I have similar issues to damaged people - emotional volatility and abandonment

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I see myself as bumping up against damaged people. I see that I have similar issues to these damaged people, namely emotional volatility under duress and abandonment/rejection issues. I have a sense that these things 'shouldn't' be happening to me and that I 'should' be in healthy and loving relationships like my sister. Her husband died in the summer after they had been together for 40 years. She talks about her terrible grief and how he was her 'better' half. She says after all those years they are were linked in so many ways, intertwined like the neurons in the brain. He never criticised her and loved her unconditionally and turned her faults into virtues. Nobody sees her like he did. I felt jealous of what she had but also a sense of how rare and wonderful that is. I have sought something similar my whole life. You only have to look at the name I use on here to see how I view myself. I may not be equipped to have that kind of relationship with anybody, certainly not anybody damaged who requires me to be their emotional caretaker, however much I love them.

I don't think anything is being done to me. I think I am a flawed character who doesn't really know how to function healthily in relationships with certain people without becoming emotionally triggered. However, with my wife, we never really had those problems. She has told me repeatedly during our break up that she has never found me to be unreasonable or volatile to her. She saw that I had a few temper outbursts here and there but feels even those have calmed to almost nothing. My ex on the other hand accused me constantly of being narcissistic and difficult with her. My wife laughed when I told her what the ex said and maintains that she does not find me narcissistic because I have empathy. She also says that she doesn't find me egotistical in the way that some people in my profession are. I have asked her repeatedly over the last few months if she feels I am disordered in any way. She has told me that she thinks the places I am finding women - ie in AA - has been my main problem. She told me to look outside of the fellowships for my next relationship. I don't say that to paint myself in a good light, but rather to say that while I am aware of things about myself that my wife is not (she is soon to be my ex wife in case you didn't know as she has a new partner) she is of the opinion that finding damaged women is bringing out the worst in me. I feel pretty much the same too. Not to say I don;'t have damage myself, but unlike my ex I can do relationships and live in relative harmony. She has never been in one for longer than a couple of years, including her marriage.

However, what does need to be pointed out here is that I was never really 'in love' with my wife in the way that i was with my ex. We didn't connect on a sexual level at all and it is in this arena where my issues are triggered. In the marriage I became bored and sought my sexual gratification outside of the relationship which led to a string of painful and damaging affairs. I'd like to meet somebody I had all of those things with that my sister talks about. That is my aspiration.

RF

[RomanticFool]

I see myself as bumping up against damaged people. I see that I have similar issues to these damaged people, namely emotional volatility under duress and abandonment/rejection issues. I have a sense that these things 'shouldn't' be happening to me and that I 'should' be in healthy and loving relationships like my sister. Her husband died in the summer after they had been together for 40 years. She talks about her terrible grief and how he was her 'better' half. She says after all those years they are were linked in so many ways, intertwined like the neurons in the brain. He never criticised her and loved her unconditionally and turned her faults into virtues. Nobody sees her like he did. I felt jealous of what she had but also a sense of how rare and wonderful that is. I have sought something similar my whole life. You only have to look at the name I use on here to see how I view myself. I may not be equipped to have that kind of relationship with anybody, certainly not anybody damaged who requires me to be their emotional caretaker, however much I love them.

I don't think anything is being done to me. I think I am a flawed character who doesn't really know how to function healthily in relationships with certain people without becoming emotionally triggered. However, with my wife, we never really had those problems. She has told me repeatedly during our break up that she has never found me to be unreasonable or volatile to her. She saw that I had a few temper outbursts here and there but feels even those have calmed to almost nothing. My ex on the other hand accused me constantly of being narcissistic and difficult with her. My wife laughed when I told her what the ex said and maintains that she does not find me narcissistic because I have empathy. She also says that she doesn't find me egotistical in the way that some people in my profession are. I have asked her repeatedly over the last few months if she feels I am disordered in any way. She has told me that she thinks the places I am finding women - ie in AA - has been my main problem. She told me to look outside of the fellowships for my next relationship. I don't say that to paint myself in a good light, but rather to say that while I am aware of things about myself that my wife is not (she is soon to be my ex wife in case you didn't know as she has a new partner) she is of the opinion that finding damaged women is bringing out the worst in me. I feel pretty much the same too. Not to say I don;'t have damage myself, but unlike my ex I can do relationships and live in relative harmony. She has never been in one for longer than a couple of years, including her marriage.

However, what does need to be pointed out here is that I was never really 'in love' with my wife in the way that i was with my ex. We didn't connect on a sexual level at all and it is in this arena where my issues are triggered. In the marriage I became bored and sought my sexual gratification outside of the relationship which led to a string of painful and damaging affairs. I'd like to meet somebody I had all of those things with that my sister talks about. That is my aspiration.

RF

[Skip]

I see that I have similar issues to these damaged people, namely emotional volatility under duress and abandonment/rejection issues.

... and maybe impaired empathy; specifically the ability to understand what others are going through when it conflicts with your feelings?

Empathy is the ability to understand what someone else is going through.

Narcissists have extremely impaired empathy... we read about this all the time.

But there are lessor levels of impaired empathy. On of those is only being able to understand another person as it relates to serving us.

You had little empathy for your wife during all these years of the affairs. You even went as far as to say that she would be OK with the affair. You didn't cry for her or run to her side - you were critical of her.

You had little empathy for your affair partner when she was checked into a hospital for suicidal ideation. You were completely on a track that she was having sex with someone else. You didn't cry for her or run to her side - you attacked her.

You had little empathy for your second affair partner when she was feeling betrayed by your lies concerning your relationship with your wife. You even went on vacation with your wife.  You didn't cry for her or run to her side - you criticized her.

This is what is happening to you, right now.  Your ex is wallowed up in her feelings of your betrayal of her, and your non-constructive-reactions to her reactions to it.

She is wallowed up in her wounds just like you are wallowed up in your wounds.  Do you see that?

[RomanticFool]

I see a woman who betrayed me. A woman who made threats to destroy me. A woman who has physically attacked me. Are you saying I should overlook domestic abuse?

The r/s with my wife wasn’t working, which is why we are breaking up. It’s not true to say I didn’t have empathy for her. Are you saying that every person who has an affair is a narcissist?

I did have empathy for my first ex but I couldn’t run to her as she was married - nor did she want me to run to her.

As for my recent ex - I told her we would end up together and we would have done. Unfortunately she has proven to be unreliable.

That’s not to say I don’t own my part in these situations but my recent ex was abusive and whatever you say about my empathy levels I know that they are intact. You are defending a woman who is abusive - took a free holiday and then dumped me a week and a half later. I don’t want anything to do with somebody who behaves like that. I still love her but I’m looking after myself.

Perhaps you should look at your own empathy levels. You have shown emotional brutality to me on here at times when I’ve been on my knees. Now I’m stronger I just see that you don’t really know me so there is no point in reacting. I know who I am and how I behave towards people who are loving towards me. My recent ex doesn’t feel betrayed. She doesn’t care. She has moved on because she was using me in early recovery. She was never committed to me. She is the narcissist.

[Skip]

Are you saying I should overlook domestic abuse?

I don't think "domestic abuse" or "over looking" anything was in my response, RM.

whatever you say about my empathy levels I know that they are intact.

OK. Then you understand why telling her that you love her and sending her I love you notes when you are no contact is not being responded to.

Good. It would be good to share this.

I don’t want anything to do with somebody who behaves like that. I still love her but I’m looking after myself.

OK. "I hate you don't leave me".

Perhaps you should look at your own empathy levels.

I appreciate feedback. I will step back an think about it. Thanks.

[RomanticFool]

OK. Then you understand why telling her that you love her and sending her I love you notes when you are no contact is not being responded to. Good. It would be good to share this.

Putting myself in her shoes I would say that she is fearful of the dynamic between us. She will not allow herself to believe that I am a loving man because she feels that is not the case. She sees everything she has done as justified and doesn't believe she has done anything wrong other than responding to the pain I have caused her. She feels that I am not a person worthy of even talking to now, let alone being in a r/s with. However, on the odd Saturday when she is either bored or lonely, she'll dip her toe in the water of my love to see if it's still hot and she'll take that bit of validation as proof that she is a person of worth. However, she will go no further as I am a volatile man who is not to be trusted - plus she has better offers elsewhere...

OK. "I hate you don't leave me".

