Can I seriously continue putting up with such nonsense?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Just need to rant a bit - it's been almost 15 yrs since she and I had any sort of romantic thing - I'm significantly older, established, happily married at this point for 10 years.  She's had such sketchy things occur as a child, yet she can be so brilliant at times, I decided long ago that I'll be somebody in her life who won't abandon her, and put up with whatever nonsense she throws me way.   So I'm curious

(1) , is it the case that the longer a person with BPD knows somebody, the more they trust that the person is really "there" for them, the WORSE they are going to treat this person over time?  Is this the basic deal with BPD?   That the closer somebody is connected to you, the more they are going to be seriously dumped upon?     So this would mean that the people they treat the absolute WORSE will be their parents, since they know that their parents are going to hang in there with them longer than anybody else?   Because it sure seems that as time goes on, and I've "proven" that I'll stick around through thick and thin, and put up with all sorts of embarrassing nonsense, the more she tries to make it increasingly difficult to not throw in the towel with her.    Because I think I've had enough now, and I feel bad throwing in the towel.

(2) I'm always impressed that she seems to have this intuitive spider sense that lets her know that "ok, maaaaaybe this time I went a bit too far with my abusive nonsense" and thus there is the occasional "bone" tossed my way where for a (brief) moment she almost occurs to me like a regular normal person.   But over time, as the years go on, these "normal" moments seem fewer and fewer - like at first she came across as a totally normal fun person and it took almost a year for her to split on me one day and morph into this weird hideous look-alike capable of spewing the most foul hateful things at me that I've ever heard come out of a person.   It was almost like I was witnessing an evil spirit possessing this person whom I thought I knew.   That was our first "split" - ending our romantic connection and it would be six months before she reappeared in my life with some silly excuse.   We never resumed a romantic thing, but we did manage to become "friends", sort of.   Actually it was more like we would share lives on a regular basis until something would set her off, and she would go back to her vowing to never speaking to me again.   This went on and on for years, in different ways, with the getting re-aligned part taking longer and longer - and the actual experiencing each other as "friends" part feeling shorter and shorter.   Does this sound familiar?  I"m just curious as to other people's experience knowing these people over time.     Basically it feels less and less "worth it" to me - whatever I get out of it, which is hardly anything at this point, isn't possibly worth the abuse.  

Here's an example : does this sound at all "typical" ?

she graduated from university - took her eight years - but she did graduate from a grown up University with a solid technical degree  - and yet had no idea how to go about getting a job.  Zero experience job hunting.  Couldn't even manage putting a resume together.    So I helped her as I could.   And as a graduation gift, I sent her to a women's tech conference where there would be a huge job fair - it was scary for her but off she went.   And then she came back and refused to tell me one word about it - before quickly fabricating some reason why she was "kicked out" of her mom's house - thus she couldn't talk - and then a month later when she finally could talk to me, it was to tell me to stop stalking her.   It made me so angry that she had the nerve to become some sort of pretend "victim" and willfully smear me in the eyes of her family, only because she was too embarassed to tell me that she didn't come back from the conference with a job - that she probably chickened out and didn't even talk to a single recruiter.   Because that's my guess what happened, and rather than tell me, it was easier to blow up our friendship.   So this lead to a two year "break" before, once again, somehow we start texting, etc ... next question

(3) is it common for them to pretend that any nonsense they put you through in the past simply "doesn't exist" any more?  

This last time we reconnected is even more ridiculous.   She emails me "can you help with some career guidance, I'd love to have you visit me, I'll take you to lunch, think it will be nice seeing each other".   Wow, there it is - an actual gesture of behaving like a "normal" person behaves!      I was quick to take her up on it, that I would contact her when I would be in her area (3 hours from me) which would be in a few weeks.    So two weeks later I email her that I'll be showing up in her little town - and then get NOTHING back from her - not a peep ... it's as if she never invited me to visit her, and that for the first time in 15 years, she would actually buy my lunch!    But I had the email to prove it, so I risked sending a SECOND email, like "ding dong, I'll be in town next Thursday, whassup?".   And tomorrow is the day I'll actually be in her town, it's been a few years since we've seen one another - and still no response!    It's so annoying.    Am I supposed to send a THIRD email now, as many years ago, she went totally balistic when she would go silent, and receive increasingly concerned messages from her parents inquiring if their daughter was still alive?   She seems to thrive on ghosting people and then watching them try to chase her down before turning on them and denouncing them as stalker-ish.    

So to review my questions

1) do they abuse people, based on how those people feel about them?   i.e - The more attached the person, the more abuse heading their way?  Only relative strangers receive their "nice" treatment of other humans.  

2) do they willfully do things to get other people to become critical of them, giving them an excuse to split on the person who dared say something about their awful behavior towards others?   So many times I feel she's daring me to say ONE WORD about her behaving like a three year old.  

3) Are they aware of themselves behaving badly ?    I'm quite certain that my friend will have no idea why it's not ok to invite somebody to visit them from 100 miles away, and then totally ghost the same person when they try to accept and follow up.  

4) At what point is it okay to decide "enough already"?   Because I think I'm ready.  I can't do it anymore.  Just to painful - and being trained that I can't say ONE WORD of complaint is almost comical - and embarrasing that I've put up with it.   Nobody should have to.

