Father has been in hospital. It’s not unreasonable to want her love

[RomanticFool]

I’ll just say this final thing. When a person is suffering grief, in my case because my father has been in hospital for three weeks. It’s not unreasonable to want love and support from people dear to you. My anger at my ex has been fuelled by the fact I accompanied her to the hospital when she had her cancer scare and she makes no enquiry as to how I am doing or feeling. It’s clear she doesn’t care and I’ve finally woken up and realised how little she thinks of me. Giving her the opportunity to ring me is really an emotional decision based on the folorn hope she might overlook her own self centred needs and fears and actually be a human being - but it’s a folorn hope because a person without real empathy is not a real person. They are really half a human.

[Enabler]

RF,

Sorry to hear about your father, my father passed away in 2015 after an 18m battle with cancer. It's truly terrible.

Could you help me understand, would you say that you think the world 'does things' to you, or would you say that things happen, people do things and you accidentally get in the way. An example of this might be that when you're driving down the motorway in the outside lane, a car pulls in front of you, do you think to yourself " , what are you doing man, are you trying to kill me?" or "Woow, please check your blind spot buddy!".

Can you see what I'm getting at?

Enabler

[RomanticFool]

Hi Enabler,

Thank you for your best wishes regarding my dad. Very sorry to hear about your dad. Cancer is indeed a horrible disease. My father has Myeloma, which attacks the spine and he was in terrible pain but they managed to reduce a huge tumour on his disc and he is looking much better, though still frail.

I don’t have a victim mentality at all generally. I don’t believe bad things especially happen to me. I think life is random and we get good and bad. I think what is becoming clear about my relationships is I’ve become embroiled with some extremely damaged women who have triggered my own issues. I clearly have co-dependent tendencies and suffer from emotional and sexual dependency when triggered by a particular type of woman. I also believe my own behaviours have exacerbated these situations. When I’m involved with healthy women my issues remain at manageable levels. When I involve myself with borderlines or narcissists such as my recent ex, my sense of injustice (ironically something she talked about constantly) become triggered in more extreme ways.

I have been emotional the last few days. I am upset that my dad is ill, emotional around my wife moving out in February, though not devastated and very angry that my ex does this cat and mouse game with the contact. I know it would be better to not respond. I know it would be better to be friendly to her but I feel she has betrayed me and there is no going back now. Believe me I haven’t said half the things I would like to say to her. One of which is that she begged me for months to be out of my marriage and now that I am she has disappeared. However, I take responsibility for that. I chose to cheat on my wife. Mostly what I feel is the pain of rejection and abandonment by a woman who has a history of it. Blocking her email and effectively telling her to leave me alone feels empowering and healthy. Though part of it is done in anger, mostly it is now out of self preservation. All hope of that relationship is gone and I want a clean slate to begin the New Year with eventually free from the agony of this utter disastrous coupling.

[Enabler]

I don’t have a victim mentality at all generally. I don’t believe bad things especially happen to me. I think life is random and we get good and bad...

...When I involve myself with borderlines or narcissists such as my recent ex, my sense of injustice (ironically something she talked about constantly) become triggered in more extreme ways.

Injustice is a sense that 'things' are 'done' to us rather than just happen. I suppose you could see it as a sense of being a victim, I hadn't thought about it that way.

Do you believe the alcoholism and the sex dependency are things that are done to you or things that you do to yourself? Other people influence your emotions for sure but would you say they 'make' you drink or would you say I drink because I'm in emotional turmoil. Do you see other people as doing things intentionally to hurt you or do you see people doing their thing and you bump into their thing and it ends in  trouble?

Enabler

[RomanticFool]

I see myself as bumping up against damaged people. I see that I have similar issues to these damaged people, namely emotional volatility under duress and abandonment/rejection issues. I have a sense that these things 'shouldn't' be happening to me and that I 'should' be in healthy and loving relationships like my sister. Her husband died in the summer after they had been together for 40 years. She talks about her terrible grief and how he was her 'better' half. She says after all those years they are were linked in so many ways, intertwined like the neurons in the brain. He never criticised her and loved her unconditionally and turned her faults into virtues. Nobody sees her like he did. I felt jealous of what she had but also a sense of how rare and wonderful that is. I have sought something similar my whole life. You only have to look at the name I use on here to see how I view myself. I may not be equipped to have that kind of relationship with anybody, certainly not anybody damaged who requires me to be their emotional caretaker, however much I love them.