Or - I love you but you have hurt me so much I would be an absolute masochist to try to get you back into my life - however much I would love that to happen. I need to remind myself of all the abuse that went on so I don't carry on being a romantic fool and overlook the obvious - you are not committed to me in the way I am to you.

I appreciate feedback. I will step back an think about it. Thanks.

It seems to me that you have a knack of pressing on my sore spot. I can't work out whether it's because I'm over sensitive or whether you are delivering a thwack to my ego on purpose. I guess you are trying to hold the mirror up to me, to show me who I am. I don't think having affairs necessarily shows a lack of empathy. I also don't feel that dealing with extremely provocative women in unusually stressful situations indicates that I am empathy impaired. You have said to me on here that the sign of a personality disorder is how we react when we are under stress, but it seems to me that a large proportion of the population react badly under stress or provocation. I don't think arguing with damaged women over WhatsApp indicates a personality disorder either. I have been described by a close friend as an emotional thinker. I do wear my heart on my sleeve and the times with my recent ex that I walked out of her flat when she was getting in my face were out of self preservation. Also, when I went on holiday with my wife during the affair I was dying inside. That was not a happy holiday for me and I should never have gone. However, I was conflicted in my duty to my wife and my love for my ex. I was further conflicted because she was newly sober and I didn't know whether being in a r/s with her was good for her and whether moving in with her then was a good idea for her recovery. It was a time of awful conflict and looking back I wish I had the courage to leave my marriage then. Not because I think it would have worked with my ex but simply to save the agony having an affair caused all three of us. I did not go on that holiday having a great time and not caring about my wife or my ex. I was horribly conflicted, desperately unhappy and stuck. I should have had more courage. That does not equal a lack of empathy either. I was there, I know the empathy I felt for both women. I hated myself for being a coward.

[RomanticFool]

I would just like to add the following. I have been coming on here for two and a half years now. I came on initially because the woman I was involved with then had caused me a great deal of pain and anguish. At the time, not unlike now, I was in a great deal of pain and wanted answers to why this r/s had such a grip on me.

I learned then that despite her silent treatment, anger, unreasonable attitude towards me, the main issues lay with the way I was communicating with her. Over the next couple of years I tried to address my way of dealing with her, not rising to the bait of her chaotic emotional life and trying to show her empathy. I did that successfully for a while. She even offered to counsel me through my current difficulties. I told her that was a bad idea but she insisted it would be ok. She has now blocked me on WhatsApp and the friendship is over.

When I met my current ex, I thought all of my prayers had been answered. She was loving, passionate, sexy, intelligent and apparently even tempered. Right up until the point she hit me and told me that I reminded her of her mother. Then she started silent treatment and devaluation. I came on here hoping to get help with the r/s when it started going wrong. I was advised to be validating, understanding and to adjust my circumstances in order to give the r/s any opportunity to survive. I was also advised - correctly - that the r/s was doomed because it was founded in deceit and mistrust. The upshot is now that she has cut me off and is most likely with someone else.

In the normal course of events I am not a difficult man to get along with. I have managed to sustain relationships for years and many of them have been more good than bad. I’ve never experienced silent treatment before these two women, I’ve never experienced aggression or devaluation like these two women have visited upon me.

Some of the advice on here has confused me for several reasons. On the one hand whenever I’ve said I wanted to get either one of them back, I have been encouraged to stay away from them and not try to rekindle the relationships. Then when I take steps to do that I have been told I’m empathy impaired and have been with three different women.

However, my wife doesn’t think I lack empathy. She thinks I’m a coward for not being honest with her. She also thinks we drifted apart years ago and met somebody herself and is now happy. These other two women meanwhile have caused me a great deal of pain and unhappiness due to extreme behaviours. I did meet another woman in AA 20 years ago when I was single and had a torrid time there too. So what is my conclusion? I definitely have a part to play in my own difficulties. I have erred and been difficult and have contributed to relationship difficulties. But I’ve done that in other relationships at times too with healthier women. They never went silent on me. They never devalued me. They never came on holiday and then discarded me a week later. They never told me they had moved on after an argument they had started. They never physically attacked me, shouted at me in the street or demonised me. I’ve been through hell. I’m willing to take responsibility for my part in that. However, the r/s with my recent ex should have been the big one of my life. Despite difficulties of me being married and the dynamic between us, the love should have been strong enough to transcend all of that. It was for me. I’d have spent my life trying my best to make her happy. I now feel that the problem is not so much my behaviour but in the fact that my ex has left every r/s she has ever been in. Treats men as stepping stones from one r/s to another and has a temper that would frighten the devil himself let alone somebody trying to cope in a r/s with her. I’m no angel or a saint but neither am I a no hoper in relationships. Surely we all have to acknowledge that having a relationship with a woman who has my ex’s issues is an impossible task - unless you are a quasi counsellor and prepared to tolerate a woman who is volatile, self centred and lacking empathy. That is not me painting her black - I love her - it’s basically admitting the elephant in the room: 99% of relationships with disordered people end in failure.

[insideoutside]

No I wouldn’t. I don’t want her anymore. She has hurt me enough. That’s why I’ve blocked her. I’m going to get over her and spend my time on people who want to be with me and aren’t toxic. I’m worth more than chasing a narcissist who has absolutely no empathy.

But yet you keep telling her that you 'love her'.  You aren't moving on.  You are sitting, waiting for her to beg you to be back in her life.  From a woman's perspective; as Skip has said, it is needy behaviour.   I also believe Skip isn't sticking up for her but you are just not moving on and repeating yourself.  You don't appear to want to move on but rehash the same stuff over and over again.

[Skip]

You said your physician referred you for therapy. When is that coming up? Also, have you had a meds evaluation for anxiety and depression?

Brother to brother... we all see how much pain you are in and we care that you are hurting. Your mind is racing and your emotions are volatile (ecstatic if she texts you, devastated if she doesn't). You hate her. You love her. You understand your role at times. You are oblivious at other times. You understand your issues at times, at other times you deny them. You are defiant. You have been suicidal. You have a history of covering up your relationship hurt by jumping into another relationship rather than grieving and healing. You've been on this treadmill for over a decade.

You have to detox. You know you have to detox. You takes steps to detox. You scream (figuratively) in the night. But then you fall way back.

There is a lot we can help you with in terms of untangling this ball of twine and helping you see your stuff, their stuff, what is pathology, what is normal. You're not having any of that right now or for a long time. You just come her when you feel pain.

We've encouraged you for months to get in and get a meds evaluation. Get a professionals involved. And for heaven's sake, stop using your last affair partner as a therapist and confidant for you relationship struggles.

RM, as painful as this is right now, and we all know the pain you are feeling, you are in the most healthy place you have been in years. Your lifeless marriage is ending and your wife is moving on in 75 days. Both of your highly toxic relationships/affairs are over - one partner who was institutionalized for her illness - and have labeled an extreme narcissist. 

If you can grit this out, stay the course you can get on a healthy tract to a healthy relationship like your sister has. But, lets be brutally honest. If you wife wanted to stay in the house and either of the broken affair partners wanted to meet you for a weekend of sexual bliss - you jump in head first. These unhealthy relationships are only over because the other parties walked away. You couldn't do it.

But you can look at it as a blessing and a helping hand to your recovery - to changing your ways.

You have to see, clearly, and believe, totally, that healthy partners are going to avoid you until you get healthy yourself. That is why they are healthy.                  

Do you want help from us? If you do, you have to be vulnerable and engage. Having a therapist working with your too, would be good. Hearing it from two sources will make it more meaningful  - and he/she can delve deeper than we can.

Or do you just want a place to vent and get validation of your conflicting thoughts of the day?

One last thought - you are looking and for love and you thought you had it with each of your last affair partners. It didn't work out. Feeling that loss and yearning for that love is normal. You can have that.  But it is not going to come from any of these three women (wife, affair 1, affair 2). Those relationships were all close, but they just didn't work out.

Let's get you in shape for the next one. You have some training to do.  

[RomanticFool]

You said your physician referred you for therapy. When is that coming up? Also, have you had a meds evaluation for anxiety and depression?

I am on a waiting list. I think I have about four or five weeks to wait. I don't need meds. I'm past the worst now.

Brother to brother... we all see how much pain you are in and we care that you are hurting. Your mind is racing and your emotions are volatile (ecstatic if she texts you, devastated if she doesn't). You hate her. You love her. You understand your role at times. You are oblivious at other times. You understand your issues at times, at other times you deny them. You are defiant. You have been suicidal. You have a history of covering up your relationship hurt by jumping into another relationship rather than grieving and healing. You've been on this treadmill for over a decade.

