Can't quite put my finger on it - Part 1

[Enabler]

Hiya,

I'm having trouble working out how to frame the current shenanigans in my divorce process. I can't quite put my finger on why she's acting accordingly.

Brief history... mid Sep she sends me an email re exchanging financial details with each other on the 25th Oct with a view to handing them over to a mediator service to compile a legal pack for the court on the 11th Nov and having a meeting with mediator on the 25th Nov.

I agreed to timing and committed to producing bank statements etc in-line with legal requirements of the process and in-line with not obstructing but not enabling a divorce that I don't agree with. I also raised the question of telling the children forthwith because I am sick to death of the deceit in our home. She did not agree on telling them ASAP and agreed to see a counsellor together to discuss, and agreed to provide a list of potentials. The email I sent was pretty inflammatory... not rude or aggressive, just stating a lot of facts and a lot of examples. It addressed things like outright deceit in general with me and the children and how her it needed to STOP. With the amount of detail I gave in the email regarding times and chronology it would have been apparent to her that I journal. 

25th came and went, I did not proactively hand over my financials and waited on her to be proactive in a process she desires. I planned to email her in the next few days requesting formal handover of financials to mediator and meeting be delayed since we'd not exchanged as per agreement. Anyway, yesterday, I receive 2 emails, one was a valuation of our home dated 28th Oct, and the second was an email telling me that another firm were coming today to do a second valuation. I replied with the following:

Thanks for arranging this element of the financial process.

I'm not sure why but for whatever reason the date we agreed for exchanging financial info has been and gone on the 25th Oct. I had my financial info prepared as agreed on this date. To preserve the originally agreed schedule I suggest we reschedule the submission date and meeting with mediator to reflect this delay.

I am also concerned that we have not made progress with arranging the meeting with a counsellor to discuss telling the children. What is the status of this?

So, despite living in the same house, she's hoarding information about valuations being done on the house, the valuations and other things relating to the divorce process... and I just don't get it. Is it shame, is it guilt, is it contempt, is it a power thing, is it her saying "you can journal as much as you like, I can still do stuff and you won't know"?... I just have no clue whatsoever. FWIW she did this before and I said loud and clear that all information pertaining to the sale of the house should be forwarded to me ASAP and I should be cc'd on any emails... which I thought was pretty reasonable.

Any thoughts?

Enabler

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Enabler-

I know this is a difficult process for you, and one you didn’t want to go through at all.  But it seems some steps toward divorce or separating are being taken...

If I recall, ALL forward motion in this process was placed purposely in the hands of your W.  You’ve stated that since she’s the one who has repeatedly said she’s wanted the divorce, she will need to be the catalyst toward getting there.  There have been a lot of discussions around this.

So, how I see this is that there hasn’t necessarily been “hoarding” of information.  Unless she held onto the original home valuation for months and then shared it with you?   But no, it was dated 28th October.  And even then, who paid for that valuation?  Joint funds?  Could you have called to see about the valuation yourself had there been a delay?

Enabler - if you choose to know nothing, want to know nothing, she’ll be more apt to share as little as possible until absolutely necessary- because she knows how poorly you’ll react.  This has nothing to do with the fact that you may keep a journal of times and events.  Many people do that.  Especially people living in contentious situations.

It may be best when attending a counseling session to not only discuss disclosure to your children, but disclosure of things to one another.

I’m so sorry, Enabler.  Maybe it’s time to face that the status quo isn’t good for anyone anymore?  Not the children, not your W and not you.  When the motives and thoughts behind each action, no matter how small,  are questioned It doesn’t even feel like living in parallel anymore... at some point that just cannot be good enough.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Enabler]

I see your point. The valuations are a free service offered by real estate agents and comes complete with their terms and conditions of fees for marketing the home.

I have never asked to know nothing, I have just said to her that she in essence needs to do the heavy lifting for once. I think it's reasonable to expect these things to be forwarded on immediately and for me to be informed of processes happening around the divorce. She has form in not informing me of things about the divorce process.

