Marriage is over, my wife is moving out in Feb- why does that not fix my affair?

[RomanticFool]

I always told her we would end up together and we would have. This is actually kind of irrelevant for two reasons. My marriage is over and my wife is moving out. If I got back with my ex and she wanted to marry me I'd divorce my wife immediately. The reason we are not going ahead with a divorce is because of finances at present. You can get a very cheap internet divorce but as I've said to you numerous times this is no barrier to having a relationship with anyone because my marriage is over. I have had two women after me recently and neither cared that I hadn't divorced. So long as I'm no longer in a relationship and could be exclusive divorce doesn't matter. Perhaps in your world it does but I assure you it is not a factor. The issue with my ex wasn't the marriage per se but the fact I was still in the r/s. If I had separated from my wife back then and spent every night at her house she wouldn't have cared. Had she wanted to get married and we had a healthy relationship then I'd have made divorce a priority. I know you don't believe me but I assure you women care about whether you're faithful not when the divorce comes through. I am effectively single. My wife spends many nights out with her new boyfriend. He doesn't care that she's not divorced.

You may have made progress is your reaction to her reactions (the cycle of conflict) - you did that in the last affair - but is that enough?

Sometimes a relationship -  just gets sucked dry - doesn't mean the base attraction is gone. I can't think of a single ex of mine that I still don't find attractive, interesting, and have a connection to. I also can't think of a single ex that I would go back to. The relationships ran their course and whether it was 1 year or 10, they ran their course. Can you see  this? Can you feel this?

My frustration is that I don't think the r/s had a chance to get sucked dry. She has never seen the single version of me. I think the more likely scenario is that I was a passing ship in her world rather than a serious contender for life partner. Had she not been damaged and able to commit to one person, that love would not wear off in the relatively short space of time that it did. The issue was her emotional volatility and my reaction to it and her mistrust due to the fact I was still in the r/s with my wife. Had she actually loved me she would have wanted to find out where we could go now that I'm out of my marriage. She doesn't love me is the real issue as I see it. That's what I feel deep down and I'm getting acceptance over. Had she wanted to reconnect she'd have kept the communication going. She hasn't. That tells me everything I need to know.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

My marriage is over and my wife is moving out.

Aren't these the exact words you used a year ago.

My marriage is over, my wife is moving out, we are getting divorced.

Hint: they are.

but as I've said to you numerous times this is no barrier to having a relationship with anyone because my marriage is over. ..//.. Perhaps in your world it does but I assure you it is not a factor.

Then why was this such a contentious issue for you and AA girl? She lives in your area. She travels in your circles (AA). The marriage, moving your wife back into the house, and vacationing with your wife was hugely damaging.

RM, face the reality. There are plenty of people on Ashley Madison.com but that doesn't mean being married and living with your wife if not a huge issue for a lot of women. Not all.

At the bottom top of the pyramid of available women is the Ashley Madison crew.

At the bottom of that pyramid is women who won't date a man less than a year past divorce and who hasn't been in at least on relationship since. These are the most street wise and principled women (and men).

There are several middle layers in that pyramid.

It might help you to accept this reality on two fronts. To broaden the pool of eligible women and to gain access to more principled women.

One thing you struggle with is wanting someone from the bottom of the pyramid with the craziness of the top of the pyramid.

Your own experience should tell you that a merging of  the top and bottom is not likely and that you don't do well with the top or bottom of the pyramid. That is a problem.

Also, you hate to be rejected by women, but when they are rejecting you, that is when they are most appealing to you.

My frustration is that I don't think the r/s had a chance to get sucked dry. She has never seen the single version of me.

She was sucked dry. If I read your recent past posts where you were suicidal, I'd say you were sucked dry too. But it really only matters if 1 person in the couple feels sucked dry. Both your affair partners and wife reached that point.

Do you see your wife coming back if you say the right words? Do you see affair partner #1 coming back with the right words?

We all have relationships that went dry on us. That hurts. We have this pain (evolutionary) so that we re-look our approach to relationships.

