Do not want to boomerang again

[MisterT]

I’ve been married 16 years. For the first few I realized that my wife was very demanding, had really high standards, and had a bad temper, but it all seemed very manageable and we did OK when it was just the two of us.  She quickly didn’t like my family after we got married and I spent less time with family and friends to try to make her happy.  And I started losing family and friends because they never met her standards and she was always fighting with them. She and her family were estranged before I met her and they kept trying to reunite with her but she cut them off.

After a few years we had kids and things started getting worse - she was now obsessed with perfection in our kids. She was finding tiny things that she considered “wrong” and kept going to doctors until she found one who would do what she wanted. Like thinking our daughter was pigeon-toed when she wasn’t and getting a doctor to put her in leg braces.  Or having our son put in speech therapy for a very normal pre-schooler lisp. Or having our other son in physical therapy because she was convinced his head and neck weren’t symmetrical.  I’m a very non-confrontational guy and just said “happy wife happy life” and “she must know more about kids than me.”  If I ever disagreed on any of this I got yelled at and was told that I don’t  care about the kids.

She also nags me relentlessly on everything from the money I spend to my friends. She is jealous if I go work out and accuses me of cheating if I go to the gym for an hour or walk the dog for 30 minutes.  She tells the kids I’m having an affair.  She works 3 hours a day but refuses to cook, clean, take care of the yard or dog. I do everything around the house.

The perfection thing got out of control when the kids got to school. Now she was fighting with teachers and principals over pre-school and kindergarten grades that didn’t even matter.  We kept switching schools because she was dissatisfied with the education everywhere we enrolled.  I kept trying to help her find happiness. Now they’re in middle school and she is still fighting with teachers and school administrators.

About 5 years ago I started paying attention that the problem was her and not me, the school, the kids.  When I pointed this out she really started to turn on me and she accused me of not being a supportive husband. Things are now at the worst - the kids are expressing more independence and want to have some say in their rooms, their clothes, their friends, but she meddles in everything and micromanages every detail. Nothing is good enough.  The kids are getting angry and I think it will turn violent.

We tried counseling 3 times and all failed.  All these years I’ve tried to find ways to make and keep her happy and I started seeing a therapist on my own who helped me realize there is no making her happy. It will always be something else she “needs.”  

I found out about BPD/NPD and read everything I could.  Books, articles, message board ALL describe her perfectly.  I decided to stay in the marriage and try to set firm but loving boundaries to role model for the kids how to manage this relationship.  But as I started being more firm her anger and extremes were amplified.

Kids are now 13, 11 and 9. We were close to getting a divorce earlier this year. I just had enough of all the chronic fighting and anger that’s has taken over the house.  Totally toxic from everyone. Kids fight with her constantly and she provokes most of the fights with them.  She knew I was done with living this way and she made promises to “change” which I believed and I gave her another chance.  This is my weakness.

Then, on Thanksgiving this year, she and 13 year old son got into an argument with her that escalate very quickly and he tried hitting her with a chair. This triggered her big time and she tried to provoke him into a more physical fight. I stepped in the middle of them and she hit me in the face and left scratches.

That was it for me. I realized this will only get worse and I need to protect these kids.  I saw a lawyer, called county family abuse hotline, and gave her an ultimatum to get it under control and get therapy or I was getting a divorce. She shoved me three times. So I had a protective order filed against her.

My lawyer specializes in divorcing high-conflict BP and NP types and I’m moving forward. I’m still in the house and wife is back to to her “please don’t do this, I’ll change” speeches. I do not want to boomerang again. I know this is my weakness - wanting to keep the peace and keep my family together.  But I finally see that I need to divorce her to be happy and protect my kids.

I need help from you all who have been here to help me stick with this and not fall back into the cycle.  Please help.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.

What are the terms of the protective order? Was your wife required to leave the house?

Have you consulted a lawyer yet?

[MisterT]

Thank you for the reply.

The PO was very lenient and I mostly wanted to send her a message that I would not stand by and let her hit me and provoke violence against the kids or me. It was 72 hour Emergency PO that prohibited violent acts. She was allowed to stay in our house and just had to not be violent. She was fine during the 72 hours.