[CycleBreaker123]

Just need to rant a bit - it's been almost 15 yrs since she and I had any sort of romantic thing - I'm significantly older, established, happily married at this point for 10 years.  She's had such sketchy things occur as a child, yet she can be so brilliant at times, I decided long ago that I'll be somebody in her life who won't abandon her, and put up with whatever nonsense she throws me way.   So I'm curious

(1) , is it the case that the longer a person with BPD knows somebody, the more they trust that the person is really "there" for them, the WORSE they are going to treat this person over time?  Is this the basic deal with BPD?   That the closer somebody is connected to you, the more they are going to be seriously dumped upon?     So this would mean that the people they treat the absolute WORSE will be their parents, since they know that their parents are going to hang in there with them longer than anybody else?   Because it sure seems that as time goes on, and I've "proven" that I'll stick around through thick and thin, and put up with all sorts of embarrassing nonsense, the more she tries to make it increasingly difficult to not throw in the towel with her.    Because I think I've had enough now, and I feel bad throwing in the towel.

(2) I'm always impressed that she seems to have this intuitive spider sense that lets her know that "ok, maaaaaybe this time I went a bit too far with my abusive nonsense" and thus there is the occasional "bone" tossed my way where for a (brief) moment she almost occurs to me like a regular normal person.   But over time, as the years go on, these "normal" moments seem fewer and fewer - like at first she came across as a totally normal fun person and it took almost a year for her to split on me one day and morph into this weird hideous look-alike capable of spewing the most foul hateful things at me that I've ever heard come out of a person.   It was almost like I was witnessing an evil spirit possessing this person whom I thought I knew.   That was our first "split" - ending our romantic connection and it would be six months before she reappeared in my life with some silly excuse.   We never resumed a romantic thing, but we did manage to become "friends", sort of.   Actually it was more like we would share lives on a regular basis until something would set her off, and she would go back to her vowing to never speaking to me again.   This went on and on for years, in different ways, with the getting re-aligned part taking longer and longer - and the actual experiencing each other as "friends" part feeling shorter and shorter.   Does this sound familiar?  I"m just curious as to other people's experience knowing these people over time.     Basically it feels less and less "worth it" to me - whatever I get out of it, which is hardly anything at this point, isn't possibly worth the abuse.  

Here's an example : does this sound at all "typical" ?

she graduated from university - took her eight years - but she did graduate from a grown up University with a solid technical degree  - and yet had no idea how to go about getting a job.  Zero experience job hunting.  Couldn't even manage putting a resume together.    So I helped her as I could.   And as a graduation gift, I sent her to a women's tech conference where there would be a huge job fair - it was scary for her but off she went.   And then she came back and refused to tell me one word about it - before quickly fabricating some reason why she was "kicked out" of her mom's house - thus she couldn't talk - and then a month later when she finally could talk to me, it was to tell me to stop stalking her.   It made me so angry that she had the nerve to become some sort of pretend "victim" and willfully smear me in the eyes of her family, only because she was too embarassed to tell me that she didn't come back from the conference with a job - that she probably chickened out and didn't even talk to a single recruiter.   Because that's my guess what happened, and rather than tell me, it was easier to blow up our friendship.   So this lead to a two year "break" before, once again, somehow we start texting, etc ... next question

(3) is it common for them to pretend that any nonsense they put you through in the past simply "doesn't exist" any more?  

This last time we reconnected is even more ridiculous.   She emails me "can you help with some career guidance, I'd love to have you visit me, I'll take you to lunch, think it will be nice seeing each other".   Wow, there it is - an actual gesture of behaving like a "normal" person behaves!      I was quick to take her up on it, that I would contact her when I would be in her area (3 hours from me) which would be in a few weeks.    So two weeks later I email her that I'll be showing up in her little town - and then get NOTHING back from her - not a peep ... it's as if she never invited me to visit her, and that for the first time in 15 years, she would actually buy my lunch!    But I had the email to prove it, so I risked sending a SECOND email, like "ding dong, I'll be in town next Thursday, whassup?".   And tomorrow is the day I'll actually be in her town, it's been a few years since we've seen one another - and still no response!    It's so annoying.    Am I supposed to send a THIRD email now, as many years ago, she went totally balistic when she would go silent, and receive increasingly concerned messages from her parents inquiring if their daughter was still alive?   She seems to thrive on ghosting people and then watching them try to chase her down before turning on them and denouncing them as stalker-ish.    

So to review my questions

1) do they abuse people, based on how those people feel about them?   i.e - The more attached the person, the more abuse heading their way?  Only relative strangers receive their "nice" treatment of other humans.  

2) do they willfully do things to get other people to become critical of them, giving them an excuse to split on the person who dared say something about their awful behavior towards others?   So many times I feel she's daring me to say ONE WORD about her behaving like a three year old.  

3) Are they aware of themselves behaving badly ?    I'm quite certain that my friend will have no idea why it's not ok to invite somebody to visit them from 100 miles away, and then totally ghost the same person when they try to accept and follow up.  

4) At what point is it okay to decide "enough already"?   Because I think I'm ready.  I can't do it anymore.  Just to painful - and being trained that I can't say ONE WORD of complaint is almost comical - and embarrasing that I've put up with it.   Nobody should have to.

[once removed]

1) do they abuse people, based on how those people feel about them?   i.e - The more attached the person, the more abuse heading their way?  Only relative strangers receive their "nice" treatment of other humans. 

not as a rule, no.

what is true is that the closer anyone is to another person, the more that person will see the best and the worst of them.

for example, people with bpd traits can be hypersensitive to perceived criticism and rejection. that can certainly happen with anyone. but it means a lot more coming from someone close.