[RomanticFool]

Do you see your wife coming back if you say the right words? Do you see affair partner #1 coming back with the right words?

No and no. My question is, why has my recent ex contacted me?

Aren't these the exact words you used a year ago.

Yes and she is moving out in February. She has a new r/s. My marriage is over.

Then why was this such a contentious issue for you and AA girl? She lives in your area. She travels in your circles (AA).

Me being married meant that I had to come home. Now that the marriage is over I am free. Whether we get divorced now or in two years time, the marriage is still over. My wife is no longer with me in a r/s. That's what's different now. My ex told me that had I stuck to my word in the early stages of the r/s and told my wife that our marriage was over she never would have had trust issues. Those are her words not mine. Being married is different to being separated. We are now separated on the way to getting divorced. That's my point. Had I been separated when I met my ex it would not have been an issue that we hadn't filed for divorce.

At the bottom of that pyramid is women who won't date a man less than a year past divorce and who has been in at least on relationship since. These are the most street wise and principled men and women.

Well I think every woman is different and I agree that principles are important. I think if I tell a woman in February that I am separated and my wife has a new partner, nobody is going to see that as a block to a r/s.  I may be wrong but the crucial factor here is that my wife is in a r/s herself. Had that been the situation when I met my ex, the marriage would never have been an issue - unless she wanted to marry me. I would have started divorce proceedings had that situation ever arisen. What a disaster that would have been by the way!

It might help you to accept this reality on two fronts. To broaden the pool of eligible women and to gain access to more principled women.

One thing you struggle with is wanting the someone from the bottom of the pyramid with the craziness of the top of the pyramid.

You own experience should tell you that a merging of  the top and bottom is not likely and that you don't do well with the top or bottom of the pyramid.

I've never heard the pyramid analogy before but I take your point. I don't doubt your point about meeting more principled women. I have come to that conclusion myself. I do think the readiness of my ex to have an affair with me is an indication as to character red flags. I was not the first married man she has involved herself with. Not that I'm judging her but I would hope to do things differently in future.

Let's face it. You hate to be rejected by women, but that is when they are most appealing to you (when they are rejecting you)

Yes indeed. One of the most painful things about the r/s with my ex was I know I pushed her away when she threatened to tell my wife and made threats to expose me on social media. I don't think she ever would have done it but I didn't know that at the time. I had a massive part to play in triggering her insecurities and yes it was around not being available to see her and shilly-shallying around leaving my wife. If I stuck to my guns and gone through with the marriage break up at the beginning life may have been easier. However, I may have to consider that part of the reason my ex was so pursuant of me at the beginning is also because I wasn't free. I wish I had been free to pursue my ex as I may never have seen the dark side of her in quite the way I did. However, given her track record, I doubt we'd have stayed together whatever happened. She was very volatile, combative and difficult from the start. Had I seen more of her it may have been worse quicker. Who knows?

We all have relationships that went dry on us.

The hardest part of all this is accepting it's over. Now that I'm free to see her and I could stay over at her place, I feel intense frustration that she no longer wants me. I was always looking forward to the time that we could be together. She was becoming slowly disillusioned and beginning the distancing/discard cycle. I've never known pain as intense as this. I'd love to be able to get her back just to see if I could make it work.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear RF-

Please know I’m not being flippant with these questions, but I did see so many red flags at the beginning, middle and end of your relationship with AA girl.  Red flags that YOU showed me through your relating of things that had occurred.  I had no way to see these things for myself.  

So may I ask...

Did AA girl physically assault you (twice as I recall) because you were still cohabiting with your wife?  Was the fight about that?

Did AA girl lack empathy for you in every instance (as you have related) because you were still cohabiting with your wife?

Was every argument, every disagreement, every push/pull behavior triggered by the fact you were still cohabiting with your wife?

Did AA girl bring up the subject of your wife and beg that you divorce so you could be with her during the entirety of the relationship?

Will the fact that you are no longer cohabiting with your wife, or even when you divorce your wife CHANGE the personality of the AA girl?