I think you're a little behind the curve here. I'm not devastated any longer whether she texts me or not. Neither am I in denial. I just think you don't fully understand me and I get frustrated. The thing I am the most frustrated by is the conflicting advice. On the one hand you encouraged me to let my ex go - then when I make steps to do so, you berate me for closing the door on her 'friendship' attempts. It frustrates me that you can't see there is more to what she is doing than trying to be friends. This is a woman who has visited silent treatment on me for months and then suddenly comes back with a question about Netflix. She is most likely with somebody else too. That is what devastates me, not whether she texts me or not. This behaviour is what is killing me. I just want to get her out of my head so I can get on with my life. I countenanced the idea of getting her back, but I am waking up to the fact that she is terrible for me. I find nobody on here is giving me credit for wanting to move on. I am being told I'm in the same place and doing the same things. My life is intolerable and yet I am dealing with it. It is currently 3.30am - I just had yet another dream about my ex, my wife has stayed out all night with her new man. There is no denial about anything here, I am living it. It is all very real to me. I need my beligerance to survive. I am strong. I have survived my 17 year old brother dying, I survived my mother dying. I have survived the break up of many relationships. I am strong and I am allowing myself to heal - but make no mistake when my ex contacts me rather than feel ecstatic, it sets me back. I have blocked her on email and she has me blocked on WhatsApp and the phone. I have only asked her to call me so that I can prove to myself that it's all over. The weekend was the last straw. I see that she is contacting me for nefarious reasons rather than missing me. This is consistent with her other behaviours of rage, silence, blame, gaslighting, devaluation, threats of a smear campaign and discard. I don't want her to be that person. I wanted to believe she is wonderful and it was all me. It wasn't all me. It was mostly her. I'm not in denial of my part in it at all. I welcome advice to have better relationships, believe me. But I was dealing with a woman who displayed extreme behaviours and it has affected me deeply. If she is a narcissist - and I suspect she is - or a borderline with narcissistic tendencies, I need help to deal with her. I posted on here that I heard from her last Saturday. I asked for advice on how to deal with it. I didn't get it in time and acted on my emotions. Had I received that advice I wouldn't have texted her. I'm not blaming anybody, I'm just stating things from my perspective. I am in SLAA dealing with these specific issues. I am trying to get off the treadmill and have a decent relationship.

You have to detox. You know you have to detox. You takes steps to detox. You scream (figuratively) in the night. But then you fall way back.

I have been withdrawing from my ex since we came back from holiday in July and she dumped me. I am screaming figuratively and that is part of withdrawal. She is most likely having 'bliss' as she used to call it with somebody else. You have no idea what that does to me. I loved her more than any other.

There is a lot we can help you with in terms of untangling this ball of twine and helping you see your stuff, their stuff, what is pathology, what is normal. You're not having any of that right now or for a long time. You just come her when you feel pain.

I don't just come on here when I feel pain. I've posted over 1,000 times. That is alot of time invested in trying to recover. I understand what is going on here. I know I got involved with inappropriate women. It's interesting you use the ball of twine analogy because i used to have the image of a huge knot in my mind in my twenties that needed unravelling. It has become much bigger now. A ball of twine is a good image. To be frank, I need more help to understand their stuff as well as my own. Mostly what seems to be the feedback on here is that their thought process is entirely reasonable and mine is skewed. My ex is not doing things in a way that healthy people do. She has not said a single solitary word about our relationship because she is busy visiting silent treatment on me to punish me. The occasional sentence is to test the water and get her 'supply,'  I needed practical advice for this last communication, not just being told I lack empathy . It's kinda too late now because I muddled through on my own.

We've encouraged you for months to get in and get a meds evaluation. Get a professionals involved. And for heaven's sake, stop using your last affair partner as a therapist and confidant for you relationship struggles.

Again you're behind the curve. I have got the professionals involved and I'm on a waiting list for maybe another month. I don't want to go on meds. The depression is lifting and I don't feel particularly anxious. I am simply grieving the loss of a woman I loved. I am grieving the loss of my marriage. Exercise is helping me. I am no longer feeling suicidal. My affair partner has cut me off because she couldn't bear to hear about my recent ex. I told her it wasn't a good idea but she insisted. Then she cut me off and said we are no longer friends. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

RM, as painful as this is right now, and we all know the pain you are feeling, you are in the most healthy place you have been in years. Your lifeless marriage is ending and your wife is moving on in 75 days. Both of your highly toxic relationships/affairs are over - one partner who was institutionalized for her illness - and have labeled an extreme narcissist.

I do see that. I have days where I feel quite excited about my future. Then the pain of thinking about my ex (who lives 10 minutes away) most likely in bed with another man, rips at my heart and derails these positive thoughts. However, the intensity is becoming less. I don't think the first ex was a narcissist - I think she was borderline. Though she tells me that in all of her psychological assessments for her course they told her she was NOT disordered. So I have to take her word for that. From my perspective, her behaviours look alot like BPD - her cutting me off confirms that.  I believe my recent ex is either NPD or BPD or both. I know she is the most emotionally brutal woman I have ever encountered. This is obviously going to affect me since I was deeply in love with her.

If you can grit this out, stay the course you can get on a healthy tract to a healthy relationship like your sister has. But, lets be brutally honest. If you wife wanted to stay in the house and either of the broken affair partners wanted to meet you for a weekend of sexual bliss - you jump in head first. These unhealthy relationships are only over because the other parties walked away. You couldn't do it.

I am gritting it out. If my wife wanted to stay in the house, I wouldn't be upset because financially I'm in trouble and we get on very well as friends. However, she is moving out and I have accepted that. If my recent ex wanted a weekend of sex I'd turn her down. I'd meet up with her and discuss her behaviour towards me and then never see her again. I am not in the market for being used. My first ex is long gone. I have more self preservation going on right now than ever before.

Remember I have turned down two women recently. One of whom decided I am the love of her life and has had a meltdown because I rejected her advances. She has actually been very helpful in mirroring the behaviours that I have done with various exes. However, I don't like seeing another human being suffer in the way that I have suffered. I met up with her on several occasions to apologise if I gave her the idea that we in a relationship - I did not. I actually was very clear and blunt about not being emotionally available. But she has a history of attaching herself to unavailable men and just spending time with her triggered her love addiction. - In any case she has gone to Italy now and I managed not to get involved in yet another damaging situation. She is of course another AA woman, albeit one I have known platonically for 17 years. Significantly, the non AA woman who I turned down has accepted it, now has a partner and has remained friends with me. That is a healthy outcome for me and for her. For the first time in my life I am walking away from trouble.

But you can look at it as a blessing and a helping hand to your recovery - to changing your ways.

It's hard to look at my recent ex as a blessing. She lives so near to me and I still think of her constantly. It's very very difficult and extremely painful - but I'm getting there. Maybe i'll see it all as a blessing in hindsight. Right now I'm dealing with practicalities. Just getting the flat ready for another inhabitant is going to be a monumental task. It's in a real mess.

You have to see, clearly, and believe, totally, that healthy partners are going to avoid you until you get healthy yourself. That is why they are healthy.

One of the biggest issues I'm going to have in future relationships is the expectations healthy women have from their partners. I've experienced non healthy expectations of emotional caretaking - I'm probably better at that than being expected to be the tall, dark, handsome, solvent, emotionally independent, cat-loving, sexual athlete, handyman, knight in shining armour that you read about on these dating apps. Women's expectations of men are off the charts. It's something i struggle with. At least with the unhealthy ones I know where I'm at...

Do you want help from us? If you do, you have to be vulnerable and engage. Having a therapist working with your too, would be good. Hearing it from two sources will make it more meaningful  - and he/she can delve deeper than we can.

Read back my posts. I've asked for help constantly. You also have to accept that I'm where I'm at in recovery too. I have engaged in this process and I have been vulnerable. I think you need to ease up on the tough love and also help me with what I'm dealing with in terms of the pathologies of these other women. You often make them sound like the reasonable parties and me the emotionally volatile disordered one. My recent ex's behaviour was absolutely off the charts. Shouting at me in the street, over-reacting to anything I said and violent. Yes, I reacted back at times, but never as volatile as her. I was always trying to put out fires. I didn't realise early on that I was dealing with such damage and I paid the price for my ignorance. Yes, being married triggered her and made her mistrust me, but there was more to it than that. Any normal woman would know and be able to see how much I loved them. They wouldn't come on holiday for a week and make love every day - then dump me a week and a half later. That devastated me. That's when I started to protect myself and when she reconnected like nothing had happened to come and see my play in the summer - that's when I started setting boundaries. That is why she moved on. She was a horrible bully who lacked empathy. She knew I loved her and didn't care. She punished me for loving her so much.

