Going back to an ex with undiagnosed bpd - does it ever work out?

[s9999]

Hello, I'm new here!

I'm pretty sure that my ex has BPD, and if not then definitely some traits of BPD. The relationship was a rollercoaster and the breakup was an even more maddening rollercoaster. I'll be happy to give details, but I'm trying to keep this somewhat brief. Anyway, In the past week I've read quite a bit about BPD and other personality disorders, and while I'm not a mental health professional, everything I read about BPD fits her like a glove. Other disorders don't really fit her. It is amazing how accurate are testimonies of people's relationship with a pwBPD fit the turmoil of our relationship. Some quotes and situations match almost verbatim. The only thing that maybe doesn't fit exactly right is the idealization. It was definitely there but not exactly the way I've seen it described. The other thing is that the devaluation started within a couple of weeks, and she never tried to hide it.

Anyway, as I've been educating myself on the disorder, I've grown quite empathetic of her. I now understand that her toxic and manipulative behavior, and the awful things that she said were the result of deep seated emotional pain. And not only that, but it was all done out of fear that I will abandon her. I also understand now that the way we communicated wasn't very helpful for people with BPD. I always tried to validate her feelings, but I often found myself defending and justifying my actions and getting dragged into her logic.

My dilemma is this: I've been reading about the disorder and have been thinking about how, if we got back together, I could incorporate what I learned. I now have a new perspective on her behavior and anger so maybe I can deal with it better and roll with the punches. On the other hand, she does not have a new perspective on the situation. So I can't tell if my efforts will be for naught. What were others' experiences: is it a fool's errand to date someone who most likely has BPD but is unaware of it? 

I'd like to point out that I myself have some issues with OCD and anxiety (she does too, fwiw), and I wouldn't be surprised if I have some co-dependency traits. However, I've been in individual therapy for quite some time working on these matters. She just started going to therapy a couple of weeks ago, so even if she gets diagnosed, she has a long way to go. I also feel a little uncomfortable knowing this secret about her that she's not privy to. It feels a bit manipulative on my end. Of course, I will never tell her that I suspect she has BPD since it's not my place to say and I am not a therapist.

Lastly, since the relationship was pretty young when it ended, if we did get back together and then break up again for whatever reason, will that cause her even more harm?

Thanks!

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[2Loyal2Long]

Hi and welcome, I’m new here as well.  I have to commend you on getting here so soon and working on your own stuff.  For all the marriage therapy I and uBPDh (separated) went to NO therapist could figure him out and my lack of knowledge contributed to 16 years of rewarding unbecoming dysfunctional behavior.  I’ve been thawing out these last six months and got a therapist who clued me in.  It’s a heartbreaking disorder but is treatable only if the person wants to get better for him/herself.

Educating yourself isn’t manipulative, it’s self preservation.  There’s a Tools section and more information on this sight.  No two situations are completely identical but there are similar traits you will probably connect with on different posts.

Congratulations on working on codependency, it’s taken me a 16 year spin in a blender to see that my tolerating his power, control, and emotional abuse only gave him the green light.  I’m learning everything I can so I can take care of myself.

Learn as much as possible, decide what your deal breakers are, take really good care of yourself (being in a relationship with a BPD is emotionally and physically exhausting), and set firm but loving boundaries.

There will be more folks along to welcome you soon with more experience.  You’re definitely in the right place.  Again, welcome.

[s9999]

Thank you, and thank you for saying that educating myself is really just self-preservation and not manipulative.

I would still love to hear from others what it's like to be in a relationship with a person who most likely has BPD but is undiagnosed. Or even hearing what it's like to be with someone who's actually diagnosed with BPD. Or put it another way, is it possible to have a normative relationship with a pwBPD? One where there's mutual respect and admiration, where you're each other's best friend and confidant? Are relationships with people who suffer from the disorder fundamentally different from relationships between two people without BPD?

I'm asking because everything I read makes it seem like the person without BPD has to make a lot of adjustments to their otherwise normative behavior and ways of communication. The non-BPD person will have to deal with a lot of unjustified anger towards them and just let it roll off their back. It seems like it requires the non-BPD person to almost be a sort of a caretaker for the person with BPD, and that's all fine as long as there are also the components of a normative relationship in there.

