71 year old newlywed man in love with 56 year old "BPD"

[AngloIsraeli]

Hello everyone
This is my 2nd marriage and she and I connected long distance and I fell in love with her over 3 months of phone calls.  We lived together, on and off, for a year before we got married this past January.  In the beginning, there were bouts of unbridled aggression and insults which I was able to put aside. 
It got worse about 3 months ago, after we moved into our new apartment.  She is 15 years younger and works, and must be right all the time (which she is most of the time), but when I disagree, I am put down and she lashes out at me.  I listened to something she said, and followed up on it (did something stupid) which made her lose all control and ask me to leave the house.  She has stopped communication and I still would love to be with her, I fell madly in love with her.
We are now thousands of miles apart and communication is at a standstill.
Not sure what will happen next.  Except in every case I fell like I lose

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[AngloIsraeli]

Wanted to add that I was totally blindsided when she kicked me out.  To add insult to injury, I of course did everything wrong.  Is there any chance I should try to get her back

[Ozzie101]

I'm so sorry, AngloIsraeli! That said, I'm glad you've found us here. BPD is a tricky and difficult thing but we "get it."

If she's kicked you out and there's been no communication, I'm not sure trying to get her back is on the table at the moment. Sometimes, the best way to accomplish a reunion is to be patient and wait for her to contact you. If you push, it could drive her farther away.

Has anything like this ever happened before with her? Do you feel comfortable sharing a bit more about what happened three months ago?

[AngloIsraeli]

Thank you for the response.  So let me start at the beginning.  My BPD wife was my late wife's best friend.  She and my late wife used to travel together and get together whenever they could even though they were 8,000 miles apart.  When she did travel with us, I always ignored her because she was my wife's friend.

After my late wife passed, a circumstance got us talking on the phone for 3 months before we decided in a neutral city, Vienna,  We spent 5 days together that were some of the best of my life.

I then went and spent a month living with her and her 18 year old daughter to see what I was getting into,  I missed all of the signals because I was madly in love.  We had a massive fight, that made me go to the airport to leave.  As I was in line waiting to check in, she called and asked me to come back and I did.

I then spent a year, on and off - not all the time - living with her, making plans for the future, buying a condo, letting her use her artistic genius to decorate and furnish it.  In that period her daughter was having panic attacks, and that was, in retrospect, raising her defense levels.

We got married in January of this year, and everything seemed great until we moved into the new condo.  Things started to go downhill.  I was walking on eggshells, but she also was saying the same things.  I kept believing that better and more communication and love and closeness would make it better.  It didn't

She has used multiple phrases within the Randi Krieger book about BPD, which makes believe she knows she has, but had 'conquered'.  I now know that trying to get closer to her brought it out when she really needed space.

I am going to a therapist and he recommended the Stop Walking on Eggshells book, and it is truly illuminating to me.  It seems that all of the techniques I was using to calm her down, were actually getting her more agitated.  I am still head over heels in love with her.  But don't know if this relationship will last.  I want it too, because she is smart, talented, beautiful, has been good for my emotional well being, of course, that was up until a month ago.

What next.  Ideas from you all will help   Thanks

[Turkish]

I've seen this a few times here,  where the other partner picks up on the validation attempts and calls the member out as using known tricks or manipulating.

Can you give an example? Maybe we can help fine tune it.

[AngloIsraeli]

She will say that my facial expressions are critical, or if I make what I thought was constructive criticism it turns back on me, whether work or behavior based.  Then when I tried to stay away, that also backfired because she was using it to say i disapproved.

[AngloIsraeli]

The following is from an email I got from her in response to "I want a relationship".
Her words follow:
Let’s start with  - ‘I want a relationship”  You know when you would ask for more of something, anything and I would ask you why do you need / want more and you would answer, “why not?”