Or do you just want a place to vent and get validation of your conflicting thoughts of the day?

Let's be honest, I don't get much validation on here.I don't come on here just to vent. I come here to learn. I also don't come here to be demoralised and told that it's just me who is the problem. I am willing to look at my part in everything and have been doing so in AA for 17 years and now the same in SLAA - but there has to be an acknowledgement of the extreme behaviours of my recent ex. I am on a personality disorder website after all. I'm not doing this stuff on my own - it takes two to tango - and my ex tango's rough, I can assure you. I know the only thing I can change is me and my behaviour, I am aware of that. But I really have no further insight into the behaviour of my partners. I get the insight from reading other people's stories on here. An example of what I'm talking about is why my ex has suddenly decided to contact me. You tell me it's because she may want to be friends from a distance. But what if she is a narcissist? What if what she is actually trying to do is hurt me? I needed to know what her intentions were. Instead of which I gave her the benefit of the doubt, emailed her loving things and got silence back. A normal woman would say, 'Thank you for your email, I'm sorry you are hurting, but as I told you before I've moved on. I know it seems quick to you, but the relationship wasn't good for me.' To which I would reply "Then why did you come on holiday and why did you ask me to marry you?' I have unfinished business and unanswered questions in my head. It would help me to understand her pathology.

One last thought - you are looking and for love and you thought you had it with each of your last affair partners. It didn't work out. Feeling that loss and yearning for that love is normal. You can have that.  But it is not going to come from any of these three women (wife, affair 1, affair 2). Those relationships were all close, but they just didn't work out.

We are agreed on that.

Let's get you in shape for the next one. You have some training to do.

Amen to that, brother. Thank you. I really appreciate all the help I get. Believe me I don't mean to be difficult.

[once removed]

To be frank, I need more help to understand their stuff as well as my own.

i appreciate the point.

understanding my exs motivations was very valuable in my recovery. we went from what seemed like a pretty amicable breakup to her treating me like her worst enemy, and i couldnt make sense of it; especially in the state i was in.

On the one hand you encouraged me to let my ex go - then when I make steps to do so, you berate me for closing the door on her 'friendship' attempts.

youve heard the phrase "its not what you say, its how you say it", right?

i think that for a lot of us in recovery, in frenzied states, we tend to read too much into post breakup contact.

i spent a while trying to get my belongings back from my ex. there was one day i texted her about it, she told me shed get back to me, texted me "thanks", and seconds later, texted me "DOGGIES WENT WALK N SAY WOOFY".

i didnt respond, but do you have any idea how long i spent ruminating on what was behind that? id read about BPD pathology, post breakup contact, and how nothing is ever an accident. surely my ex knew that i knew that her new boyfriend had dogs that she loved, and she was trying to hurt me, or make me guess, or alternatively it was a complete accident intended for her boyfriend to see, which meant that she didnt care about me at all. for what its worth, i think it was an accident. my ex is not that clever.

so when it comes to understanding their stuff as well as your own:

RF, these read like light hearted attempts to...i dont know. be friends? chat? sent out of boredom? loneliness? some level of affection? its hard to say.

Hi, Hoping you are keeping and doing well.

Hello, Surprised to hear from you. Hope you are ok.

There has been no further word from my ex. I am back to feeling in turmoil.

i had a very old friend tonight send me a "wave" on facebook. we havent spoken in several months. we rarely speak. i assumed two possibilities: hes saying hey, or his cursor accidentally hovered over the damn hand icon, which is very easy to do. ill hit it back later.

she (your ex) sent a very light reach out. in return, you did the same. this is the equivalent of "hey, how are you?" "good, how are you?" "good.". there isnt really anything more to say, or any reason to say it. you, at least at this point, are reading into it that she is emotionally messing with your head.

I wrote her a detailed love email today and there has been no response. I think she just wanted to see if I was still hooked on her.

RF, i am a guy who has over pursued many girls, many times, in my life. this is a classic example of playing your hand way too hard, and its not surprising that she wouldnt respond, she wouldnt know what to say. to read into that, that she is emotionally messing with you, i think is an example of missing the big picture: her stuff, your stuff.

Can you recommend any good films series on Netflix?

Like nothing ever happened. Is this a hoo ver? What should I do?

its a "id like to talk to you, but im changing the subject, that was too heavy". lots of women have done this to me in my life.

today i might say "yes i can, anything with adam sandler", and know she was done with me 

The next day I told her that I was visiting my dad in the hospital. She then said she hopes he is ok. I said he has cancer. She then said I’m very glad you’re with him. I then said I loved her. No response.
The following day I pointed out that the Netflix question seemed strange in light of the fact we hadn’t seen each other for 4 months. I asked her not to send me anymore emails. I asked her to ring me if she wanted a relationship otherwise it feels there is no reason to speak. I told her not to contact me ever again if she has met someone else. I then blocked her on email

this is just classic over pursuit, RF. i dont think it has anything to do with her narcissism or her trying to leave you on the hook for her. its stuff (yours) that people dont know how to respond to. she sent a couple of innocuous questions. you sent a heavy love letter, confided in her (she engaged), and told her you loved her. no response says "too much", not "sucker, ive still got you, chase me."

why do i bring any of this up? youre on the detaching board. youve blocked her. the relationship isnt going anywhere. you think shes seriously mentally ill, and dangerous.

and maybe youre right. she physically abused you; serious stuff. i havent read anything youve detailed that would suggest to me that it was deserved or called for. and, its very, very hard to come back from.

but three things are clear:

1. youre not done. shes the love of your life, and also all of the above. you can say youre done, but when she contacts you, you profess your love. if she is the evil being you have described, on and off, youd go above and beyond to remove her from your life on a permanent basis. if you responded, it would be with caution, not love.

2. you have taken a similar approach in other relationships. both affair partner #1, and, on a smaller level, your wife.

3. if you want to be with a healthy partner, this (your stuff) is really important to learn from. women tend to pull away hard from over pursuit. you and i are not the only men who have ever done it and been rejected. a couple of times doesnt have to be a relationship killer or deal breaker, if we see it, get it, own it, respect it, and pull back. women tend to respect that. it may take some time, but if there any interest (of any kind), theyll reach out.

[Skip]

A normal woman would say,
'Thank you for your email, I'm sorry you are hurting, but as I told you before I've moved on. I know it seems quick to you, but the relationship wasn't good for me.'

To which I would reply
"Then why did you come on holiday and why did you ask me to marry you?'

I have unfinished business and unanswered questions in my head. It would help me to understand her pathology.

Sorting pathology from normal bad behavior from healthy behavior is hard.

Your expectation of normal here is off. Most healthy women would not re-engage an unsolicited "I love you" or an unsolicited "I love you letter" after the relationship is over.

Why?

Because she knows what your response will be... she has seen it many times. Responding will bring more responses and questions.
Because there is often no logical answer to why someone is finally done.
Because there is shame and guilt when we end it.
Because the answer will really upset you and you will JADE.

This one action, RF, is not pathology. It is typical.

There has been disorder on both sides of the relationship. You have said that. To her. To us. But that does not mean everything either of you have done is disordered. Some is and some is not.

Kudos' for not dating the SAA girl. That would have been an insanely bad idea. 

[RomanticFool]

Skip,

Do you think it’s disordered to dump somebody for three weeks. Be absolutely furious with them constantly when you reconnect and then ask them to book a holiday? After they book that holiday you tell them the next day that it’s not a good idea knowing that they just spent £1,000 that they don’t really have. You tell them in the lead up to the holiday that you don’t want to sleep with them anymore. Then you ask them to take a friend on the holiday. You then finally agree on the day of the holiday to go and ask the person you’re going with to run around getting you insoles for your shoes and to come and pick you up. You then go on holiday and sleep with them every day and ask them to have sex on the beach with you. Then one night you literally scream the holiday apartment down because they woke you up at 5am after they had a nightmare. Then at the airport on the way home you ask them if they want a drink. You then throw it at them because it cost you 5 euros and say to them ‘get it yourself next time.’ When they react you then scream at them in front of thousands of strangers who are queuing for their flight home. On the plane when it hits turbulence you get hysterical and hug the person you went on holiday with crying and sobbing that you’re going to die. Your companion reassured you all is ok and you calm down. The following week you cycle past this person  in your local park as if they do not exist. You create drama at two events and shout publicly when your companion grabs your wrist gently in an attempt to stop you storming off. A few days later you end the r/s and cut your lover off WhatsApp and block their number. Then two weeks later you reconnect as if nothing had happened and demand a free ticket to see their show. You then dump them again and don’t talk to them for months and then two weeks apart you send the following messages: ‘Thinking of you and hoping you are doing well.’ and then two weeks later: ‘Can you recommend any shows on Netflix’

You think people would say that was normal behaviour?