This went on and on for years, in different ways, with the getting re-aligned part taking longer and longer - and the actual experiencing each other as "friends" part feeling shorter and shorter.   Does this sound familiar?

its rare that former romantic partners make good, long lasting friends, even if they both want it. sometimes it can help take the edge off separation to maintain a connection. that often, eventually, flickers out, and rarely grows into more.

Am I supposed to send a THIRD email now

no. its never a good idea to chase. its hard to say why she would reach out and then go quiet, but i wouldnt push.

4) At what point is it okay to decide "enough already"?

whenever you want.

having said that, it seems like you have expectations of this friendship that arent being met, and possibly will not be. sometimes lowering expectations can make everything smoother...you just get on when you get on and enjoy it when that happens. sometimes that isnt fulfilling.

what do you think?

[Jbombjas]

1) I think so. I have little experience but the experience I have says yes. It’s not an amotional attachment persay. They aren’t capable of much of that. They are too preoccupied with themselves. And not intentionally. Just because life is hard so they are their only focus. And they are childlike. So they haven’t moved past being selfish & self centered. But yes. The more attached to you, the more fearful and the more they try to push you away.
2 & 3) I don’t think they are intentionally malicious or mean. I think it’s impulsive. I think they know what they have done is wrong after the fact but then beat themselves up about and sit in such shame that’s often what makes them stay away longer or disappear. I don’t think many of their actions are planned or willful. They are just blowing in the wind with their current feeling which changes just as fast. They are trying to push away out of fear. To get you to stay. And see if you will. They don’t WANT to split you black. People are just all good or all bad. Love or hate. There is no gray. Ever. They are hypersensitive so one wrong that you may perceive forgivable or nothing could be total devastation for them. And boom. You’re black.
4) I think you don’t have to put up with it. Youbset boundaries and love from afar. And you distance yourself from her when she acts inappropriately. She may have the emotional inigenxe  of a child but she’s intelligent.. She’s been studying people since she was very young. She knows. When you set the boundary it teaches her. You love yourself first then her.

Excuse my typos. Didn’t proof.

This is all just MY opinion and take on things. I may or may not be incorrect.

[CycleBreaker123]

But I DO feel her lack of response is deliberately mean - Sonce we all
Know I it takes exactly 12 seconds to respond “sorry, I’m busy that day” - and she knows quite well how much I hate being ignored as it has come up a lot between us.   So either her world blew up between the time she invited me and my responding -  OR she seeker to create some sort of drama for whatever reason.   It’s like these people play the following game - “I’m going to behave as selfishly and unabashedly disrespectful as I can possibly be - and if you DARE call me on it, like if I hear even a whisper that I did something unkind, then I have been given permission to uncork a pent up hurricane of outrage in your direction for DARING to criticize me!”    Right?  In the past, when I finally had enough nonsense, and I indulged myself by scolding her, even a little bit, omg!    Banned into silence for 3 months, minimum.  

But it’s so humiliating to play along - such a pointless facade - which is why I guess they end up with only immediate family around them over time.  Nobody else has any reason to keep playing - thus fulfilling their sad story how everybody abandons them, etc.    right, treat people like garbage and eventually it’s you who gets tossed out.  

Truth is for me, the stakes here are quite low - I can return quite easily to my actual life filled with relatively normal people who behave honestly.   Because going “quiet” randomly is such a dishonest thing to do - it’s so childish.   Obviously the other person is going to dig around “what’s up?” When they are all of a sudden ignored.  And then the kicker is she gets to denounce the other person is “bugging” her - and she gets to block them or speak badly about them.   Like is it even possible the whole invitation here was offered so that she could play another round of “ignoring”?    So sick to believe.    t must be so exhausting living this way - it’s like how do you remember who you are on speaking terms with?    And honestly, I think they live their lives this way, with manufactured dramas being created daily.     And what’s so weird to s knowing she is 100 percent capable of behaving “normally” whenever she meets a new person - she knows exactly what is required and seems quite capable of doing it.  So why can’t she behave this way with people she actually is “close to”?    Or is it that the whole concept of “close” is meaningless to them?   Scary stuff

[once removed]

if you truly believe (do you?) that shes simply setting you up to hurt you/mess with you, there isnt much of a friendship is there?

[CycleBreaker123]

Obviously not.   And I"m tired of letting these sorts of things go - like why should they get away with behaving so terribly?   But then time passes, and I don't care as much a few months later - and so it goes.    It's just such a sick thing to do, I have trouble believing she would intentionally do this just to be mean for no reason.   So I'm thinking well maybe she received the birthday note from me a few days prior - maybe she liked it, it's been known to happen - and so I was all of a sudden WHITE again - but then she sends me the invitation and receives my reply a few days later, and she got spooked or something like that.   I have no idea actually - but does she not have ANY sense of what Miss Manners would do - like hello ?   

"Gentle Reader - when you invite somebody to visit you, it's expected that you don't turn around and immediately GHOST them the next day, doing so sends a confusing message, to say the least"

My question is this - is she aware how bad she is behaving here?   Or is simply "I don't feel like getting together anymore, so I won't respond".  Because that's sort of creepy.