I don't think anything is being done to me. I think I am a flawed character who doesn't really know how to function healthily in relationships with certain people without becoming emotionally triggered. However, with my wife, we never really had those problems. She has told me repeatedly during our break up that she has never found me to be unreasonable or volatile to her. She saw that I had a few temper outbursts here and there but feels even those have calmed to almost nothing. My ex on the other hand accused me constantly of being narcissistic and difficult with her. My wife laughed when I told her what the ex said and maintains that she does not find me narcissistic because I have empathy. She also says that she doesn't find me egotistical in the way that some people in my profession are. I have asked her repeatedly over the last few months if she feels I am disordered in any way. She has told me that she thinks the places I am finding women - ie in AA - has been my main problem. She told me to look outside of the fellowships for my next relationship. I don't say that to paint myself in a good light, but rather to say that while I am aware of things about myself that my wife is not (she is soon to be my ex wife in case you didn't know as she has a new partner) she is of the opinion that finding damaged women is bringing out the worst in me. I feel pretty much the same too. Not to say I don;'t have damage myself, but unlike my ex I can do relationships and live in relative harmony. She has never been in one for longer than a couple of years, including her marriage.

However, what does need to be pointed out here is that I was never really 'in love' with my wife in the way that i was with my ex. We didn't connect on a sexual level at all and it is in this arena where my issues are triggered. In the marriage I became bored and sought my sexual gratification outside of the relationship which led to a string of painful and damaging affairs. I'd like to meet somebody I had all of those things with that my sister talks about. That is my aspiration.

RF

[Harri]

Hi RF and welcome to PSI.   

I'd like to meet somebody I had all of those things with that my sister talks about. That is my aspiration.

I hope you meet someone like that too.

One thing I've learned in recovery is that I attract and am attracted to people who are similar to me in terms of emotional wounds and we both have issues that need to be worked on.  Awareness of that dynamic is fine.  Self awareness is even more important though as only then can we begin to take action to heal and change how we respond internally, process events and then act outwardly.   

I know you said you are on a waiting list to start therapy and I think that is great.  Have you spent time exploring what your wounds are and where they came from?  How they influence your behaviors and coping skills when in intimate relationships?  Doing that is a part of what we do on this board.  Many of us here have done work both on this board and in therapy.  We may not have all the answers but we can walk beside you if you decide you want to dig in.

[Turkish]

My anger at my ex has been fuelled by the fact I accompanied her to the hospital when she had her cancer scare and she makes no enquiry as to how I am doing or feeling. It’s clear she doesn’t care and I’ve finally woken up and realised how little she thinks of me.

It might be that, or that she's wrapped up in dealing with something herself.  You might be "talking past each other," so to speak. I saw it in my ex and her husband (stbx).  Both of them were hurt (he had just lost his mother) and both of them were angry for their own reasons, which i saw were valid, yet neither side gave an inch of grace due to their personal hurts; thus, conflict.  They were seeking validation. Whether that or not, you feel abandoned, and that's tough. 

[RomanticFool]

When she cut off me off the second time, I was rehearsing a play and I chose not to chase her as I had done the first time ie by sending her love emails every day and begging her to come back, because it would distract me from my work. When she eventually did contact me after two weeks of silence, I asked her what she’d been doing and she said ‘having fun.’ I’d been on the phone to my AA sponsor every day in tears. She wasn’t dealing with anything other than moving on. She used me and then moved on. I do feel abandoned and used and abused. Now I must try to heal.

[Harri]

There is a lot going on for you for sure.

It’s not unreasonable to want love and support from people dear to you.

I agree.  What may not be reasonable is the way we go about trying to get that love and support and how we react when we do not get that love and support.

You have nothing nice to say about your ex yet just last week you wanted to respond to her and talked about how you wanted to get back together.  Where is that response coming from?  It is a cycle I have seen you go through for a couple of years now.  Let's try to figure this out and see if you can change that.

Now I must try to heal.

So let's bring this back around to you then.  A big focus on this board is our own healing and looking within.  So to that end, do you want to take a stab at the questions I asked in my first response here?

[RomanticFool]

One thing I've learned in recovery is that I attract and am attracted to people who are similar to me in terms of emotional wounds and we both have issues that need to be worked on.  Awareness of that dynamic is fine.  Self awareness is even more important though as only then can we begin to take action to heal and change how we respond internally, process events and then act outwardly.   

