It was a rough weekend but I managed. Part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339397.0

Do you know anything about invalidation? It's a terrible head ache but something like "yes, that's one option" (in a valid way not sarcastic manner... it's not as though her opinion on what to do with your son actually matters or will be implimented) and drop the conversation. Basically, wrap up the conversation as quickly as possible and change the subject to something very very neutral. In essence you're fuelling her emotional fire by partaking in these conversations. She is hooking you in and she's cognitively way way way ahead of you. I struggle. I find myself down rabbit warrens too late and have to reverse thrusters to get the heck out of there.

I need to work on this...I don't much about it but I'm trying to learn.  I feel like I'm always having to justify why I do things to her.  Ughhhh This is so hard.

Next bit is that you're going out of your way for her. That's fine, it is what it is, but what's with the extra treats? Take the dog food... that's it. She's looking after herself, you're looking after yourself. You're both looking after the dog. Boundaries are not just for her, they are for you as well. Know where you should stop. The treats are an attempt to pull, she wants to push. Remember what I said about small push back, big pull together. It might be out of character for you, but you need to evolve as well.

I know, I'm use to buying EVERYTHING and spoiling my family.  I'll try my best to not do this anymore.

you're there for your Son. He's the most important person there.

Yes, this is very true.  I need to remember that.  Thank you!

This is all so very hard.  In all of it all I have ever wanted was for her to want me.  I don't ever think she will.  That makes me very sad.

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339397.0

Do you know anything about invalidation? It's a terrible head ache but something like "yes, that's one option" (in a valid way not sarcastic manner... it's not as though her opinion on what to do with your son actually matters or will be implimented) and drop the conversation. Basically, wrap up the conversation as quickly as possible and change the subject to something very very neutral. In essence you're fuelling her emotional fire by partaking in these conversations. She is hooking you in and she's cognitively way way way ahead of you. I struggle. I find myself down rabbit warrens too late and have to reverse thrusters to get the heck out of there.

I need to work on this...I don't much about it but I'm trying to learn.  I feel like I'm always having to justify why I do things to her.  Ughhhh This is so hard.

Next bit is that you're going out of your way for her. That's fine, it is what it is, but what's with the extra treats? Take the dog food... that's it. She's looking after herself, you're looking after yourself. You're both looking after the dog. Boundaries are not just for her, they are for you as well. Know where you should stop. The treats are an attempt to pull, she wants to push. Remember what I said about small push back, big pull together. It might be out of character for you, but you need to evolve as well.

I know, I'm use to buying EVERYTHING and spoiling my family.  I'll try my best to not do this anymore.

you're there for your Son. He's the most important person there.

Yes, this is very true.  I need to remember that.  Thank you!

This is all so very hard.  In all of it all I have ever wanted was for her to want me.  I don't ever think she will.  That makes me very sad.

SH4

[gadget]

I hear you SH4 and I'm very sorry you are going through this.

I'm the same as you in many of your recent comments.  I stopped doing for her.  Do all for me and my son.  It does get easier to manage the day to day.  I'm reading another book I heard mentioned here "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me".  Really gives me more insight.  The book does say with or without therapy it is a long road for a BPD person to turn around if they can.  All we can do is be patient and practice self care.  No act we can do for them, nor anything we can say will change them back to what we used to know.  They have to come to that on their own.  Through their own trial and error.

As my therapist said.  In my case, it took my wife 25 years to get to this state.  It will take a long time to get better.

We are here for you.  Hang in there.

Gadget

[Stillhopeful4]

Thanks Gadget,

That does help put things into perspective.  I was think about you last night, did you put your wedding ring back on?

SH4

[gadget]

I did, then took if back off.  I' still on the fence.  I want to.  Many say do it.  My daughter 27 (who is very unhappy with my wife/her mom right now), says no, why bother.

So, I'm thinking on it.  Not that I fear any negative repercussions from it.  Just want to be sure it is what I want.  My wife will be over tomorrow @5am for his bath.  SO ...   I'll think more on it.

