☹

After we both, C & I, knew about our feelings, things moved forward rapidly. I think we sent hundreds of messages daily. In January I informed my wife that I can’t commit to our relationship anymore and at the end of February we moved to different addresses. At the same time my affair/relationship with C, who also left her husband in January, got really physical but also really toxic. And that is the reason I’m writing on these forums. Our relationship lasted till the beginning of June and I’ve been a wreck after that. At some point in the spring I remember that C asked if I think she has BPD. I didn’t know about the condition back than but what I’ve read about BPD afterwards definitely matches with her in a lot of ways:

•   Radical & rapid mood swings: either C was the happiest person alive or drowning in the deepest depression. The mood could change in an instant, it usually happened when we talked about my feelings toward my wife.
•   Fear of abandonment: every word about my wife was for C a sure sign I was going to leave her.
•   Constant ebb & flow dynamics in the relationship: crisis-bliss-confusion-repeat
•   No one has ever been so overwhelmingly into me, she made feel like I’m the most desired person in the whole universe. I’ve learnt that this is called love bombing.
•   No one has ever made me feel so PLEASE READty about myself. For example during the spring C had a one-night stand with a guy she met in a bar, after one of our crisis she installed Tinder, went on a date, and also in Tinder C met a woman with whom she’s been actively in contact ever since (C is bisexual). When I told C that because of these events I feel that I’m constantly easily replaceable for, she started to accuse that I’m the one who is the cheater (because when we first kissed, I hadn’t told me wife that I want a divorce) and my jealousy reminds me of her ex-husbands controlling behaviour.
•   Her ex-husband was according to her basically a controlling and manipulative monster
•   Emotions as compass, e.g. if something caused her anxiety, that was for her a clear sign that it was bad for her
•   Importance of ”emotional connections”: C always said who easy it was for her to form emotional connections with other people, read their emotions and get people to trust her. According to her she had never had as strong connection as with me. Also according to her the problem in her marriage was, that because of her husband’s behavior the emotional connection between them had broken, which made it unbearable for her to stay in the marriage. Interestingly, our relationship also ended because she felt that the emotional connection had diminished between us. Two days prior to this announcement she had told me how she doesn’t ever want to have sex with anyone else than me..
•   Suicidal thoughts
•   Depression
•   Bulimia
•   Self-hatred and deep sense that something was irreparably wrong with her
•   (Hyper)sexuality: I could fulfill my every fantasy with her and even more and she was constantly ready for more.  That’s the most powerful drug I’ve ever had.

Now, I’m not saying that everything was C’s fault because it most definitely was not:
•   To start with I had left my loving wife to be with another woman and to escape my anxiety without giving us the chance to fix things
•   I was constantly feeling guilty about leaving my wife and unsure if I should go back, because I still have strong feelings for her, which was the reason for most of our crises with C
•   I have a lot of codependent and savior complex traits: as much as the affair/relationship was about escaping my own anxiety and getting validation from another person it was about saving C from her ”awful marriage” and depression.

As mentioned before, our relationship ended in June. According to C we were both feeding our anxieties and uncertainties and she couldn’t continue like that. Also the emotional connection was gone. Rationally I understand this is the best option, because hardly no good can come of a rebound relationship between to mentally ill people. Yet, what I find confusing is that C made me believe that I’m all she has ever wanted and when I finally signed my divorce papers in May, she soon informed that she does not want exclusivity, instead she also wants to have the option to meet other people. That caused me extreme anxiety which she interpreted as controlling jealousy, similar that she had experienced with her ex. Other thing that is hard to grasp is that a person who not so long ago told me she’s had the strongest emotional connection and best sex with me, has been after the breakup like there was never anything between us. That makes this the hardest breakup I’ve ever experienced which has led to a lot of obsessing and rumination about C, although I know I should be focusing on my marriage. Because believe or not, my wife is still willing to take me back after all the pain I’ve caused her. But although I love my wife and wish her all the best in life, I’m not sure if I can go back. :/

I still have one week of summer holiday left, then I’m going to see C once again daily at work and I don’t know how it will go.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear ClearEyes-

Welcome to our community.  I am very sorry for the pain and confusion that brings you here, but very glad that you’ve found us.

You’ll find that this site has a LOT of very useful information to help you better understand the evolution of your relationship with C.  I suggest you read through different areas and see which topics fit with your situation. 

PwBPD (people with BPD) often operate “in the moment”; meaning she likely MEANT the words she said about the intensity of her feelings for you when she SAID them.  However the feelings of pwBPD can cycle and change VERY rapidly.  And that change had nothing to do with you.  I’m very sorry.

Are you working with a therapist now?  If not, this may be a good time to contact your T and work on processing this relationship and your feelings around what has happened.  Are you living by yourself now?

What kind of contact have you had with C since your relationship ended?  Are you on amicable terms?  Have the two of you discussed that you will be cordial with one another at work?

How long have you been on summer holiday from work?  Does your work offer medical leave if you were to need a few weeks to do some therapy prior to your return?

Something to keep in mind is this... we all have boundaries, whether spoken or not.  Our boundaries reflect OUR VALUES.  Clearly, one of your values (now) is that you are NOT comfortable with a partner who is also intimate with other partners (i.e. you’re NOT comfortable with polyamory).  This is HER lifestyle, and you do NOT have to alter your values to match up to hers.  It would have been decent if she had been open about her desires BEFORE you left your marriage, but oh well...

I feel The important thing now is for you to work on yourself.  I’m hoping your wife is not pressuring you to return straightaway to work on the marriage.  I’m certain with the help of a T you can uncover the reasons for your heightened anxiety, the reason you looked outside your marriage, and tools to move toward self-healing.

I’m NOT saying turn your back on your W, but rather explain that if and when you return, you want it to be with a clear heart and a clear mind.

Please keep posting.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[ClearEyes]

Thanks for your kind reply Gemsforeyes,

Are you working with a therapist now?  If not, this may be a good time to contact your T and work on processing this relationship and your feelings around what has happened.  Are you living by yourself now?

Yes, I've been seeing my therapists almost weekly now for a year. The progress is slow but it's still happening. According to my T the core problem is that I can't handle uncertainty and I'm always trying to fix negative feelings instead of having the courage to face and experience them. And the more I try to control, avoid or distract my anxiety, the worse it gets. And in a lot sense the affair with my colleague was very much about escaping my anxiety. In those infatuated and passionate moments I could forget my inner pain. But now that it's over the pain is back almost stronger than ever and that's why I'm so obsessively trying to figure out ways to get my colleague back to me, although I know that the only permanant way out is to embrace and accept the pain, not to try to fix it. I also recognize that I'm not missing C for example the way I miss my wife, the thought of getting C back is more like an addiction and compulsion to provide momentary relief and escape from the anxiety. :/

And yes, I'm living by myself now and it has been quite a shock after being in a relationship the last 10 years. But I'm trying to focus on really simple things, like breathing in and out, and I think it's getting easier day by day.

What kind of contact have you had with C since your relationship ended?  Are you on amicable terms?  Have the two of you discussed that you will be cordial with one another at work?

I've send her messages every now and then after the breakup, initially they where quite desperate ones filled with why questions but "unsurprisingly" I didn't get the answers I was looking for, mainly frustation instead. Sometimes she briefly answers to my messages, sometimes not. We've been in NC now over a week but we've agreed to meet on friday (unless she cancels it last minute). She has told me that she wants us to be at least friends but according to her at the moment hanging out with me causes pain to both of us. And I understand this but the rapid drop from being the center of her universe to a person that she doesn't want to meet and that causes her pain has been difficult to deal with. But to answer to your question I see that we are in neutral terms and she doesn't hate me, mainly just ignores.