Thanks again!

[Ozzie101]

Hi there, s9999! I'd like to join 2Loyal in welcoming you to the family!

2Loyal is right. Self-education is not manipulative. It's smart. If this relationship should reignite (or if you should find yourself in another BPD relationship -- which is not uncommon, by the way) what you've learned can be extremely valuable. My H doesn't have a diagnosis either and he has no idea I suspect BPD. I don't tell him because I know it wouldn't go over well. But I, too, struggled a bit with the secrecy. I just know that while it might feel "wrong," it's actually the right thing to do.

is it possible to have a normative relationship with a pwBPD? One where there's mutual respect and admiration, where you're each other's best friend and confidant?

Yes. Part of the time. But you always have to be aware that those times are, sadly, temporary. At some point, the down-swing of the cycle will come back. Having the tools and communication skills can do a lot to improving the bad times -- to lessening their intensity, frequency and duration -- but they will still happen. The key is in knowing how to handle it and in building up your relationship in the good times.

If your loved one with BPD doesn't get therapy (the right kind of therapy), this isn't something that's going to go away. Even with intensive therapy, it will always be there.

Here's an article you might want to read:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

Every relationship is different. In some cases, the relationship is relatively stable, with the occasional blip of emotional dysregulation. In others, there are sudden swings with rage, physical violence, suicide attempts and police involvement. Those are extremes but there can be anything in between.

In my case, I've been married to my uBPDh for three years. I first came here a little over a year ago when I learned about BPD through the book Stop Walking on Eggshells. Early this year, I reached a real breaking point and was on the verge of leaving my marriage. That was a turning point. My H started really knuckling down to his anger management therapy and made some very real, positive changes. Our relationship is much better.

However, it is still not a normal relationship. He still has emotional dysregulations -- though he handles them better and doesn't lash out at me much anymore. There's still a lot of uncertainty. On any given day, I never know when or if something will trigger him and bring on hours of ranting. When my SS's school made a minor change to their uniform policy, H went into a virtual spiral over it that lasted for three hours. Three hours of ranting. Over SS having to wear a belt to school. I'm still working on learning how to respond or how to disengage and I am making progress.

That said, most of the time, H and I have a great time together. For me, it is worth it to try. But the frequency and nature of the "normative relationship" varies person-to-person. And depends on timing. Lately, thanks to a number of stressful situations and the holidays, it's been more difficult with my H.

You have to learn new ways of listening. New ways of speaking. New ways of understanding the other person. You have to be able to stay calm and centered and to have a great deal of emotional strength.

It's not for everyone. But, for many here, it is possible.

As 2Loyal did, I'd encourage you to read as much as possible around the boards. That will give you an idea of the variations in BPD relationships and what they can be like. And what it takes to be in one.

I hope that helps you a little bit. Keep posting!

[s9999]

Thank you! This is helpful and good to know.

The link you posted talks about firm boundaries and not tolerating abusive treatment. But what does that look like? For instance, within 2-3 weeks of dating, my ex looked through my phone and journal when I left the room for a minute. She also stalked me on social media and scrutinized who I follow and what posts I like. Mind you, I don't follow models or sex workers (not that there's something wrong in doing that), but I do follow some women who are funny and talented. These things are obvious invasions of privacy and boundary crossings, but at the time it happened I didn't register them as such. I'm not sure if gaslighting is the right term here, but she immediately turned these things against me. She literally said "I looked through your phone, who's X?" (X being a female friend) It's almost like I didn't have a moment to gather myself and tell her that it is messed up that she looked through my phone, and instead I found myself having to explain that X is a friend (and she has a boyfriend!) and that there's nothing going on between us. She never believed any of it and later on asked me to see all of my communications with my friend, but of course I did not give in to that. Same thing happened with my journal - she admitted to looking through it and then immediately asked about an entry I wrote about her.

It actually took me a couple of weeks to realize that both these things were invasions or privacy and a severe lack of respect for my boundaries. I know I didn't tell her "these are my boundaries, please don't cross them", but I thought it was obvious. She actually told me that she looked through exes phones in the past and that it's not something she wants to do again, but there we were.