[ColdKnight]

That sounds very very similar to my ex. She would constantly wait forever to return a text. Here is one of my favorites. She sent me a pic of her wearing my sweatshirt. Four hours later I sent back “I wan’t to kiss you” (Now granted I waited a while to respond because I was listening to online dating advice that says don’t be too available.)That was a Tuesday and she didn’t respond. So Sunday rolls around and I send “Babydoll...” No response.

The next morning I send “Still not going to abandon you”
You know because you gotta reassure them all the time that you are always going to be there for them.

She responds and we text a few times and i send “Miss your face” She responds “Miss your touch”

20 min later i send “are you free tonight?” That was at 930am.
At 830pm I still had no reply so I called her out on her not replying. I said it was bullsh*** and it felt like games

She blasted back how she had been busy all day and her daughter got sick school and she just now read my message.
I kinda blasted back saying i was just telling her what it felt like to me. For the next 3 days I sent basically apology/I’m still here for you texts and on the fourth day one that said “been feeling your heart all day.i hope you are ok” no response to any of these. Six days later I send “Hey..will you talk to me later? Or at least respond to a text?”   No response...

A week later i send “well we gave it a shot. No hard feelings. See ya round”.     No response

A week later I see her and I text her” I just can’t seem to escape you” She replies “no wave? Ouch” So i call her. She seems happy to hear from me and I ask her why she was ignoring me and she said “I’m sorry” when I asked her why she did it she started to get angry and said “do you want to rehash the past?” Not wanting to upset the princess I let it go.

There were tons of other times she pulled this crap but god forbid I don’t respond to a call or text right away I get called out and given the silent treatment.

She even forged a call log to make it look like she called me three times in two days. I had zero missed calls from her.

I agree. It is exhausting and why the hell do we put up with it. I finally sent a really mean text that pretty much guarantees we will never speak again. I know I will never reach out.

She also has slept with so many men and broken up marriages at our company that her reputation is destroyed.

So like you want to know. Do they know what they are doing and just can’t help themselves or do they get off on the power of giving you the silent treatment.

She only has three years at the company and is considered a train wreck. I’m sure she did the same at her last company but she has to know what she does destroys relationships.

Again do they just not care or can they not control themselves. This has to be a terrible way to live

[once removed]

It's just such a sick thing to do, I have trouble believing she would intentionally do this just to be mean for no reason.

realistically, it isnt very likely.

more likely, shes just kind of a flake.

my best friend of two decades, who doesnt have bpd, does it all the time. i adjust my actions, our relationship, my expectations, accordingly.

it bothers you. thats fair. it bothers me too. the question is really how you want to proceed.

[CycleBreaker123]

I don't"wish to proceed" actually.    I wish to indulge myself by sending her a message that 100 percent she will respond to in under a minute.   I've already composed the message.   goes like this ...

"hey next time you ask somebody for professional advice, try behaving like a professional".    

yup, that should do the trick.    Because she will move mountains to blast a reply to THAT message - since I've now invalidated her, which is obviously what she is after in the first place".    

But I won't - nope - been there, done that.    They beg us to scold them, so they can respond by blowing up, etc.   so I'd rather just rant here, if that's ok ... a few weeks will pass ... and it will blow over.    isn't that what we do?    Let. Things. Go.   I'm lucky the stakes are low here - she's not my everything - she's just an endlessly annoying person in my life.  A month from now, I won't care at all - there is no point in announcing any "decision"    I'm basically just here to complain, in a safe place among people who really "get it", without causing any damage to anybody.    because willfully upsetting her simply to indulge myself the satisfaction of calling her out occurs to me as unkind.   She's obviously in enough pain already.

[CycleBreaker123]

The next morning I send “Still not going to abandon you”
You know because you gotta reassure them all the time that you are always going to be there for them.

She responds and we text a few times and i send “Miss your face” She responds “Miss your touch”

20 min later i send “are you free tonight?” That was at 930am.
At 830pm I still had no reply so I called her out on her not replying. I said it was bullsh*** and it felt like games

She blasted back how she had been busy all day and her daughter got sick school and she just now read my message.
I kinda blasted back saying i was just telling her what it felt like to me. For the next 3 days I sent basically apology/I’m still here for you texts and on the fourth day one that said “been feeling your heart all day.i hope you are ok” no response to any of these. Six days later I send “Hey..will you talk to me later? Or at least respond to a text?”   No response...

This sort of nonsense sounds so achingly familiar.   They LOVE LOVE LOVE texting - it gives them all the immediacy of conversation, if that's what they are in the mood for - at the same time they can author their replies instead of spontaneously spitting them out.    It's all about them having maximum CONTROL - and when they are texting, they have control of each and every sentence, at any time they can shut down the conversation simply by not responding.   They can craft a reply and wordsmith it over and over before sending.   Thus they can MANIPULATE people like crazy, it's effortless to pretend to be excited when they are actually not excited at all.   Or they can pretend to be offended, when they could care less.   Better still, they can be totally ambiguous, keeping the other person guessing what they actually mean.   Texting is a BPD dream come true. 

I love how she sends you cute pics of her wearing your shirt - like THAT's not a totally submissive sort of symbol  ("I'm yours!") - followed up by telling you she misses your "touch", until letting you wait 12 hours to hear from her again because "OMG, I'm soo very busy today!"

Pfft.  C'mon!    Puuuuleaze.      Because, uh, you weren't too busy to send me
"Hey, Sailor" selfies wearing my oversize shirt".   