How long have you been on summer holiday from work?  Does your work offer medical leave if you were to need a few weeks to do some therapy prior to your return?

We had our summer holidays in different times so in total we've been on holiday for five weeks without seeing each other. I do have the option for medical leave but I don't think the situation is that bad, at least not yet.

I feel The important thing now is for you to work on yourself.  I’m hoping your wife is not pressuring you to return straightaway to work on the marriage.  I’m certain with the help of a T you can uncover the reasons for your heightened anxiety, the reason you looked outside your marriage, and tools to move toward self-healing.

My wife has been so understanding during the whole time that it brings tears to my eyes. From the beginning she's said that my actions are naive and irrational but she understand that I'm in a middle of a personal/existential crisis and she's willing to give me space. She's a woman to die for but if I went back, I'm scared that I would hurt her again, that's why I think that I can't do that, not in this moment. :/

Please keep posting.

Thank you, I will!

[Wicker Man]

I am sorry you are going through this.  I am even more sorry I have such a complete understanding of your circumstance.  In the immortal words of Will Rogers 'Everything is funny, as long as it's happening to somebody else.' 

I had an affair with someone whom, I believe, suffers deeply from BPD... I filed for divorce only to have my wife suggest reconciliation.  My affair happened over a 18 month timeline during which time I had simply lost all sense of reason. 

Limerence should come with a warning label.

...the thought of getting C back is more like an addiction and compulsion to provide momentary relief and escape from the anxiety...

I understand what you mean... -but I have to say wanting someone back, who may suffer from BPD to alleviate anxiety, is a bit ironic...  My affair partner had an uncanny knack for creating an anxiety which I had previously never known.  During my affair I thought, for the first time in my life, I had become jealous -when instead of jealousy it was actually her eroding my trust in her.  I had never had a partner I could not trust and the feeling was as novel as it was horrible.

I would like to suggest a few books which I have found helpful.

State of Affairs -Ester Perel
Marriage Clinic -John Gottman
5 Love Languages -Chapman (this really should be more of a pamphlet -it is very repetitive, but there is a kernel of wisdom in it)

...I'm trying to focus on really simple things, like breathing in and out, and I think it's getting easier day by day.

If you can, try to get out and take a daily walk.  I found it really hard to get up and out of the house (or apartment while we were separate), but once I managed it I was better for the effort. 

Are you journalling?  I found it cathartic and therapeutic to force myself to articulate my thoughts to the point of being able to put them onto paper.  Further I found it important to write my honest assessment of both my affair and the state of my marriage before the affair.  We had let our marriage go to seed and we found we had a lot of work to do -which was only compounded further by my transgression.

...I didn't get the answers I was looking for, mainly frustration instead...

I broke no contact after a year in an attempt to gain some level of closure and to let her know in no uncertain terms why we fell apart.  She had been convinced it was due to her rages, when it was actually her erosion of my trust in her.  She is young and has a long life ahead of her -so I had hoped to perhaps give her some insight.  I am afraid she will not seek therapy and she will continue on a path to destruction.

What I discovered during this exchange was my affair partner's utter lack of ability for any level of accountability or introspection.  This seems to be a hallmark of BPD.  She is, perhaps, the most charismatic person I have met and also far and away the most deeply disturbed.  (NSSI, dysphoria, visual and auditory hallucination, impulsive behavior, pathological lying, frequent rages, in appropriate relationships with ex lovers and so on and so forth)

I will always have extreme pity for her -I believe her life is a living nightmare.  Now... That being said to have stayed with her would have been tantamount to walking arm in arm through the gates of hell.  As much as I adored her I know she is for me Schedule 1 drug:  A drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse. I.e.  Addictive and ultimately dangerous.

...she wants us to be at least friends...

I could not bare to remain friends with my affair partner.  I care(d) enough for her that I do not want to see the horrible life choices which she is likely to make in the coming years. Even with my influence in her life she was self sabotaging and reckless.  Her friends told me I was a calming and soothing element for her 'They had never seen her actually be happy before me' --in other words before me she had been (even) worse. 

It dawned upon me during our final exchange 'If someone lies constantly -there is no point in speaking with them'.

My wife has been so understanding during the whole time that it brings tears to my eyes.

If you haven't done so -tell your wife this.  Even if you do not reconcile it would be a good thing for both of you if you acknowledge how special you find her understanding.

If you do decide to reconcile be very careful in disclosing your affair.  It is necessary, but it is not a confession in hope of absolution at the cost of your wife's emotional well being.  In other words disclosure is about regaining trust, not giving an overly vivid blow by blow account of your affair.  The disclosure is not about making you feel better, it is about rebuilding trust.  It is best to talk about the affair in couple's counseling in my opinion.  A good therapist can help keep the discussion on track and emotionally defuse it when necessary.  My wife has OC(PD) which made the disclosure process, perhaps, even more problematic for both of us. 

Trust and respect are the foundation of love -also these are the two things which are utterly impossible in a relationship with someone who is battling untreated BPD.

She's [wife] a woman to die for but if I went back, I'm scared that I would hurt her again, that's why I think that I can't do that, not in this moment.

You have an enormous amount on your emotional plate right now.  Take your time and don't make any rash decisions.  You are really quite fortunate your wife is willing to give you the time and space to heal.  Whether or not you decide to reconcile you are luck to have her as a positive force in your life.   

[Skip]

This is not a uncommon occurrence, ClearEyes. It's a road well traveled here. In my experience, more men pick door #2 than door #1 (#1 being wife, #2 being affair partner) and the situation gets worse and worse.

There are many here that can help you and share some great insight. I add on to what has already been said. Door #1 and #2 is false thinking. It's really about Door A and Door B.

Door A is to invest in your future.  Door B is to yield to your weakness.  Door A takes time, sacrifice, and belief in the outcome. Door B is looking for a quick fix, chancing a rainbow, buying a lottery ticket, going with you feelings.

Your marriage is damaged. Your affair is a mess. Your own mental health is on a roller coaster.  All of this is a result of years of doing the wrong things.

Sobering, yes. But not threatening. If I told you that you have cataract, that is sobering. It's not threatening, because you can resolve it with cataract surgery.  But that takes time, sacrifice, and belief in the outcome.

Are you ready to look for that solution, take the time, make the sacrifices? Are you ready for Clear Eyes?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear ClearEyes-

I noticed something I forgot to say.  In all you said about C, your affair partner, not once did you say that you felt “love” for her.

I’m so glad that Wicker Man and Skip have joined in here.

Please keep posting, ClearEyes.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[ClearEyes]

I truly appreciate your feedback and recommendations, thank you!

@Wicker Man

Yes, in fact I've started journaling because of this episode and I've found that also helpful, I will be continuing that. My therapist also suggested that I really should start practising self-compassion and that's something I recommend to everyone. This is a good place to start: https://self-compassion.org/

I'm also trying to keep myself busy by seeing my friends, exercising etc. but the most difficult feat seems to be just sitting at home alone, that's when the anxiety really hits.

What comes to disclosing the affair to my wife I'd say I've been quite honest to her the whole time and we also met 1-2 times per month and discussed about the situation when the relationship with my colleague was still going on. She hasn't wanted to know the details at any point but I've told her everything that she has asked. And you're right, I we're going to reconcile, it needs to happen with the help of counseling.

