Rebellion – Am I the crazy one?

[Libra]

Hi All,

Sorry to be back, but my head is mixed up and I don’t know where else to go with these things.

I am very confused of late. I am grieving the loss of a dear friend and father-like figure. Besides that, I received a very emotionless ‘Happy Birthday’ text message from my mother as well as my brother recently, and for some reason this has really messed me up.

I know I often come over as an over emotional drama-queen and complainer here. I don’t know why that is, I can keep that pretty well in check in my day to day life. I will try to keep this to the point.

I feel like 2 different people at the moment. There is the functional me, that continues with day-to-day life. That person seems pretty much in control, I would even say she’s quite out-going, assertive and pro-active (as long as there is no conflict, which – luckily – there isn’t often). You really wouldn’t think anything was wrong with her. The other me is inside. She is hidden from, often even from myself. At the moment she is very present. She is angry and sad. I cannot seem to shut her down at the moment. She reminds me a lot of the angry teen I used to be, with spiked hair, stomping around purposefully, daring anyone to make a remark so I could show them just how much a didn’t give a damn. Ahhh….Those were the days :LOL:

I have had the notion I should call my mother for a chat for several days now. I refuse to though. This has me in a double bind, because the feeling I *should* call her persists.
I am rebelling. Why the heck should I call? She cares f*ck all about me. We do not connect. She only cares about her grandchildren. There is no return on investment whatsoever for me.

I should state here: my mother had a crappy childhood. So did my dad, probably. They had a crappy relationship. I was not physically abused. I was emotionally neglected as a child. I have almost no real memories before age 11/12. I have so many questions regarding my childhood, but I cannot imagine me asking my mother about them without her getting very defensive, and I don’t know whether her answers would hold any truth. Her version seems to change to suit her reality.

I read threads here and I recognize so many of the feelings. But I do not have the traumatic history to go along with that recognition.  Am I just a sponge, living off of these threads and trying to have real emotions through them? Am I myself an bottomless pit that can never be filled?

Why can’t I just chat with my mother? Accept that she is who she is, and care enough so that I call her, not out of obligation, but maybe out of compassion and empathy? I know my mother is disappointed in me since I have gone LC. I simply cannot bring up the energy to engage more than I am currently doing. It makes me angry to feel the pressure of her disappointment, not being able to put that aside. On the other hand I feel a heartless b*tch for not caring more, for often wishing she was *gone* so I wouldn’t have to feel this obligation any more.

Huh…I wanted to make this to the point, instead it is all over the place. I apologize
I feel an intruder here. I feel fake. I feel as if I am using you all just to get a thumbs up and to make myself feel better.
I am sorry. I simply have no other place to go with these feelings.

Libra.

[zachira]

We welcome your posting and sharing your feelings. That is what we are here for. It is so important to express what is overwhelming us at the moment when we have dysfunctional family members that do so many things that would bother any normal person. I hear you when you say you feel like two people: the one that fuctions well with normal people and then the overwhelmed one that feels lost when the problems with the dysfuctional family members crop us again. You will continue to see more of your normal healthy self as you continue to deal with the feelings that come from having dysfunctional family members and following through with the boundaries you have set with them. It is a terrible burden to have to deal with these type of family members whether we are in contact or not.
My heart hurts to know you have lost a friend that you loved so dearly. Perhaps at this time, you are feeling more affected by having family members that can not treat you with the love and kindness you received from your dear friend who was like a father figure to you.

[Panda39]

Hi Libra,

    It's always okay to vent here. 

I'm sorry you've lost your friend.  It's unfair to loose someone that is family in your heart and still have to negotiate biological "family" that don't feel like family.  I hear you grieving your friend.

I've also had that feeling that I'm 2 people, feeling in control of part of your life when another part is a mess, you aren't alone there.

How about you take the weekend to take care of you and give yourself permission to not call your mom.  Remember your friend, do you have a story you would like to share about him?  Why does he have such a special place in your heart?