21/03/2017 – You come home from counselling and tell me you wish to get a divorce because I am abusive to you and the kids
Sporadic communication regarding the divorce
19/10/2017 – First legal mediation session
07/11/2017 – Second legal mediation session – instructed to complete Divorce Petition
04/12/2017 – Email from you detailing plans to sell the house and tell the children on 6th Jan
Sporadic communication regarding the divorce although no specific reasons for delay
28/03/2018 – You send off divorce petition but do not inform me
02/04/2018 – You inform me that you have petitioned for divorce
03/05/2018 – I receive divorce petition
04/05/2018 – I return divorce petition completed with no objections and inform you via Whatsapp
18/06/2018 – Divorce petition response confirmation and application for decree Nisi arrived
10/08/2018 – Decree Nisi application form sent off
No communication re Decree Nisi
24/08/2018 – Email from you requesting completion of financial analysis and disclosures
05/09/2018 – Discussion with you where you disclose that you have sent off the Decree Nisi application a month ago
01/10/2018 – Discussion about financials
27/11/2018 – Second discussion re financials
No further discussions
23/01/2019 – Discussion about her not being able to move forwards and not being able to move backwards
No further discussions
19/05/2019 -  Discussion regarding pushing the divorce process forward and “not being able to do this for another 10years”, and seeing mediator and getting him to facilitate. “Doing this for the next 10 years” hadn’t even been discussed.
23/09/2019 – Email from you regarding kicking off the mediation process with mediator again.


Why though? What mindset leads her to do this?

Also, what she doesn't seem to get is that I react slightly poorly because everything comes as a surprise!

[Gemsforeyes]

What I “think”, not what I KNOW... is that the valuation came in and she paused ... again... and then she moved... a week later.  She moves and then she pauses.  She gets “brave”, or angry and then she moves.  Then she gets scared and paralyzed and she stops and the process stops.  You ask questions and she issues a threat.

But in her darkest times, she knows, has always known, that so far at least, you’ve always been there and you won’t push this thing forward.  Because you love your children.  And by extension, you must also still love her.  And somewhere deep inside her she finds comfort in that.  She will not admit that, even if she had that awareness, which she may or may not have.  Not after what she’s done. 

So because you still love her, in essence you still hold the cards, the *power* in this thing.  She cannot let you know this. 

But... if you were to say “ENOUGH”.  You would find out how she feels.

That other person?  There are still many unknowns to her.  That’s been an escape.  What happens to her with him if it becomes “real life”?  Too many questions for her to address.  You, my friend are reliable, a ROCK solid man in her life.  That guy?  He left his W.

Do I make sense?  What someone does FOR you they will also do TO you.  You see?  She looks at you, she looks at him, she looks at you.  You.

But she never, NEVER looks at herself.

I could be way off.

Warmly,
Gems

[Enabler]

I wish you hadn't written that. It gives me hope in a hopeless world.

I've known this could be true, and the rational part of me says it should be true.

She has yet to respond to my email request yesterday, so likely I may have to take control and dictate what is fair to 'the process'. That's risky since I don't want any finger prints on this divorce in the slightest, and she would like me to be controlling since then she can point the finger and say... look... there... he's being controlling again.

How to skirt round the minefield?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I also don't see what she did as with holding information. She asked you for information by a certain date- that date passed so she took the situation into her own hands- and she informed you of it.

I understand you don't want her to see you as "controlling" nor do you want to actively initiate steps to divorce. But not complying with something can also be seen as controlling or passive aggressive. In actuality, you can't control what she thinks. She's going to think whatever she thinks. Doing something to try to control how she perceives you- is a form of co-dependency and that is in some ways controlling.

As Gemsforeyes says- it's not possible to know what she is thinking, but with the push pull, she can pull for this divorce as long as you are resisting and still feel safe. What would she do without this safety net- you being steadfastly there for her? We don't really know. She might see things differently or not. It's a risk.

For her to be in victim mode, there has to be a bad guy. How she sees you is influenced by this. She's in a triangle with OM as rescuer. I don't think it is possible to change how someone sees things. At some point, your decision will just need to be what is is, no matter how she sees it. But there's a difference between doing the work of divorce for her and cooperating. I know you say you aren't stopping her, the cage door is open, but not complying with her deadline could be seen as a barrier. Perhaps more of this should be in the hands of a
mediator/or lawyers which would keep your fingerprints off these negotiations?