  The best thing you could have done was give NO RESPONSE to her "I miss your touch" message - ZERO RESPONSE.   Can you imagine how she would react if nothing came back ?  She'd lose her mind.   Mirror Mirror on the wall, what if I'm actually NOT the most irresistible tease of all?.    No, you can't imagine ... because you responded exactly "on script" - allowing her to run away (because she's soo very busy) after deliberately teasing you.   Not Nice Behavior.

[ColdKnight]

Vent and complain all you can brother! That is exactly why I am here and If I can impart some wisdom and guidance then so all the better!

I am tired of tiptoeing around all their bullsh**! They need to be held accountable for their actions.

We as men give them (women) the power they need. I am just going to assume the woman you are dealing with is attractive and younger than you. Be honest, this is for posterity. I am almost 50 and the girl I am dealing with is 34 and super hot. Today I was talking with my T (btw never in my entire life have I EVER felt the need to see a T until this woman got into my head) and he said “If this girl was 65, overweight, and totally unattractive would you tolerate this behavior?” Instantly I knew I would not. We as MEN give far too much credence to a woman’s physical attractiveness.

You are absolutely right, the best thing I could have done was not respond to her “I miss your touch text” that would have threw her for a loop but I was in the “oh she’s BPD I need to validate her” or “she has abandonment issues, I need to reassure her” mode.

Who DOESN’T have abandonment issues? Get the FU** over it.

We work together so I had to burn the bridge down completely. I couldn’t deal with seeing her, her being flirty and me wondering “does she want me back?”

I sent her a text that torched the whole thing gangster style. I will NEVER contact her again and I doubt she will me.

[Cat Familiar]

CB123, I'll play Devil's Advocate here. If she's an "endlessly annoying person" in your life, unappreciative of your efforts to help her, can't tolerate being held accountable, flakes out on invitations---and you are "happily married for 10 years"--what exactly are you getting out of this relationship?

OK. I can imagine. She's considerably younger, probably very attractive. Hmmmm...what does your wife think about this "friendship" with your former lover?

[CycleBreaker123]

yeah, yeah ... I guess that's a fair question - but then, what do any of us get out of these horrific relationships described on these forums?  Most "normal" people would long ago have bolted the first time we were on the south end of a BPD meltdown - and never looked back.   But not the people who post here  - nope - the people posting on this particular forum not only went back that first time they met their "amazing new person's" evil twin ... they did so in SPADES.   Like they probably chased that evil twin like they had never chased anybody before.  And so here we are.   Is asking "what do you get out of being with this person?" a fair question on this forum?   You tell me.

  Truth is, the first time I was split black was the end of our romantic connection, and that was a long time ago.   Since then, it has changed into something else entirely - I dunno what it is - kind of friend-ish ... kind of paternal, I guess ... kind of "mentor" ish ... it's definitely a one-off thing.    Because middle aged guys can't be friends with attractive younger women - it just doesn't happen, right?    You are instantly suspicious of such a thing - I know I am - I mean, c'mon, just because I was born at night, I wasn't born LAST NIGHT, hello!    I know whassup - every married dude is either hooking up with the babysitter, or if not, he's scheming about how, and certainly he's thinking about it.  Right?   

Wrong.  We don't all spend our lives in constant heat.    Did you know that men can ACTUALLY decide that a particular female has zero sexual power over them?   That "thinking with one's larger head" is actually a thing.    Most, not all, but MOST male high school and college teachers know how to do this - they have to - it's their job.   They just decide not to go there.   It's sort of the same way most, not ALL, but most,  dads learn to be around their college-age daughter's friends.     And sure, some guys just cannot do it, if there is a younger female around.  the engine is always ON and raring to go.   Any female between the ages of 16 and 60 are evaluated as a "possibility", etc.   And that may be true when men are younger -- but over time, we actually can grow up, a bit. 

That said, your point is sadly true - of COURSE your eye's narrow the moment you hear "I'm 43, she's 22, we are just pals" -- and your ears perk up.   Why?    Obviously because the description sounds like the set up to the PornHub "vid of the week".  Every week.   

Anyway, what does my wife think?   Why she's delighted, obviously.  NOT !   She's more annoyed than I am that the connection exists - but truth be told, the connection is totally transparent, as are our communications, as are our infrequent meetings.   She knows that this is as much something that I do in the spirit of "giving back" as it is out of personal ego-feeding .   We are actually allowed to choose younger, disadvantaged people, and try to help them improve their lives, without asking for reciprocation and the thought that that person will Pay It Forward one day.   Somebody very kind to me helped me along the way as well.   But sure, I'm perfectly aware that this awkward twisty friendship raises eyebrows.  And that alone may make it unsustainable.   Which is kind of sad, actually.    And it could only work because (1) there was in fact a prior romantic connection that burned itself out naturally, and (2) the person happens to suffer from BPD, while I am inflicted with a textbook case of needing to view myself as a "good guy".   

[AskingWhy]

Living with a partner with BPD is like living with a toddler in an adult body.  pwBPD are stunted at toddlerhood (or even younger) and are in the stage before object permanence and separation and individuation.  They want to venture away from mommy and explore the world, but also want to run back in the event the real world is too scary.

Young children are the worst brats in the world to deal with, and that's why they say Terrible Twos.  Young children are terrors.  Happily, they move beyond this state.  (Then you have to deal with it again in the teens as they grow toward adulthood.)

Each R/S with a pwBPD is different and evolves differently.

I have to ask you also what Cat asks you.  What are you getting out of the R/S?  In my own case, I have been married too long and am set in my ways.  I feel very little romantically for my H and in my mind, he's more like a roommate. 