Panda39

[Libra]

Zachira,

Yes, I can see now that I was totally overwhelmed. A whole mix of confused feelings had been piling up for a couple of days. I had not acknowledged them properly, instead I tried to push them away.
It is comforting to know I am not the only one that feels like two people sometimes. I guess in a certain sense we should be happy that we are able to function quite normally, but it is sad that we need to do this. It is unfair, and at the moment it is still making me angry.
I am grateful I had such a good friend. Our contact was very sporadic these last 2 years, since he moved back to the UK. He was struggling, both mentally and physically. I feel saddened that he could not reach out to me, especially since he had my back for so many years, counter balancing the messy interactions with my mother.
Thank you for your warm words and your constant presence here for others Zachira, it means a lot.


Libra.

[Libra]

Panda39,

Yes, I was grieving, though I did not truly accept/realize it. Thank you for seeing through  a very chaotic post and noticing.
My friend was a true Englishman. We shared a love for the same kind of books, we shared a love for languages and would banter in a mix of English, French, Dutch and Spanish. He taught me some Cokney rhiming slang. We shared a love for horses. But mostly, he accepted me for whom I was. Heck, he even SAW me. He supported me, and counterbalanced the very unhealthy messages I received from my mother, often actively negating them. He moved back to the UK after his relationship of 15 years fell apart, and we spoke less and less. He was struggling, and that saddens me. I guess I also feel guilty for not being able to help him more. His passing was tragic and that pains me a lot.

Thank you Panda, for letting me share some memories of my friend.

I hope you are doing well and that you are enjoying your 'new' living arrangements.


Libra.

[Libra]

Hi again,

I am still struggling with the question of whether I should call my mother or not. Yesterday a new layer was added to the confusion.

Some background info first: I am LC with my mother, which means that I call her about every 2 weeks for a chat. In between I send her mail updates sometimes when she asks how the children are doing. We see her very seldomly. During school holidays the children will spend a couple of days with her. She never initiates any contact, except when she wants to see her grandchildren, then she will ask when they are free and suggest to see them. For my birthday last week, my mother sent me a text message to wish me a happy birthday, and that was that. That still seems to bother me a lot.

And now for the new layer: D10 is allowed to bike home alone after school. She enjoys the hour of quiet time before I get home with S8. I was unexpectedly  home yesterday when D10 got home. The landline rang, so I answered. It was my mother. She said she had expected D10 on the phone, and asked me why I was home. I replied to her question and said: ‘Hello Mother. How are you doing?’ I got the deep sigh, the quavering voice and an update on her health issues. I listened and acknowledged for a bit, then passed the phone on to D10, as I had promised to get to school on time for S8. I heard D10 starting to chat about her day while I left. By the time I got back, the phone call had ended, and D10 was excited: my mother had suggested she come visit during the autumn school holiday. She could sleep over, and they could do some shopping. No mention of S8.

What troubles me:
I am no longer my mothers emotional caretaker, so I am no longer of any importance. I do not ‘merrit’ a phone call. I could go on about this point for a long time. I have always been accused of not keeping in touch enough, even when I phoned her daily, and even though my mother never calls me either (except when she thinks she’s dying  ). My mum’s birthday is in November. We usually pick her up and go walking or do a day trip together, and the children give her a present. I am very tempted to simply send her a text message. That would probably lead to trouble though.

So, my mother does call D10. I know she did once before. I now know that this happens on a regular basis, when D10 is home alone, right after school.

I realize my mother is probably feeling lonely and isolated. She travelled with friends more than 6 times this year alone. That helps keep her balanced. She has been home for over a month now. There are no more travel plans for this year, so she is looking for other means of being social and staying balanced. I am getting worried that she is enlisting D10 as her new emotional caretaker. D10 has a lot of empathy and loves pleasing others. She is also a sponge, and I don’t want her to soak up too much of my mothers mixed messages and melodrama.