I know you said you are on a waiting list to start therapy and I think that is great.  Have you spent time exploring what your wounds are and where they came from?  How they influence your behaviors and coping skills when in intimate relationships?  Doing that is a part of what we do on this board.  Many of us here have done work both on this board and in therapy.  We may not have all the answers but we can walk beside you if you decide you want to dig in.

I agree that I attract people emotionally similar to me. However, there is a distinct difference. I can sustain love in the right circumstances. I don't believe my ex can. That is the main difference between us and the source of much of the conflict. She was constantly threatening to walk away. At the beginning when I had to leave her flat because she was being aggressive (I took that advice to leave from here) she would scream from the rooftops that I was abandoning her. I went back almost every time to soothe her. She never once did that for me. It was always one sided. Her emotional needs were always top of the agenda. I was persona non grata. Not important - it was all about her. That's what I knew instinctively and what I rebelled against.

I'm still on the waiting list for therapy. The only thing i've explored is through SLAA. I realised that my earliest memories were traumatic: 1) Mother having a fight with a German woman in the washroom in Germany. 2) Surviving hurricane Camille at 6 years old. The roof of the shelter on the air force base was leaking. We survey the wreckage in Biloxi afterwards and it was like a war zone. 3) Being left alone with my cousin to go swimming and screaming because I wanted to be with my mother.

I am as certain as I can be that much of it stems from separation anxiety from my mother. On top of this my father was in the US Air Force and was away alot in my formative years - in Alaska and Johnston Island. I believe I wasn't nurtured properly. My mother was always telling us kids that we didn't understand her or her feelings. She often told us we were selfish. There was always an atmosphere in the house from her and my dad arguing. I wasn't nurtured enough. On top of that I was brought up a Catholic and rebelled when I became sexually aware. I hated feeling guilty about sex and everything else. I'm sure this is where it all comes from.

I once did a screenwriters workshop with Robert McKee and he said, some people have traumatic childhoods and remain unaffected by it. Not everybody suffers from the effects of a traumatic childhood. There were significant events but I'm not convinced they were enough for me to develop a personality disorder. Nor do I consider that I have a personality disorder. I am volatile under pressure as were both my mother, father and several billion people on the planet. It is my conjecture that I have abandonment issues which become severely pronounced when dealing with people that I know will most likely abandon me. Surely that is just good instincts? The bad part of the equation is that with my ex and the previous affair before her, I ignored my instincts and the obvious red flags because I was addictively hooked on both.

[Harri]

Hi RF.  Thanks for getting back to this. 

I agree that I attract people emotionally similar to me. However, there is a distinct difference. I can sustain love in the right circumstances. I don't believe my ex can.

I think a lot of us can say that we do not respond well to certain stimuli so you are not alone in that.  To me that indicates that those circumstances are not something I should immerse myself in, certainly not in a romantic relationship where I am more vulnerable, until I have done a lot of work on me and even then I am not sure it is wise or healthy.  Thoughts?

I see a bit of a disconnect with looking at your part in the dynamic that led to the breakdown of your marriage and 2 affairs and I think it is highlighted when you write "I don't believe my ex can".   We can look at our behaviors within the context of another's and there is validity in that.  It helps us see where we go when in distress and how we respond to it.  Beyond that there is, IMO, little value in doing so.   To change, to heal, to stop repeating the same patterns that appear to be 'circumstance' requires looking at our behaviors in isolation as well.  When we compare our own poor behaviors to another's poor behaviors a wall is put up within us that prevents us from the insight needed to achieve true change.  Tearing down that wall can be painful and it feels unjust and unfair a lot of times. 

One thing that helps me to keep the focus on me when looking at my behaviors is to think of the kind of person I aspire to be and the sort of relationships I want to have.  Comparing myself to a disordered person with poor relationship and coping skills keeps me repeating patterns that do not jive with the kind of person I want to be or the kind of relationship I want to have.  So using a different metric to examine our behaviors is required.  Otherwise I minimize the effect of my own behavior on *me* in addition to my loved ones.

There were significant events but I'm not convinced they were enough for me to develop a personality disorder. Nor do I consider that I have a personality disorder.

Okay.  This is not about whether or not I think you have a personality disorder though.  This is about helping you get to a healthier place so you can have that relationship you want with a healthy person.

It is my conjecture that I have abandonment issues which become severely pronounced when dealing with people that I know will most likely abandon me.