[RomanticFool]

Once removed,

I take on board everything you have said. However, this woman wanted to marry me. She told me on holiday that she wanted us to have.a future and then a week later she dumped me. This  was a woman who told me on a daily basis ‘I love you so much.’

I cannot accept her just saying ‘whoops that was all a mistake for a year. What I really want is somebody else or simply not him.’

At the very best it’s fickle. At worst it is disorder. To be on the receiving end of such callous, shallow behaviour makes my blood boil. When she thought I was pulling away from her (which I wasn’t) she rang me screaming down the phone and made threats to expose me on social media as an abuser. I went to see her and reassured her of my love. She turned on me in a heartbeat.

Both of the messages above, like her emails, have triggered me to despair and a massive sense of injustice. I have huge cognitive dissonance because I feel you are both justifying the behaviour of an abuser.Minimising the nature of our relationship and undervaluing what it meant to me and her at the beginning. This wasn’t a casual girlfriend who was never engaged. This was a woman who told me she loved me and begged me to promise myself to her once my divorce came through. And then once my marriage was over pretended it had nothing to do wirh her and ghosted me. Can’t you see that? Or am I going crazy here. Or is it perfectly reasonable to treat somebody like sh*t these days? You have all held me to account for my behaviour to my wife. Quite rightly so. I have accepted it and because my wife is a caring human being I wish her nothing but happiness. My ex I have nothing but hurt and disdain for at the terrible way she has treated me. Her shallowness made me suicidal. Condoning that kind of behaviour makes me feel physically sick and totally misunderstood.

[Bhs]

RF, I've read through your posts.  The rawness and hurt are apparent. Couple of observations - what choice do you have other than accepting what she is saying? I know that can be difficult to take in because at first glance "acceptance"  leaves us feeling powerless and vulnerable.  Some of that is true...but the other view is that acceptance is a virtue to learn and master - and in some ways, once you learn how to practice acceptance it brings the power back to you. You can act from a place of what she is DOING rather than a place of trying to figure her out.  It reminds of that phrase - BE HERE NOW. 

What do you gain by receiving validation that she is "disordered"?  A label does little to change the impact of her behavior on you.  The only thing that can change her impact on you is YOUR mindset.  I've been through a couple of rough relationships and I firmly believe that in a couple of instances the ex had real emotional issues...BUT...the only solution is to look within myself - learn to spot issues earlier - learn to stop trying to change someone else when the only person I can change is myself - and finally - learn to disengage from situations and people that HURT. 

I get the sense that you are well schooled in the internet language of personality disorders - devaluation - discard - narcissistic - cognitive dissonance. Thing is - we can all exhibit some of these qualities some of the time. Is it a breakup or a discard? Is it devaluation or a change of heart? These are subjective terms. What do you get by painting a picture of her as disordered while at the same time not wanting to let go? Most of us can understand what is to be hurt but not yet detached...that takes time.  What is more difficult is cycling back and forth between making someone out to be disturbed while also not exactly wanting to let go. 

I gave this advice to a friend of mine in a similar situation...if you want to make it work that's a choice you are entitled to make but stop labeling him as a narcissist and learn to deal with his behaviors that hurt you. If you aren't willing to live with him the way he is then stop staying in contact with him. If you keep playing the middle you may have to consider whether you like the pain - the intensity - the fix. I suggested she get honest real quickly about what she wanted...because the need to prove to him and to others that he was disordered would only undercut any attempts to repair the situation. 

It also raises the question...if she's that bad why tell her to call if she wanted a relationship?  It's one thing to say - I'm hurt, I don't understand...it's a mixed bag...I need to understand so I don't repeat this or if I think there is something I can do.  But it seems that rather than examine how you got here you are searching for validation that she was disordered.  Why does it matter?  Will that help you resolve this?  I would suggest that you spend some time understanding your mixed feelings...and coming to terms with them.

Disordered or not the behavior doesn't work for you.  Labels may be helpful to a therapist trying to formulate a treatment plan but in general seeking validation that someone else is disordered does little for us personally.  It can be a blame shifting technique - I'm not bad - it's her OR a way to make logical sense of what is an emotional experience.  But emotional experiences are not always logical.  There is no explanation. We can enjoy many things that are "bad"...but to be healthy we have to learn to break the habit. I encourage you to reflect on the fact that this is an emotional journey - you can't logic your way through it by trying a business strategy: (1) identify the problem; (2) label it; (3) understand its dysfunction; (4) fix the dysfunction.  You can't diagnose her and you can't fix her.  Those are things she needs to do IF she wants to.  Sometimes I realize that I fall into the mindset of thinking my problems can be solved if someone else changes...so I spend my time trying to do a diagnostic on that person so I can exhort them to change...kind of like - "see, everyone else thinks you are the problem too".  I get to a point of thinking everything would be okay if only THEY changed.  If only THEY understood my feelings...if only THEY were more empathetic. But in all likelihood if THEY wanted to change or were open to discussion and resolution - we wouldn't be on this board. That's not an empowering strategy for me to take...and I had to understand why I took that strategy and why I gave up my power.

Alternatively, labeling is a way to keep hope alive that if you present this information they will be able to "see" the behavior is "disordered" and will want to change. Nope...ain't gonna happen. The only way she will change is if she wants it from within.  I smoke.  You know how many folks point out that "disorder" to me?  Doesn't matter...I'll quit when and if I want to.  Same thing with behavior.  If she wants to be a different person she will do the work...if she doesn't and you can't live with the behavior - time to try to do the work of detaching.  You can't fix her - labeling her does nothing to soothe your pain - validating she is disordered doesn't help you.  The only thing that will help you is to get clear on what you want - define how you want to behave and how you want to treat others,  and start moving forward in a direction that is consistent with your values.

Also - to help clarify my point, I would gently suggest that others could label or characterize multiple affairs as disordered...but does that mean it is true?  You seem to have explanations for yourself that you are able to live with and perhaps she has those too in terms of her behavior towards you. These labels are subjective.  If I understand, she was a GF to you when you were married - from the get go this was bound to be a fraught situation as you weren't really available to her.  I don't think anyone is condoning her behavior - rather the point is that you can't change her behavior and that labeling her behavior leaves the door open to labeling your own. I think you are getting caught in the need for vindication and it hurts you if you don't feel you get it.  But ask yourself - is support more helpful or vindication?  People are trying to help you move through it by leaving this part behind - the part that seeks vindication - that part that wants to pin it on a disorder or being victimized.  Those are disempowering.  Sometimes its important to look at why we want to give up our power.

You ask whether it's disordered to dump someone and then ask them to book a holiday...but in that same vein - is it disordered for you to book the holiday?  You have choices too...and point being - the label doesn't help as it can easily be turned around. I understand your anger but perhaps consider whether you are focusing that anger on her rather than being angry with yourself.  When you acknowledge you are angry and disappointed in yourself for your choices you can work on that. Focus on YOUR choices because the only person you can change is YOU.  If you can use your anger to disengage from her that may be productive in the short term, but after that what does focusing on the injustice do to help you?  You can have a more "just" relationship in the future - but that requires letting go of this one.  I hope you take these comments the way they are intended...these were things I learned on my  emotional journey...it's tough - but at the end of the road I think I feel clearer than every on who I am and what I am willing to accept - and when you get there you realize you haven't lost your power...you just gave it away for a little bit.  Peace my friend.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Bhs,

I’ll reply more fully to your message later but the basic notion of working on myself is of course the tenet of the various 12 step fellowships I am a member of and that work is ongoing. I get a lot of advice on here about working on myself but I’ve always done that. I’ve been in AA for 17 years and SLAA for over 6 Months now. The area that I have struggled in specifically is love relationships with women. All other areas of my life are functional and healthy.