Please think about these questions.  Please think about the real answers.  Not what you WISH the answers to be.  People are who they are...  unless they’re working to alter their attitudes and behaviors.

You’re in process of learning who you are through your SLAA program and you’re about to begin therapy.  What is SHE doing?

Most people don’t enter a new relationship and announce “once I’m done with a relationship, I’m done and I move on very quickly”.  To me that’s a threat of sorts.  To me that means there’s no room for forgiveness, talking things through, second thoughts.  Misunderstandings happen.  There’s normally space to “reorganize” for those who understand and want lasting love.  It’s not black and white.

I’m not so sure this AA woman is the “one”.  Not once you do your real work, RF.

All of this is NOT to say that you didn’t bring your own defensive, etc behaviors into the relationship.  You’ve owned up to those.

My teeny tiny two cents.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[RomanticFool]

Please know I’m not being flippant with these questions, but I did see so many red flags at the beginning, middle and end of your relationship with AA girl.  Red flags that YOU showed me through your relating of things that had occurred.  I had no way to see these things for myself. 

Yes, there were red flags galore, probably in my behaviour too.

Did AA girl physically assault you (twice as I recall) because you were still cohabiting with your wife?  Was the fight about that?

It was four times and no the arguments weren't all about me being married. However, they started off that way and what triggered the rows in the initial stages was that she started referring to me as a narcissist as I told her that addiction was essentially narcissistic. She would then say that as I was cheating on my wife I was a liar. I told her that since she was involved with me it was hypocritical to call me a liar and she would become combative. I asked her to calm down or I would leave. That statement triggered her and she would shout at me. A couple of times I left to avoid a scene. She would then tearfully call me on the phone and beg me to come back. Most of the time I did. However, as time progressed the shouting and accusations became more acute. I told her constantly that I adored her and wanted no other woman. However, the aggression continued and then one time when I went to walk out she hit me. We got into that pattern on four occasions. As time progressed the problem became less about me being married and more about the way we argued. She constantly told me that we didn't argue well. I tried very hard to remain calm but I found her temper terrifying and just wanted to run every time I saw her get angry or upset. Yes, my unavailability to her was the initial trigger - but it then became more about our lack of compatibility as she saw it.

Did AA girl lack empathy for you in every instance (as you have related) because you were still cohabiting with your wife?

That's a hard question to answer. She always said that if I remained in my marriage the relationship would become toxic. I was constantly trying to convince her that it didn't have to become toxic as we would end up together eventually. Many of the arguments I would say were centred around her own insecurity. Not just about the marriage but about my trustworthiness. So we could trace it back to the marriage being the major cause but she also had other issues such as when I spilled tea on her carpet she would fly into a rage. Or when I joked about whether or not she'd read all of the books on her bookshelf with a friend of hers she flew into a rage. She was extremely jealous that I got on well with her friend who was eight months pregnant and felt very threatened by that in the beginning. In the end she stopped caring about my marriage and when we reconnected after she dumped me the first time, she was less interested in my marriage and more critical of me as a person and my apparent aggression in arguments and refusal to take the blame for the arguments. We basically blamed each other's aggression on the fights. This is when the real lack of empathy kicked in as she was well into the devaluation stage by now. Once we reconvened I think she started to tighten the noose of control and up the criticism and lack of respect for me. Because I had begged her to come back to me I think she lost all respect and felt she could treat me how she wanted.

Was every argument, every disagreement, every push/pull behavior triggered by the fact you were still cohabiting with your wife?

see above.

Did AA girl bring up the subject of your wife and beg that you divorce so you could be with her during the entirety of the relationship?

Towards the end she stopped caring about that. She as discovering herself in AA and I think my usefulness in the r/s was wearing thin. Any arguments would be met with threats of finding 'other options' towards the end. I then reacted to that.

Will the fact that you are no longer cohabiting with your wife, or even when you divorce your wife CHANGE the personality of the AA girl?

It wouldn't change her personality but had that been the case in the beginning of the r/s I don't think she would have been triggered so early on. I do think there would have been other issues that would have set her off though. It's just the abandonment issue is obviously the main source of insecurity and mistrust.

Please think about these questions.  Please think about the real answers.  Not what you WISH the answers to be.  People are who they are...  unless they’re working to alter their attitudes and behaviors.

My belief is that we could have had a two year r/s instead of a one year if I was free to see her. I think the marriage issue was a major source of insecurity to begin with. But watching how it evolved into just having an issue with our dynamic, I think eventually she would have started raging at me for other things. I can't be sure of that and if I was better at validating her and making her feel secure, I could have had a much better r/s, but make no mistake she would try the patience of a saint - and I'm no saint. I would have been willing to try though as I found her a joy to be with when on good form. When her banshee came out I just wanted to run. She found me difficult when I got angry too and called me a demon. We were both the same in arguments but she blamed me for everything in the end.

You’re in process of learning who you are through your SLAA program and you’re about to begin therapy.  What is SHE doing?

I don't know what she is doing. During the endgame of the r/s she told me that every angry email I sent her was going straight to her AA sponsor. I didn't believe her but she may well be doing step 4 in AA, which is looking at our own behaviour - or she may be avoiding it altogether. I don't know how willing she would be to look at her part with me.

Most people don’t enter a new relationship and announce “once I’m done with a relationship, I’m done and I move on very quickly”.  To me that’s a threat of sorts.  To me that means there’s no room for forgiveness, talking things through, second thoughts.  Misunderstandings happen.  There’s normally space to “reorganize” for those who understand and want lasting love.  It’s not black and white.

I totally agree and I picked her up on that at the beginning. This was a major reason why I backtracked on the decision to end my marriage. I thought she might end it early on. Yes, her thinking is very black and white. It worried me at the time. She also told me that when she loved she loves fiercely. She said it almost like a warning. Conversely, that was one of the things that drew me to her.

I’m not so sure this AA woman is the “one”.  Not once you do your real work, RF.

You're right. What I really should tell myself is that there is no such thing as the one. That romantic nonsense has taken me to a very dark place.

All of this is NOT to say that you didn’t bring your own defensive, etc behaviors into the relationship.  You’ve owned up to those.

Yes, I would like to think I would do things differently. However, when she got in my face or lost her temper, I actually think the best thing to do is to walk away - which is exactly what I did.

[Skip]

What’s that about?

It's the cumulative affect of 3-4 failed relationships, RM. You never ended them and avoided grieving and recovery because it was too painful. Now you face all 4 (or three).

Affair 1 (pre-marriage) ended - you got married to some one else.
Marriage failed, you jumped into affair 2.
Affair 2 failed and you jumped into affair 3.
Affair 3 failed and here you are...

Affair 1-2 is with her family.
Your live in wife spend a year healing and is now a new relationship.
Affair three is going through its dying gasps.

Your dad is dying.

It is the holiday season.

It's a huge amount of loss to grieve at a difficult time of year for many.

In the past you have covered over grief with new relationships - you have been running from grief and avoiding it for years. And it is adding up, RM.

It hurts to lose someone we love - no matter how difficult the relationship. It's a pain we all have faced.

We're here to help. To walk with you.

 

[RomanticFool]

Plus the woman I spent a whole year with who knows my father is dying and my wife is moving out is behaving like I was never anything to her. I have had so much reality from the fellowships and sponsors and on here. I need to acknowledge that the loss of the most recent r/s is the most devastating of all. I feel like I’ll never meet anybody who I felt that in love with again.

I have been going out with friends and taking time for myself. I have no interest in getting involved with another r/s. I want my ex but if she has met someone else I would never talk to her again. She has been abusive and lacking in empathy or love. I hate her and love her. I don’t want to be without her but I know she feels nothing for me at all.

[RomanticFool]

The biggest problem I have right now is the feeling that she is the woman I’d been looking for my whole life. When I’m with her I feel that life has meaning. No other woman has ever made me feel that I can finally live when I’m with her. What’s that about?