I will check those books you mentioned, thanks!

@Skip

Am I ready? That's an extremely good question. For my whole life I've been looking for quick fixes for my problems and now I'm in situation where there's none. Something needs to change radically what comes to leading my life, I don't know what other options I even have.

@Gemsforeyes

I'd say I fell in love with her but no, I do not love her. I know I love my wife and I know what love feels like, the feelings I have for C are different and I think they could be best described as obsession/addiction/infatuation/limerence. But it's a hell of a drug..

[Wicker Man]

...it [reconciliation] needs to happen with the help of counseling.

When we started couple's therapy I don't think either of us was certain whether we were going to reconcile or be finding closure.  After spending so many years together, 25 in our case, we both felt it was a worthwhile investment of time.  So even if you and your wife decide not to try again it might be worth spending some time together in counseling.

I was also an 'honest' cheater.  At no point did I feel any animosity toward my wife -the relationship had devolved into a domestic partnership.  We were great partners and friends, but there was no warmth or intimacy.  In fact I spent my last weeks, before I was to leave for good, doing maintenance around the house and making lists for my wife of the maintenance she was not aware of.   

Unfortunately, I had not realized how fallow our relationship had become until I had crossed the line of beginning an emotional affair (also with a work associate) in which I was swept away -to the extent of becoming engaged.  It sounds stupid to the point of embarrassing now -but she had made me happier than I had ever been and as you said it is drug like.  Ironically, her name translates to Dream Come True and I honestly thought she was.

What I would not give to have realized our marriage needed such a serious overhaul without the specter of my affair.  However, to be honest with myself I am certain there is no way we could have made the changes we have without the devastation of our circumstance^*. 

^* For those keeping score at home I DO NOT recommend an affair to fix a marriage...  Disclosure is a grizzly and painful process for all involved. 

...I've been looking for quick fixes for my problems and now I'm in situation where there's none... ...I don't know what other options I even have.

Oh... There are plenty of quick fixes for your situation -it is just none of them are good or healthy in the long term.  I feel repression is a lot like revolving credit -you can put off paying, but you end up paying a lot more the longer you wait. 

You sound like you are doing all the right things.  I chose to look at therapy as an exciting opportunity to learn and grow -but like all growth it can be painful or at least damn uncomfortable.  You are fortunate to have the insight to realize you want to change yourself for the better -that demonstrates real strength and you should be proud of this.

...the feelings I have for C [affair partner] are different [from love] and I think they could be best described as obsession/addiction/infatuation/limerence...

I absolutely adored my affair partner and her family.  We^* fell deeply in love -but I consider myself incredibly lucky to have realized how destructive she would likely have become had I chosen a different life path.  In the light of day my 'plan' was insane, but it certainly made sense at the time.

^* As far as I know she is still using my surname on her social media account and still wearing the ring I gave her.  She broke us up Christmas of 2017 -had my name tattooed on her hand 3 months later(!).  She is as lovely as she is a tragically lost soul...  BPD is a monstrously cruel disorder

[ClearEyes]

At no point did I feel any animosity toward my wife -the relationship had devolved into a domestic partnership.  We were great partners and friends, but there was no warmth or intimacy...Unfortunately, I had not realized how fallow our relationship had become until I had crossed the line of beginning an emotional affair (also with a work associate)

"Domestic partnership" is a great way to put it. My wife had become my best friend, when we were together we had really enjoyable conversations, we shared the same sarcastic sense of humor and in overall it was very easy and comfortable to be in her company. Yet, the time we could be physically together had become quite limited. She is very career oriented woman, also we both had our own separate hobbies and friends. Marriage had also become nearly completely sexless. And we both let that happen, we had started to take the marriage for granted.

Attention and sex were the two most important things that were lacking in our marriage in my opinion. Unfortunately instead of trying to work those issues with my wife I chose the easier escape route. And oh boy, there was no deficit of attention and sex what comes to the initial phases of my relationship with my affair partner. It seemed like her glimmering eyes couldn't see anything else but me. The way she talked about the "emotional bond and connection" between us made me blinded and miss all the warning signs. According to her the bond we shared was stronger than she had experienced ever before. What I've now read about BPD traits and emotional amnesia has made doubt if she had just blocked the memory of those feelings from her previous relationships. Then according to her the connection between us ended, as quickly as it had started, and after that apparently even me being near to her caused her anxiety and distress.  It's funny how our affair began as a joint getaway from our past lives and mental anguish and it ended as her getaway from me, the new source of her emotional pain. :/

[Wicker Man]

"Domestic partnership" ... nearly completely sexless...  ...career oriented... ...separate hobbies and friends... ...we had started to take the marriage for granted...

My wife has been diagnosed with OCPD which makes all of the above all but impossible to avoid.  I had tried and tried to work on intimacy in our relationship -but ended up sublimating that passion into my work.  I enjoy my career so much I had thought it was enough for me, and it was for over 20 years... but as I mentioned earlier repression creates a subconscious debt. 

I had tried to get my wife into couple's counseling for years to no avail.  We are now having conversations we should have had decades ago.  OCPD makes people appear very cold -My wife didn't say this, but it typifies the condition 'I told you I love you 3 years ago -if something changes I will let you know'.  No affirmation, no validation, and no time for sex.  There can be no fun until everything is done and as we all know things are never perfectly done in life.  In fact perfect is the enemy of done.

Attention and sex were the two most important things that were lacking in our marriage in my opinion. Unfortunately instead of trying to work those issues with my wife I chose the easier escape route.

We tried an experiment.  My wife said she felt pressured about sex all the time -so she would like to be the one to bring it up next.  I thought this was a great idea.  So...  I said to her 'We need to talk about sex.'  She said 'I was going to bring it up next'.  I said 'Sure, but that was 14 months ago'.  After a while I just gave up and dove into work.

According to her [affair partner] the bond we shared was stronger than she had experienced ever before.

This is the mind snapping thing about people with BPD traits.  I would bet my last dollar when she said this it was an absolute truth for her.  Dream Come True was utterly convinced that not only did we belong together, but it had been preordained from past lives.  Destiny.  She told me when she first saw me I was glowing from an inner light and everyone around me looked dark and grey.  It was powerful and the stuff of dreams. 

I styled myself as a cynic, but down deep I wanted to believe in fairytale love.  I work in entertainment and I had certainly used the idea to sell all manner of things.  It makes a great story and I believe it is somehow wired into our psyche.

...according to her the connection between us ended...

I have become a fan of A.J. Mahari.  She has recovered from BPD and as a result has marvelous insight into the disorder.  Have a look at this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYpH8VQmqSE

She is compassionate, but realistic which is all too rare when discussing a polarized topic such as BPD.  I have read shrieking accounts of the machiavellian plans of people with BPD 'supply' & 'replacement' as if people suffering from BPD wake up in the morning and decide to wantonly destroy the lives of those around them.  I have also read unrealistically positive notions of relationships with untreated sufferers of BPD.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle.  I have spent hours upon hours reading on Quora and Reddit what people with BPD have to say about themselves, I have spent countless hours here reading about people on our side of the fence.  Then I began reading all of the case studies I could get my hands on.  I have found some solace from this lust of understanding.  The disorder is shame and abandonment based and incredibly painful for this afflicted -they will do anything they can to elevate this psychic pain and the resulting dysfunctional defense mechanisms are hellish for those who love them.