I have a lawyer who really “gets” BPD & NPD divorce and has been doing this for 20 years. She was the one who encouraged me to get the EPO to record the incident and put wife on warning that I won’t tolerate this behavior.  It was a boundary I had to hold with her. It was heartbreaking to do and I wish she would have just heard my warning and told me she  was sorry and not hit again.  I feel any person would immediately put themselves in therapy after an episode like that.

Saddest thing is that now she has created  a whole different version of what actually happened that night and she’s trying to gaslight me into thinking that I provoked her into hitting and  i was threatening her.  She crying and hysterical that “I’m doing this to her” and she asks me what she ever did to me to deserve this.

I tell her “well, when you started hitting me and provoking a fist fight with our son and then showed no remorse and when I told you I’d call the police you did it again. That  is what you did.”

But now that divorce is imminent one again she’s saying she’ll do anything and will go to therapy to save our marriage. But I’ve been here before.



But she hears none of it and hasn’t learned a thing from the whole episode.

[MisterT]

Last night wife says to me she will do ANYTHING to save our marriage.  I tell her "no, I've been through this and I'm done, done, done."  She has taken me to the limit of what I will accept from her.  Now, once again, she PROMISES to do ANYTHING I want.  We've been here before and this is usually where I say "OK, you need to change how you treat me and the kids" and then we have a good 2-3 weeks.  And over that time she tries to contain her unhappiness and rages, but since day-to-day life is hard for her to handle she starts spending more and more time locked in her room to try to keep the anger inside.  Until one day -- BOOM! -- she goes off because someone left a dish in the sink, or someone turned in a homework assignment late, or something else that nobody can predict.  Then we are right...back...here.

This time I want to be smart and hold her accountable for what she says, does, and how she treats us.  She is telling me she will go to marriage counseling, but I know this isn't going to work.  We've been through 3 attempts at marriage counseling over the years.  A marriage counselor doesn't stand a chance against her.  She has never shown an ounce of interest in changing one thing about herself.

I told her I'm not going to marriage counseling but I do need for her to go see a therapist on her own to talk about the reasons why she keeps on blowing up on her family and becoming abusive to her family.  Again she said she'll do anything but she wants for me to set up the appointment.

I'm being cautious here.  Maybe this time?  Here is what I want to tell her - please let me know if I'm being unfair or if this is going to trigger.  I want to be firm in my boundary, but I also love her and want to see her get the help I know she needs.

I want to tell her:  I am not stopping this separation process because you make an appointment with a therapist.  I plan to continue with what I've started and I want for you to commit to seeing a DBT (or similar) therapist while we are separated.  And if you show a commitment to this process, AND if you take the therapy seriously, AND if you show me you can apply what you are learning, THEN I will consider stopping the process.  But this is a minimum 6 month commitment from you.

My goal is not to get a divorce - my goal is to maintain a safe environment for my kids and myself.  But I'm worried that I'm boomeranging back into this.  I know that I am addicted to this unhealthy marriage to and the idea of fixing her.  I feel like I'll always give her that one more chance and I'll be disappointed again and again and again.  I want a better future.  I'm 46 years old now and have this frightening future vision of myself at 66 still sleeping on the couch and estranged from my adult kids who want nothing to do with wife and me because she'll be fighting with their future spouses, etc., etc., etc... 

But I don't know when to make the break...or how...It really is an addiction isn't it?
 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr.T,  I'm sorry to hear what you are going through.  Waiting for your W to change may prove a thankless vigil.  Let me ask you a couple of questions: What are your gut feelings about your marriage?  What is the best outcome for you and your kids at this point?  What makes you think things will play out differently with your W this time?  Many of us, including me, have recycled plenty of times, only to wind up in the same place farther down the road, except with more pain.  I suggest you focus on yourself and your needs.  What is the right path for you?  It's your call, my friend.

LuckyJim

[GaGrl]

I have two items to communicate...