[Red5]

Good morning from the eastcoast,

I want to chime in here, I got a little different "wang" on this,

If Mrs. Enabler was as miserable and distraught as she tells Enabler she is (thinks she is), and she thinks he is abusive, and controlling … then NOTHING is stopping her (cage door open) from packing a "bailout bag", and going out into the big bad world on her own, & and finding her own place (domicile), she could rent a "flat", a small efficiency apartment, even move back in with her folks, maybe her sister('s?) … but no, she has a comfortable, warm, and secure life where she is now … and as its pretty "cold outside", she is in no hurry to just "up and leave".

I think, she is selfish, … she won't leave, until she is sure she can fill her red wagon with half of the marital assets, … that Enabler has worked hard all these years to provide her, and that's the BLUF : (

Does she pay the mortgage, does she contribute to the monthly upkeep / bills of the homestead, probably not … I'd have to read Enablers past posts … but I'm pretty sure she is not the primary provider, Enabler is the primary provider, and has been all these years, and she has "enjoyed this" ... I don't even think its close to 50/50 …. is she capable of a self sufficient type of existence, probably not … if she had a mind too, I bet she could, but she doesn't have a mind to "strikeout on her own", and finally and once and for all escape evil Enabler's controlling abusive tyrannical rule (sarcasm) … she can't match on her own, the "lifestyle she's come accustomed to" … I hear this ALL the time … in other "circles".

And then there's the OM, if he is really who he "is" to her(?) … he could support this … but I think we all know what the OM is really about … "because" … if you want to know what your new man, or woman might do to you one day, … look no further than their ex … the "source data" speaks for itself,

I think Mrs. Enabler is dragging this out, for several particular reasons …. perhaps she is a "bridge burner",... a "well poisoner" … a "scuttle'er of ships" … in her mind, she knows what she is doing is wrong … and she is continually struggling with this inside her "false self", that protects her underdeveloped "authentic self" … so "on her way out", if she ever has the guts to actually follow through with the entire bitter enterprise …. she will ensure she destroys everything, being the marriage, the long term relationship investments, built up family assets, the secure and ironclad future of her three children, encompassing the "secure home" … and for what … her own selfishness, that's what ; (

… another goofy Red5 analogy, playing off of Enablers "enigma machine analogy's" … when the U-Boat is forced to the surface by the sub chaser, … surrender of the warship, and crew is either inevitable, or required now by "circumstances" … so what does the U-Boat Korvettenkapitän do … well he will destroy that enigma machine first of all (look this up, very interesting) … and then the "Skipper" may order scuttling charges to be set, so that the submarine won't so easy fall into "enemy hands", but sink to Davy Jones locker as soon as the crew abandons ship (selfishness) … so as the crew "abandons ship" … at this point, there is now NO "return" to how things were, … it will be a "one-way" trip after they leave out the hatch of their comfy, and warm submarine ... into the wild and angry ocean …. and the U-Boat Korvettenkapitän will ensure this "one-way" trip, thusly destroying the submarine, and any means of reading messages (enigma machine) and any chance of "going back" for the crew …

Women leave their husbands every day … if they really want out of that metaphorical "submarine", … they aren't going to mess around with "how much the house is worth" … no, they will just leave … as well acquiring less debt, and finally responsibility post marriage as possible, transferring it all to thir s2b ex husbands, plus credit card bills … its easier to "travel" if you are not so encumbered ($debt$) …

As Enabler has described the events and circumstances for quite a while now to us … "I think" … that if Mrs. Enabler really wanted out, as bad as she seems to want Enabler to think, she would have been gone a while ago … but its "cold outside" … and OM is too wishy washy, he only wants "supply" … not commitment … and he isn't capable of it either imho, ... just look no further than his own "sinking U-Boat" of a marriage … his wife and kids are his "crew", and he has left the ship, and has set his own "scuttling charges" …. I hope his wife and kids can swim … what a selfish basterd … and deep down inside, in Mrs. Enablers thoughts, in her inner mind … her "enigma machine radio room", she KNOWS all this to be true! …


A youtuber I've been listening too for a few weeks now, he refers to the three basic tenants he strives to live by, and also how he … (it guides) him to interact with others … "respect (mutual) - dignity (self and others) - and civility (behavior)".