When I told DH about the phone call and the invitation, he raised his eyebrows as well. He does not want her to stay over during the school holiday. Even to the extent he wants me to look for a day camp the children can go to, to block the possibility. He also refuses to let my mother bypass us to invite D10, and I agree. His reaction has made me even more worried, since he normally thinks I am exaggerating when it comes to my interactions with my mother.
On the other hand I am worried I am being overprotective. My mum is lonely, and she will not easily call me out of fear of being rebutted.  Am I being paranoid and is my mother simply trying to keep in touch with D10? There is so much frustration, sadness and anger mingled in all of this for me, I fear I cannot see clearly anymore.

All of this also heightens my reluctance to call my mum. Why should I? I have been neglected and bypassed. If I call her, what should I say? Should I address the issues? I cannot forbid her to call D10. She has never done anything really ‘wrong’ towards D10. Telling her I feel injured she never calls her own daughter will only make her defensive and petulant and is of no use. Simply acting as if nothing is bugging me is too fake. So what then?

Some advice would really be appreciated.
Libra.

[Notwendy]

I have a similar relationship with my mother. She really doesn't care much for me. However, I had a good relationship with my father for most of the time and so I think she had to tolerate me for that. Yes, I am her biological child but there is little motherly emotion from her with me. She's pretty cold.

But she wants a relationship with my kids. She sees them as "HER" grandchildren. The fact that I am their mother is an inconvenience to her.

Naturally when they were little, they were with me all the time. As they got to be pre-teens and teens, she began to attempt to get them alone and triangulate them with me. My mother sees people as on her side or not her side. I am not "on her side". One thing she likes to do is get others alone with her to share "secrets" with them, some are lies about me. She would do this with my kids.

This is a boundary violation- to solicit someone's child- to call them up and tell them you will visit them without asking the parent first. It's at least common courtesy. Would you call your 10 year old child's friend and speak to her alone, then invite her to play? Of course not. You would not allow this with your own child either.

My other concern is that my mother has poor boundaries emotionally. She would treat my kids as her peers and also began to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. Your mother may be lonely- but she also may be leaning on your 10 year old to make herself feel better. This is not your child's job. She may begin to feel obligated to her grandmother.

I set some major boundaries at this time. My parents were not happy about it. My mother did not like it. She's gone about trying to violate them in various ways. She gets satisfaction when she thinks she can call them or text them and I don't know about it. They are young adults now, and have their own boundaries with her. As they got older, I shared some information about my mother and about BPD with them. I have reinforced their own boundaries with her- they know they are not responsible for her feelings,  but they are polite to her and behave respectfully.

This is tough, but a first start might be to supervise phone calls from grandma. Maybe tell her to be talking to grandma when a parent is home. This doesn't restrict her communicating with your mother but set a time to talk when you are there.

[zachira]

Of course, it is still making you angry having to deal with your mother with BPD and her latest round of dysfunctional behaviors which affect you and your family. From my experience, it helps to remember that anger is often covering up underlying sadness. I have found it helpful to sit with my feelings until I can feel the underlying sadness which than helps me to have compassion for myself and whoever in my family of people with BPD is acting badly in the moment. In my experience, the name of the game with people with BPD is to get others to feel their uncomfortable feelings. The challenge for those of us who have a mother with BPD is to not take on the projected feelings of our mother with BPD. I agree with you and hear you pain when you talk about how terribly unfair it is to have to spend a life time dealing with a mother with BPD. Our mothers with BPD affect us when they are living and when they are dead because of all the harm they have caused. Having a mother with BPD is in some ways like being a mother and having a child die, in the sense that there is life long grief, though the type of grief is clearly quite different when a child dies versus having a mother with BPD. I know parents who have lost a child, who go onto having happy productive lives after their child has died, while always taking time out on a regular basis to grieve the loss of their child. Those of us who have a mother with BPD I believe have a similar challenge in that we need to take out time to grieve on a regular basis so that most of the time we are happy and productive and the moments of feeling overwhelmed and angry by the meanspirited behaviors of our mother with BPD negatively affect us with less intensity and for less time. I am glad you are reaching out to us. I also respect you for putting your children first, and the fact that you are so different from your mother with BPD. I too love to practice my foreign languages, and I think being so interested in the world of others, is what has allowed me to better understand myself and my family members. Can you tell us a little more about your love of languages? The members who post here are much more than people who have suffered from having a family member with BPD. We are people in our own right.