[CycleBreaker123]

I get a second row seat watching a talented yet somewhat tragically flawed person bumble their way thru early adulthood - she reminds me of somebody I know a lot better now, then I did when I was her age.    We share a profession, an awkward geekiness,  as well as lower than necessary self esteem - I overcame a slew of mental challenges and I'm confident she will be able to as well, though admittedly what she has to deal with occurs to me as a tougher road.   She's from a somewhat low income/low education region yet even with her mental stuff, found a way to get herself into a top ranked university and struggled in so many ways before earning a technical degree.    She's simply somebody who could use a few "breaks" - she's extremely shy and with such low self confidence, I"m probably the first "established" person who has taken any sort of interest in her - it would be totally inappropriate for my interest in her and any assistance I could be given with expectation or hope of any sort of "return" favor, but I certainly understand the obvious natural suspicion that such a situation may cause.   It's come up many times over the years - there was a candle that burned early on, but it went out after the first time she painted me black.   Three years ago, I learned about BPD, and she hit all the checkboxes.    In many ways, it's a much more tolerable situation for me since I have so little "stakes" involved - it's easy for me to pop in and out of her life as she cycles through the pattern of tearing up her life every so often, and reinventing herself with a "fresh start" as she calls it.    I've tried to remain somewhat consistent, but it's a REAL PAIN IN THE BUTT to remain a friend to somebody in so much pain - as much as I'd like to think I've helped her a bit, it's discouraging to see her blow her friendship with me up so often, and so pointlessly, over the most ridiculous things - usually triggered by her perceiving some sort of criticism coming from me and blowing it totally out of proportion.   She insists of text messaging as a primary communications channel - yet she is constantly misinterpreting messages, reading negative intent into words where none whatsoever was intended.   One time, I had asked "did you lose my number?" after she went radio silent for a few weeks - but she read the text so fast, she thought I had said "lose my number", and I didn't wish to talk to her any more.    So that time was nine months.    I do hate being ignored, but once I realize that we are playing "Silent Treatment", I'm typically fine playing for as long as she needs to.    When these people are not "front and center" in one's life, things like ST become much much easier to deal with.   More like, "whatever, talk to you later!" because you realize after a few cycles that such is exactly what will happen after they become bored of ST - you absolutely will be talking to them later!     She trudges onward - juggling an endless parade of men, friends pressuring her with expectations and harsh judgments, pulled into dramas involving her highly dysfunctional family, paying off a heavy student loan debt, while trying to navigate her first professional work situation - it is totally overwhelming to a regular person - but to somebody with BPD - it's a nightmare.   So if i can help her without making myself totally crazy, I'll do what I can.    Trouble is, I'm not some kind of robot - her evil twin is like a Disney super-villain and I may have to succumb to her evil wishes and exit the kingdom for good - and that makes me sad.

[CycleBreaker123]

You are absolutely right, the best thing I could have done was not respond to her “I miss your touch text” that would have threw her for a loop but I was in the “oh she’s BPD I need to validate her” or “she has abandonment issues, I need to reassure her” mode.

Who DOESN’T have abandonment issues? Get the FU** over it.

We work together so I had to burn the bridge down completely. I couldn’t deal with seeing her, her being flirty and me wondering “does she want me back?”

I sent her a text that torched the whole thing gangster style. I will NEVER contact her again and I doubt she will me.

Well I get it - I've sent that text myself - it's a total indulgence because you know 100 % that you are blowing everything up, but at some point, it feels kind of like the right thing to do, and boy oh boy, do they ever DESERVE IT.    

Problem is - one of two things happens.    First possibility is when they fire back some nasty-gram in return - it's actually sort of fun when it arrives - I mean surely you were looking for it in your INBOX within minutes of sending off the gangster hand grenade email you mention.    Be honest, how many times did you check your inbox waiting for her diatribe?   20?   30?   Surely more than 10, right?    Because it's actually in a weird way sort of satisfying to receive.  At least you know that you actually matter.    With my friend, the first time she went totally dark, for no reason I could understand.   I sent countless sincere, thoughtful, supportive, validating bouquets of verbage - none of which generated even an "OUT OF THE OFFICE reply - nothing!    As if she no longer exists.    But it was easy to find out if she's still on this side of the grass - all I needed to do was send something CRITICAL or even just a bit ANNOYED, god forbid ANGRY - and she sure found the time to reply that time!     It It arrived almost instantly, literally within five minutes -  chock full of vile hatred and vows of her DOUBLE hating me in return with NO TAKEBACKS EVER and stuff straight out of first grade - grown up versions of "I know you are, but what am I" - all the stuff we yelled at each other in first grade but this time it's via GMAIL.    And then the coup-de-grace - the ultimate "closer" as it were.   That's exactly what happened the first time I went from white to black - she sent me the meanest, cruelest, hate-filled vengeful message possible and then at the end, conclude with AND I NEVER WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU EVER, IN FACT IF YOU SEND ME ONE MORE MESSAGE, I WILL GET A RESTRAINING ORDER, AND GO DIRECTLY TO HR ... AND YOU KNOW I'M SERIOUS.