...It's funny how our affair began as a joint getaway from our past lives...

I have come to have a suspicion I was meant to be an escape route from Dream Come True's current boyfriend.  She and I were working on a movie together, I was foreign, older  and married.  I believe subconsciously I was 'safe' because when the relationship ended there was all manner of plausible deniability for her -an example of people with BPD's propensity for self sabotage. 

Well... It didn't go that way.  We really fell in love.  She claimed I was her first real love -I am guessing I heard much the same as you did.  It is fascinating (in the instance I mean horrible) how similar the courtship dialogue is in the beginning of relationships with people suffering from BPD.  'One and only', 'always and forever', never, always, best, worst.  In my case half of this was in Mandarin.  BPD knows no cultural bounds and the manifestation and presentation seems to be all but identical.

What makes this so damn difficult to reconcile in my mind is she meant both the love and the vitriol with the same absolute passion.  I am not really sure what warning flags we are supposed to know about without prior knowledge of BPD.  Now? sure -I could recognize the behaviors from a mile off up wind on a moonless night.  What I saw in the throws of the beginning of our relationship was a woman who's work I admired and a kinship of 'circus people' working in the film industry.  I had been shooting movies in China longer than she had -so we had a lot of common ground.

I knew she was not an easy person -she had been, in my opinion, misdiagnosed schizophrenic and bi-polar when she was a little girl.  On the upside she is likely a genius, brilliant dancer, pianist, calligrapher and the finest SFX makeup person I have worked with.  I felt I was taking the good with the bad -in my experience there is no free lunch when it comes to artists of her caliber.  What I didn't know... she has an inability to remember the construct of love.   Out of sight out of mind or worse out of sight implies betrayal.  I would have put up with rages to have the good parts. 

“I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.” ― Marilyn Monroe

Since we ended still in the 'honeymoon phase' of our relationship.  I actually found her presence to be incredibly calming.  When we were together my resting heart rate would drop to about 55bpm .  I thought I had found the dream I had never dared to dream.  However... I now believe Dream Come True at her worst was far beyond my imagination or conception of terrible.  When in diffuse physiological arousal (fight, flight, freeze), or emotional dysregulation she is capable of true horror.  It is my suspicion in this state she falls into a limbic feedback loop -once she dysregulates it is hard for her to come back to baseline and in these moments there is no love, no history, no hope.

She likely saved my life when she broke up with me on the 11th hour.  I was here in the US wrapping things up and we were literally talking about how much money I should wire into her account to buy a house for her family (insane -I would have had no property rights in China).  I suggested waiting a little bit until the dust settled to actually buy a house I.e. establish a budget. 

She lost her mind -in retrospect I believe perhaps my wanting to create a budget was seen as abandonment.  She went into a 7 day rage and ultimately said 'We have nothing more to speak about'.  That morning 3 am I woke up with the epiphany 'She will leave you one day and there will be nothing you can do about it.'  I agreed with her to end our relationship -the next day I learned from a close friend of ours she went into a nearly catatonic non-responsive state and was hospitalized for a week.

We, her family included, were planning when we would have had a baby.  Were the relationship to have continued this would have created a visa, career, custody, and financial end of days for me.

I related this part of my story in an attempt to dispel any mythology you may have created around your affair partner.  These relationships are by and large not built to last. 

[ClearEyes]

Thanks for sharing Wicker Man, that's rough stuff indeed. I personally didn't experience that much the raging that you and so many other here on the forums describe. Accusations sure, but I think most of her rage and anger of  was targeted to herself, which probably makes her a "quiet" borderline. When I talked to her couple of weeks after the breakup she told me that she hadn't purged (she also had bulimia) after she ended the relationship with me. Of course that's great for her but it made me feel really horrible and responsible of her pain and her punishing herself, although I know that bulimia had started long before me.

I am not really sure what warning flags we are supposed to know about without prior knowledge of BPD.  Now? sure -I could recognize the behaviors from a mile off up wind on a moonless night. 

Yeah, when a woman who looks like she's sculptured by gods tells you that you're her soulmate and wants to share everything with you, it wasn't the suspicion of the forthcoming catastrophe that was the first thing on my mind. But from now on it most definitely will be. I remember seeing someone here on the forums saying "it's not just loss of a date, it's loss of a fantasy". That causes the devastation and desparation.

[Wicker Man]

...I think most of her rage and anger of  was targeted to herself, which probably makes her a "quiet" borderline.

I do believe we only see the tip of the iceberg when it comes to their pain.  Something about the inverse square law -the closer you are to something the intensity increases as a square.  She really only started to spool up into a rage once while we were together (-the rages were always when I was out of country).  I told her it was ok for her to be angry -further I told her I loved her whether she was angry, sad, or happy.  It broke her out of it. 

However... Before we met in a rage she once tore all the flooring and tile out of her grand parent's apartment.  To this day the floors and walls are bare concrete --she said she could not remember why she was angry...  She was raised by her grand parents and loves them more than life itself.  No one truly close to someone with BPD will be spared.

When I talked to her couple of weeks after the breakup she told me that she hadn't purged (she also had bulimia) after she ended the relationship with me. Of course that's great for her but it made me feel really horrible and responsible of her pain and her punishing herself, although I know that bulimia had started long before me.

Dream Come True said if she eats too much she ends up 'getting sick' so I am guessing she also flirts with some form of bulimia, although I never saw it.  Dream Come True is a cutter (NSSI) and for the bulk of our time together I had helped her to find other outlets for that pain (ice cube, rubber band, or just talking with me).  I was proud of that accomplishment.  In fact when it first came up I told her I could understand her cutting and she got quite angry, until I explained when upset I would run to feel physical pain. 

I told her I felt it was a similar mechanism -it is just mine is less scary, bloody and socially acceptable.  She tried to go running with me once -it took her 45 minutes to find her things and get ready. She looked like perfect the spandex clad running ninja... She made it 2 blocks -she had not run since dance school and has smoked a pack a day since she was 14.  We never spoke of running again...

...when a woman... ...tells you that you're her soulmate and wants to share everything with you, it wasn't the suspicion of the forthcoming catastrophe that was the first thing on my mind.

I should think not.  I guess there is something to the notion of 'Too good to be true'.  However, in the moment I felt like I would have been spitting in the eye of love to have walked away from what seemed like a match made in heaven.  Dream Come True is pretty in a green hair tattooed sort of a way -but it was her child like laugh and her otherworldly sensitivity with which I fell in love. I learned a new way of looking at art by seeing it through her eyes.  Sadly, I thought her outward appearance was the expression of an artist -unfortunately it seems it is fueled by a need to be chased.

...it's loss of a fantasy...

@Sadly wrote something to the effect of mourning the loss of something she never really had.  Yes -I fell in love with an artificial construct -a dream or illusion based on a faulty premise. 

'Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong' --Ayn Rand

My error was in presuming Dream Come True could sustain the loving relationship she so desperately 'needs'.  No one had ever told me 'I need you' before she did.  We spoke about this at length.  I tried to explain love should not overshadow the individual, but create a synergistic whole greater than the sum of its parts... We didn't.

[ClearEyes]

I tried to explain love should not overshadow the individual, but create a synergistic whole greater than the sum of its parts... We didn't.

Wise words, based on them I assume you don't have any codependency / anxious attachment issues? Because I do and I have hard time separating my own needs and emotions from the other person's. And as unhealthy as it sounds, I dare to say that part of my "fantasy" has always been the complete enmeshment with my partner. Initially the affair seemed like a relationship where I could achieve this. Partly it succeeded because now after the tumultuous spring I've probably lost myself more than ever before. The fact that I can exist and function without a relationship is something I need to heavily work on.

[Wicker Man]

...I assume you don't have any codependency / anxious attachment issues? Because I do and I have hard time separating my own needs and emotions from the other person's... ..."fantasy" has always been the complete enmeshment with my partner.

I was a parentified^* child and am certainly a people pleaser.  I believe I was raised to be co-dependent, but somehow I managed to have a 'line' hardwired into me.  For me the line in the sand is breaking up.  It has always been a non-starter for me, as it eliminates all chance for healing or rebuttal.  This wiring saved me from continuing on a dangerous path and making a grave and life altering mistake.  I had tried to explain mutually assured destruction to Dream Come True when I realized she kept her twitchy little finger poised on 'The button'.  Emotionally when overwhelmed she has a compulsion to just 'punch out'.  When not dysregulating she understood, but in the throws of rage there is little information flow to the frontal cortex the limbic system takes hold and the result is maelstrom.

^* My mother was lonely and made me an inappropriate confidant at a very young age.  She was doing the best she could but didn't understand the ramifications of this developmentally on a child.  This caused me to be empathetic, sometimes to a fault, and I certainly grew up very fast. 


I will give a friend the shirt off my back up until the point where I come to believe this friend does not have my best interests in his heart.  It takes me a long time to come to this conclusion -but I am able to. I definitely tend to give friends the benefit of the doubt over and over-likely for too long.

This relationship was the only one I was not able to 'turn off' when it reached its expiration date.  Never before had I suffered from such cognitive dissonance and rumination!  In the past once a relationship had run its course I was able to look at it as a valiant effort, but a survivable failure.  I believe it was Dream Come True's disparity between word and deed which has made this one so rough.

Some level of co-dependency is necessary in an intimate relationship -but too much of a good thing becomes problematic for both partners.  I had held on to the idea of 'childish love' for a long time. 'if I care for you the way I want to be loved -then you will love me that way too'.  In theory this should work out swimmingly...  A great idea which people are not up to.

The fact that I can exist and function without a relationship is something I need to heavily work on

You are doing this now with your separation.  Be proud of how challenging this sort of a change really is.  When I moved to an apartment it was the first time I had been a lone in over 25 years.  It was an 'adjustment' to be sure.  I work freelance, so there was not the structure of work to rely on -it was a tough time for me.  What compounded matters was the apartment was to be the place where Dream Come True and I would have stayed in the US.  She never saw the place in person.  I felt haunted by a ghost who had never darkened the doorstep.

There are a lot of factors to consider when considering whether or not to return to your marriage.  Don't let fear be one of them.  I am 53 so I felt I had to weight finances to a higher degree than I would have liked -but I did the best I could in creating a cost benefit analysis of life moving forward.  Take your time.  It sounds like your wife is being patient, so you should be patient with yourself too. 

--Just be very careful about contact with your affair partner.  If she does indeed have BPD traits 'that way lies madness'.  I am certainly not in the 'run' camp, but personally, as I mentioned, break ups are incredibly destructive -they seem to be part and parcel in relationships where one person suffers from untreated BPD. 

“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”

                                                                                               ― Maya Angelou


Dream Come True's propensity for closing her heart and opening her legs when stressed makes her dangerous and a relationship untenable.  She is the most lovely and deeply disturbed individual I have met (and I work in the film industry we don't lack for damaged people) -I dislike hyperbole, but somehow she makes it necessary.

[gizmo7247]

Thanks for sharing Wicker Man, that's rough stuff indeed. I personally didn't experience that much the raging that you and so many other here on the forums describe. Accusations sure, but I think most of her rage and anger of  was targeted to herself, which probably makes her a "quiet" borderline. When I talked to her couple of weeks after the breakup she told me that she hadn't purged (she also had bulimia) after she ended the relationship with me. Of course that's great for her but it made me feel really horrible and responsible of her pain and her punishing herself, although I know that bulimia had started long before me.

Hi ClearEyes,

Bulimia was a central theme in my relationship with my ex-BPD (4.5 years). She was in therapy for the bulimia, it was hardcore. Looking back, I was so focused on helping her with the bulimia that I think that's why I missed so many of the other warning signs and attributed all of her irrational behavior to the bulimia. My T told me the bulimia was a symptom of her BPD, not the other way around. And told me, and I've confirmed through others storys, that eating disorders are common with BPD.

I feel for you here - because the bulimia was a key hook of guilt she used against me. I changed my whole life, what food I kept in the house, where we went to eat, what I ate - all based on her bulimia. Once devaluation started, she started blaming me for her binging and purging. Either because I had done something to stress her out and make her do it, or because I'd left a trigger food around. It really messed me up in the head, and I felt absolutely horrible about it.

Mine was also a quiet borderline, until she got drunk (she had a bad drinking problem too) - then the rage really came out. Quiets have a lot of rage too, it's just kept under the surface.

[gizmo7247]

What I discovered during this exchange was my affair partner's utter lack of ability for any level of accountability or introspection.  This seems to be a hallmark of BPD.  She is, perhaps, the most charismatic person I have met and also far and away the most deeply disturbed.  (NSSI, dysphoria, visual and auditory hallucination, impulsive behavior, pathological lying, frequent rages, in appropriate relationships with ex lovers and so on and so forth)

It dawned upon me during our final exchange 'If someone lies constantly -there is no point in speaking with them'.
   

Wickerman - I just wanted to say thank you for sharing, I so relate to so much of what you said, and went through the exact same. The patterns are so shockingly similar. My exBPDgf's lack of accountability was excruciating to me - yet I kept hold on thinking she would change. I also struggled immensely with her actions vs her words, which NEVER matched.

I've adopted your last line a bit (I've seen you say it before), and hold on to it as an anchor of sorts. Even if she did give me the opportunity for a closure conversation, what's the point - I wouldn't be able to believe a word she said. You're absolutely right - what is the point of speaking to someone who constantly lies?

Thanks for sharing your experiences and your wisdom.
 

[ClearEyes]

There are a lot of factors to consider when considering whether or not to return to your marriage.  Don't let fear be one of them. 

To not make decisisions based on fear was in fact my new year's resolution. That's how I rationalized myself to leave my wife and go full yolo with my affair partner. :/ If we would now reconcile with my wife, I think one of the main reasons from my part would be the fear of not finding anyone nearly as good as she is ever again. That's why I try to maintain my composure and not rush with it.

--Just be very careful about contact with your affair partner.   

She texted me on Monday telling me our scheduled meeting on Friday is still on. I have a couple of scenarios in my mind how it will go:

1. She will cancel it on Friday morning -> I will feel like crap.
2. If we meet, there's 99% chance that she won't talk anything about our spring together -> I will feel like crap.
3. If she doesn't mention our romantic history, there's 90% chance that I will -> She will get angry, frustrated and unresponsive and I will feel like crap.

If my therapist knew how much time I'm nowadays spending here and other BPD related websites I'm sure she would be disappointed because I'm doing this mainly to ease my anxiety. So it's a compulsion that only feeds the anxiety in the long run. It doesn't make a difference how much I read about the subject, it doesn't make me achieve my goal, which I think still is to hear the words "I miss you, let's try again" from my colleague, no matter how toxic and dangerous that wish is. :/

[Wicker Man]

Thanks for sharing your experiences and your wisdom.
 

@gizmo7247 I have read it is unwise to look at our ex partner as two people -however I have continued to do so with the caveat of remembering the two are inseparable.  The good part of her is simply astounding -but the bad defies description. 

The utter destructive irony of someone saying 'I only told lies to protect you'.  From whom?  How can one reconcile 'loving' someone while at the same time knowing you are harmful to them?  The mental gymnastics involved in the day to day life of someone with BPD traits must be astounding. 

... I feel I have a bit of anecdotal experience... Wisdom?  ugh... anecdotally I learned bear mauling hurts...  avoid bears?  I think the hardest thing to process is her motivation was not hurt me, but it is in her nature.  The very nature which does her so much harm.

[Wicker Man]

To not make decisisions based on fear was in fact my new year's resolution. That's how I rationalized myself to leave my wife and go full yolo with my affair partner.

Ok... I will share with you some of the quotes which fueled and bolstered my near catastrophe...

Amor Vincit Omnia:  No no no.  We cannot love disorder out of someone.  A loving and stable home is curative for many maladies -but from my reading and experience BPD will be exacerbated in a loving relationship... until they suddenly leave.

'One must choose in life between boredom and suffering'.
                                                                                                     -Madame de Stael

This one is likely true.  However...  'suffering' is a big word with a lot of depth.  Spend some time reading on the bettering board or the parenting board here to garner a purview into the absolute depths of pain which a relationship with an undiagnosed and or un-treated person with BPD has to offer. 

'Ultimately we know deeply that the other side of every fear is freedom'.
                                                                                                     -Marilyn Ferguson

Ok... This quote is still pretty valuable taken in the right measure -but...  I still use my breaks when I am mountain biking.  Fear is not completely bad so long as it doesn't keep us frozen.  Frankly, I have always looked at fear as a friend and a motivator.  I am afraid at work constantly and it is the fuel which gets me out of bed in the morning.  Fear isn't bad so long as we are willing to accept it and face it.  Freedom can also be a double edged blade.

'To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering'
                                                                                                     -Nietzsche

I still have not been able to find any meaning nor benefit from my experience with Dream Come True -but pain, confusion and a bit of embarrassment.

 
excerpt from '29'

...He ventures into a labyrinth, he multiplies by a thousand the dangers which life as such already brings with it, not the smallest of which is that no one can behold how and where he goes astray, is cut off from others, and is torn to pieces limb from limb by some cave-minotaur of conscience...
                                                                                                     -Nietzsche

By god the meaning of this changed when I found myself in an apartment wondering what in the wide wide world of sports I had done to myself.  I am afraid, after years of reading this over and over, I finally truly understood Nietzsche's sentiment.

Once again...  I thought I knew suffering...  The week she ghosted me was the most shocking and painful time in my entire life.  Once again I hate hyperbole -but by god she created extremes.  My father literally died in my arms and it was painful to see, but emotionally was nothing compared to that week.  He was very sick and I expected him to die -death is part of life.  I did not expect my beloved companion to suddenly, and without provocation, turn on my like a cornered and injured animal.

'By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired'
                                                                                                      -Kafka

I had held this quote very near and dear to my heart since first reading it decades ago.  I believe this is why I found my experience with Dream Come True so humbling.  I opened my heart wide and offered her all that I am -and it was not enough to make her feel safe and secure and from what I have come to understand it likely never would have been.

'Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire'
                                                                                                     -Churchill
... She didn't.

I think one of the main reasons from my part [reconcile] would be the fear of not finding anyone nearly as good as she is ever again.

For us a major factor was irreplaceable shared history.  We are good at quite a few things as a couple.  We have literally never had an argument about money.  When we work on projects together we are in lockstep.  After my experience with Dream Come True I have learned to truly value being able to trust my wife implicitly.  My wife won't lie... even when she perhaps should E.g. If she doesn't like something I cooked... maybe a white lie would be ok...  Meh... you have to take the bad with the good...

If my therapist knew how much time I'm nowadays spending here and other BPD related websites I'm sure she would be disappointed because I'm doing this mainly to ease my anxiety.

I don't understand the idea of not sharing everything with one's therapist.  I approached therapy with utter transparency.  I figured there was no benefit for neither the therapist nor myself in me hiding anything.  My work is a fashion show, therapy was about me being as 'real' as I am capable. 

I worked very hard between sessions, not to impress him, but instead to get as much out of each session for myself.  He reciprocated by spending countless hours out of our sessions finding me books to read -and reading the books I found with which he hadn't been familiar.  As I live and breath my shirt was sweated through after every session.

Secondly -We are all here on BPD Family to alleviate anxiety.  Whether it is people still involved with their loved ones, those of us who left them and those who were left by them.  When one has a brush with BPD anxiety seems to be part and parcel. 

She texted me on Monday telling me our scheduled meeting on Friday is still on. I have a couple of scenarios in my mind how it will go:

1. She will cancel it on Friday morning -> I will feel like crap.
2. If we meet, there's 99% chance that she won't talk anything about our spring together -> I will feel like crap.
3. If she doesn't mention our romantic history, there's 90% chance that I will -> She will get angry, frustrated and unresponsive and I will feel like crap.

What is the common denominator in your list?  'I will feel like crap'.  I would like to offer an alternative.  Break the engagement and go on a hike Friday.  -Likely you will feel much better for it.

...it doesn't make me achieve my goal, which I think still is to hear the words "I miss you, let's try again"...  ...toxic ... dangerous...

There is a very reasonable chance she will say something to this effect -but...  She broke up with you when you (likely) needed her support the most.  Each break up and make up damages the relationship and there will be more if you join the paradise circus again.  Things cannot be unsaid and the pain of being abandoned cannot be easily forgiven -at least it shouldn't be.

When Dream Come True ghosted me I was so shell shocked I could not see it for what it was.  I could not fathom the swift brutality of such a callous and hurtful action.  It seemed so out of character from the woman I loved so dearly I could not process it.  It wasn't until a year later I began to see it as a 'break up'.  I wish I had seen it for what it was and ended things there and then. 

ClearEyes  I know Dream Come True would drop everything and we could try again if I were to send a single text.  This is a further sign of dysfunction -not true love.  The other week she had the guy she is living with send me a text message asking if I was ok after the earthquake here in California.  I sent the poor guy back 'You seem like a nice man and you must know contacting me for her is not the way to help her'. 

Dream Come True would blow this guy's life up and leave him without looking back if I sent her a note.  Good right?  NO!  The lesson to carry away from this is she is not only capable of this sort of mayhem -but she has done it before!  It was how we began for god sake. 

When we met she told me she had broken up with her boyfriend before the movie... Well... the poor guy flew 1500 miles and found the hotel she was staying in to talk with her face to face --because she likely ghosted him.  She was texting me while watching him cry over dinner.

People with untreated BPD can share some of the Factor 2 behaviors of a psychopath when they are dysregualted. 

How would you feel about your affair partner if this were a support board for psychopathy?  Just because BPD is a 'merely' a personality disorder -what used to be seen as an axis 2 disorder (the multi axis system is defunct as of DSM 5) does not mean BPD is not a very serious and dire mental illness. 

I know your affair partner is a human being and all human beings should be able to find love -but unless and until she decides to seek treatment she is incapable of a loving and healthy relationship.  She cannot do this for you nor anyone else  -she has to 'hit rock bottom' and decide her world view is harmful to her and others and seek therapy. 

I am being hard on you because I believe by spending time with your affair partner you are doing yourself harm.  You aught to be trying to clear your head and determining if leaving your marriage was right for you.  With your affair partner in the mix you will not be able to do so. 

[ClearEyes]

I don't understand the idea of not sharing everything with one's therapist.  I approached therapy with utter transparency.  I figured there was no benefit for neither the therapist nor myself in me hiding anything.  My work is a fashion show, therapy was about me being as 'real' as I am capable. 

I totally agree with you and I've been honest with her also. Yet the thing is that my therapist has also been on a vacation the previous couple of weeks but I will catch up with her about my "BPD discoveries" again next week. She always tell my to stop trying to fix my problems and digging deeper the hole I'm in. Instead I should be practising to accept and embrace the uncertainty, negative feelings and pain, otherwise I will be spending the rest of life with shovel in my hands.

She cannot do this for you nor anyone else  -she has to 'hit rock bottom' and decide her world view is harmful to her and others and seek therapy. 

She is currently seeking a therapist for depression and eating disorder. I don't know it how long it takes for medical professionals to spot the possible other underlying issues. If she wants she's very good at putting a facade on and hiding her true feelings and what's going on in her mind. For example when she was on a long sick leave earlier this year the initial diagnosis was "acute" depressive reaction although she had been suffering from mental pain for years.

You aught to be trying to clear your head and determining if leaving your marriage was right for you.  With your affair partner in the mix you will not be able to do so. 

I know you're so right in this one also..

[Wicker Man]

I don't know it how long it takes for medical professionals to spot the possible other underlying issues [bpd]. If she wants she's very good at putting a facade

From what I am to understand people with BPD traits are, as you say, very good at masking their symptoms and may not be forthcoming in therapy.  The disorder carries with it a lot of shame.  Dichotomous thinking may cause admitting a little bit of fallibility to be overwhelming. 

Dream Come True's very best friend is completely unaware of what she is like in an intimate relationship.  She took, at face value, everything Dream Come True said about her ex boyfriends.  When this friend was beseeching me to return to Dream Come True I carefully let her know some of what I experienced without demonizing Dream Come True in front of her friend.  The friend said 'I would have left her too'.  -just sad.

Not all therapists are created equal.  My wife's therapist could not keep OCPD and OCD straight in her head.  Beyond having similar names the two issues have some overlap, but little similarity.  E.g. OCD is not egosyntonic -people with these traits know their actions are not healthy.  OCPD is tantamount a worldview.

--My point there is no way of knowing the acumen of your friend's therapist and even the amount of awareness the therapist may have about personality disorders.  My therapist told me yesterday there are many of his colleges who will not treat people with personality disorders.  This strikes me as a bit mad.  It would be like being a mechanic and refusing to work on green cars.  ugh... people...



I am sorry you find yourself in this confusing and painful situation. 

[ClearEyes]

Not all therapists are created equal. 

True that. My colleague has been seing a psychologist via our occupational healthcare a few times and what she's told me about those meetings, I think they are only making the matters worse (like recommendations of what kind of people she should be sleeping with) although she's been very happy with those sessions. But it could be that I'm just jealous and I should be spending much more time evaluating what kind of therapy I'm receiving instead of ruminating about her recovery.

My therapist told me yesterday there are many of his colleges who will not treat people with personality disorders.  This strikes me as a bit mad. 

It could be that they just don't know how to deal with personality disorders. If that's the case, then it surely better that they're handing those patients over to someone who has the required knowledge.

I am sorry you find yourself in this confusing and painful situation. 

Thanks for your sympathy and understanding, it means a lot. 

[ClearEyes]

So, I met with my uBPD affair partner / colleague yesterday to catch up after not seeing each other in 5 weeks. She'd been busy during the summer having all kinds of dates, flings and sex partners like I assumed the case would be  (also one with another our married colleague so the plot is thickening). Despite the preparation for hearing these kinds of things it still felt a bit painful. We also talked really openly about our mental health issues and I also brought up BPD directly. I was afraid that she would take that as an accusation but instead she was curios about the subject. She told that she's always had this empty feeling inside her that she doesn't know how to fill except via other people. She also mentioned how she finds it exhausting that she has to every time adjust her behavior depending who's she dealing with (mirroring?). And finally she said in relationships, like in her marriage and in our affair, she always evantually finds her self enmeshed and lost and that's when the problems really start. After the discussion I'm now 97% positive that she would get BPD diagnosis is she would talk about these traits with professionals, which she hasn't done. And according to her she's now enjoying her life so much that she isn't bringing those up in the near future either. After discussing about her new relationships and BPD I felt relieved. I realized that it would never have worked out and I was happy it ended before getting deeper in to the pit with her.

Yet, I also enjoyed spending time with her yesterday. We had good laughs, drank wine (maybe too much) and I eventually ended up spending the night with her. I know this may get some of you judgemental, but having sex with her in "fwb"-manner made me also understood, that I can live my life without having it with her.

As a conclusion, I now see that the great moments we shared in the spring were sort of an illusion, they always come with a price, and she was never really mine to miss. But I'm happy that we most likely can be in friendly terms, she's a lovely person after all.

[Wicker Man]

I'm happy that we most likely can be in friendly terms, she's a lovely person after all.

I am glad you posted an update about your meeting yesterday.  I was wondering how it went.

Personally I am not good with 酒肉朋友 (wine meat friends).  Ironically... this is something Dream Come True and I spoke of -it means fair weather friends.  I say ironically because when she had an issue it sucked all the air out of the room -there was no room for anything else, god forbid I had some sort of a need at the time.  She was sadly indeed a 酒肉朋友.  My point being I am not sure what sort of a friend your affair partner could be to you in the future -far better a 'friend' than nemesis since you work with her on some level, but I don't see a healthy friendship in the cards, just a liability.

FWB...  Ok... I cheated on my wife and had an affair (filed for divorce and got engaged) so I am not going to presume any moral high ground (here comes the inevitable)... but I don't understand the idea of FWB.  There has never been sex without love for me -the idea confuses me.  If I don't care about the person I am with sex seems like it would be rather silly and pointless .  So much of my joy is based in empathy and the joy of my partner.  Actually... Dream Come True was completely confused it took us so long to get around to it (which this admission made me sad for her regarding all her previous boyfriends [likely an over statement of the people she slept with]).

A further danger will, or maybe better said, might be clouding your judgement in future decisions.  I mean not only psychologically, but physiologically.  A pregnancy or STI could change your life forever.  Since your affair partner seems to have the same difficulty Dream Come True has with men floating in and out of her life it makes her dangerous.  Add wine to the mix and it could be easy to make a life changing decision. 

I would not dream of sleeping with Dream Come True ever again.  Sure she is stunning in her way -but there would be nothing special about being with her anymore.  Truth be told with luck I will never see her again -yes I miss her, but she is seriously mentally ill and I cannot trust her when she dysregulates.  In her baseline state I know she still loves me and would not harm me...  Dysregulated she is capable of anything from NSSI, to suicide ideation, to violent rages and even full blown psychotic dissociation.  BPD is not something to be underestimated or trifled with.  If you recall the article I referenced about the overlap of factor 2 behaviors of psychopaths and people suffering from BPD when dysregulated.