[Panda39]

Yes, I was grieving, though I did not truly accept/realize it. Thank you for seeing through  a very chaotic post and noticing.
My friend was a true Englishman. We shared a love for the same kind of books, we shared a love for languages and would banter in a mix of English, French, Dutch and Spanish. He taught me some Cokney rhiming slang. We shared a love for horses. But mostly, he accepted me for whom I was. Heck, he even SAW me. He supported me, and counterbalanced the very unhealthy messages I received from my mother, often actively negating them. He moved back to the UK after his relationship of 15 years fell apart, and we spoke less and less. He was struggling, and that saddens me. I guess I also feel guilty for not being able to help him more. His passing was tragic and that pains me a lot.

He sounds wonderful and it sounds like you shared a lot in common.  I know what you mean about he SAW you...the authentic you.  People that relate to us in that way don't come along often but when they do it's like we've known them forever.  It's sad but also understandable that when he moved back to the UK that the physical distance made the relationship more difficult to maintain, but it's my guess that if you had seen each other again you would have picked up right where you left off.   

I am still struggling with the question of whether I should call my mother or not

The landline rang, so I answered. It was my mother. She said she had expected D10 on the phone, and asked me why I was home.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about calling her for awhile, you talked to her on the phone yesterday when she called and you got a lousy, invalidating, dismissive response from her, what's the point of calling her again so soon.  Take the pressure off yourself try to stop worrying about a phone call.  I know it's uncomfortable, it sounds almost like there is an internal alarm clock that says when it's time to call her.  Maybe try to push through the discomfort. 

Hang in there 

Panda39

[Libra]

Notwendy,
I am sorry your relationship with your mother is so cold. I know that is a hurt that never really goes away.

But she wants a relationship with my kids. She sees them as "HER" grandchildren. The fact that I am their mother is an inconvenience to her.

The only reason my mother re-initiated contact after I had instated NC, was to ask if she could still see the children. I thought at the time this was her way of avoiding/negating what had happened before the NC. I thought she wanted to try rebuild a healthier relationship with me as well, and so we transitioned into a form of LC. Now I think it was a lot simpler: access to the children truly was her main – or even only - goal.
And right after that thought comes a chastising voice: how can I be so suspicious of my own mother? What has she done to deserve that? It feels completely wrong to be so suspicious and untrusting of her and her motives.

One thing she likes to do is get others alone with her to share "secrets" with them, some are lies about me. She would do this with my kids.
Your mother may be lonely- but she also may be leaning on your 10 year old to make herself feel better. This is not your child's job. She may begin to feel obligated to her grandmother.

Yes, this is what worries me. Loyalty is very important to D10. She only recently learned that standing up to a friend who had gotten into the tendency to start bullying her is not being disloyal. It took all of her courage and a lot of support from us to stand up for herself like that. She is very high on empathy and her emotional intelligence is baffling sometimes (to me, at least). If my mother makes her into a confidante, I’m not sure we’d be in the know. I worry D10 would not tell us because she would want to ‘protect’ her grandmother, who she really does love. She knows/feels well enough that the r/s between me and my mother is sub-optimal, so she will not easily discuss her with me.

I set some major boundaries at this time. My parents were not happy about it. My mother did not like it. She's gone about trying to violate them in various ways. She gets satisfaction when she thinks she can call them or text them and I don't know about it. They are young adults now, and have their own boundaries with her. As they got older, I shared some information about my mother and about BPD with them. I have reinforced their own boundaries with her- they know they are not responsible for her feelings,  but they are polite to her and behave respectfully.