Abandonment issues do not just happen though and they will impact the way you act and react within a relationship.   Focus on that, not on a label.

My mother was always telling us kids that we didn't understand her or her feelings. She often told us we were selfish. There was always an atmosphere in the house from her and my dad arguing. I wasn't nurtured enough. On top of that I was brought up a Catholic and rebelled when I became sexually aware. I hated feeling guilty about sex and everything else. I'm sure this is where it all comes from.

Reading through this I think about parentification or emotional incest.  Are you familiar with those concepts and how that sort of childhood parental relationship can influence us in the present?

Surely that is just good instincts? The bad part of the equation is that with my ex and the previous affair before her, I ignored my instincts and the obvious red flags because I was addictively hooked on both.

I am not sure I would call it good instincts.  It seems more like reacting to bad behavior with bad behavior regardless of whose behavior is worse.  Does it matter that millions of other people may behave the same way?  I don't think so especially when I remember that approximately 27% of the population has a mental disorder. 

Much of what I wrote above addresses this 'addiction' you talk about here.  Part of what we do on this board is try to get to a place where we can see what our programmed instinctive behaviors are and then make conscious choices to act differently.  We can help you with that.

I know I have gone on a lot in this post and it is long so I am going to wrap this up by saying you are not alone in these struggles.  The emotional reactions you have and the feelings you describe here are very familiar to me and I am sure others on this board and the site.  You are dealing with some really hard stuff here and I am challenging you on some of it.  We support each other here and part of that is questioning and challenging you to take a deep dive and look within.  I appreciate you being open to the process.   

[JNChell]

Hi, RomanticFool. I’ve been following your story on Detaching for a while now. I’m not able to really interact at the moment, but I wanted to say that I’m glad that you’re posting and sharing here.

[RomanticFool]

think a lot of us can say that we do not respond well to certain stimuli so you are not alone in that.  To me that indicates that those circumstances are not something I should immerse myself in, certainly not in a romantic relationship where I am more vulnerable, until I have done a lot of work on me and even then I am not sure it is wise or healthy.  Thoughts?

I would like to say that I really had no idea my ex was going to be bad for me but I met her in an AA meeting when she was only one month sober. Therefore, in any sane person's reckoning, it was my own fault for getting involved with somebody clearly unstable. So I guess the first thing to avoid in future is women in AA, especially newly sober ones. I suspended my fears around her lack of stability because I had been emotionally and sexually deprived in my marriage for years. I fell in love/lust with a beautiful but damaged creature and I got what was predictable. That is what I see now. So, yes, avoiding this situation in the future is crucial to my well-being. I still miss her every day though.

I see a bit of a disconnect with looking at your part in the dynamic that led to the breakdown of your marriage and 2 affairs and I think it is highlighted when you write "I don't believe my ex can".   We can look at our behaviors within the context of another's and there is validity in that.  It helps us see where we go when in distress and how we respond to it.  Beyond that there is, IMO, little value in doing so.   To change, to heal, to stop repeating the same patterns that appear to be 'circumstance' requires looking at our behaviors in isolation as well.  When we compare our own poor behaviors to another's poor behaviors a wall is put up within us that prevents us from the insight needed to achieve true change.  Tearing down that wall can be painful and it feels unjust and unfair a lot of times.

I think my ex struggles in relationships. She has left every r/s she was ever involved in. I believe she never told me the truth about the dynamics with previous boyfriends. I found her to be totally lacking in empathy and she once accidentally showed me her phone when she was unblocking me and I saw she had around 20 people blocked. I have no people blocked on my phone. That tells its own story.

I responded poorly to her behaviour partly because it's who I am and partly because I thought behaving strongly was what she respected. I realised at the beginning of the r/s that some of my avoidant behaviours were playing out. When she got in my face I walked out as has been suggested on these boards. I did try several times to reason with her and cuddle her. However, as time went on, my own behaviours became triggered when I found her unreasonable. Like both my parents, I am quick to anger at times. I am an emotional thinker and at times volatile. I saw this very much in this relationship. My ex said she only liked me when I was in my wise head and yet she had the worse temper I've ever encountered. In the end she said, "We don't get on.' She is right, I don't get on with anybody who uses me for a holiday and then dumps me shortly after. I don't get on with anybody who tells me that I am damaged because I cry from the pain of the emotional abuse they have inflicted on me. I really disliked her in the end. The ability to cut me off WhatsApp in a brutal way is both rude and abusive behaviour. As much as I miss her, I am glad to be away from the abuse.