The reason my last two relationships were so significant in my life is the nature of the women I’ve been involved with. My first affair partner is the first woman I’ve encountered who visited silent treatment upon me during a relationship. I never understood it and found it confusing and painful from somebody I love. She always told me it was because I was aggressive over WhatsApp and texting while speaking to her but in fact I was no more aggressive than she had been to me. She was just passive aggressive and I would say what I thought. I
Put that dynamic down to the fact that she was married and not available. When we continued the affair and I was then married I saw that the behaviour in her continued to be passive aggressive but I was more familiar with it and didn’t respond in the same way until she started drinking again and became nasty towards me.

My most recent ex was a whole new experience for me. She started off returning my love and telling me I was the man she had been searching for her whole life. I trusted her and told my wife immediately that I had met someone. I saw some red flags in her behaviour which I eventually ignored and even turned green. Then when she physically attacked me I was in turmoil. I didn’t understand what I’d done or why she was so angry. Then she started turning on me and being angry all the time. I didn’t understand what was happening. I loved her and in my head all I was doing was standing up for myself and being the strong man she said she loved. Suddenly the strong man narrative became an exploitative abuser narrative who was only after her for sex. I was deeply hurt as I thought we loved each other. She gaslighted me all the way and said I was the problem and that her behaviour was self protection. But you don’t go on holiday with someone and make love every day if you’re protecting yourself. I think she may have had her eye on someone else from May onwards and all her pulling away and stating she had other options was part of that. For my part I need to understand what I was dealing with. Everybody saying that her behaviour was normal and understandable does not help at all. Just makes me think that I don’t ever want a relationship again if that’s an acceptable way for women to behave and I’m the problem and have to adjust my behaviour. I was married but always told her we would be together. When my marriage was over my ex behaved as if it had nothing whatsoever to do with her when in fact she had begged me on a daily basis to be with her. That is callous and hurtful. I can’t move on unless I understand the nature of what I was dealing with. Telling me to work on myself is missing the point. I wasn’t doing this r/s on my own. I was in it with a woman who said she loved me and then gaslighted and attacked me. That has left a scar and I need to deal with that trauma.

[Bhs]

For my part I need to understand what I was dealing with

RF...maybe it's more constructive to understand why you chose to deal with her.  Having a basic understanding of human behavior is instructive in that it provides a framework for sorting and organizing things that happen to us but at the end of the day there was something in you that prompted you to continue even after physical abuse and game playing.  The idea that we have found someone who loves us in a passionate and deep way can be seductive...and it can be hard to trade that phantasy for the reality of the behavior in front of us.

Everybody saying that her behaviour was normal and understandable does not help at all. Just makes me think that I don’t ever want a relationship again if that’s an acceptable way for women to behave and I’m the problem and have to adjust my behaviour.

I don't think people are saying her behavior was normal - perhaps they have given you explanations of what could have caused her behavWith that said, normal is a very subjective term.  In the end you get to determine what behaviors you will accept in a romantic partner which brings us back to a central question...why did you put up with so much?

As my T told me about my relationship...many people would have walked long ago...why is acknowledging that some people are "bad" or unable to acknowledge your feelings like walking off a cliff for you? What do you get from hanging on? As he said...ordered people can act disordered and disordered people can act ordered...that isn't the point - the point is why do you give people so much latitude to hurt you?  Why is it so difficult to walk away?  I really had to think about that and in truth I'm still working on that.  My T almost universally refuses to discuss the men I have relationships with...he can validate my hurt but he always brings it back to me as in "you made the decision to stay...you put up with the behavior...you continued to overlook obvious indications this person couldn't sustain a loving connection".  When I'm in his office I'm there to work on my part of the issue which is refusing to leave - wishing things were different.  Our goal in therapy is to help me understand the nature of what I AM dealing with internally...once I figure that out my chance of having this happen again is much less likely.  Look...it's tough having the light shining back on you...and yes, many of the behaviors you note would be hurtful to anyone...but not anyone would stay - many would just walk away.

I think people are asking you to look at your behaviors in terms of engaging with women when you aren't really available...and being legally married - even if separated or in an open relationship - is not truly available.  Many people would say that's not acceptable behavior - or it is at least callous behavior bound to create drama and tension. I say this with love but starting a relationship while being married is not healthy - to your wife - to your lover - and ultimately to yourself.  Why stay married?  What is it that keeps you tethered to relationships that don't nourish you?

No one is in a r/s on their own...but the resolution of the r/s may be up to you individually.  If you pin your healing on her you are again giving up your power.  I say this again...you keep looking for validation that her behavior was not acceptable but that is your decision to make...the validation of others isn't necessary to arrive at the conclusion that what she did wasn't acceptable.  We all have different boundaries but I think one issue seems clear...your boundaries didn't protect you and that's why people are calling on you to look inward.  Telling you to work on yourself is NOT missing the point.  You can't change her. You have to get closure on your own...and maybe that isn't "just", maybe it's "unfair" but IT IS WHAT IT IS. You made decisions to stay in the relationship after what you described as violence and gaslighting.  When I hear people say - telling me to look at myself is missing the point...I get a weird feeling.  You were not a victim of a violent crime...you chose to stay and take it further.  Why?  I did that myself - I rationalized things in the moment but at the end of the day I wasn't forced to stay - I chose to stay. I have to figure out what I got that was so important it made me stay. 

Her behavior may be callous and  hurtful - but starting a r/s while married could be construed the same way.  Isn't it better to be in or out - available or not? I just get the sense that there is some self-protection mechanism at work here...you didn't go into this giving it a real chance and from what I read you are still married so why describe this as your marriage is over?  It's over when you are divorced and living on your own. I say this to try and point you towards seeing what is REALLY happening versus how you want to interpret it.

Some people go on holiday and break up afterwards...people do all sorts of callous and destructive things. That's the world we live in.  Isn't part of dealing with trauma figuring out how you keep yourself safe in the future - which means understand why you allowed yourself to be traumatized.  Maybe you were dealing with a person who didn't care enough to see it through - maybe she is disordered - but how does knowing that allow you to move on?  The nature of what you are dealing with is someone who didn't bring to the table what you needed and seems unable to come back to the table with any intent of changing.  We have this idea that understanding brings closure.  Can you understand Hitler? Can you understand the Sandy Hook shooter?  These are people who do terrible things...does it matter if they have a personality disorder?  I don't think so...what matters most is how can we protect ourselves from these people.  So while I appreciate your deep hurt I urge you (based on my own experience) to you figure out why you stayed with her...what did she give you outside of gaslighting and attacks and deep hurt that was compelling enough for you to stay?  Additionally, when I hear someone say "you are the person I have been searching for my whole life"...I kinda figure they are dealing with their phantasy of me...not the real me.  These are the flags we need to look for...these are the points where we get caught in the phantasy relationships as much as the partner.  We all know inside that no one is the person we've been searching for our whole life because that means we aren't really dealing with the "whole" person. There's something in those of us who keep engaging in these relationships that is as ungrounded in reality as our partners.  Difference is we can learn and change in the future if we work on ourselves.  I hope that helps to explain why you keep hearing that.  Everyone here understands the sense of confusion...but the resolution lies within.

[formflier]

I get a lot of advice on here about working on myself but I’ve always done that. 

How do you describe the amount of advice you get here compared the advice you choose to follow?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

Bhs,

I think people are asking you to look at your behaviors in terms of engaging with women when you aren't really available...and being legally married - even if separated or in an open relationship - is not truly available.  Many people would say that's not acceptable behavior - or it is at least callous behavior bound to create drama and tension. I say this with love but starting a relationship while being married is not healthy - to your wife - to your lover - and ultimately to yourself.  Why stay married?  What is it that keeps you tethered to relationships that don't nourish you?

Can I just put this to bed. My marriage is over. My wife is moving out. She has a new partner. We will get divorced in due course. Neither of us is hanging onto the r/s it's simply a question of money. It costs £400 minimum to pay for a divorce and neither one of us can afford it at the moment. But we will divorce and due to the advice I am getting on here I will most likely do it next year once my tax is paid and I have a room-mate to help with the bills. We are both fairly unconventional people and so while it may seem like there is still a r/s because we are not officially divorced, there is no r/s except friendship. I agree that the damage was done having an affair. The irony is that my wife found somebody very quickly. Had I known that was going to happen I'd have left my marriage when I first met my ex. I don't know about callous but it was certainly cowardly and dishonest. Cheating is not what I want to do in the future. I am clear of any commitments now and am on my own.