Here is my answer to your ‘why not’. Just because you want it doesn’t mean you should have it. Let’s take an analogy of a freshly baked batch of chocolate chip cookies – you had one and it was great and you want another. Why shouldn’t you actually ask for another…. Ummm let’s see.

1.       It isn’t good for you in the long run, even though it will immediately make you feel good.

2.       There are other people who the cookies are for

3.       Part of not acting like a 4 year old is knowing when to put limits even if answers #1 or #2 are not relevant.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AI-

I am very sorry for the pain and confusion you’re feeling right now.

I’m sorry to ask this, but how long after your wife passed did you begin communicating with your second wife?  Are you comfortable sharing the circumstances around how that communication began? 

You did state that she and your late wife were best friends.  You say you “ignored” her when she traveled with you and your late W.  Was that because you may have had some feelings for her then and were trying to keep those feelings appropriately hidden?

Is your W now living in the home you recently purchased?  What are your thoughts on that?

Sorry for all the questions.

When I look at her email, it seems kind of childish to me...comparing a relationship to cookies.  Personally, I can be either a very deep thinker OR a very simple thinker.  Given a choice?  I lean toward simple... and if cookies are involved (I frequently bake) I hold a PLATE out to people, NOT a single cookie.  That’s how I look at life.

Do you understand what I mean?

At this point in life, (I’m 61 and so is my uBPDbf) you’ve got to wonder if you’re willing to “negotiate” every for feeling, thought and cookie that remains.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[AngloIsraeli]

Gemsforeyes
I started talking to her a month after my first wife passed.  She was great at helping through the grief period.  We talked for 4 months before we met up.  I started talking to her after another friend told me she had been on the phone with her and had told her that my late wife had told her she thought this was the end - she had never told another soul.

Yes she was best friends with my late wife.  When we traveled together I had no feelings towards her at all except she was a fifth wheel.

She is now living in the apartment that I purchased and I want to be in home more than anything.  Yes I want to be with her, and I am working with a therapist to figure out if I can handle this for the rest of my life.

On another note, I suspect she knows she has BPD, and went through therapy many years ago, and thought that it had been conquered.  Now I have to figure out how to tell her eventually that I know this

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AngloIsraeli-

Thank you for the clarifications about how the relationship with your W began.

Just as an FYI, it is generally recommended that we NOT tell our partners that we suspect they have BPD or traits of BPD.  It can come across as an accusation that we think they’re mentally ill.  Potentially very bad outcome.

I myself did not honor that rule.  After over 5 years with my uBPDbf (undiagnosed BPD bf), last December I actually expressed extreme anger at him for the first time.  In response to his cruelty, I lost my temper and forced words from my mouth that I thought would make him go away permanently.  That was my intention... I NEEDED him gone.

I said something to the effect of “people like him with Borderline Personality Disorder who refuse to get help will NEVER get better! ... BLAME OTHER PEOPLE, blah blah blah...”

I was mean and felt horribly guilty a few weeks later.  My T worked with me on the Guilt and told me to release it- that uBPDbf wouldn’t recall details of what I’d said. 

The thing is...it somehow worked to our favor.  But only because of the work I did between late December and when I welcomed him back the first of May.  When I did what I did, I was fully prepared to never see him again.  I took a HUGE risk.

Okay... so AI... if you’re comfortable, can you explain what took place to cause the split a month ago?  What was it that triggered your BPDw to tell you to leave your home?

Has there been no contact at all since that time?  Did she say she just wanted some space for a period of time?  Can you provide any detail about the last real contact you had with your W?  Does she actually expect to STAY in the home you just bought without you in it?

Is her 18-year old daughter living with her mom in the condo you bought?  Can you provide some details on the mom/daughter relationship?  You said above that the girl suffers panic attacks... is the panic an ongoing problem or periodic?  Is the girl’s father in the picture?

What is your W’s history with other relationships as far as you know?

I know these questions may feel intrusive, and I apologize.  With more information and insight, we’ll be able to provide better support for you in ways to approach your W and this relationship.