1. CURRENT SITUATION  -- Your last post was clear on what you expect. Individual counseling by a skilled DBT professional would be her best chance for a path forward. If you stick to this, there is a chance she wants to save the marriage enough to do it. Six to eight weeks of DBT and quitting is not what she needs in order to prove she has fulfilled your guideline -- she needs an entire program of one year's work (and I mean work). Therefore, I agree that your intent to separate while she seems
 serious about fulfilling the therapy promise is a good stand. I do think you would need to provide her a level of support and encouragement should she be serious about the long-term DBT work.

In terms of the separation (which could be called a therapeutic separation), have you thought about the living situation with the children? Would she leave? Would you? Where would the children go, and with whom?

2) FUTURE -- I hear your concern about your future self. My DH and his ex were married for 33 years. They did not live together for the last 14 years of the marriage -- she left him, lived with a series of boyfriends, but continued to stay legally married and come and go in the house they had shared as she pleased. When we reconnected (had known each other as teens and always loved each other), he filed for divorce. Our marriage pulled him out of what I call the "BPD stupor" -- he was depressed and saw no possibility of any other life at the age of 55. His divorce took over 9 months, because...Ex is uBPD/NPD. The last 15 years have been the best of our lives. If life without your PD wife is where you land, it will be OK -- you can feel as if new life is being breathed into a stale existence. If your PD wife is successful with long-term DBT, you also can have a different  life than You have now.

However, you might not ever have the life you want, with your needs met, with a PD wife who refuses therapy and is unwilling to change her current behavior.

Thoughts?

[MisterT]

Lucky Jim,

Thanks for the reply and the good questions. Here are my rambling answers --

My gut feeling about the marriage is that she will not change and I will continue this rebound cycle for the rest of my life. I know she's in panic mode right now because she thinks I'm really going to leave and sadly I've been here before and she's said the same things before.  She's betting that I will cave again this time.  She knows what she has to say to get me back in-line.  She'll say anything right now to stay married. My gut says that she will not go to therapy long-term.  My gut feeling is about this marriage is that if I stay, I'll continue to live an unhappy life and end up sacrificing everything I have - money, family, potential future relationships with sons and daughter, and the idea that I'll ever feel love from a significant other.

The best outcome for me and the kids at this point is a hard one to answer and it's the thing that has kept me locked in indecision for years.  I want to have a happy fulfilling life and I want that for my kids too.  I want to think we can get a divorce and share custody and somehow make the 1/2 time I have with the kids so healthy and pleasant that the 1/2 time they have with her will be OK too.  Right now I feel like I have to be in the house to protect the kids from her anger and toxicity.  I can be their shield.  But maybe with me out of the house she won't have the same triggers and things will mellow down? 

The only reason things will play out differently this time is that I'm much more prepared to move ahead with a divorce this time. In the past I've threatened divorce and talked a big game and never followed through.  But this time I am committed.  I've told my family and friends, my attorney is ready to go, I have the funds ready to go, I have a realtor looking for rentals.  Plus she hit me in front of my kids, which she has never done before.  I'm not going to just take that -- I know that if I ignore that then there will be a next time.  And next time could be a soup can or worse.  But I'm still sad about it and wish I could do something.  I'm hopeful that maybe she "gets it" now and this will motivate her to seek the therapy so that she can be a better Mom and maybe she and I can co-parent.  And maybe stay married if that seems right. 

I don't know my right path.  I just feel torn between wanting the best for my kids and wanting the best for me.  And it seems like I have to decide.  And it's my nature to put myself last.  Somehow the dream of having the happy family seems possible and I just need to make the right moves and the pieces will fall in place.  I feel so much responsibility for HER actions and I feel like I'll always feel guilt for not giving my kids a happy childhood.  It's faulty thinking, I know.  But it is such a soothing thought to me that I could pull it off.  Denial, right? 

Yes it's my call but making that call is torture for me.  I wish I could be one of those guys who can make a decision, right or wrong, and just go for it.  I torture myself for years over the what ifs and maybes and end up just losing more years and stalling the family in my indecision.

[MisterT]

Ga Girl,

Thank you for replying.