As my T told me about my relationship...many people would have walked long ago...why is acknowledging that some people are "bad" or unable to acknowledge your feelings like walking off a cliff for you? What do you get from hanging on? As he said...ordered people can act disordered and disordered people can act ordered...that isn't the point - the point is why do you give people so much latitude to hurt you?  Why is it so difficult to walk away?  I really had to think about that and in truth I'm still working on that.  My T almost universally refuses to discuss the men I have relationships with...he can validate my hurt but he always brings it back to me as in "you made the decision to stay...you put up with the behavior...you continued to overlook obvious indications this person couldn't sustain a loving connection".  When I'm in his office I'm there to work on my part of the issue which is refusing to leave - wishing things were different.  Our goal in therapy is to help me understand the nature of what I AM dealing with internally...once I figure that out my chance of having this happen again is much less likely.  Look...it's tough having the light shining back on you...and yes, many of the behaviors you note would be hurtful to anyone...but not anyone would stay - many would just walk away.

I stayed because I loved her. I still love her. I persevered because I think she is an intelligent woman and when she started blaming me for everything I believed her. I was willing to work on our dynamic if she met me halfway. She wasn't interested in meeting me halfway, she just wanted to blame me. We had these crazy arguments about who was at fault for the toxicity of the r/s after she had physically attacked me. I told her that I was reacting to what she was doing to me, I wasn't causing the toxicity. She said the same. I told her constantly that I understood me being married was very difficult for her. I apologised constantly and for most of the time it pacified her. However, when she realised that I wasn't taking the whole blame for her behaviour she couldn't cope. I believe that she found it intolerable that she had behaved violently towards me and therefore it must be my fault. I could have pacified her by taking the blame, I thought about doing that, but I now believe that had I done so she would have kept hitting me. I had to set a boundary. She didn't like my boundaries and turned on me. Part of the problem was I wouldn't go round there on days when she was in a bad mood with me. At one point she said 'we don't see each other.' I can see my part in the breakdown of the r/s, I was actually avoiding her hoping she would miss me, as she had done many times. Not game playing but genuinely hoping that by giving her space she would calm down and realise she loved me - it never happened. Then she ended the r/s and I went to suicidal ideation. I always knew I was in trouble with this r/s because of my feelings for her. I tried to pull away a few times but I was hooked on her. Then she came on holiday with me and slept with me every day and promptly dumped me again when we got home. I knew I should have walked away but I couldn't. I'm in tears as I write this - the pain of losing her is so intolerable.

[RomanticFool]

How do you describe the amount of advice you get here compared the advice you choose to follow?

I have followed much of the advice I've had on here. Particularly the advice not to get into another r/s.

[formflier]

I have followed much of the advice I've had on here. Particularly the advice not to get into another r/s.

What advice have you chosen not to follow?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

I haven't chosen not to follow anything. I take on board what people say on here as much as I can. When i've been upset I've reacted to my ex by sending emails but that's about it. I set a boundary a week ago and asked her not to email me. I then blocked her on email. Not sure anybody gave me the advice to do that but it felt like the right thing to do in order to heal.

[Skip]

What advice have you chosen not to follow?

Can you give this a little more thought... I don't think formflier was talking about the last two threads, but rather your 2 years here.

[RomanticFool]

It’s a moot point now. My ex moved on quickly - as is commensurate with narcissism. I have resisted her attempts at hoo vering me up. As I’ve said before, I don’t think I would be on these boards had I got involved with healthy people.

I read on here that somebody was bored in their new r/s because they miss the intensity of their BPD relationship. This is the area that I want to work on in the future. When I eventually do find someone who loves me, not doing something stupid because I crave the trauma bond of my ex. I’m getting to the point now where analysing the past just feels like picking at a scab. The advice I followed on here was actually to set boundaries which I did and it ended up killing the r/s. It was too late by the time she had emailed me. Not replying was not an option at that point. Also, I was never going to be friends with someone who treated me so badly. Whatever I did to her the fact is she was abusive. We are better off without each other in our lives. I will miss her until the day I die but nobody has ever behaved so appallingly towards me and I need to meet somebody who is nicer to me. As you repeatedly told me: let her go, sometimes relationships just end. So I did let her go. Now I’m miserable and lonely - but at least I’m not anxious every day and wondering what fresh hell I am going to endure at the end of her tongue. I believe her behaviour is consistent with narcissism. Otherwise she wouldn’t have dumped me twice and moved on like I was nothing. I really don’t care to hear anymore justification or explanation of her behaviour. I want to move forward and heal and meet somebody with a heart and empathy.

[Skip]

It’s a moot point now.

Is self-awareness ever moot?

You say that if she wanted you back, you would go. Bhs asked, how would you be different if you did go back? If you loved her so much and the divorce was so important, why didn't you do it? This is a really critical question.

You say you will love her to the day you die. In the same breath, you say she is an evil monster. What does love mean to you?  What does it mean believe these two things can co-exist? Is it possible you don't really think she is a monster at all, but you need to paint her black to deal with her ending the relationship? Is it possible that evil is not how she treated you - it's that she ended the relationship.

You often say that one reason for not getting the divorce was because AA girl wasn't doing what you wanted her to do... you blamed not getting a divorce on her. Why did you feel that she had to earn the divorce?

I suggested that when you think about relationships, it is largely about what the other person can do for you - you are often oblivious to what they are going through as you press relentlessly for getting you needs met. This was true in all three relationships.  If you don't fully grasp this, it will cause you grief again in your next relationship. This is not excusing anyone else's behavior - everyone contributes to a relationship failure -  it is saying that you do this thing and if you continue to do it in relationships it will not serve you well.

[RomanticFool]

Is self-awareness ever moot?

It's not going to bring her back. All it's made me better at is pushing women away. I've pushed two away since this r/s - now I must be proud of my avoidant side it seems.

You say that if she wanted you back, you would go. Bhs asked, how would you be different if you did go back? If you loved her so much and the divorce was so important, why didn't you do it? This is a really critical question.

Nothing would be different which is why it's not going to happen. In order for her to want me back she would have to undergo a radical change of perspective. At the moment she blames me for everything and sees me as abusive and somebody to be discarded as if he was trash - and then checked up on from time to time to see if he is still engaged.

I never said the divorce was so important. I said it was unimportant. As I've said many time, the reason I didn't do it is threefold: 1) I was conflicted in a sense of duty to my wife 2) I knew there was something wrong with the dynamic between my ex and I and wanted to give it time 3) I was a coward. Feared losing everything if I jumped. Which has happened anyway.

You say you will love her to the day you die. In the same breath, you say she is an evil monster. What does love mean to you?  What does it mean believe these two things can co-exist? Is it possible you don't really think she is a monster at all, but you need to paint her black to deal with her ending the relationship? Is it possible that evil is not how she treated you - it's that she ended the relationship.

What's with the emotive language? You know I don't see her as an evil monster. I think she is possibly a narcissist ie severely impaired empathy where I am concerned. It was interesting that when she replied to my email two weeks ago when i told her I was with my dad in hospital she never asked how I am doing. That is typical of the woman. I could give you a thousand examples of her impaired empathy. I am also aware that I did not behave well towards her because she was so busy battering me emotionally I lashed out in order to protect myself. I know she felt she was doing the same thing. One of the last times we met she immediately accused me of not looking happy to see her. I told her I was ecstatic at seeing her. She didn't listen and said, why don't we just go for a quick walk and you can go home. I said 'because we have arranged to go for a meal and I've really been looking forward to seeing you.' Then she said 'There's no point.' So I got upset and said 'Fine I'll take you home then.' She said, "I'm going to protect myself from now on.' I said, 'Protect yourself from what? I love you and you're pushing me away.' She refused to answer anything else I said and stormed out of the car. Under those circumstances it's soo bloody hard to show love. I was so in love with this woman - even after she dumped me for three weeks and shouted at me in the park I said to her, " why do you hurt me? You know I'd do anything for you.' She didn't reply. I believe she was pushing me away in the summer because she had already moved on in her head. She simply wanted a holiday which is why she came to Greece.

To me love is what we had in the beginning: Love, affection, looking out for each other, excitement at seeing each other, accompanying her to the hospital. Putting her needs before my own. Spending time with her, reading to her, doing things for her ( I built her a wardrobe - she was never happier), cooking her dinner, playing piano for her, going for walks, holidays, films, theatre, being there for her, being her best friend, soothing her - all the things I did at the beginning - until she turned on me.

