It was a rough weekend but I managed. Part 3

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Mod Note:  This thread is a continuation of   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339441.0;all

I had no idea that the hang up thing had such an impact.

Red - Wow 75 days ((Hugs) I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you that she comes around...maybe with the holidays coming?

Enabler & Gadget - Thank you!  I'm trying.

Update from last night:  Went to see "T" mind you we both see him separately now and we use to see him together before.  He said she is in a very bad place and not understanding things like why she can get so mad at me and hold on to that anger forever and let it spill into daily things and can't move on or get over it and yet with her co-workers she can get mad at them but let it go.  (That's one thing that's always bothered me...you can let things slide with friends and co-workers but now with your wife?)  He also mentioned she was struggling with sending me the text she sent yesterday wishing me good luck at my appointment.  He said she was talking about this like 3 days ago to him that she didn't want to send me a text because she didn't want to mislead me "that she cares"...like WHAT THE...Does she really think that a simple Good luck at your appointment text is going to make me think she's coming back?  He said she struggled so much with sending it or not that most of the appointment that's what they talked about.  He said she has some deep issues that they need to dig into and they are only just starting to scratch the surface.  I asked him how someone can just completely shut down after a 10 year marriage.  He said it's self preservation and that's how she's had to deal with things in her childhood. Then I said things like if we manage to work through this, how do I know she's not going to leave again when things get hard.  He told me he's known me to 3+ years and my character is to never give up and that I'm a fighter.  Basically he told me all the things you guys have told me.  Lay low, let her reach out to me, don't let things escalate if a conversation gets heated.  We also talked about the sex things, he reiterated "it's definately not you SH4, trust me".

Well the weekend is here...I hate the weekends now.

Thanks for listen guys, I really appreciate it.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

Mod Note:  This thread is a continuation of   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339441.0;all

I had no idea that the hang up thing had such an impact.

Red - Wow 75 days ((Hugs) I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you that she comes around...maybe with the holidays coming?

Enabler & Gadget - Thank you!  I'm trying.

Update from last night:  Went to see "T" mind you we both see him separately now and we use to see him together before.  He said she is in a very bad place and not understanding things like why she can get so mad at me and hold on to that anger forever and let it spill into daily things and can't move on or get over it and yet with her co-workers she can get mad at them but let it go.  (That's one thing that's always bothered me...you can let things slide with friends and co-workers but now with your wife?)  He also mentioned she was struggling with sending me the text she sent yesterday wishing me good luck at my appointment.  He said she was talking about this like 3 days ago to him that she didn't want to send me a text because she didn't want to mislead me "that she cares"...like WHAT THE...Does she really think that a simple Good luck at your appointment text is going to make me think she's coming back?  He said she struggled so much with sending it or not that most of the appointment that's what they talked about.  He said she has some deep issues that they need to dig into and they are only just starting to scratch the surface.  I asked him how someone can just completely shut down after a 10 year marriage.  He said it's self preservation and that's how she's had to deal with things in her childhood. Then I said things like if we manage to work through this, how do I know she's not going to leave again when things get hard.  He told me he's known me to 3+ years and my character is to never give up and that I'm a fighter.  Basically he told me all the things you guys have told me.  Lay low, let her reach out to me, don't let things escalate if a conversation gets heated.  We also talked about the sex things, he reiterated "it's definately not you SH4, trust me".

Well the weekend is here...I hate the weekends now.

Thanks for listen guys, I really appreciate it.

SH4

[Enabler]

SH4, I don't know you or your W other than the things you have written on here (I don't want to be false validation for you), however, based on what you have told us on here your T has a good measure of the two of you. That's very important. I would say though that it's not massively professional of your T to be mentioning things that your W is struggling with (especially since you are now separated) or even things that are discussed in her T sessions. That's her business unless she has specifically said she would like that to be shared. What information is he sharing about you? That all said, his guidance sounds good, suggesting you stay centred (chillaxed, non-smug) and potter about your business.