I know with my uBPDbf and I both being in our early 60’s now, it’s vital for us to be willing to “take care” of one another; and not flee at the first sign of sniffles.  What is your W’s leanings, from what you can tell, as far as compassion for other people / “you” as her husband?

“Love” takes all forms.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[AngloIsraeli]

I noticed in another post the talk about how when there is more free time, the chances of being harangued by the BPDw increase a lot.  Since marrying her, I have gone out of my way to  reduce the time spent on tasks and give us more free time together,  She was a workaholic when we first got together putting in over 80 hours per week.  Because I had the financial wherewithal, she didn't have to work 3 jobs, and that extra time seems to have boomeranged at me.  With that extra time, my facial expressions, or comments would be likely to trigger a response.  Never even thought of that till now.

So another 'nice' thing I thought I had done has come back and bit me.   The learnings I get through this website are truly awesome.

Don't know where I am going to go, but at least I have a lot of information to make the decision

[AngloIsraeli]

As I said previously, she blindsided me and kicked me out of new house.    I have been meeting with my therapist and determining whether to end the relationship or go forward in some way or shape.  What has become obvious is that at some point in time she has known she has BPD.  She has used terms found in "stop walking on eggshells" and from the lexicon of the definitions.
She said to me as I was leaving "I didn't sign up for your problems and I do n't know if I want to invest in the relationship" (almost verbatim).  She never told me that she BPD.  With my therapists help I have been trying to find a way to get her acknowledge.  I sent the following note to her, (we really haven't been communicating except for logistics) "I know"

Let me know what you think. 

[Ozzie101]

The note didn't appear, AngloIsraeli. Do you think you can try to paste it again? We'll take a look and let you know what we think.

[Gemsforeyes]

Did you simply write a note that said  “I know”     ? 

And expect that she would pick up that you “know” she received a BPD diagnosis at some time in her past?

If so, I wouldn’t necessarily count on that having any impact at all.  It may in fact just escalate in a way you haven't anticipated.

I sincerely hope not.

Can you clarify... is she not only living in the home you bought, but are you also providing additional financial/monetary support (if she’s in fact still working less).  Is this support for her and her 18 yo daughter?

If so, dear friend what ARE you deriving from this relationship and in which areas can we best help you?  Has your W indicated any interest in or “terms” for reuniting?

Aside from your T (therapist), do you have close friends or family members who provide you with emotional support?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes 

[AngloIsraeli]

Yes she is living in the home I built and paid for.  I am providing financial assistance as well, even though I am not there.

On your note, I truly believe that she knows, that she was lost in BPD in her 20s and did many things.  She refuses to even talk about the period.  SHe is totally ashamed of herself during that time period

Right now I am not getting anything from this relationship, kind of makes me the schmuck, but want to be with this woman.  I want to be back in my home.  But I am also putting in place steps If this doesn't work out

[Gemsforeyes]

There is the saying for a reason - to put on your OWN oxygen mask FIRST before helping others.  It’s counterintuitive, but it’s got to be done, otherwise she will take you down with her.

Whether she received a BPD diagnosis in her 20’s is irrelevant at this point.  She’s 30 years past that time.  What’s important are her behaviors now, her traits now and what types of relationships she has or has NOT been able to sustain since then.  That’s why I asked those questions.

If she has done a complete devaluation and discard, her words may show that.  But I’ve no way of knowing that.  Can you share any of what she’s said to you? 

Through her relationship with your late W and you, and building your relationship after your W’s passing, she knew your kindness and generosity.  Hopefully her feelings for you were genuine and not a manipulation to get financial desires met.

If you can provide some insight around conversation, we can help with bridging communication gaps.

For now, are you just standing back and waiting for her to take steps to “welcome” you back to your home?

I’m glad you’re taking steps in case this doesn’t work out.  You don’t want to come out of this resenting yourself.

How can we truly help you?  Have you looked through the communication tools here?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes