Explosion of a two year old/60 year old

[Depression = 72% of members]

Tonight, I saw a two-year-old in full tantrum. He wasn't getting what he wanted, so he was acting out. "GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT". His eyes full of rage, and hate. What was I guilty of? It was the same old story, repackaged, but the same. He accused me of putting 3,000 miles on the car in 6 weeks. He asked me where I had been driving. We sometimes drive together, but my routes are always the same. To my kids, to appointments, to the store. Pretty mundane stuff. Heres' the clincher, he accused me of lying and being up to something 'no good'. He said that the math didn't lie and that I was holding something back. I tried to the best of my ability to think of how the extra miles appeared and refused to buy into his accusations. I wouldn't admit to something I wasn't doing, so he got angry. I don't know if the mileage he is using is even accurate as he has a tendency to elaborate on everything. I do know the basis for his madness. He's jealous that I have been going to see my son, who is experiencing major depression. The other day, I went with my son to adopt a new puppy. Now, my husband is jealous, of both of them. It isn't about the mileage on the car, it's about me having the freedom to go.

If he had it his way, I'd be home 24/7 and ask him permission to use the bathroom. His memory of past events is not accurate and he sometimes makes up stories to suit the way he wants the story to be. Regardless, tonight I am painted black and devalued. He said he doesn't want to talk to me tomorrow or ever. That can mean anything from a day or two to divorce. I can't talk to him, although I tried to validate his feelings and offered to keep track of my mileage on a daily basis. That wasn't good enough, and now I'm being punished.

I've known that he has BPD for about three years now, after months of pushing away, leaving, serving divorce papers, coming back, pushing away, serving divorce papers and coming back. That cost him about $15,000. I've always known that he is capable of leaving and that is his go-to. I also know that since he has done it once, chances are that he will do it again. He will tell me things like, he's in prison with our marriage, and that it would cost him to go and cost him to stay. I'm not quite sure why I would want to continue with this abuse. This seems to be the question, as when he is not in a cycle, he's a great guy, that tells me that he loves me, etc. But who is the real person? The horrible, mean two-year-old foaming at the mouth, or the docile agreeable 60-year-old, that I want to spend the rest of my life with. I think the real person is somewhere stuck in-between.

In the devaluation stage, I believe that he does want out. I think he would rather be alone than to be with me, as I remind him of pain, his pain. He doesn't trust me, nor has he ever. I know this is a big problem, and I don't think it will magically change. He doesn't trust anyone. I'm someone he can bat around, and take his anger out on. That's the position I fill with him. He blames me for everything possible that is wrong with his life. It makes me feel terrible, and yet I stay.

When he was yelling at me, with those eyes of rage, I wanted to run away. I wanted to get into the car and drive to safety.  I also know that if I do, it will set him up for further dysregulation. I married a mad man. He will say that he is tired of arguing with me and that's all we have done for 6 years. Meanwhile, it is always his argument, and always his rage. I'm just so tired of all of this. I want him to react like a normal person would, and sit down with me to discuss the mileage on the car and come up with a solution. Instead, I am accused of being unfaithful. I've heard that when someone accuses you of being dishonest, its a reflection of what they see in themselves.

So who knows what tomorrow will bring? Yesterday he brought me flowers, today heartache and ...who knows? 

[loyalwife]

Tonight, I saw a two-year-old in full tantrum. He wasn't getting what he wanted, so he was acting out. "GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT". His eyes full of rage, and hate. What was I guilty of? It was the same old story, repackaged, but the same. He accused me of putting 3,000 miles on the car in 6 weeks. He asked me where I had been driving. We sometimes drive together, but my routes are always the same. To my kids, to appointments, to the store. Pretty mundane stuff. Heres' the clincher, he accused me of lying and being up to something 'no good'. He said that the math didn't lie and that I was holding something back. I tried to the best of my ability to think of how the extra miles appeared and refused to buy into his accusations. I wouldn't admit to something I wasn't doing, so he got angry. I don't know if the mileage he is using is even accurate as he has a tendency to elaborate on everything. I do know the basis for his madness. He's jealous that I have been going to see my son, who is experiencing major depression. The other day, I went with my son to adopt a new puppy. Now, my husband is jealous, of both of them. It isn't about the mileage on the car, it's about me having the freedom to go.

If he had it his way, I'd be home 24/7 and ask him permission to use the bathroom. His memory of past events is not accurate and he sometimes makes up stories to suit the way he wants the story to be. Regardless, tonight I am painted black and devalued. He said he doesn't want to talk to me tomorrow or ever. That can mean anything from a day or two to divorce. I can't talk to him, although I tried to validate his feelings and offered to keep track of my mileage on a daily basis. That wasn't good enough, and now I'm being punished.