Words and messages hold an enormous amount of meaning to a person with BPD traits. They may well use words with such venom and destructive force when dysregulated but they also ruminate on messages and implied meaning that they might send but also that they receive. This is why it's important to buy time and consider how she may well take each and ever message you sent. Another member on another thread discussed a very very long string of messages recently, it started well and seemed like the couple were connecting... but it suddenly flipped for seemingly no reason. I would implore you to avoid discussing the relationship or feelings at this time especially whilst she's still hot and especially whilst the T is doing his work.

T is very much like peeling back an onion. Each layer is painful, but feels liberating and can bring a feeling of elation... often patience reach a point where they have peeled off enough layers and feel liberated enough that they don't need T anymore... they may also feel like they are getting far far far too close to the rotten bit in the middle, the rotten bit they've been protecting for years and years, the source of their trauma. The mind is capable of putting up massive cognitive defences around this rotten core including amnesia, often the core is soo painful that unpeeling it can feel like utter obliteration. Expect some serious tsunamis, educate yourself, learn the communication tools and action plans as and when you may need to stop conversations and prepare your emotional defences. You are strong, I think you will stand for your marriage and you will be there for her if/when she comes out the other side, but you need to prepare for this.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

That's very important. I would say though that it's not massively professional of your T to be mentioning things that your W is struggling with (especially since you are now separated) or even things that are discussed in her T sessions. That's her business unless she has specifically said she would like that to be shared. What information is he sharing about you?

Enabler,

Even though we are seeing him separately (because we fight when we are in there together), he still considers it MC and we agreed that we/he can share the information back and forth in regards to our marriage.

Also, as I have maintained in the past... I think she's seeing someone else (this has always been her pattern, she's never left a relationship without having someone waiting)...this will add a whole new dynamic to an already complicated situation.
I'm expecting soon to receive the "we need to file divorce papers NOW)...

SH4

[Enabler]

Hope the weekend is going well and you’re finding it easier than last weekend.

Re the potential divorce conversation... she doesn’t need to ask you to do the papers, she can make that choice and action all by herself. I’d be very much “well that’s up to you if that’s what you choose to do”... in fact that’s exactly the attitude I have taken.

Sitting here watching my W in the garden on her phone playing WhatsApp ping pong with her lover... siiiiiiiiigh... PLEASE READs!

[Stillhopeful4]

Good morning,

The weekend was still difficult.  I did see her a few times and we did talk a little.  She seems like she's getting very down on herself and she feels like as someone in her mid 40's that she's a failure.  Really beating herself up bad.  I tried to use SET, but it was so hard in the moment.  She did text me a few times last night and she stressed she doesn't want to mislead me.  I had several friends invite me to go out this weekend, but I didn't want to.  I don't want to hear the "you are better off without her" BS.

Enabler - Sorry you had to watch your wife doing that.  That has to be so difficult for you.  ((HUGS)

SH4

[Enabler]

Mehhh, nothing new there. I can only hope that it's emotionally tormenting her.

Would be great to have a bit of he said she said on some of these chats with your ex. I hear you on the "I don't want to get your hopes up line", maybe this is true, but at the same time I'm sure this is a case of reaffirming to themselves they knew what they were doing in the first place rather than anything you need to listen to. I've heard that many many times but it's usually "We're still getting divorced". She very much fights any progress. I treat it as a throwaway comment. Funny thing is, only she might think that a conversation like that might mean we're getting back together, only she thinks that it's okay to just 'poof' and it's all fine again.