I read about people on these Message Boards whose spouses/SOs are in therapy and the situation is improving.  I know it takes a lot of work and patience.  I would love for that to be the end of my story.  But reality is that I've never gotten her to go to more than 2 marriage counseling sessions before she gets fed up and usually starts fighting with the therapist.  So right now the idea of long term commitment to individual therapy seems unrealistic.  If she went, I feel I could provide her support and encouragement, but I'm not sure if the kids (13, 11, and 9) could do the same.  Not that they're bad kids, but they are teenager, pre-teen and a grade schooler and they can be insensitive and challenging to authority.  I don't know that she could just ignore those triggers.   

For separation I've thought about shared custody.  I don't think I have a strong case for sole custody, but shared seems very doable.  But she's already filling the kids heads with anxiety about living in two homes and telling them they are going to be unhappy.  I am fortunate that I have some inheritance money I could use to rent a place a few miles away.  I could also buy out wife from our family home and she could move.  She is insistent that she'll NEVER leave our house and I need to be the one who moves out.  I can negotiate on this.

I think my future is a life without my PD wife.  It's the timing of it that feels wrong and the though that I'll totally screw up my kids.   Just like I can see my future self sleeping on the couch at 66 years old, I can also see an alternate version of my future without her where I'm 66 years old and happy and healthy and have family gatherings with my kids and grandkids.  I really don't think a future with her could ever have that kind of happiness. 

[GaGrl]

A large percentage of your thinking right now is solid -- there is a percentage of doubt there that continues to cloud your thinking.

It should not be up to you to find a therapist for your wife. If she truly is serious about doing what you need to save your marriage, then she needs to be responsible for setting up a therapist appointment.

Her begging, pleading, and promises have always worked before. Something needs to be different this time for her to "get" that you are in a different place about the situation.

[SinisterComplex]

Well MisterT...the most important question I must pose to you...do you really truly want to be done? I am handling your situation with kid gloves because I understand the pain and there are children involved. So your situation requires a bit more delicate handling.

If you can honestly tell me you are done well then I can perhaps help provide you the proper mindsets to detach and be done with it.

Now as you ponder my question...Ask yourself...what are your goals? Where do you see yourself mentally and emotionally a year from now?

I am with GaGrl here in that what you are providing here is conflicted thinking and feeling. What I will offer up is that in these scenarios...don't fall for the BS of listening to your heart and any of that follow your heart nonsense. In your situation you are well beyond that. Time to use your head and think critically. Remove the FOG and use logic.

I will be around and I am here to help. Let me know how you would like to proceed.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[MisterT]

Yes I want to be done with this marriage.  I do not want to sacrifice my children in the process.  If I knew she would be responsible and respectful then I'd have no problem with a divorce.  I think she will manipulate and alienate the children and that drives my fear and clouds my thinking. My wife does not have the skills to care for people emotionally.  I worry the children will suffer without me in the house.

My goals are to divorce and detach, and also preserve a healthy relationship with the children. I want to remain an integral part of their lives and provide the support they need for their emotional health.    

A year from now I want to have a strong bond with my kids and I want to have confidence that when they're not with me they're being cared for by their mother.

Is that possible?  Have other fathers done this successfully?

[SinisterComplex]

MisterT, so this gets interesting. I really want to help you here and I will say I am completely on your side here. My soft spot truly is children. When kids are involved the real fierce protector in me comes out and I essentially go into full on annihilation mode against those who selfishly put children in harm's way. The part that is going to suck for you here in this scenario...as much as you want to care about your wife you have to train your mind to look at her as not so much an enemy, but more someone who is putting your children in harm's way. Now I phrase it that way hoping you get the point that you do not have to demonize your wife, but you do have to steel your heart and go full steam ahead. This is going to be a war not a battle so I am prepping you as such. There is no coddling. There is no playing nice essentially because that will not work and it will not get the job done.