Gawd, how perfect is THAT?   - she gets to call me every bad name in the English Language, before forbidding me to reply, to even SAY ONE WORD in response - because after all, let nobody forget that she's suuuuuuuuch a sensitive little lamb fearing the big bad wolf who just won't "respect her boundaries".   What's a proper young lady to do but notify the authorities!    Yup, that's her version of playing "fair".     And what really sucks is I can't say a word after that.   Not one.   And she knows it, and I know it, and she knows that I know it.   Go ahead and try doing the same thing - write her a nasty-gram, and end it with "AND DON'T YOU DARE CONTACT ME AGAIN OR I'M GETTING A RESTRAINING ORDER" -  she will laugh like the Wicked WItch of the West, cackling "dude, what, are you kidding ?    Need I remind you who is the true victim here?   Hello, Mr Police Person - this is Victim Veronica, can you run this cute lil restraining order over to my terrifying boyfriend, oops, I mean EX boyfriend, and while you are there, can you drop off this note I wrote him ?   Thank you SOO much, officer.    I do so like a man in uniform.    

Or possibility # 2.   You get nothing back.   Ever.   And that really sucks.   So I'm sorry it went there.

But this is all in the past for my situation.   Once you take sex off the table, the situation changes completely.   Easier to deal with - a lot easier in fact.   What used to be unbearable becomes somewhere between "annoying" and "ridiculous"

[Cat Familiar]

Perhaps my reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. She’s your ex from some years ago, she’s 22, you’re 43, and you’ve been happily married for 10 years.

The math suggests that you were married when involved with her?

[CycleBreaker123]

Perhaps my reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. She’s your ex from some years ago, she’s 22, you’re 43, and you’ve been happily married for 10 years.

The math suggests that you were married when involved with her?

The somewhat accusatory tone of both your comments  leaves me feeling somewhat attacked here - I provided the 22/43 numbers as an example of just how quick people are to make snap judgments  based on nothing but two numbers.   It occurs to me that you have made a decision here, perhaps based on this year’s headlines - I’m certainly aware how ME2 and the JE scandal make it challenging for people to not immediately assume all sorts of morality violations - but I posted here to taLk about an awkward friendship with someone who suffers with BPD.    I provided no details about the specific timeline because it occurred to me as having nothing to do with my questions.  All I know is I’m certainly not feeling welcome in this forum right now, given your long standing history here

[Cat Familiar]

I apologize for any accusatory tone my questions might have had. I was trying to get a better picture of how this difficult friendship might impact your life.

And having previously been in a relationship with a husband who had affairs, I must admit that I wondered how this friendship affects your wife.

I had no intention of casting aspersions about you possibly dating an underage woman--the numbers you gave made me wonder if that was the age she was when you first began dating or if that's the age she is now and if that were the case, then thinking you might have been dating her while married.

Yes, you are right to call me on it and I hope we can get back on a better focus.

That said, I do understand how older men can mentor younger women without any sexual component. I experienced that myself in a previous occupation.

My current husband has friendships with women in which I don't participate much and it's totally OK by me. So I do understand.

We are so limited by this modality in how we share information, so I do tend to ask questions and some times they're pointed. Mea culpa. I was hoping to get more of your story, and I do hope you'll accept my apology and fill in more detail.

Cat

[ColdKnight]

Cycle,

You are absolutely right it was a self indulging text. Writing it I knew I should have taken the high road and wished her well but I didn’t want to. I wanted to get everything off my chest that I was to afraid to say earlier for fear of setting her off.

As far as her not responding, I am not surprised that she didn’t and kind of expected her not to. Did part of me hope she would send something back? Of course but for her to respond would be for her to acknowledge that she read the message and processes the things I said about her. Much easier for her ego to not reply and pretend she never got the message. At this point I’m sure she truly believes she never got the message.

I told her that I would avoid her at work and that she needed to do the same but if we did have to speak that we would both be professional. I also told her I would never contact her again.

The text was what I needed to move on and ensure that I was the one who never initiated contact. For me to do that would mean swallowing a ton of pride and I have already done enough of that already.

Do I still miss her? Of course I do but that will fade...it is already

[CycleBreaker123]

I apologize for any accusatory tone my questions might have had. I was trying to get a better picture of how this difficult friendship might impact your life.

And having previously been in a relationship with a husband who had affairs, I must admit that I wondered how this friendship affects your wife.

I had no intention of casting aspersions about you possibly dating an underage woman--the numbers you gave made me wonder if that was the age she was when you first began dating or if that's the age she is now and if that were the case, then thinking you might have been dating her while married.

Yes, you are right to call me on it and I hope we can get back on a better focus.

That said, I do understand how older men can mentor younger women without any sexual component. I experienced that myself in a previous occupation.

My current husband has friendships with women in which I don't participate much and it's totally OK by me. So I do understand.

We are so limited by this modality in how we share information, so I do tend to ask questions and some times they're pointed. Mea culpa. I was hoping to get more of your story, and I do hope you'll accept my apology and fill in more detail.

Cat

No worries.   Gawd, I sure wish my friend could craft an apology like that.  It would make all the difference in the world to her relationships with people, if she could only write out the occasional apology.   Where she actually means what she says, etc.
  Sadly, she can't though.  I'm convinced that accounting for her awful behavior at times is literally not in her operating system -   If ever I was to send her a message along the lines of my "not feeling welcome" message above, where I state how I"m feeling some discomfort over something she did or didn't do but she should have - she would 100 percent go radio silent for a minimum of six months, and it would take at least a full year until cute emoticons starting appearing in her messages again, signaling the "all clear".   

As I said previously, my wife is not exactly a fan - I mean - show me a single married woman who is going to be supportive of her husband's one-on-one friendship with an unattached younger woman.   Not Going To Happen.    Yes, your hubbie may have a female pal or two whom you tolerate, but I'll be willing to wager his "female friends" haven't shopped in the "Junior Petites" department for quite a while.   Possibly never.    My wife and I have worked out some hard and fast rules - total transparency, spouse has first dibs on time and attention as well as having any feelings of discomfort respected on demand.  And the last one - I'm never allowed to complain to my female friend about my marriage - not even ONE TIME.   

My mistake posting here was probably saying that I was "happily married ... "     Because who says such a thing in this particular forum, dedicated mainly to partners of people who suffer with BPD?    Has anybody with a BPD partner, ever described themselves as "happily married" ?    I'm sure doing so would get one chased off the boards in no time.   So please scratch the "Happily Married" reference.     What I meant to say was I am "comfortably" married - not much drama - sometimes I'll vacuum even, possibly even do the dishes - and (here's my PRO TIP for Husbands who wish to spice things up) ... I'll slip our couple's therapist an extra $100 each month to always agree with my wife about stuff, NO MATTER WHAT.    Slam dunk, easy peasy - bribing one's couple's therapist to always agree with the wife is solid GOLD when it comes to keeping little things from becoming ISSUES. 

[CycleBreaker123]

Do I still miss her? Of course I do but that will fade...it is already

Yup, I think we all cherish the false image of the make believe Too Good To Be True person we fell for early on. 

[Skip]

Hey CycleBreaker123, breathe!  You're really wired.  That's OK.  Let's just keep that energy directed at the people in our life, and deal here on a level-headed basis. We're all here to work through difficult life situations and also improve our self-awareness.  

The best place to start is to break it down, get the solid narrative to work from. In some of your posts you indicate that you have been married for 10 years and others you imply 8 year. If the former is true, it means your relationship with this girl and your wife were concurrent, in the latter is true, they were serial. There is no judgment. These are just facts. Without them, all we are left with is broad generalizations and books are best for that. We have thousands of members who have been in affairs, and/or in relationships with younger people... It's just a fact in the narrative.

Mentoring

While we are waiting on your response, I'll talk about mentoring; mentoring anyone.

I mentor a number of people and some are much younger. There are books written on the subject of being a good mentor. One thing often mentioned is healthy boundaries. We don't want to become too involved, or more involved than the mentee can handle. Our advice is always for their consideration/discretion.

A good mentoring relationship develops a level of respect and co-commitment over time. Some people are sponges and your support really helps them and they know how to connect with you in a rewarding way. Some mentoring relationships don't develop as well and may be abandoned by either party or relegated to a secondary mentoring status (with someone else have a more constructive/productive relationship with that person). Some mentoring relationships go nowhere.

A wise mentor reads the signals and responds accordingly. If I was mentoring a mentor (you), I'd say you are holding on too tight.  For example, if I had a mentee stand me up, I take it it on the chin (it happens) and I'd pull back - let them earn their way back if they want. If it happened twice, I'd start redirecting my efforts to where they are more productive. Maybe it's not the place or time.

In my read of your situation, I don't think it is helpful to think of yourself as her mentor. If that is the intent, your expectations are out of bounds.  I'd try to understand your relationship with her based on something else. The mentor/mentee doesn't really fit here.

Friend

In my relationships with my friends, I do not have the emotional indignation that you have when things go wrong. For example, I have a close friend who I wrote a very personal note to who hasn't responded in 10 weeks now.  She's my friend. Life is busy. I will  eventually talk to her. Either she will contact me or I will ring her up. If she doesn't mention the note, I'll be fine. It was important to me, but she has a lot of more important things in her life, like her family, and I know if she had the time, she would have contacted me and talked to me. I'm ok that life got in the way. I know I have overlooked things with my friends at time. Friends are very forgiving. It's a universal acceptance thing that most friendships possess. We all hold on loosely with friends - if they are flaky we avoid getting into positions where that can affect us. That is not what is happening here with you.

Can we be a friend to an ex-lover? What are the healthy boundaries on friendship? How do you deal with a flaky friend?  Anyone?

Parenting

Can we be a parent figure to an ex-lover? I'll open that question to everyone. Is there anything mutually exclusive about being an ex-lover and a parent-figure? Is it healthy/realistic to evolve from one to the other? Anyone?

So drilling down... what type of relationship are you in? What are realistic expectations?  What is healthy?  Should you rethink all of this?

[Turkish]

Can we be a parent figure to an ex-lover? I'll open that question to everyone. Is there anything mutually exclusive about being an ex-lover and a parent-figure? Is it healthy/realistic to evolve from one to the other? Anyone?

No. It's not healthy. My ex asked to move back with me two years ago, seperated but stil married to her husband.  A few months ago, she asked to borrow $25k to fix her credit card debt, despite calling me "cheap" in front of the kids sometimes. "You're always about money!" "Why dont you buy a new car, you can afford it!" She already owes me money for shared expenses. I pay her child support. 

One of my friends, 11 years older than me,  observed, "you always seemed to have a father-daughter relationship." During the dissolution, my ex said, "I needed someone to lead me and guide me,  and you failed." I was horrified, yet underneath it all,  that's part of what attracted me to the r/s, she 11 years younger. It wasn't healthy then,  and it isn't now as I feel even more used, yet with no benefit.

I have 3 kids, after a fashion. 

[Cat Familiar]

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