So what do I do in situations like that? How can I take a moment to register that a boundary was crossed, point it out to her, and then reinforce the boundary? How do I disengage from such conversations where I find myself having to justify and defend my actions, or even my boundaries. To that point - do I need to explain why a boundary is in place or do I just need to clearly state the boundary and hope that she accepts it?

Lastly, abusive behavior. This mostly came after we broke, but she said some really terrible things to me. If we were to get back together - what do I do when that happens again? Do I leave the relationship? I've never experienced someone talking to me this way, definitely not a romantic partner (or an ex), so I don't know what "not tolerating" it actually looks like if I also want to continue my relationship with her.

[Ozzie101]

Sometimes it does take a little time to register. There have been many things my H has done or said where I was so stunned in the moment, or so caught up in trying to catch up and make sense of it that it wasn't until later that I thought, "Hey. Wait a minute..." The sudden emotional swings, the "way outside the realm of acceptable behavior" actions, all can leave a Non feeling bewildered and struggling to figure out which way is up. Especially if the pwBPD is on a tear and doesn't give you a moment to think.

If you need a moment, you need to find a way to take it. It may take trial and error because not everything works for every person or relationship.

One thing that will help you is to work on you. Work on your sense of calm. Have you read anything about Wisemind (https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind)? It's about really being in-tune with yourself, your feelings and what's going on.

I've had to work a lot on my own sense of calm and being centered. My therapist recommended putting both feet on the floor, hands on thighs, and slowly tapping, alternating hands -- left, right, left, right -- and focusing on the sensation, breathing, counting. You may not be able to do something like that in every instance but if you can center yourself, focus on what you're feeling and thinking, and letting some of your rational mind in, you may notice a difference in how you respond. The more you can remain calm and in control of yourself, the more likely your loved one will be to keep from going completely off the deep end. I know things have improved greatly with my H partly because I no longer panic or go into extreme anxiety mode when he starts running off the rails.

Step away for a few minutes. Say something to her like, "Babe, I can tell this is very important to you. It's important to me, too. I need to take a few minutes to think over what you've said. I'm going to get a cup of coffee/walk around the block/use the bathroom and will be back in x minutes and we can talk." Then leave. Come back when you said. Is that something you think might work? How do you think she would respond?

One thing about boundaries: You don't even have to tell the other person what your boundaries are. You can just decide for yourself. And no explanation is required. That said, yes, you can tell her what they are and how you will respond should she cross the line. That depends on the people and on the boundaries. The key is to decide what those are and what your reaction will be if they're crossed.

Use communication techniques like SET (Support Empathy Truth -- https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0). Don't JADE (Justify Argue Defend Explain -- https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0). Particularly when she's accusing you of something. Don't lose sight of the main point: She violated your trust and your privacy. The more you try to explain yourself, the more you're basically justifying her breach and also ignoring and, in a way, permitting, her behavior.

If she becomes verbally abusive, leave the room or the house if necessary.
We have a couple of items on conflict and leaving here:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

No one should have to tolerate verbal abuse. I did for a while and you'll find that many people here have as well. It doesn't do you or her any good. Once a pwBPD is really triggered and is in a major dysregulation, the communication tools usually no longer work for the moment. The key to a BPD relationship is building up the communication and the relationship in the calm times so those rages become fewer, farther between, and less intense.

All this takes a lot of practice.

How did you respond when she said terrible things to you?

Again, I'm throwing a lot at you, so take your time looking and thinking.

[s9999]

These links are all very helpful, thank you! I've gone through some and will keep reading more later.

How did you respond when she said terrible things to you?

So the thing with my ex is that in person it was relatively easy to converse with her. She was capable of hearing me, particularly when I validated her feelings (which is something I picked up before in a previous relationship). We would still get stuck in loops, but we never got to a situation where her anger was uncontrollable. Later on she told me that she resented that.

It was over text messages where I would experience her splitting and rage. Our texts were never productive and I would ask her to have the conversation on the phone or in person, but always ended up getting dragged in. I still validated her feelings, but I also got defensive a lot of the time, but she said some mean things and got very angry. One time, close to when the relationship ended, she got angry (we were texting) within a matter of seconds. Something triggered her and she went into rage, and quickly ended the conversation by saying "Eff you" (but actually saying the word) and walked away from her phone. My response to her was that I will not tolerate this kind of language, and if she thinks that's ok she'd have to look for somebody else. Something along these lines. We patched things up the next day, but a few days later she broke up with me.