I hope you are following me this far. So, you are going to have to make a lot of unpopular decisions in the short-term to make your long-term happier so I am not going to sugarcoat it. You moving out...definitely the best decision. Under no circumstances do you relent on custody. Sole custody is what you need to fight for. Sadly, you cannot afford to give an inch because you are not dealing with a normal healthy individual. You will not be doing anything to be vindictive or with malicious intent. Tell yourself you are doing what is best for YOU and for your kids. You truly care about your children (a Big Thank You to you for giving a sh*t because I see a lot of parents who act like they give a sh*t, but in truth...they don't).

You cannot worry about your wife trying to turn your kids against you. Most likely that is going to happen. Just continue to be the best father you can be. You cannot control that part of the equation. All you can control is YOU and how you handle your end of it. The best thing to do is to never talk badly about the children's mother in front of them and focus on living happily for YOU.

You have given it your all. Nothing has changed. You have come to the point where it is now or never. You are not happy. You trying to hold everything together while it seems noble isn't serving anyone justice. I guarantee your kids are feeling the negative energy vibrations and that is all the more reason to push forward with divorce and detaching. You cannot waffle anymore. Its go time. If you string this along any further you will actually do more damage in the long-term. I feel for you I truly do and by all means I hope you understand that I feel like a villain having to put this out there to you. If there were hope or something that gave me any inkling that you could salvage your marriage and keep your family together I would be the first person to tell you to stay and fight contrary to what I may dole out in my advice to others. I would rather see a success story, but I am also realistic and I will not tell someone what they want to hear. I will always tell someone what they need to hear.

I will chime in again later on. There is a lot more to digest and I do not want my intent or words, or anything misconstrued. I am here to help you. I strongly urge to keep using this board as a resource as you continue on with your journey. Make sure to set yourself up with a support network...making this board a part of it.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Butane]

I'd like to jump in with a comment, having followed this thread with interest.

So far, your wife is behaving the same way she has in the past. That is to be expected. She wants YOU to also behave the same way you have in the past, by giving in.

You can't control her actions. You can however control yours. Since you feel you are really ready for change this time, you could extend her a non negotiable offer... for example, therapeutic separation with her in weekly DBT therapy - after 6 months you can meet to discuss the future. In that 6 months, you both work on yourselves, promise to not see other people, and have low contact.

If she becomes serious about change and a new partnership you will see the start of that. If you see no change, you can make a final decision.

Change is a long, slow process. I've been working on it with my H for over 18 months, and we still dont live together again. I remain hopeful, but I'm so far along in my own healing that I know if it does not work out, I will survive.

You said you love her... if she demonstrated a commitment to change over 6 months, and you saw the start of real improvement, would you want to continue the marriage?

You are in the driver's seat at the moment. You can set the conditions.

[MisterT]

SC and Butane, you’ve given me a lot to think about tonight.  SC - thanks for telling me what I need to hear.   I’m going to process all of this and get back online with my thoughts tomorrow. I can’t thank you all enough.

One final question for today - the idea of a therapeutic separation has come up twice today and I’ve never heard of that until now. I’d like to hear more.  Pros / cons?  I’m being very cautious not to do anything that might jeopardize my case for custody -1/2 or more. Does a 6 month therapeutic separation hurt my chances for custody in any way?  I‘ll ask my lawyer too but curious who here may have experience.

Thanks to everyone for the help today. Merry Christmas!

MR.T

[once removed]

hi MisterT,

i moved your thread here to the Bettering board.

i understand you dont want to boomerang again. i think its evident that wouldnt be for the best.

Detaching is more for members who are deep into the stages of divorce, or at least a month out of the relationship. so long as you are living with your wife, exploring your options, and things like therapeutic separations, it would be a good idea to get feedback here (lots of members on this board are exploring those things, though you may want to pose legal questions on the Family Law board), and learn the tools. i wish i had had them all throughout my breakup process, they can really come in handy.

the idea of a therapeutic separation has come up twice today and I’ve never heard of that until now.

a therapeutic separation is, generally, a last ditch move to restore a relationship. it has had success in that for some. to my knowledge, it has no bearing on custody, its way of creating space, with agreed boundaries, to do some healing when regular proximity or living together is inhibiting that.

you can learn more about therapeutic separations here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686

who brought up the idea? how do you feel about it?