I like this … in order to treat others with respect and dignity, and civility … we must treat ourselves this way first … the "OM" is incapable of this...

Yes, this is personal to me.

... just my thoughts … you hang tough Enabler!

Red5

[Enabler]

She sent me all the documents yesterday evening and I in turn handed overt mine. She claimed I didn't seem bothered about it yet when I checked the time stamps on the PDF documents they weren't done until the 28th anyway so after the 25th deadline she set herself. Also, one of the forms she's had to fill in is complete nonsense, it's using data from 2017 not even updated as she said she would. Again, I don't get it, it seems like a very lame effort to push a divorce along being sloppy about the process. Again, my guess is that she wants me to pick holes in her efforts... or lack thereof.

Either way she wants to be the victim.

Enabler

[Skip]

I haven't followed your story that closely so please forgive me if I cover ground that has already been covered.

Divorces can be collaborative. Rarely are they cooperative. You can work together to get it done, but different that things in your marriage, you are not working with common interests.

Coupled are cooperative. That is what you have mostly experienced with her. That is now gone. You are on opposite sides of a lawsuit.

She is doing and saying things to serve her self interests. She willing to collaborate (good). You are looking/expecting cooperation. That is at the root of why this doesn't make ant sense.

In a divorce, everyone is best served to keep it as business and accept that the goal is to win (like in a football game). The players are collaborating (showing up, agreeing to rules and locations) and then the will complete. They collaborate and abide by not inflicting bodily injury. The don't cooperate.

If you don't want her to go, she filed, she's going. You have to be very careful that she doesn't use your hopes "to retain the relationship" to her advantage (because you only 1/2 compete). Also know that even if she wants the divorce, there are doubts and regrets, and concerns about children that make this less than black an white.

Living together with children totally complicates this - but the root is still the same.

If it was me, I would move forward and try to command performance, without inflaming - if we don't have an agreement by ___, I will tell the children alone. The idea of being passive and taking responsibility for the divorce - I think its a nuance that I don't think will matter to the children one way or another.

 

[FaithHopeLove]

I apologize if this has already been covered but is mediation an option ? Not with the goal of reconciliation which seems to no longer be possible but to help the divorce process to be as cordial as possible for all

[Enabler]

Thanks Skip and FHL,

My W eluded to asking the legal mediator for a neutral contact to discuss telling the children with. I took the matter into my own hands today by directly contacting the legal mediator guy to request a contact. I’m pretty sure this is something my W does not want as it brings her fantasy and reality much closer together. Who knows what the counsellor will say but at least I will have the opportunity to put my case forward. They friends know for heck’s sake!

I’m pretty sure that she is pushing for financial and physical separation because she yearns for ‘freedom’ but she’d ideally like this without the pressure of the children knowing their lives are imploding. She wants the perfect guilt free divorce. Alas I refuse to supply that for her.

Enabler

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey Enabler-

When I wrote my last response to you, I had an inkling there was room to read “hope” in there.  I was “in her head”.  And it seems that kind of where Red is as well.

I do still think the way my post states.  There are a lot of unknowns “out there” for her.  I don’t like referring to that “other person”.  I don’t like bringing him up.  But I guess he has a role in this play. 

I’m ignorant here in that I don’t know whether y’all are still acting like a family (other than in church?).  Are you sitting for supper together?  Reading, playing games or watching movies as a family together? Having outings with your girls together?

So far, whatever interactions she’s had with that person have NOT involved any kids with needs.  It’s been oh so light and eeeasy... a cocktail, or bible study with no little ones needing a bath or supper or help with homework.  Pure convenience.  Pretty hair and makeup.  Sorry for the picture.

Back to point.  Maybe for you, you take her temperature so to speak.  None of us, least of all codependents, wishes to stand in the way of another’s “happiness”,  Correct?  So, maybe you change the dynamic.  With a brief email that’s “not really” poking holes in her lame attempts to fill out divorce documents.

Something like:

Dear Enabler w-

On x date (see below) you sent the attached email stating that you wish to divorce me.  I am sad about this, and sometimes  frustrated; because I still care deeply for you,  US as a couple, and always dreamt that we would raise our beautiful girls together.  Your decision to divorce has been hard for me to accept, because I still believe if we got proper help we could find our way back to each other. 

If this is your decision, I will honor and respect it.  With that mindset, let’s both complete the required paperwork completely and accurately to reduce conflict and streamline this already difficult process.

I have always been honest with you in our relationship and I want those values passed to our girls.  In light of that, I will sit with them on x date and tell them that you will be getting a flat, but love them to bits.  Our separation has NOTHING whatever to do with them; this is an adult decision and we will always be friends.  Blah blah blah

My thinking Enabler, is that this takes any “pressure” of you being the instigator off of you, let’s you establish some ground rules, and perhaps inches this one way or the other.  She’s either IN or OUT.  And you DO deserve some motion.  And... she wants to leave?  Let HER leave...  is that in the realm of possibility, or am I dreaming?

I’m sorry, painful...I know.

Thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[FaithHopeLove]

I am glad you went ahead and contacted the mediator about telling the children together. As incredibly painful as this is for you and your wife they are the ones who will be impacted the most through absolutely no fault of their own. I say this as a step mom who has lived in the aftermath of my husband's divorce. As a sign of hope I can tell you that his daughter did eventually heal and so did all of us including his ex but it was his daughter who was 5 at the time of their separation who hurt the most.

That said I hear what you are saying about your wife wanting this to be an easy pain free process. I totally agree that that is not reality. But I am not sure I agree with you about WANTING  your wife to feel guilty. Perhaps I misunderstand but it seems like you want to punish her. While that is understandable I don't think it is useful. You are both going to experience a range of intense feelings. For her as a pwbpd those feelings are going to be extreme. I know you are incredibly hurt by her actions but wishing her additional pain is not going to help either of you
 
That is why I am saying put your children first. Let the mediator help you both talk to them in the best possible way. No doubt they already know something is amiss. They deserve an explanation.

Hugs
Faith

[Enabler]

But I am not sure I agree with you about WANTING  your wife to feel guilty. Perhaps I misunderstand but it seems like you want to punish her.

Morning FaithHopeLove,

I can see how you might have interpreted what I said as wanting my W to suffer, that's not really what I meant. I suppose if I explained it metaphorically it might help. In a sense I see my W liking God... and she likes people who act like God for her as well. What I mean by this is that God takes away all your sin and absolves you from the guilt and shame of that sin... that's what she wants, she wants someone to take the blame, take the shame and squish it up and carry it for her. I'm not God, it's not my job to do that for her... I'm not even her parent... a parent being someone whom should kinda love their child unconditionally... I'm a separate person to her. I'm not her emotional rubbish bin.

Because of this, it's important for me to be impervious to her attempts to either swerve the adult responsibility of accepting the guilt and shame that an adult making choices should endure, and especially where she attempts to make me responsible for her guilt and shame. I used to write about a burden bag (we all have one), one of the burdens I used to carry was the burden of guilt and shame of our relationship failure/issues. I'm not saying I don't still rightfully hold some of that responsibility in my burden bag, I just have a heck of lot less of it. It's not mine to carry. Maybe she gives it to God, maybe God hands it back to her and says "you need to atone for this before you can hand it to me". She can leave it on the floor, point at it and even scream about it till the day she dies... but I will not pick it up, it's NOT mine and I WILL NOT carry it for her. I will live with my actions of the past.

Gems,

I've definitely written that type of mail to her. I have offered help to her in the past which she has not accepted. She's paranoid that somehow I will "do her over", so relies on her support network to do the work for her because she "doesn't get finance".

We still do some family things together but pretty much only in the home, like family meals etc. Until recently we would do family days out. We usually do a family trip to town at Christmas to see the lights and go out for dinner, I don't know if she will come this year. It seems she's okay with doing things where 'others' wont see her acting in a normal family way. There's narrative management there.

Enabler

[FaithHopeLove]

OK. That makes sense. Picking up her burdens won't help her. It will only make her miserable. I hope all goes well when the two of you finally tell the kids

[Notwendy]

My guess is that the kids might already think something is up.

They also may be wondering why OM is in the picture as much as he is.

I agree with being sensitive about when/how to tell them. They may not know anything but I think they could be wondering. Dad is home with them in the evenings, Mummy goes out...Dad and Mummy don't seem to like each other.


I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.

[formflier]

I think it's important for you that you tell the kids YOUR STORY and YOUR TRUTH.  I wouldn't bend an inch.

This has seemed very important to you that you want your marriage and your wife doesn't, so she can own her side and you can own your side.

Now..that being said you know you can't stop the divorce so I would put a lot of thought into what the living arrangements will be post divorce.

Can you stay in your home and refuse to sell?  Let your wife go get whatever she can afford.  

I suggest this because this is another way to make your "statement" about who left and who stayed.

Switching gears to financials.  

If it's obvious she is not doing the correctly or using bum information, I would not give her your side.  She is the initiating party on this, so if she doesn't care enough to do it right.  I wouldn't expend any energy on this.

Last, I think it's helpful for you to work through this on this site.  I also think you should be clear that we'll never actually understand why she is doing what she is doing. 

It seems obvious to me it's a bunch of reactions to emotion/random thoughts than any sort of "plan".

Very sorry you are going through this.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Thanks FF and Notwendy,

I agree with being sensitive about when/how to tell them. They may not know anything but I think they could be wondering. Dad is home with them in the evenings, Mummy goes out...Dad and Mummy don't seem to like each other.

I think it's important for you that you tell the kids YOUR STORY and YOUR TRUTH.  I wouldn't bend an inch.

Our conversations so far about the topic of telling the children:

Enabler - I do not understand how informing the children will place undue burden on them, nothing I have read, learnt or discussed with T has led me to think this is the case. We can’t give them certainty at this point about some of the details, but we can give them certainty about most of the larger issues. I find it unfair that we are fostering a false reality, a delusion, for the children with them picturing hopes and dreams in a home and lifestyle that will not exist in a few months ahead. I also find it tough to rationalise that the children would not be unfairly burdened if I was to move out and told, yet they would be heavily burdened if they were told and I stayed until we all moved out?
 
The wording I have discussed with T is:
 
“I am sad about this but both people in a marriage have to want to be married and (I don’t / Mummy doesn’t) want to be any more. Therefore (I have / Mummy has) decided to get a divorce.”
 
Enabler W - No Enabler, it is not in their interest to say or imply that the divorce is one-sided. We simply tell the children that as they know we are separated – sleep apart, socialise apart, holiday apart – and that we don’t get along very well and it is not right for us to carry on living together so we are separating. We don’t put this on one or other of us because that is not in their best interest. It is not helpful for them to know that I am pursuing the divorce and neither is it helpful for them to know the deeper reasons for this. It is an agreement we have come to. We stand in solidarity otherwise it creates a worm of doubt in their minds that perhaps they can influence or change this. They need certainty and solidarity from their parents. If you have done any reading then you will know that No1 is presenting a united front. ‘Even if the divorce isn't a joint decision, you should present it as such and to incorporate the word "we" as much as possible when explaining the decisions that have been made – we don’t want to be together, we love you, it’s our fault, you’ve done nothing wrong.’ So either T is advising you contrary to advise or you are misinterpreting him.

Enabler -  T advises solidarity in the facts and be as truthful as possible. If the children cannot verify the facts we present with what they know and see, they will distrust us. I would like to discuss this with a family counsellor but am saying it out load that I will not be telling them this is something I ‘want’, this is something I have ‘accepted’. For the reasons I have given above, why should I trust that you won’t skew a neutral narrative to a different narrative after the fact? A narrative that exonerates you from the guilt and shame you’re so desperately allergic to? You have shown no evidence that you would not do this in the last 4+yrs. I would rather you tell them that you believed I was verbally and emotionally abusive and allow them to make up their own minds.

With regards to living arrangements, I am super super excited about the idea of buying a different place (staying put would require me to get a £600k mortgage and I believe holding onto the dream would be a fools way of not accepting reality) and getting my hands dirty. I have eyed up home or two in the local area that I think would be awesome for me (and the kids when they come to stay).

Enabler

[formflier]

I would resist any notion of "doing it for the kids" if "doing it for the kids" requires you to be silent about your truth, especially on a matter that is so deeply embedded in your values as your marriage and faith are.


I don't think you should "negotiate" with your wife anymore about what will be told to the children.

Less is more.  I will speak my truth about my feelings and values about marriage.   Or something along those lines.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

With respect to staying put or leaving.

Can you schedule things to the move is the absolute last thing that happens. 

I think there is a powerful statement to be made about you staying home and your wife "leaving".

I also think (although I would recommend you ask T) that you understand if keeping "home" intact as possible for a while is good or bad or indifferent to the kids.

Best,

FF

[FaithHopeLove]

I suggest this because this is another way to make your "statement" about who left and who stayed.

Kids don't care who left and who stayed. They only want to know that they are loved and safe. Save the blame game for another time.

[Enabler]

I don't believe not attempting to come to a workable solution is beneficial for my long term relationship with the kids (and co-parenting with my W for the next 12 years). My W is keen to consult professionals on the matter (in the hope that they side with her), I am also happy to consult professionals. As Notwendy suggests, the kids have enough awareness such that they will be able to see through any neutral comment (especially if delivered by W NOT ME), I don't see this as ideal but I am happy to side with professional advice having put as much information on the table as practical.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Can you schedule things to the move is the absolute last thing that happens. 

That is completely my plan... conversation thus far. 

Enabler - Over the past few years (documented) and beyond, I have evidenced clear benefit to me being in the home, not least as remaining parent as you fulfill your social and church related commitments and training. I have made a commitment to our children (and you when we married) to do whatever I can to be there for them, making them my number one priority. I am without any doubt that they are aware that I am honouring my commitment to them, and I have no intention of reneging on my word.
 
Enabler W - I agree with what you say Enabler that you have been there for the children. I am not questioning that. However, I am now discussing the process of divorce and how we put the children at the centre of that process. Do you think it is in their best interest for their parents to cease living with both parents at the same time as leaving their home? I do not think this is in their best interest, I think it would be better for them if they got used to us living apart before they then move to a new home.

Enabler - I believe that I have put the children at the centre of everything I have done, more so in the last 3.5yrs (as previously discussed). Given the high level of interaction I have with the children on a daily basis, including the 151x (41.37%) evenings in 2018 and 118x to-date evenings in 2019 (40.41%) I cannot see how them living apart from me is beneficial, which is just one of the reasons I so vehemently disagree with your divorce decision. I naturally find these %’s odd given the accusations of my abusive behaviour. I cannot rationalise how, me leaving and telling the kids is fine, yet staying and telling the kids is not fine or staying and being deceitful, propping up a delusion is also fine. I would like you to explain that to me please. I would see an optimal scenario where we tell the kids, we then SHOW them that we are capable of behaving in an adult manner, co-parenting effectively and SHOWING the kids that they are loved and cherished regardless of a known marital split in the same house. That to me is true adult behaviour, one where we both act in an adult way putting our differences aside for the benefit of the children.

Another consideration that you may or may not be aware of is D11’s significant abandonment fears. As discussed in May19, and Jul17, behaviours that maybe you see as D11 being awkward or difficult stem from something far deeper. Yes abandonment fears are a natural occurrence and children emotionally develop at different ages, however, I believe that D11 still has significant abandonment fears as evidenced by (just one example of many) Wed 2nd Oct 2019 where D11 objected to you going out again to a Summer Fair meeting. It sounded like you had agreed with D11 that you would make fewer social and volunteering commitments and she was dissatisfied with the changes she had seen. You invalidate her observations that you were out too much. If I were to leave our home before she does I am uncertain how she is going to process that. Unlike you I do not see D11's emotional expression as just a function of her being difficult or awkward, I see them as something far deeper, from a far more emotionally sensitive place. Yes she is much better than she was, albeit I don’t think the emotions have changed so much as she has accepted there’s no point in telling you as much anymore, and she has found far more healthy ways of expressing herself than crying on the floor kicking and screaming. The very last thing I am ever going to do is actively abandon her.

Enabler

[formflier]

Kids don't care who left and who stayed. They only want to know that they are loved and safe. Save the blame game for another time.

I 100% agree with this.  

As parents we often put aside "our feelings" because we think "it's best" for our kids.  As parents we are also tasked with teaching our kids the best lessons possible with the life we are given.

It's not about getting the kids or others to judge.  In this particular matter it's about speaking your truth.

For me...I've made two vows in my life.  One to my wife and one to my country when I accepted a commission in the Navy.  

I kinda sense that Enabler takes his vow for his marriage seriously.  I think he can express and act out love for his kids and also speak his truth.

Said another way, I don't see this as a dichotomous choice.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Enabler,

Lots of words being used in these emails back and forth.

I see your wife trying to negotiate a "plea deal" to get out easy.  

I don't think you should tell her or agree ahead of time to what you will say.  I do think you should talk about the "values" behind what you will say.

I would ask her about the values behind her decisions.

Again..sorry you are going through this.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I would ask her about the values behind her decisions.

That's quite a good approach. Although I suggest her value would be to protect the kids.

[formflier]

And also her value behind her decision to divorce.

Again...one of your primary duties is to parent you kids.  A lot of parenting is "passing down values".

So.."daddy...why did you go back to the store and pay for the item they didn't ring up at the cash register".  Perfectly appropriate question and conversation that is based on values...right and wrong, that kind of thing.

"Daddy...why did you?"

In fact, I had a conversation about this just this morning with my 3rd grader.  "Daddy..why did you fly in the Navy?"  My answer had a lot to do about my values and appreciation for freedom.

While I realize you would need to be very careful and think through ahead of time the words you would use, there are values you can pass on to your kids based on your decisions about your marriage.

I can't imagine that you "hiding" your values and the words and actions that flow from those values being a healthy thing for anyone in your family.

I'm going to make a call to my ex brother in law (we are still good friends) who faced a similar thing years ago.  My wife's sister was leaving...and cheating...and he knew it. 

Interestingly enough 2 older boys stayed with Mom and eventually the younger girl decided to live with Dad and have low contact with Mom (who regularly publicly would "devalue" her daughter)

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I would ask her about the values behind her decisions.

Not to invalidate this thought (which runs through multiple responses from different participants), I would like to offer an alternative perspective for consideration (with the others, of course).

If you want to do right by the children, make this no fault. It will take years for them to make sense of this and they will come to understand that divorces often aren't mutual decisions. They will likely blame one parent and harbor resentment. The more you try to orchestrate this, the worst it might be for you. The reality is that both parents will, over time, implicate the other parent and the kids will have to make their choice.

Forcing it now will most likely amplify your ex's JADE mode with the kids when they are alone.

You can't stack this deck and win. Hopefully you both won't spend years trying to win the hearts and soles like some divorced couples do - and will focus on being gracious to the ex.

As FaithHopeLove says, their focus is going to be on survival... to expand on her point, the only world they know is dramatically changing and the future is uncertain. If it was me, my focus would be on providing as much certainty as possible. We both love you. It will be a little hard being split up but you will stay with both of us each week, go to the same school, have the same friends. Mommy and I are friends - you don't have to chose who loves you more - we both do. We are all going to work together to so that you will have both if us in your life every day. This is where you will send time with Mom, this is where you will spend time with dad. This is how Christmas will be, blah, blah, blah.

This sounds different than what you T is saying because he is trying to manage two personalities (as he should). I'm skipping past that and saying, there is another path to consider.

Their focus is going to be on minimizing the change and/or change for the better (e.g., new dog).

[Skip]

And also her value behind her decision to divorce.

Clarification question...

Is this to encourage her to abandon the divorce reconsider honoring her vows for reasons of faith and/or character? Is this to encourage her to take the blame before the family for reasons of faith and/or character? Other...

What's the underlying intent here?

[Cat Familiar]

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