The first time we were together she said 上来 (get on).  Perhaps I am a strange animal (or one who knows too much about statistics) but I declined the offer -I actually told her I care too much for her to do something that stupid.  Yeah... Not great for the mood -but I really did love her.

She was not and never had been on birth control and had just had an abortion 8 months earlier when her boyfriend and employer informed her he was married.  As a tragic note she had already picked a name and had been singing to the unborn baby.  Her life is full of tragedy of her own design.


It seems like my role in our discourse is to play Henny Penny -but the sky really can fall.  It fell on me and I felt crushed.  If I can help some one vicariously avoid the feeling I will.

I suppose my advice directly would be to eliminate contact with your affair partner and give yourself the room to figure out if leaving your marriage is really the right thing for you.  There is a level of intangible support you may still be getting from your wife which you would not feel the loss of until it is completely gone. 

I do not believe in the sanctity of marriage any more than I believe in fairytale love.  Both are artificial constructs and a gross shorthand.  Love takes work and a lot of it.  What I do believe in is the value of longterm relationships with a trustworthy companion --which are give and take.  If a marriage is unhealthy then it should be dissolved -but I wish people were willing and able to more actively fight for their marriages.  My wife literally used to say 'love doesn't take work -it happens or it doesn't'.    I was taken for granted in the literal sense of the word.  We did nothing to 'affair proof' our marriage.

It was granted or ordained I would stay with her no matter how cold, boring, and lifeless, and invalidating our marriage might become.  Now, thank goodness, we are both working on it.  She actually told me I was her 'perfect man'.  I thanked her, but then asked then why doesn't it feel like it.  She was not brought up to be kind to her husband (her mother was a monster) -we have a lot of work to do.  However I feel it is a worthwhile endeavor.

[ClearEyes]

Wicker Man, thanks for the advice and warnings, can't say I haven't thought about those risks also myself and I try to keep my guard up with her.

Although I said that I'm relieved that I've now seen the person she is and understood what role BPD patterns played in our relationship, I'm still struggling heavily to digest the difference between what her actions and behaviors are now compared to what they were in the beginning of the year. All the attraction, attention, yearning, love songs and poems she showed and sent to me are now replaced by a fact that she's searching for validation and something to fill her emptiness from every place possible: bars, Tinder, workplace (and with a good success). Her own opinion is that this kind of behavior helps her to enhance herself and better understand who she really is...

I remember when she told me that even the idea of me being infatuated with someone else would be devastating to her and how almost everytime we discussed about my feelings towards my wife it would make her collapse from the highest euphoria to deepest sadness. It's ironic how she's now encouraging me to live similar reckless single life than she's now living or how she now says that's she's happy if I can make my relationship work with my wife. But seasons apparently change, maybe I should as well.

[Wicker Man]

I'm still struggling heavily to digest the difference between what her actions and behaviors are now compared to what they were in the beginning of the year. All the attraction, attention, yearning, love songs and poems she showed and sent to me are now replaced by a fact that she's searching for validation and something to fill her emptiness from every place possible.

This is all utterly consistent for people suffering from BPD traits.  When she loved you she loved you on a level which a neuro-typical may not be able to understand -it is often all consuming for them.  

The BPD 'super power' is feeling more deeply.  They are, generally speaking, more empathetic and sensitive that 'healthy' people.  I have read it theorized it is this hyper sensitivity which made them prone to the disorder in the first place (different make up in the amygdala -part of the limbic system).  

It is my theory (anecdotal sample of one -very scientific...) new love and limerence is even more profound for them -it takes their pain away.  When the limerence fades the pain comes roaring back and then the tried and true defense mechanisms reemerge.  Splitting, dissociation, impulsive behavior and on the darker side dysregulation, rage NSSI and psychotic events.  Lacking in Object consistency they must live in a scary and confusing world -I have read where people with BPD once in treatment start doubting their own perception of reality.  Before treatment there isn't the ability for introspection to even question their distorted world view.

Her search for validation via random and dangerous sexual exploits is sad, desperate, and destructive.  People with BPD traits do not lack morals -they lack the fortitude to live up to them.  Their defense mechanisms create a shame spiral.  After a rage they often feel the devastation they have created, but lack the tools to self soothe and correct the behaviors (without treatment).  BPD is a study in irony and tragedy.  I read from a girl who loved her boyfriend deeply but said 'Oh poo I did it again' when she cheated on him in an impulsive outburst.

Sadly she will have to hit rock bottom if she is ever to seek help.  As mine wrote me once 'Remember I am young and beautiful'.  There will always be a next guy and the beat goes on...  He will statistically be a sadistic narcissist or a nice guy who lacks the wherewithal to walk away as I did.  I am a 'nice guy people pleaser' with a razor sharp line in the sand when it comes to relationships

Her own opinion is that this kind of behavior helps her to enhance herself and better understand who she really is...

ummmm.  You see the insanity of this notion right?  Her behavior is demeaning, pathetic and sad.  If I didn't know Dream Come True better I could have thought she was a free spirit -no.  She is empty, sad, and desperate.  What is worse this emptiness cannot be filled from without -only she can create a foothold for a healthy life if she so chooses.  She will in all likelihood be unable to.

...she's now encouraging me to live similar reckless single life...

I am just some random guy on the internet giving you advice... So take everything I say with a grain of salt... But think carefully before you take life coaching advice from someone who may be seriously mentally ill (I mean her, not me, in this case to be perfectly clear...)

She does not sound like a positive force in your life.  If you really loved her step away.  I, personally, could not stand to watch the slow motion train wreck  Dream Come True's life will likely become.  In China everything does not have to be ok.  Sure yours will not be in the same peril -but she will likely make a mess of her life and it will be very likely painful to observe.

--if she doesn't take you down in flames with her.

[ClearEyes]

Her search for validation via random and dangerous sexual exploits is sad, desperate, and destructive.  

I know and I regret I didn't say it aloud how much hearing that hurt me. Instead to avoid conflict, like I always do, I just acknowledged that she's right that it's good for her to experience freedom after spending ten years in marriage and six months with me. But damn, I feel so upset, sad and anxious about it. I understand she's broken inside but it's so hard to realize that the way she told me how special I and our connection was didn't in the end matter anything. She's been with someone new, or should I say a lot of someones, from the moment our relationship ended (maybe even earlier). Or is this normal post-divorce behavior and I'm just over-interpreting things?

I'm also wondering if I should warn our co-worker who she apparently has now slept with at least once what's coming his way. He has a wife and kids and is now seriously considering to end his marriage. According to my affair partner she had told him not to do that but I obviously know how big the temptation can be. It's starting to feel like a nightmare. :/

I also wonder how she in the first place managed to be in a relationship the last ten years with her ex-husband. I'd really love to hear the version of the so called "controller & manipulator" aka ex-husband what their relationship/marriage was like from his perspective.

[ClearEyes]

The BPD 'super power' is feeling more deeply.  They are, generally speaking, more empathetic and sensitive that 'healthy' people.  

When we first met she was like the most empathic and caring person I knew. Now it feels she's not thinking about the consequences of her actions to other people (or herself) at all. Maybe it's because of BPD, maybe it's because of the strong SSRI dose she is nowadays taking, maybe the combination of them both.

One the main reasons to leave me according to her was that I was too clingy and I also should find the anchor from within me. It's great how she's now living the way she preaches (not).

Ok, this might not be the most objective website for BPD information but I guess this post has still some truth in it:
www.bpdmadness-sexliesandbpd.com/12-broken/

[Scarlet Phoenix]

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