The weekend sounded tough but okay. That's good to hear. I'm with you on the "You're better off without her BS"... I know I probably would be in some shallow respects, but in other respects not... and what these helpful people tend to forget is 22 yrs or 10yrs in your case is a long time to share a narrative, even if it's been an f'd up one.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

So a little more detail.  My son got hurt over the weekend and she made him his favorite meal and brought it over for him last night.  He loved it and then she stayed and chatted with me for about an hour.  When she left we were both is tears.  She said she feels like a failure in many areas of her life, especially with relationships.  I replied by saying something like... aww babe it must be hard to feel that way and that I don't see her like that and gave her examples of the good things she does.  She came back with it's not my responsibility to make her feel better and she needs to deal with it.  She also apologized for not being able to give me what I need (intimacy..not just sex...hand holding, little kisses etc.) and owned that if she did maybe things wouldn't have gotten so bad.  Then I told her some nice things about what I'm feeling and hopeful we can figure it out and have a future together and she replied...she don't know what to believe or how to trust what I'm saying/feeling is real.  One of the other things she said was she doesn't know how to leave all this horrible hurt in the past and move forward with me and be able to trust that I won't hurt her again.  (Little background... I've never cheated...never done anything like that but she has several times, she says it hurts her so much if I get mad at her for anything at all...that's what she doesn't trust)  I tried to explain that getting mad every so often is OK.  You get mad, you talk it out you get over it and you move past it...she says she doesn't know how to do that and one thing snow balls into another.

Bad news is the kid is most likely out for the rest of the soccer season, so besides the fact he's so upset, that also means I won't get to see her at games a few times a week.

SH4

[Enabler]

Arggg that's very annoying on both levels. Hope he's okay and it's nothing too serious.

These are really great chats to have and certainly the first part of the conversation was great. She does know that she is a good slug of the problem and it's okay if you let her sit with that for a while and maybe she'd be inclined to think about it a bit more. I might have been inclined to drop the "we can try and work it out and have a future together" bit for now and instead be neutral with regards to the direction the relationship might take. She was beating herself up and pushing slightly, which means you should have been pushing ever so slightly or being neutral. Only when she pulls should you pull hard. Note when you pulled and starting talking about resolution she pushed.

You can't believe you for her? She physically cannot climb into your head to check what you are saying is true, that's impossible.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

She was beating herself up and pushing slightly, which means you should have been pushing ever so slightly or being neutral. Only when she pulls should you pull hard. Note when you pulled and starting talking about resolution she pushed.

Can you tell me more about this push/pull dynamic?  I don't think I understand and and I can't tell when it's happening in order to "pull hard" when she's pulling?

Thank you~

SH4

[Enabler]

Your relationship is very push pull... it's with a person who has naturally rapidly cycling emotions.

Instinctively when someone is pushing (saying the relationship is rubbish, they're hopeless and you're untrustworthy) we tend to try and rescue them i.e. to tell them things aren't that bad, that they aren't the problem and that we can sort this all out. This is the language of push...

Pull is coming over, making nice meals for your son and generally wanting to sit next to you at the football and chat. It's likely to be less overt than the push because after all, she wants to save face and backtracking now would be a huge climb down and something she's not likely ready for.

If we put this in the context of validation, you telling her that you can work through a terrible situation is like telling a 3 year old that it's too late in the day to eat the massive bag of sweets they've just been given at a birthday party... you are telling them something that is the polar opposite to what they feel.

So... in essence you want to agree with the push things with a slight push and accept the pull things with a big pull.

You're mirroring hey mood consciously but varying the levels on each side... let out some rope when they're pulling, pull in as much as possible when they hand it back.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

So... in essence you want to agree with the push things with a slight push and accept the pull things with a big pull.

You're mirroring hey mood consciously but varying the levels on each side... let out some rope when they're pulling, pull in as much as possible when they hand it back.

Ok I think I understand the push part...but not the pull...you said her making him dinner was her pulling?  And I should in turn meet that with a BIG PULL?  What does that mean, what should I have done?  What would be considered a BIG PULL?

Thanks,
SH4

[Enabler]

You did the right thing... she came over, you talked... that's good behaviour and you pulled. she wanted to be closer to you and your son and you let her. You could have said "no, get lost"... that would be pushing a pull

[Stillhopeful4]

Ahhhhh got it!

Thank you for explaining!

SH4

[once removed]

Instinctively when someone is pushing (saying the relationship is rubbish, they're hopeless and you're untrustworthy) we tend to try and rescue them i.e. to tell them things aren't that bad,

this is an important point i wanted to echo.

listening with empathy is the number one thing we can do in our relationships to build trust. sometimes its the hardest. we tend to argue or insert our perspective (sometimes theres a place for that, sometimes its better to just listen). its sort of like responding to someone with "it could be worse" or "youre better off without her". well meaning, not always helpful.

master this skill, it will take you far in all your relationships: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

[Enabler]

And to add to once removes point... you will mess this up, unless you’re an absolute genius you will not perfect this overnight. Don’t beat yourself up about it and keep coming back here with successes and failures. You’ll get to the point where you’ll maybe mentally review the interaction and say ahhhhhh I should have said that or ahhhhh I shouldn’t have said that. I’m nowhere proficient at this but getting better.

Remember this doesn’t come overnight and it’s a new skill. Be patient with yourself

[Stillhopeful4]

And to add to once removes point... you will mess this up,

Yeah I think I messed this one up big time.  I was telling her all wonderful things about her to try and lift her up because she seems to be going really hard on herself.  Ughhhhhh

[Stillhopeful4]

Also, I forgot to mention from our conversation on Sunday... she said she's seen such a change in my attitude lately and that I seem "different" and where am I learning all of this from.  I felt a little guilty not saying I get help from my BPD board friends, but I knew that wouldn't go over well.  So I said I've been reading a book (which is true) The High Conflict Couple and that I've been using the "tools".

I don't know if her noticing a change is a good thing or a bad thing.  Thoughts?

SH4

[Enabler]

Her noticing a difference is a good thing... because it means you're changing, and that's ALWAYS a good thing. You're learning and your learning is being effective. What she decides to do with that change is up to her... either way it's a positive change for you and the interactions you have with her and other people. I'd not focus too much on whether or not you got things right or wrong, or whether or not the outcome is as you expect or want... you're changing and you're changing for the better and that can only be a good thing.

FWIW I don't think you messed anything up BIG TIME... maybe you used to, but you did many things that worked in the interaction. Try not to judge yourself too critically, just critique and say "I could have handled that in a different way which would have been more effective." You've been beating yourself up for too many years already.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Thanks Enabler,

It's all just so hard...and not knowing if you are doing right or wrong, ok maybe not "wrong" but doing things that will make things worse...it's just very hard.  I've been getting a little down on myself today.

Thanks for your support.

SH4

[Birddog]

SH4,

You are on right track, change is easier for you, and you recognize changes needed to be made for things to get better.

The rules have changed, and she  is trying to figure them out.  You are different, probably working on a healthier attachment style, and your relationship is evolving, and new patterns are harder to accept for her.

Maybe consistency is the key? Still wrestling with this one.

[Enabler]

Maybe redefining what is right and wrong would help. At the moment it would seem that right and wrong is defined by things like ‘the relationship recycles’, ‘she’s not mad with me’, ‘she’s not mad at herself’... look at those things and tell me, can you control any of them? They’re all focussed on her feelings which we’ve concluded before are not really a concrete foundation with which to base things.

Maybe redefine right or wrong to your values. What are your values? Who do you see yourself as being and what rule book are you going to make choices from?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Maybe redefine right or wrong to your values. What are your values? Who do you see yourself as being and what rule book are you going to make choices from?

Enabler,

Those are some hard questions I am going to have to really think about.

Update:  She mentioned the "D" word yesterday over text.  She was talking about medical insurance and how it's open enrollment in a few weeks and should she get her own insurance.  I told her I didn't think it was necessary because she's covered under mine and why would she want to take on a $400 a month expense if she didn't need to.  She replied with if I don't do it now I won't be able to do it for a year or until the divorce is final (mind you we haven't filed...said we were going to give it some time and see how she feels).  I told her I didn't think it was something we needed to deal with right now, but that she needed to decide what was best for her and to let me know.

I'm struggling not seeing her, I really miss her and because of the boy's injury and not playing in games I don't know when I will see her again.