One thing that helps me to keep the focus on me when looking at my behaviors is to think of the kind of person I aspire to be and the sort of relationships I want to have.  Comparing myself to a disordered person with poor relationship and coping skills keeps me repeating patterns that do not jive with the kind of person I want to be or the kind of relationship I want to have.  So using a different metric to examine our behaviors is required.  Otherwise I minimize the effect of my own behavior on *me* in addition to my loved ones.

I know what person I want to be, I'm just not capable of being that person - yet. I use my emotions in my working life. I see other people in my profession as emotionally volatile. In fact when I'm in the work environment I feel that other people can behave like children and I often am the calm reasonable one. I am by no means 'off the charts' with my volatility, but it certainly seems to come out to play in my love relationships. Even in friendships I'm restrained. With partners I am afraid of losing I can become crazy. During the r/s with my ex I lost my mind. I would drive around to her house after text arguments and bang on the door. In the early stages she would let me in and we'd make passionate love. In the end she wouldn't even answer the door. I can't describe adequately how painful this was. I am moved to tears when I write this. I am still grieving my ex. I miss her physically and emotionally. How can I miss an abuser?

Reading through this I think about parentification or emotional incest.  Are you familiar with those concepts and how that sort of childhood parental relationship can influence us in the present?

Yes I am. My ex allowed her daughter to parent her and I found it utterly abhorrent. Her daughter texted me (a week after my ex and I returned from holiday and were getting on well) asking me not to come over as she didn't want to hear us arguing. I came over and my ex intercepted me and said that her daughter was hysterical. Since her daughter had a drug-addled boyfriend who my ex indulged, I told my ex that she must take control in this situation and not allow her daughter to parent her. She replied, 'If it comes to a choice between you and my daughter, I'm not going to choose you.' I knew in that moment that the relationship was over. Her daughter knew she could dictate terms with her mother and would have hysterical outburts if she didn't get her own way.

In those terms my parents behaved like parents. They were strict and authoritarian but I was deprived of emotional nurturing. My mother was a self absorbed woman and my father suffered untreated depression which often became rage. My mother also had a temper. This was the atmosphere five kids were brought up in. My siblings (one of whom died at 17) maintain that we had a happy childhood. I remember feeling frustrated and bored alot. I was often at loggerheads with my parents as most kids are. Mine continued into adulthood.

I feel murderous towards my ex. I have fantasised about burning her house down, seducing her daughter out of revenge, parading a new love at her regular AA meeting, or screaming at her in the street in front of her friends and denouncing her for all the threats she ever made to me, beating up her new boyfriend. Of course I would never do any of these things. I haven't been to our usual AA meeting for months. I don't want to see her - but these are ugly thoughts and they trouble me that they enter my head at all. Is this the result of my mother putting her emotional instability onto us kids? Emotional incest as you say?

I am not sure I would call it good instincts.  It seems more like reacting to bad behavior with bad behavior regardless of whose behavior is worse.  Does it matter that millions of other people may behave the same way?  I don't think so especially when I remember that approximately 27% of the population has a mental disorder.

Much of what I wrote above addresses this 'addiction' you talk about here.  Part of what we do on this board is try to get to a place where we can see what our programmed instinctive behaviors are and then make conscious choices to act differently.  We can help you with that.

I know I have gone on a lot in this post and it is long so I am going to wrap this up by saying you are not alone in these struggles.  The emotional reactions you have and the feelings you describe here are very familiar to me and I am sure others on this board and the site.  You are dealing with some really hard stuff here and I am challenging you on some of it.  We support each other here and part of that is questioning and challenging you to take a deep dive and look within.  I appreciate you being open to the process.  

I am volatile in relationships at times. I can become verbally aggressive if a woman triggers me with unreasonable behaviour. However, I have never been violent towards anybody in my life and this aggression is always in response to bad behaviour. My ex was undoubtedly nervous of our dynamic because she knew that I wouldn't tolerate her abuse and she must also have known that she couldn't help her own volatility because I triggered her. That's why she said that we don't get on. It's painful as hell but I think she was right. The fact that she moved on quickly and was able to cut me off tells me that she wasn't a reliable person nor did she have good character. I am glad that I did not chase her in the way that I did during the first break up. In all honesty a person who treats me that way doesn't deserve me. That's the kind of self worth that I am developing.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks for your message JNChell