Gadget

[Enabler]

SH4, the thing is, I’m not sure you can love your way out of this one, giving gifts and doing nice things is like chucking time effort and money down a bottomless well. Love for a pwBPD is often defined by the things you didn’t do or give or say or the handful of negative things you did or say rather than the whole bunch of stuff you did etc.

Being kind and reasonable is a personal choice which is admirable. Going the extra mile to ‘make’ someone love you or feel loved in the hope that this love is reciprocated is foolhardy and likely to not only be ineffective but also hurt you when these actions are not mirrored. I don’t know if you have read anything about love languages. It’s a Christian book called ‘love languages’. The 4 love languages are, acts of service, words of affirmation, touch, and gifts. We all may receive and give love using all the languages but often we have a favoured one. Often these love languages can be traced back to our childhood as to how we felt love or how we gained love. My language to hive love is acts of service whereas my love language to receive love is words of affirmation and touch. I used to play well on the football pitch and my dad would hold me round the shoulders as I came off and would say “well done son, you played well”. I would do many many acts of service for my W and she rarely reciprocated with words of appreciation or a loving touch, I felt unloved and under appreciated. Similarly we hurt others with our love language. So for example I would use words of criticism and not touch, simples, the best way to hurt you is the way that I would feel most hurt!

Invalidation, is the opposite to words of affirmation especially to a pwBPD. In effect you’re saying to someone “you’re wrong”. Most adults will get over this pretty quickly, but not so much someone who is emotionally sensitive. Emotionally sensitive people we hear “YOU are wrong” instead of “you did a wrong THING”. Acute difference, enormous outcome difference. There’s lot of information in the tools section in the top. Some say that 1x invalidation is worth 10x validation, so you really want to avoid real or perceived invalidation even if there’s nothing to validate and agree with.

There’s a lot to learn and take in, take you time and go slowly, you will mess up. But, you’re going to in a better place than you were.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

I did, then took if back off.  I' still on the fence.  I want to. 

Good luck to you in making your decision ((Hugs)

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

There’s a lot to learn and take in, take you time and go slowly, you will mess up. But, you’re going to in a better place than you were.

Thanks, I sure hope I'm going to a better place because the place I am in is miserable.  I'm trying, I'm learning, but it doesn't seem I'm executing it very well.  All I can do is keep trying.

Thank you all for  your support!

SH4

[gadget]

I know it's hard SH4.  Hardest thing I have done in my life.  But through reading books on BPD, co-dependency, therapy.  it all gets better.

These days I focus on me 1st, and my daughter, special needs son, 5 month old grandson, and son-in-law that all live with me.  I pretty much forget about my wife and live my daily life keeping busy.  I respond when she calls or texts me, but that is all.  In this time it is easier to pretend she doesn't exist until she needs something from me.

I know nothing I say or do will change her mind at this time.  So I only say or do the minimum towards her.  I gave up on sending the daily nice guy text when I'd tell her "Hope you had a good day today".  I used to at least send that once a day.  But I get zero response out of it so I stopped.  When she wants to talk to me she does.  I just don't bug her until she reaches out to me first.

I'm reading a book called "The Secret Joy of Hygge" which I think is a Swedish/Danish term for Joy in the small things in life.  Like a warm blanket, a fire.  Live in those small things.  Like even doing the dishes.  Do the dishes.  Nothing else.  See how the water feels, the experience of doing the dishes and doing them well.

I find that stopping multitasking and focusing on the small things like that helps me quite a bit.

Time and patience is all I can do while my wife heals.

Gadget

[Stillhopeful4]

Time and patience is all I can do while my wife heals.

I love this Gadget.  However, my wife admits she needs time and space to "heal from the trauma our relationship has caused her".  That's what she claims.  I'm just afraid she won't see her part in that or that we can heal and still work towards a happy future together.

Thoughts?

SH4

[Enabler]

Have you ever noticed that when you get fired up, your perception of stuff changes. I have a way of thinking about it that I'll share with you... and it really is the crux of BPD to be honest.

So, each of us has an emotional container, lets call it a pint glass (if you want to visualise this get a pint glass and put it in the sink and get a jug of water). That pint glass represents our individual ability to keep our  together. Stressors (water) fill up the pint glass, each stressor could be different and it's unlikely that 1 individual thing fills up the glass immediately. So, for example, it could be that you had a rubbish day at work, the kids have been badly behaved, the car broke down, you think your @ss looks big in that, dinner burnt, it's too hot, it's too cold, you're worried about money... etc etc etc. Each one will go into the pint glass until you reach the top. The meniscus is bulging on the top of the glass, one more drop and it's going to spill over but you're keeping it together. As a healthy adult you try and bail out the water as quickly as possible to reduce the stress, maybe you complete some tasks, fix the car, tell the kids to go to their rooms, get take out... but all the things are healthy ways to reduce the water in the glass. Now... what if it spills over? Well this is called emotional dysregulation. This is the point where we cry, scream and shout, throw a plate, drive the car on 2 wheels... in this period we become very black and white in our thinking, we catastrophise, we think very narcisistically , we become impulsive etc etc... Sound familiar? We become very BPD trait.

The thing about pwBPD especially those with childhood trauma, is that they have a block of water which NEVER goes away. For example, if you were sexually abused by your parents, this is likely to stay as a block of sludge festering away in your NOW / CURRENT / LIVE emotional cup, and for some, this can represent a large majority of their emotional capacity. So, imagine you put a load of stones in your pint glass, guess what, you can't tolerate as much stressor (water) before you overflow (dysregulate)... so... you dysregulate a lot more often. In fact, you could spend the majority of your time in a dysregulated state. This red zone is dangerous, most nons spend a minimal amount of time in this state and when they come out they tend to regret their behaviour because they've acted badly. We don't tend to spend enough time in the RED zone to need to learn to cope with it and instead learn to cope with saying sorry and accepting the consequences for our behaviour for the brief periods we're in the hot zone. As I said, a suffer of BPD may spend a long time in the RED zone doing all sorts of negative things to themselves and others, which in itself may keep them in the RED zone.

I see your wife's behaviours as being in the RED zone at the moment. She is HOT HOT HOT and needs to cool down such that her thought processes can switch from animal 'fight or flight' instincts (it's all your fault and I need to heal) to more rational behaviour. Although you can do some things to cool her or at least reduce your own fueling of the fire, only she can cool herself and bail out her own pint glass by whatever means she knows how. Once we cool, all of us, we're much more likely to see our own involvement in a problem. This will take time and I would implore you to try and understand the instinctive defensive behaviours and language such that you're less hurt by her accusations and seeming inability to take ownership of some of the problems.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Thank you Enabler,

The pint glass visual was a very helpful tool.

So what are your thoughts on helping to cool the situation?  I haven't talked to her in any way shape or form, since the soccer game/food drop off late Monday afternoon.  I find it odd she hasn't sent me a dog pic since Sunday.  She had previously sent one every day since she left.  If I did something "wrong" I can only imagine it was what I said about not taking the phone/car away from DS19 or it could be that I dropped off other food goodies besides the dog food, I don't know.  I'm trying not to focus on it, but if I don't know what I did to make her angry again how do I stop doing it in the future.  I guess we will see if she sits with me or talks to me at the game today.

I'm just going to lay low and try and take it one day at a time.

Any advise is much appreciated.  Thanks.

SH4

[Enabler]

Listen...

You know when someone is bothering them and they try super hard not to mention it but they mention it typically at the end of a sentence... e.g. "How you doing, how's your mum, how are the kids, and oh,what's happening with S19 have you taken away his phone as I suggested." That MAYBE your tell as to what is keeping her hot. You're going to have to be cool, I mean super super cool, cool as a cucumber cool. Things just float by you, water off a ducks back every thing is fine... not awesome, just fine, neutral, dull, void of extremes... just chilled.