On one hand I strongly feel we should be doing this. But I fear the consequences. Stating these limits feels very confrontational. I will get pushback, not only from my mother, but also from my brother. Honestly, my current LC is an easy way out. It is so much easier than setting real boundaries. I thought that would be enough, as the children don’t see her often enough to get pulled into her dynamic. These (weekly?) phone calls change the situation. When I asked D10 conversationally how grandma was doing and what they had talked about, she did not go into detail. Normally you have to slow her down when she starts talking, now she was reserved.  Aaargh! Am I being paranoid?

I have still never truly stood up to my mother. I think – for myself – I never will.  Now I have to try to find the courage to defend my children. Shame on me that I do not do that automatically. I loathe that this is so deeply ingrained in me.

Notwendy, how did you share information with your children? How much should you share? How do you keep it objective and unbiassed? D10 loves talking with my mother. She listens to all her anxieties and little fears, and then incorporates them into her own experiences and feelings. This makes D10 feel special and bonded. I know D10 will defend my mother if I set up boundaries and try to explain why. I don't know how to manage that.

Ugh, this is such a mess…
Thank you for your input and your honesty Notwendy, it is much appreciated.


Libra.

[Libra]

Thank you Zachira, for acknowledging my anger. I often still hear an inner voice telling me I have no reason to be angry, that I am making mountains out of molehills.

anger is often covering up underlying sadness

Is it? For me they are both present currently. I sometimes feel like a hurt little kid, which is very confusing when being fully active and functional as an adult in an adult world.

we need to take out time to grieve on a regular basis

This is new to me. I had hoped I could grieve hard once and then let go and move on. I now have to admit that this grief can pop back up. It is unwelcome and hard to shed.

I too love to practice my foreign languages

Another kindred spirit.  I lived abroad as a child, and so got immersed in a lot of different languages. Somehow they sticked (much less so with my brother). I love how other languages can help you approach a subject in different ways. I love the fact that I can bypass a word I cannot remember by describing it or by looking for alternatives. I have very little imagination, I am a practical soul. I can be creative through playing with words and languages though. They give me a sort of freedom.

We are people in our own right.

Yes we are!
I know this in – almost – every situation. I might even defend it a bit too vehemently sometimes. But put me back in my old context, and it gets very hard indeed to remember this, let alone defend it.

Much to think about again Zachira.
Thank you.


Libra.

[Libra]

Hi Panda,

if you had seen each other again you would have picked up right where you left off.

Exactly! This is a big part of true friendship for me. It is a rare thing though.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about calling her for awhile

Thank you Panda.  Somehow, hearing that this is okay helps me let go of that thought. I do not experience it is an internal alarm. Instead I wonder if I am being too grudging and spiteful.
I do know however that I am shoving some really hot potatoes ahead: the D10 issue, my mothers birthday that is looming ahead. If we do start new boundaries now, it will affect S8s’ birthday and the end-of-year celebrations. Things the children really look forward to.

One step at a time I guess…


Libra.

[Panda39]

I do not experience it is an internal alarm. Instead I wonder if I am being too grudging and spiteful.

  I respectfully, think this is conditioning or FOG.  It is okay to have boundaries...like not talking on the phone as often with people that are abusive, dismissive, hurtful etc.  Boundaries are about protecting ourselves it is not about punishing someone else.

I share this a lot because it's so true...



Panda39

[Libra]

Thank you Panda   

My credo has always been: "Do not do unto others what you don't want others to do unto you".
In this situation, it would mean that I would not refrain from calling my mother because she is dismissive.
It is a fine line between ''doing what is right" and having boundaries to protect yourself.


Libra.