You often say that one reason for not getting the divorce was because AA girl wasn't doing what you wanted her to do... you blamed not getting a divorce on her. Why did you feel that she had to earn the divorce?

That is hogwash. I never blamed her for not getting a divorce. I wanted to see how things went with her and then when they started going bad I lost courage. I didn't feel she had to earn the divorce - I was terrified of blowing my life up for a woman who was going to dump me in the end. I was frightened of exactly what has happened - but I didn't see that my marriage was over anyway. I was fearful of losing everything.

I suggested that when you think about relationships, it is largely about what the other person can do for you - you are often oblivious to what they are going through as you press relentlessly for getting you needs met. This was true in all three relationships.  If you don't fully grasp this, it will cause you grief again in your next relationship. This is not excusing anyone else's behavior - everyone contributes to a relationship failure -  it is saying that you do this thing and if you continue to do it in relationships it will not serve you well.

This is an area that was difficult with my ex. I did try to be empathetic towards her and understand what she was going through in early recovery but the fact I was having an affair and had to cover my tracks meant I couldn't be there for my ex. This is my biggest regret and I can see this clearly now. My ex warned me time and again that if I stayed in my marriage the r/s would become toxic. I constantly reassured her that we would end up together and just to give me time. When we went on holiday I had hope that the r/s was going to be alright. I had planned to tell my wife when I got back that I wanted to be with my ex. Then almost immediately we got home things started to go wrong with my ex and she distanced herself from me. When her daughter didn't want me in the house I reacted badly. I look back and think part of me was sabotaging it because the pain was so terrible. I saw everything that happened as her distancing herself from me and making hoops that I could never jump through. My reactions to these times were not good - but I felt she had behaved so badly towards me anyway that we were doomed. When I reacted negatively to her daughter declaring she didn't want me in the house, my ex said, I want you to say, "Don't worry darling everything will be ok.' So I repeated those exact words to her and said it will be ok but you can't allow your 17 year old daughter to interfere in your relationships. At the time I felt she was being parented by her daughter. It was a battle I knew I was never going to win. She was so happy at the beginning because her daughter approved of me. However, her daughter's boyfriend was a drug-addled kid who reported back to her daughter every argument my ex and I had when he was asleep in her bed after her daughter had left for school. So between her daughter, the boyfriend, their co-dependent relationships (my ex was so unboundaried around the boyfriend it was almost as if she fancied him herself - I was very uncomfortable with this and tried to gently suggest she left the two lovebirds alone) and my reaction - the relationship imploded. It wasn't any one thing. It was a combination of several factors. The worst thing I ever did in terms of the r/s was argue in front of her daughter. However, my ex had already physically attacked me in front of her months earlier and I apologised to her daughter on her mother's behalf. I knew at the time that was probably the kiss of death to the r/s. So sure, I had my part to play in the breakdown of the r/s but it was a complex situation and I didn't have the skills to negotiate it properly. I thought I did pretty well to exist in the mad house for as long as I did given the circumstances.

I pushed to get my needs met because we had both been meeting each other’s needs and then she started to pull away. I was scared of losing her and it made me push harder. I’ve recently been on the receiving end with a woman who wouldn’t take no for an answer - I know it doesn’t work in getting ones needs met, but I was frightened I would lose my ex. I was correct in that fear. She was pulling away from me.

[formflier]

Perhaps the most important question I've ever seen in any of your threads.

Is self-awareness ever moot?

Your response below.

It's not going to bring her back. All it's made me better at is pushing women away. I've pushed two away since this r/s - now I must be proud of my avoidant side it seems.
 

A further example below of lack of self awareness on Romantic Fool's part.

 In order for her to want me back she would have to undergo a radical change of perspective.  

Romantic Fool

Can you slow down for a bit?  Maybe grab your favorite beverage and think about the question.

Is self awareness ever moot?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

A further example below of lack of self awareness on Romantic Fool's part.

Is self awareness ever moot?

Self awareness is not going to bring my ex back. I have pushed two women away because I am not healed. In terms of SLAA that is sticking to my sobriety - something which members take great pride in. I don't accept that this is lack of awareness. It is probably cynicism. I have to do all this work on myself and I still don't get back the woman I love. That's my point.

I had enough self awareness not to chase her a second time. Why? Because she was escalating the conflict and started accusing me of abuse when I gently grabbed her arm to stop her stomping off. She wanted to get a reaction from me. I would not allow the r/s to escalate further into abuse and kept away from her when she wanted me to chase. When she reconnected after two weeks of silent treatment she said 'You didn't try hard enough to win me back.' In my language that is manipulation and control.

[Skip]

Self awareness is not going to bring my ex back.

That is not the point of self-awareness or emotional intelligence or understanding human nature.

The point is that when

we don't realize how we are perceived by others or what normal reactions in others (human nature) are and what are emotionally intelligent ways to act and think...

... we have relationship problems and we suffer.

This is where you are.

You wife is moving out. Both your affairs have run their course. These relationships are over. You can jump back in and suffer some more (and other will suffer), but they are done.

It's good that you haven't jumped into another bed as a way to heal - you have a history of that - but there is a lot more to getting on track to be a healthy romantic partner. Besides, when we are broken hearten it is hard to immediately jump into bed with someone else - read other members cases that talk about this. I'd put this in the class of "before you can make anything better, you have to stop making it worse". In other words, this is not the real work - its just not doing something self defeating.

The reason the question is being asked is because you words consistency say that it was the dysfunction of others that makes your relationships fail  - yeah you do some bad things but they are justified.

When people talk about doing the work - this is the work.

When people talk about denial (in mental health) - this is what they are in denial about.

If nothing else, please make a note that this is a phase you need to go through to get on a healthy track and it takes months.

FF question was about what advice did you not take?

When your first affair ended, you go this same talk. Clean up your side of the street because if you don't you will be back here again and in greater pain.

[formflier]

The reason the question is being asked is because you words consistency say that it was the dysfunction of others that makes your relationships fail  - yeah you do some bad things but they are justified.
 

Good summation.

The pattern I remember goes like this.

RF:  I did X because my affair partner did Y.  (long explanation about how bad Y is and why partner did Y)    Most of the time I agreed with the analysis about affair partner and whatever they did.

Someone posting advice:  "You know RF, it's not healthy to do X"

RF:  "I only did X because of affair partner.  I've never done X before etc etc etc.  "

We're on your side RF. 

I hope you are able to slow down and focus on "your side of the street".

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

I went to an industry party last night. The room was full of men and women wanting to spend time with me, people who find me an agreeable, interesting and loving person to be around. I know how I am perceived by 99% of people on the planet. Even my soon to be ex wife enjoys spending time with me and says I'm a good person. Are you really going to say that my character should be defined by two highly damaged women, one of whom I had a largely texting relationship with, or people who know me well and spend time with me?

The frustration with my recent ex is that she saw the good side of me to begin with. I take responsibility for not leaving the marriage and that adding to her frustration. I take responsibility for my reactions to her emotional instability and fear of abandonment, However, what I don't take responsibility for is her violence and aggression towards me and total lack of empathy. Her behaviour has been utterly appalling and whatever I did in response to her, I can tell you that I did not deserve to be treated with such contempt or lack of care. That is on her and I will never take responsibility for the fact that she physically attacked me or shouted at me in the street.

I'm happy to look at my side of the equation. I know that I was volatile and unable to access my wise mind when under fire from her. I know that I should never have had a relationship with someone only one month sober and in many respects I got what was predictable. She talked a good game about how to behave in relationships, the spiritual aspects of life and what a good dynamic was between us, however, she could not put this into practise and rounded on me many times even in the early stages for trivial things (like spilling tea on the carpet and making me hire a carpet cleaner at great expense). I don't know any man that would have tolerated that behaviour in the way that I did. My previous ex was passive aggressive and would disappear whenever I said something she didn't like. She recently cut me off WhatsApp at a time I was feeling very bleak. I listened to her stuff for hours and hours during our r/s and I have always found her to have traits of BPD even though she maintains that she doesn't. These two women were damaged. I own my part in getting involved with them and have self awareness around my own behaviour. I need to stop reacting to aggression with aggression and try to remain calm. That aside, I don't think I should allow two damaged women to define who I am as a person.

That said, I am digging into my own behaviour on these boards. I have insight into my behaviour and want to become a calmer, wiser person.




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