After we broke up she laid onto me multiple times. Some of it was straight up abusive, some of it was just garden variety mean, like "I wish I never met you. This whole thing was a mistake" and then flipping to telling me that she loves me. It's hard to remember how I reacted. I think sometimes I was defensive, and sometimes I just ignored it. A few weeks ago she hit me with pretty harsh abuse. She texted me to tell me "what's wrong with me" at 1:30AM. It was quite literally a projection of herself onto me. It was really hurtful but also surreal and laughable, so I responded with "LOL" and then tried to call her, because, like I said, it was really hurtful and I wanted to understand what's going on (she didn't pick up). The next day she emailed me and was somewhat apologetic in the sense that she justified what she said because she thinks people would benefit from hearing "the truth". I ignored that email completely. A few days later we made an attempt to be friends and it went awry pretty quickly.

A week later I emailed her and her response was very abusive. I responded by trying to explain my position, but that made her even more abusive. Just pure trash. I responded like I did before by laughing at her response, and then I said she's a moron for not knowing how to block my emails (she said before that she's blocking me on everything, including emails but obviously didn't). I'm not proud of that response. That's not how I talk to anyone, definitely not ex romantic partners. But I was so angry that I felt I had to say something back because her email really pushed me over the edge. If I had known at that point that she has BPD maybe I would have ignored it or said something else that isn't insulting.

Later than night around 2am, she emailed me to say that she went on a date with a guy (that night), and long story short, he assaulted her. I felt really bad for her, because no one deserves to be sexually assault, and to make things worse, she was blaming herself for it. I was being kind and told her that she shouldn't blame herself and can talk to me if she needs to. I only mention this because I still can't shake the feeling that her telling me about her assault was manipulative. Just a few hours before she was verbally abusive to me, and now I was someone she wanted warmth and empathy from. I find that behavior emotionally abusive. She didn't get the reaction she wanted from me before, so she told me about how she got assaulted. I still have a lot of empathy for her. No one deserves sexual assault, but I also feel gross that she used her assault to manipulate me.

So there's a range of of things she said to me and a range of abuse I tolerated. And similarly my responses varied too - sometimes I defended and justified, sometimes ignored, one time said something hurtful in response. But I think the end result for her was mostly the same - she eventually got what she wanted out of me one way or another.

If we were to get back together, I will need to be really resilient over texts because that was mostly where her anger came out.


EDIT: Sorry for venturing off-topic. I just needed to vent a little. But still, being able to communicate healthily over texts will be key if we were to get back.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear s999-

Welcome to our community.  You ask what it’s like to be in a rs with a pwBPD (either diagnosed or undiagnosed)... it’s hard.  My BF of over 6 years is undiagnosed as far as I know, although I have an inkling he WAS diagnosed at some point.  He’ll be 62 soon and I’m 62.

Our relationship has some great parts... we are both very young at heart and playful, we love to laugh and have fun; and we’ve been through a LOT in our time together.  He knows I forgive the “unforgivable” and he trusts me like no one else.  That says a lot because he trusts no one.

The scary part for me is that he HATES people and readily admits that.  He would be happy whisking me off to some isolated estate and never seeing anyone except me.  I would suffocate and am petrified of growing old in isolation where he would keep my death a secret because he wouldn’t want to make a phone call!  And I’m only half laughing here. 

It’s a dilemma- he’s recently decided he hates most of my family, but he doesn’t try to stop me from seeing them.  He knows better.

His rages have gotten less violent; ironically since I became more “in touch” with my own anger and found the voice to yell back at him.  Or more like stand up to him... he does not make me cower anymore.  In addition, I explained that just because we have an argument doesn’t mean he needs to end the relationship.  Apparently that was NEWS to him.  It’s a pretty ripe old age to learn that.

My uBPDbf has a horrible snooping problem.  He’s been through my private papers in all of the drawers in my home.  My journal is on my iPad, which has a passcode. 

Here’s my take on the snooping.  IF he happens upon private thoughts that I don’t voluntarily share with him, that’s on him, NOT me.  If he wants to leave me because I’m working through my thoughts, that is beyond my control.  Right?

If he finds a few old letters that my first love sent me when I was 18 or 19, he’ll be hard - pressed to raise that issue with me... what’s he going to say?  “Hey honey, I searched through that cardboard box up in your office closet and found F’s letters from Okinawa.  Why do you still have those?”  Ha!

I know that he’s been through ALL of my photo albums.  He’s really bad at putting things back exactly as they were.

But our phones... neither of us are tethered to our cell phones.  We leave them across the room when we’re together.  He USED to run to mine when a text would come in, but he doesn’t anymore (thankfully).  Tho’ he does still ask who each text is from.   The men I briefly dated before him are now truly gone from my life.  And I was in a LT marriage before that.  And periodically I’ll show him recent photos on my phone and he’ll scroll through... it makes him feel better, so I don’t mind.  Nothing to hide.

When you’re younger, you’ve probably got to pay mind to keeping things “cleaner” on your phone and social media if you’re going to be in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I don’t use social media.

There are VERY difficult challenges to these relationships.  From my perspective, I definitely do NOT get the emotional support I wish for - most of the energy goes to him... HIS needs.  It is what it is.  He is who he is.  Radical Acceptance. 

And when there are difficulties in the relationship, you CANNOT confide details to members of your family.  “Loose lips sink ships”, my friend.  Your family will view the toxicity of this thing and see the erosion of your very soul (IF you don’t take VERY good care of yourself) and BEG you to end it.  They will NOT understand why you keep forgiving and forgiving... and neither will you.  Tell your therapist.  Or the members here.  Or someone else who’s been in a rs with a pwBPD.  But...if you want your family to be welcoming to your partner, censor what you tell them about the painful details.

If I were younger, knowing what I know now would I choose him?  I don’t know.  Probably no...  Probably no... but to him, I am not invisible, not yet anyway.

Sorry so long-winded.  Guess I needed to talk/rant a bit.

Wishing you all the best, whichever way the wind blows you.  But my friend here’s what you do NOT want -

A relationship where she is the wind and you are the wheat.  That my friend, is painful.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Ozzie101]

s9999, my H and I had to make a rule: no serious discussions via text or email. And only by phone when there's no alternative. I'm talking anything beyond "Hey, what's going on? When you stop by the store can you pick up a couple of oranges?"

We found that it's very easy for things to get misconstrued in written form. It's very hard to judge tone, etc.

Also, people tend to be a little different when they're hiding behind words typed on a screen. Think of the comments on videos or postings online. So many people say things they would never say in person.

If you were to get back together with her, do you think this is a rule you could implement?

[s9999]

Thank you for your input, gemsforeyes. This is a lot to take in about what a relationship with my ex could look like.

Ozzie101 - when we were dating I told her that we shouldn't have these conversations over text, but often I found myself getting dragged into them anyway. One time she told me she doesn't like having these conversations in person because she can't go back and read what she or I said. I told her it's ok to take notes on her phone. If we were to get back together, I will definitely try to be stricter about this rule.

I also have to say that reading around the forum I'm finding out that BPD seems to manifest itself differently in different people. Some of it seems to do with comorbidity of other issues, I think. Some situations sound quite scary, and it makes me think whether or not my ex's condition could get worse over time and lead to situations like that. Has this been anyone's experience? That a person with BPD got worse over time? Again, obviously therapy is a must, and my ex has started going to therapy, but I don't think she's been diagnosed with BPD.

Lastly, is it possible to take it slow at first with a pwBPD? How can I define those boundaries and guidelines to her if we get back together?

[Ozzie101]

Lastly, is it possible to take it slow at first with a pwBPD? How can I define those boundaries and guidelines to her if we get back together?

I would think it would be. It would just depend on how receptive she is and if you can both get on the same page.

I'd think through what you want the relationship to look like. What pace you'd be comfortable with. Really think it through carefully. Then have a conversation with her (in a calm, neutral time and setting). Use a technique like DEARMAN (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0). Be open and empathetic to what she has to say. Compromise if necessary, but only as much as you're comfortable with.

You can't control what she wants or what she does. But you can decide what will work for you and what you're willing to do or not do.

If you can both get and stay on the same page, then, yes, it would be possible.