[Skip]

When I’m with her I feel that life has meaning.

But how does she feel?

Going back to the empathy thing... do you not see that your actions and messages to her are often about your needs - and slap down hers?

Before you go off above her evilness and me taking her side, stop and think about what you did - and more importantly what you continue to do that is defeating your relationships.

Look at this big transaction:

You said the marriage was over and a divorce was eminent Your wife moved out - you move her back in. No divorce was ever filed. You and yuor wife agreed  that it was a trial separation. You agreed to live with GF but refused to share expenses. You tool wife to Italy on vacation. 14 months later, wife still living in house. Divorce not filled or in the making.

Look at little transaction:

Her: Any good Netflix movies (soft probe) You: I love you. You: You didn't respond, so I'm blocking you. I don't want to be your friend. You: <the sound of blocking accounts>

To her, all of this is about a "taking/consuming" love - not a giving love. Anyone would feel that. If you want to be in a two-way love relationship, you can't be this way.

Look at this long standing state of mind:

You describe her (for months) and an evil psychopath and the love of your life.

You are also not serving yourself.

Does it make any sense that either of these are true, let alone, true at the same time? If these are the assumptions you have in life, will any decisions make sense?

Evil psychopath: It sounds like you have zero respect for her as a person (not a good basis for a relationships)

Love of your life:  It sounds like the you want the first three weeks of the relationship back - the honeymoon phase and when there was no track record and she believed in you.

Is that ever possible? Do we ever have relationships that live on like that?

So what am I getting at?

1. If you want her back, you will need to prove you have changed significantly. Anything short of that is not going to advance the relationship. And ,even if you do it, it may be too little, too late. I'm not saying she is good and you are bad - I'm saying that she is not going to accept "more of the same". If you don't want to do that - then accept that you have irreconcilable differences. 

2. If you want any relationship, you will need to be a better partner than you were to your wife, affair partner 1 or affair partner 2. If you don't want to do that - if you want to remain the same - then accept that you continue to bump into rough rides. It's certainly your choice.

[Bhs]

I hear you saying that you wanted to meet her half way but I'm curious as to what "half-way" means to you.  You say the following:

- You told her that you were reacting to what she was doing to you, and that you were not causing the toxicity.
- You apologized for being married but did not get divorced.
- You didn't visit her on days she was in a bad mood.

I understand you took her on holiday, but aside from gifts or apologies can you talk about what actions you took or changes you made to meet her half-way?  What was your plan to make the r/s work before you went on holiday? Were you hoping to discuss and resolve the issues with her? Sometimes thinking through these things can help us get some understanding of what can be improved in the next r/s.

Did you consider getting divorced rather than taking her on holiday?  I'm curious because as I read it, you could get divorced for the money you spent on the vacation and I wonder if that raised some questions and/or doubt in her mind. I realize she asked for the vacation but wondering if that conflicted her a bit...knowing you would take her on vacation but not get divorced.  Maybe something to consider.

I think people are having a hard time putting the marriage to rest because it's hard to figure out what is really going on. In your previous posts you indicate your marriage was over when you met this girl. You weren't divorced because of money and this is your self-expression as an unconventional person...apparently you had no emotional ties to the marriage.

Then you indicate that had you known your wife would find someone you would have left the marriage when you first met your ex. This makes it seem like it wasn't about money or being unconventional...or even what your ex wanted...it was about whether your wife had someone else.  Can you talk about why that fact made the difference in whether you left your marriage? I'm trying to understand how that decision fits in to this.

We all hope you are feeling less despondent. Although you didn't walk away the first time you have the chance to begin recovering now.

Peace.

[RomanticFool]

You told her that you were reacting to what she was doing to you, and that you were not causing the toxicity.
- You apologized for being married but did not get divorced.
- You didn't visit her on days she was in a bad mood.

I always intended on leaving my marriage. I just wasn't sure when as I knew my ex was volatile. When i say in a bad mood - days when she was pushing me away and I knew it would take a monumental effort to get her back on side. Sometimes the stress of dealing with her got the better of me. She felt I was the problem and I felt she was the problem. We talked about it all the time. One time she said, 'I'll admit that I have a part to play in the toxicity of the relationship.' I said, 'That's great, I never heard you say that before.' Then she said 'But you won't admit to doing anything.' I said I will - please tell me what you think I am doing. 'She said you shouted at me in my flat.' I said, 'If I shouted at you I apologise, but my memory is that it was you that shouted.' Cue her losing her temper. That was the only time I ever heard her say that she had a part to play in the toxicity. The usual conversation went that if I didn't shape up she had other options.

I understand you took her on holiday, but aside from gifts or apologies can you talk about what actions you took or changes you made to meet her half-way?  What was your plan to make the r/s work before you went on holiday? Were you hoping to discuss and resolve the issues with her? Sometimes thinking through these things can help us get some understanding of what can be improved in the next r/s.

Did you consider getting divorced rather than taking her on holiday?  I'm curious because as I read it, you could get divorced for the money you spent on the vacation and I wonder if that raised some questions and/or doubt in her mind. I realize she asked for the vacation but wondering if that conflicted her a bit...knowing you would take her on vacation but not get divorced.  Maybe something to consider.

Ok, so we're back to the marriage again. Towards the end of the r/s she no longer cared whether I was married or not. When we went on holiday she never even mentioned it. She urged me to book the holiday and then the next day she said she didn't want to go, not because I was married, but because she was worried that we weren't getting on and I only wanted her for sex. I reassured her thousand upon thousands of times about the latter and promised her every day that if we went on holiday there was no pressure from me. I just wanted to spend time with her. The marriage never even crossed her mind on that holiday. If it was something she was concerned about she would have voiced it. This was a woman who was not shy about telling me what was on her mind. By the time the holiday came around she already had one foot out of the r/s. I can see that now.

I think people are having a hard time putting the marriage to rest because it's hard to figure out what is really going on. In your previous posts you indicate your marriage was over when you met this girl. You weren't divorced because of money and this is your self-expression as an unconventional person...apparently you had no emotional ties to the marriage.

In my mind, my marriage was over. However, I hadn't known the new woman (who I refer to as my ex) long and I wanted to make sure she wasn't just infatuated. I wanted to make sure it was real love.  It wasn't just about money, it was about seeing my wife cry and feeling guilty. It was also because I saw red flags in my ex's behaviour and wanted to make sure it wasn't too soon. I wanted nothing more than to be with my ex. I was in love with her early on. Perhaps I didn't have the courage to leave my marriage - or perhaps I knew deep down something was wrong in the new r/s. There were many things to consider and I told myself that if it was real love then it would win out in the end. My ex did say to me that had I gone through with it and left my wife after I told her I had a crush on somebody, that she never would have doubted my loyalty and never had trust issues. Knowing what I know about her behaviour now, I'm not sure that trust would have lasted.

en you indicate that had you known your wife would find someone you would have left the marriage when you first met your ex. This makes it seem like it wasn't about money or being unconventional...or even what your ex wanted...it was about whether your wife had someone else.  Can you talk about why that fact made the difference in whether you left your marriage? I'm trying to understand how that decision fits in to this.

I guess if I was able to look into the future and see that my wife would meet somebody so quickly, it would have made me feel less guilty and I would have gone through with the marriage break up. I was horribly conflicted. I loved my ex but felt the weight of duty to my wife. It's an old story and finding myself in that situation was awful. I was indecisive and a coward. I didn't go for what I really wanted and ruined both relationships in the process.

We all hope you are feeling less despondent. Although you didn't walk away the first time you have the chance to begin recovering now.

I'm only walking away now because I have no choice. If my ex still wanted me I'd most likely try to find a way to make it work. Other people have said that was the case before and I have denied it, but I actually think they're right. I still want her but maybe in the long run this will be a blessing in disguise.  Bloody good disguise!