SH4

[Enabler]

Just because she mentioned the D word, doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon. Like many things in BPD land everything is NOW NOW NOW NOW and very black and white... she either applies now or she doesn't apply EVER. The rational thing to do as you suggested was to hold off and she will have another opportunity in line with "life changes" which most employers will allow.

You did the right thing suggesting she kick the can down the road and paving a way for her to delay decisions  till later especially if they are financial commitments.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Like many things in BPD land everything is NOW NOW NOW NOW and very black and white

Thank you for that clarification Enabler.  I was going to ask about the "NOW NOW NOW".  In our whole relationship she has been like this.  If she makes a decision, that's it she's done and needs it to be done and over NOW NOW NOW.  For example one time we moved our business and she needed to get moved in like 1 day.  Then a few years ago when we decided to close, she just wanted to close that day, but we couldn't and needed to give notice etc, but for that last month she didn't want to be there and just needed to get it "over with".  So this is common with BPD?

Thanks in advance.

SH4

[Enabler]

Feelings = Facts and typically those feelings are strong and binary. I either love it or I hate it... you're either the best or the worst. Due to that lack of grey. I'm not sure how this feeds into impulsivity and I think that the DSM refers to is often the kind of impulsivity which is about making themselves feel better... e.g. they impulsively slept with the first person they saw at a bar because they wanted to sedate their negative feelings... BUT I guess it can also be applied to decisions about business or relationships which are emotional. Because it's really bad they want OUT NOW... and it's a life or death NEED.

Funny though, when the tables are turned they can't see any urgency for meeting our needs.

HOWEVER, if you can take the emotion out of the situation the decisions become very much more shame and guilt orientated. The feelings are still there but rather than running to the lake on fire, I find my W is more procrastinating as to what dressing to put on the burns. She was definite that she wanted a divorce and had to GET OUT NOW NOW NOW, but over time seems to be torn with the feelings and maybe consequences of the outcome she wanted so much... so she procrastinates and flip flops with regards to what to do. She likely still wants out because that is her feeling which is based on a carefully constructed narrative that supports the NEED to be out of the relationship (and likely with the OM) but since she's not 'on fire' anymore she thinks more about the emotional outcomes of her desires... and gets stuck.

When your W was in the relationship she was on fire in a burning building. Now she's out of the building maybe she might become a little more wishy washy about the concept of letting go of her security blanket (you) and jumping out into the big bad world. She wanted fantasy... but doesn't so much want reality. You may find that she tries to prop up and keep her fantasy and reality apart... you're seeing her do that by intermittently accusing you of being abusive, reinforcing to herself that she HAD to run out of the building to save herself AND that it's still 'on fire'. This comes across in comments like "See, that's why I can't be with you anymore!" "See, that's how you've been abusing me for 22 years!".

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Enabler,

That all makes a lot of sense.  Thank you for sharing that viewpoint!

Funny though, when the tables are turned they can't see any urgency for meeting our needs.

Also, funny how if I ever cheated on her it would be OVER OVER and she would never talk to me again, however because she's cheated several times, she claims the reason was my fault.  I've done stuff to push her away...I ask what and she can't name it?

she might become a little more wishy washy about the concept of letting go of her security blanket (you) and jumping out into the big bad world.

I'm finding her wishy washy about several things.  For example, she has one of the dogs and I have the others, we occasionally send snaps back and forth.  Today I sent one and when she opened she asked me to send a pic of a particular dog and then followed it up with I really miss them.  (I took that as a little pull, so I took your advise and pulled harder) and said you can visit them anytime, I'm sure they would love to play catch.

Thoughts?

SH4

[once removed]

however because she's cheated several times, she claims the reason was my fault.  I've done stuff to push her away...I ask what and she can't name it?

can you tell us more about this?

how many times did she cheat? how did you respond? what did she have to say about it?

[Enabler]

(I took that as a little pull, so I took your advise and pulled harder) and said you can visit them anytime, I'm sure they would love to play catch.

You're getting the hang of it.

[I Am Redeemed]

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