[Libra]

 

A short update.
D10 became a river of questions recently. She started by carefully asking why I wasn’t in more frequent contact with my mother, why I had so many fights with her (?), and why they couldn’t see her more frequently. When she noticed I replied openly and not defensively, the flood gates opened. We spent a couple of hours talking off and on.
I tried to explain a couple of things to her, without going into too much detail and without turning my mother into a culprit or a victim.
I told her Gran had to call us – the parents – to set a date to see her grandchildren. It was not okay for her to do that via D10, who had no idea of our complete agenda.
I told D10 that I wasn’t currently angry at Gran at all, and that there wasn’t any fight now (though Gran might imagine there was). I told her that there had been a big fight, and during that fight some things happened that have made me more careful, and I took steps to take better care of myself. If I get pushed into a situation where I feel I have to defend or justify myself for something that isn’t true, I will now take a step back.
I told her  I used to call Gran every day, but it never was enough. I used to call her out of a feeling of guilt, but I no longer do that now, and only call when I really want to tell her something.
My mother is apparently transferring subtle messages to the children, for example: when they’re at my mothers’, they watch a lot of TV. When my mum wants them to stop watching, she’ll say something like ‘Come on, that’s enough TV for today, I don’t want another row with your mother’. I told D10 that that isn’t okay. Firstly we would never start a row over something small like that. Secondly, it is Gran that wants you to stop watching TV, so she needs to take responsibility for that decision, and she shouldn’t hide behind an excuse to get you to do something.
I told D10 that it’s okay for people not to get along super well. Nobody is at fault, it just is. Just like D10 likes some kids at school more than others, that’s normal too.
She asked me what feelings came up when I thought about my mother. That was a hard one to answer, and I told her so. I said it was all a jumble of feelings, but that one of them I could clearly identify was sadness. This made her cry. She felt so sorry for me, she wanted to comfort me. I explained to her that she did not have to feel sad for me, that it wasn’t a permanent sadness, it comes and goes, like many other feelings. I explained to her that she needn’t try to carry my sadness for me, or to comfort me. I have DH for that, and adult friends I can talk to and who support me. Children already have so much to discover and learn about feelings and relationships and everything else. She shouldn’t worry about the feelings of adults as well, and adults should not lean on children for emotional support.
I told her the most important thing is to just be yourself, always and everywhere. With Gran, when she tries to guilt trip her (‘You never wear that dress I gave you, I am not going to buy you any more stuff!’), with the schoolboy who’s mostly a good friend but sometimes turns into a big bully, and also with the other schoolboy she’s secretly in love with, even if she thinks he might like her more if she behaves like this or like that.
She seemed relieved, at ease an happy at the end. I hope I did okay. I was completely drained the next 2 days.

My mother finally texted me to ask whether the children could come over to her place during the fall holidays. After discussing with DH, we agreed they could go for a day, and they would stay 2 days at my MILs. So I called my mother for the practicalities. She said she was disappointed, because she ‘wanted to have them all week, but oh well’. I did not get into it.
She turned all waifish and asked ‘Is Christmas still happening at all, and whether we were doing presents’. I responded that I didn’t know why we wouldn’t do christmas like every year, and yes, I thought we would be doing presents as well. She then switched again, and demanded ‘Then you’d better get those present lists ready asap, because I om NOT going to go shopping in December, and it’s already October!’. I bit my tongue and again didn’t go into it. I regret that now. I initially wanted to say ‘You know what, if that’s too much for you, then let’s just leave it be.’, but I feared her response and so I shut up.
Again, she didn’t ask anything on how we are all doing. She doesn’t know DH is now also out of a job, she doesn’t know what is happening in our lives. She clearly feels left out and lonely, but I am too tired of putting in all the energy and getting nothing in return.

Thanks for reading. It always helps to just get things out of my system and share here.


Libra.

[zachira]

I think you were really as honest as you could be with your daughter, though I am not sure if she can handle all that information at her age. I am wondering if you would ever consider not allowing your children to be alone with their grandmother, that you or your husband would have to be present at all times. This could be really difficult, as your mother would fight this new arrangement like crazy, and would do everything to make your life hell. I am concerned as you are about how your mother is manipulating your children and the permanent harm she could be doing behind your back. It is so hard to know what to do, and there are no easy answers, as all boundaries set with your mother will involve her doing what she can to upset you. Clearly if this woman weren't your mother, you would not have her in your life. What do you think?