Start writing a diary, write down when she sends you a picture of the dog, what conversations you have. When you send a text message and what you said and when she sends you one. See what works, when it works.

I'd say she's ruminating about the conversation about your S19... don't attempt to address it. Leave it, leave her to deal with it. It's not your problem. Remember, your boundaries are also for WHERE YOU END.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

You're going to have to be cool, I mean super super cool, cool as a cucumber cool. Things just float by you, water off a ducks back every thing is fine... not awesome, just fine, neutral, dull, void of extremes... just chilled.

I'm going to try this.  I'm going to try very hard. 

How do you deal with when they are angry and spurting things that are outrageous at you...how do you not defend yourself and "validate" the BS they are spewing?

SH4

[Enabler]

Validate what you can, say nothing when you have nothing to validate and leave when you think the conversation is going nowhere or getting out of control. In some ways you have to manage her ability to say things she might regret saying. "Maybe we should talk about this at another time as I'm not in the right space to be able to have this conversation..." then up and go. Asking for time out is fine.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

I'm having a hard time with the validating.  I don't understand fully.

Like is she tells me to do something. IE you need to take his phone and his car away...how do I validate that?

Can you guys provide me examples of validation for things like:

You don't love me, you've never loved me.

You are a liar, that's all you ever do is lie.

I don't want to talk to you all you want to do is play games and mind f with me.

I know you are out hanging out with a guy, you always wanted guys and never wanted me.

YOU NEED TO (insert anything here, Take phone away, take life away, ground DS, )

How do I validate these things?

SH4

[once removed]

How do I validate these things?

you dont, necessarily.

its much easier to approach things from a standpoint of "dont be invalidating" than "validate". if you are not doing the former, you are likely, more naturally, doing the latter.

but listening with empathy is really key to finding a validation target.

when someone is coming at you like that, using "all or nothing" language, somewhere under it all is likely a valid feeling that makes a lot of sense. you have to listen and cut through the drama to find it.

so for example, what is at the bottom of "i know you are hanging out with a guy, you always wanted guys and never wanted me"? it could be as simple as her expressing that she feels unappreciated in the relationship, and is overstating it in hyperbolic language. this is just a hypothetical example. but if it were the case, validation could be as simple as listening to, and acknowledging that feeling.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

[Stillhopeful4]

so for example, what is at the bottom of "i know you are hanging out with a guy, you always wanted guys and never wanted me"? it could be as simple as her expressing that she feels unappreciated in the relationship, and is overstating it in hyperbolic language. this is just a hypothetical example. but if it were the case, validation could be as simple as listening to, and acknowledging that feeling.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Thank you Once Removed!  This Helps a bit.

Little Update from last night:  She came to the soccer game, she showed up after me and didn't sit in the bleachers, she sat away from us on the grass, at the 1/2 she came over and sat near me for a little while...small chit chat mostly about our dog...and a little about a sick family member... after about 20 minutes she got up and went and sat back on the grass.  I stayed put.  When it was time to leave and the boy came over and hugged us all and said thanks for coming I just said bye to her.  She sent me a few pics last night of the dog and texted me this morning to wish me luck at a dr's appointment.  I thanked her.  And she asked me to let her know how it went.  I texted her when I left and told her I got the all clear for 1 year and she replied "That's great!".  He has another game tomorrow I think she mentioned she would be at.  I miss her...but I am really going to try and focus on me and give her some space and let her come to me.

Thank you all for your support.

((HUGS)

SH4

[Red5]

I miss her...but I am really going to try and focus on me and give her some space and let her come to me.

This is the best thing you can do SH4, and I know how hard it is to "let go"… I surely do,

We cant change them, we cant "fix" them, anything they do, any movement on their part, they are in control of that, not us… and it is sometimes excruciating, this is why it is so crucial to find happiness within ourselves, to be "comfortable in our own skins"…

I have read several times over the past week, when we are in these relationships, we have to let go of our expectations, hopes, and desires… it is no easy task… but in the end, life has to go on, and we must not become beached on the rocks of relationship duress, it just isn't healthy for us nons.

You are doing well, keep it neutral… show emotional strength.

I thought about this on Sunday, after Mrs. Red5 came to the house, and dropped of S32 autistics birthday present… she was curt, short, and seemed very aggravated that I was in her presence… no hug, no kiss… and a speedy getaway… this from a lady I once shared a bed with, intimacy, hopes, dreams, laughter, and also a lot of pain…

She is like a little bird, whose escaped from her cage, and is sitting on the window seal, by the open window… I want her to come back inside… and sit in her cage and sing to me… but there she sits, on the precipice… only a few wings from the big bad world, where there is danger, and no coming back again… and I know, if I try to reach for her, she may take flight, and never come back again… whether she cant because she is lost, and cant find her way back home, or because she doesn't ever want to return to me… I know… one false move by me, even good intentioned... and she will flee : (

Hang in there SH4,

Red5

[Enabler]

Hey SH4,

Sounds like she got over herself and softened, you stayed light and neutral and she warmed to that. Keep standing still, preserve the zone where a functioning relationship can exist (you're best positioned to define that). Don't JADE, Validate the valid, Don't invalidate and stay super chilled... basically be you true self.

Well done for not bounding over to her on the grass, nicely handled. Well done for not following her when she returned to her patch, nicely handled. Nice light chit chat and responses to her expressions of care in the texts, nicely handled. Nice you said thanks for the pictures of the dog, nicely handled. Encourage the behaviour you like and be a bit meh about the behaviours you don't. Don't play games.

I have a hunch that the sitting on the grass was a half attempt to see if you would bound over, and half to sulk... bit to see if she had control... a test. When the test didn't work, she comes over to be nice... then, walks off to see if that has got control again and wanted you to follow... you didn't, control failed... "hmmm I don't have control, I feel a bit insecure, must send pictures of dog to test she's still there for me", you responded with kindness... you're teaching her that you respond to nice and kind behaviour NOT sulking... See, the she sulks you come bounding over is reinforcing the behaviour that sulking gets attention. By NOT rewarding that behaviour you're teaching her the rules have changed and you don't play that game anymore.

You're doing well and I hope you feel like you're moving towards a better place emotionally and in your understanding of the dynamic.

Enabler

[Enabler]

She is like a little bird, whose escaped from her cage, and is sitting on the window seal, by the open window … I want her to come back inside … and sit in her cage and sing to me … but there she sits, on the precipice … only a few wings from the big bad world, where there is danger, and no coming back again … and I know, if I try to reach for her, she may take flight, and never come back again … whether she cant because she is lost, and cant find her way back home, or because she doesn't ever want to return to me … I know … one false move by me, even good intentioned ... and she will flee : (

Awesome piece of writing RED, top work man. So nicely put.

[Stillhopeful4]

She is like a little bird, whose escaped from her cage, and is sitting on the window seal, by the open window … I want her to come back inside … and sit in her cage and sing to me … but there she sits, on the precipice … only a few wings from the big bad world, where there is danger, and no coming back again … and I know, if I try to reach for her, she may take flight, and never come back again … whether she cant because she is lost, and cant find her way back home, or because she doesn't ever want to return to me … I know … one false move by me, even good intentioned ... and she will flee : (
Red5

Red I love this!  Thank you for this analogy.  I'm trying my best, it's still new, but then again it's not because she has left so many times before.  But knowing there is a cause (BPD) and something else there this time is REALLY helping mean deal with this and process everything, well and you wonderful people as well.

[Stillhopeful4]

You're doing well and I hope you feel like you're moving towards a better place emotionally and in your understanding of the dynamic.

Enabler,

Thank you!  Yes, I do feel like I'm moving in some direction.  I'm just worried when something big comes up, like I'm sure she's going to play the "we should just get a divorce" card very soon, I will panic and go back into my old ways of justifying myself.

This is such a long hard process.  I see the T this afternoon, she saw him Tuesday.  Let's see how this goes!  Ughhhhhhh (She tends to have him "break" things to me).

Thanks,
SH4

[Enabler]

When something big comes up, buy yourself time, preparation time... even if it involves doing bad BPD things like hanging up. It’s better to say nothing than the wrong thing.

[Stillhopeful4]

Enabler,

Got it!  I will try my best!

(On a separate note, you mentioned hanging up as a BPD trait?  Can we explore this a little?  My wife does this to me constantly, in fact she will go nuts if I don't answer her call then when I do she will scream at me what she has to say and will hang up before I can respond...is that normal BPD behavior?)

SH4

[Red5]

...bad BPD things like hanging up.

Ah’ yes... the old hang up game... one of Mrs.Red5’s favorites... so juvenile, but she does (did) it all the time to me, this particular tool of hers must occupy a special place in her little red tool box, what has red flames painted on the side... yes the “hang up” game, right next to the “silent treatment”... right there on top in her little red tool box... with the red flames painted on the side ...

Another thing I’ve learned... humor is life!

Find the funny, or make it up, it will get you through the anger...

Red5  

[gadget]

Good job SH4!

Well handled!  That is about how I play it these days.  Awesome input from Enabler and Red5 too.

You are doing great SH4.  Keep hanging in there.

Gadget

[Red5]

Here a few weeks ago, August the 3rd... she had a meltdown over the phone, after I fixed up that ottoman for her, and delivered it to her... wine, small talk, a hug and a little kiss on the lips  ...

An hour later she is screaming at me on the phone, how I let my ex wife take advantage of me, when she wants to see S32autistic... ended with her saying... “I’m done, I just want a divorce”...

I waited for her to stop talking, yelling, interrupting me...

And I said... “ I am done with you talking to me in such an abusive manner, if it is your wish to divorce, then that’s yours to own, I’ll have none of it... if you want a divorce from me, I want you to request it in a letter, write out your wishes, date it, and sign it, and put it in the mail, you know the address.”

I never got the letter, but I did get a 4.5 page email the very next morning... about six hours later... full of projection, blame and shame aimed at me...

I printed it out, and let “T” read it, I asked him what he thought about it all... I said... “Major Tom, don’t pull no punches here, what do you make of this”.

Major Tom says to me... “Ok Red, don’t take this harshly, but those are the ravings of a lunatic.”

That’s exactly what he said... I think I gasped a little bit, and said... “fair enough”...

Wow!

For years now, if I hear the “straight dope” from an outside unbiased opinion, whom is NOT emotionally connected... it always astounds me what they say to me... this is what happens when we have spent years, decades in these relationships... we can’t see the forest for the trees any longer...we have “target fixation”... “snow blindness”...we are in too deep, and too close, we don’t see what is right in front of us...

...”the ravings of a lunitic” he said... wow : (

Our year separation required to file for divorce in North Carolina will be up in December... guess if she is serious, that will be when it happens...

So another 75 daze roughly... ugh,

Stay firm SH4... don’t get sucked in, be slow to talk, and even slower to act, speak what you feel in your heart... “I’m sorry you feel this way, I do not, I need some time and some space from this”... and leave it right there.

Red5  

[Enabler]

even if it involves doing bad BPD things like hanging up.

To clarify this statement... Hanging up on a pwBPD is tantamount to abandonment, similar to physically walking out on them. Since they typically suffer from fear of abandonment this would be clearly provocative. What I'm saying is that even though by hanging up on them to cease the conversation and buy time would arouse abandonment fears, it's better than saying something you might later regret.

Hanging up is in effect emotional violence / silent treatment. It's cease communication and shutting down a conversation, typically after they have had the last word on the matter. The best ones are the call... rant... hang up before you've even managed to say a word.

Enabler

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Pat 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339558.msg13076171#msg13076171

Thank you.