I've known that he has BPD for about three years now, after months of pushing away, leaving, serving divorce papers, coming back, pushing away, serving divorce papers and coming back. That cost him about $15,000. I've always known that he is capable of leaving and that is his go-to. I also know that since he has done it once, chances are that he will do it again. He will tell me things like, he's in prison with our marriage, and that it would cost him to go and cost him to stay. I'm not quite sure why I would want to continue with this abuse. This seems to be the question, as when he is not in a cycle, he's a great guy, that tells me that he loves me, etc. But who is the real person? The horrible, mean two-year-old foaming at the mouth, or the docile agreeable 60-year-old, that I want to spend the rest of my life with. I think the real person is somewhere stuck in-between.

In the devaluation stage, I believe that he does want out. I think he would rather be alone than to be with me, as I remind him of pain, his pain. He doesn't trust me, nor has he ever. I know this is a big problem, and I don't think it will magically change. He doesn't trust anyone. I'm someone he can bat around, and take his anger out on. That's the position I fill with him. He blames me for everything possible that is wrong with his life. It makes me feel terrible, and yet I stay.

When he was yelling at me, with those eyes of rage, I wanted to run away. I wanted to get into the car and drive to safety.  I also know that if I do, it will set him up for further dysregulation. I married a mad man. He will say that he is tired of arguing with me and that's all we have done for 6 years. Meanwhile, it is always his argument, and always his rage. I'm just so tired of all of this. I want him to react like a normal person would, and sit down with me to discuss the mileage on the car and come up with a solution. Instead, I am accused of being unfaithful. I've heard that when someone accuses you of being dishonest, its a reflection of what they see in themselves.

So who knows what tomorrow will bring? Yesterday he brought me flowers, today heartache and ...who knows? 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[2020]

Wow! That is pretty intense and I am sorry you are on the receiving end of this. I have to say from my perspective, it seems very typical. I experience much the same from my partner. I am in the doghouse myself right now. It's tough. I am trying not to buy into it.

But what is it I read about them mellowing out in older age. I am 53; my partner 46. We have know each other for perhaps 12 years now and been involved like this for 6. I often hear how I have wasted six years of her life! What exactly has she done for me in the six years? We bend over backwards for these people and will rarely get a thank you. They will instead go around and tell anyone who will listen how abusive we are to them! Your writing suggests it may not necessarilly get better over time. I am not sure about you but right now I am resigning myself to the fact this will never be a 'normal' relationship.

I laughed aloud when you wrote "I married a mad man"! I can certainly relate to that! Let's hope he turns up with cap in hand tomorrow and a huge bunch of roses. You just never know.

[bigbear007]

As someone with BPD myself, and I am not suggesting this may work for everyone, the individual really has to want to change and depending on how long they have been aware of the condition and how long it was left untreated can and probably will determine to some extend their ability to do this but... The only way I have found so far that I can somewhat deal with things, is to try and ignore my emotional responses to things - pretty hard to do. But use more rational and logical intellectual thought processes when in situations where I split or devalue someone. Like I am currently in a devaluation stage with my current wife, I have been married previously and had several long term relationships prior to that where I was unaware of the BPD. So made some pretty horrible decisions and hurt people without A. even really knowing and B. having pretty much no empathy for my actions. Obviously now I know that this is a pattern and is not healthy nor normal. So I try to disconnect my actions from my emotions in the moment, and then go back to the emotions when I am alone and try to work on handling and controlling them.

I rationally feel bad when I think about it but don't actually have any emotional response of feelings of feeling bad if that makes sense.

I found the following question and first answer quite useful for myself and also for my wife to read. You may have already read it but if not hopefully it can be of some use, getting people with BPD to read this could be helpful but as most of us are probably aware, it needs to seem like it is their decision and not you forcing it on them or they will more than likely split on you.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-inevitable-that-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder-will-devalue-those-they-idealized

[bigbear007]

Oh one last thing that I found was almost eye opening for someone with BPD, probably sounds stupid to a 'normal' person but was an activity where you draw a long straight line with arrows pointing in opposite directions. Under one arrow you write 'all good' and the other arrow 'all bad',
the task is to try and find things in every day life, situations, things in general that fall directly under one or the other. When using rational and logical thought only to answer these questions the reality is that hardly anything is all good or all bad, despite obvious things, horrific crimes etc.

It was just something very simple which opened my eyes to the way my brain processes things and when I split, its almost like my memory forgets anything good that ever happened, like amnesia which is what allows this all good or all bad false realisation to occur. 

[loyalwife]

2020:

Let's hope he turns up with a cap in hand tomorrow and a huge bunch of roses.

He is threatening to end his life today, and that if I report him, he will deny that he said it. I've spent hours in the past online to Suicide Prevention because I was afraid he would follow through. Now I sit with this on my shoulders. A big part of me wants to give him his freedom as I'm the one standing between what he wants and needs in life. And the other part tells me to wait until he comes back to baseline. Oh Boy. Then wait until something triggers him again.

BPD can get better over time, but not without work. I'm not sure that age can change it. In some cases, I believe it may get worse until, at some point, the pwBPD opts out — either of life or the relationship. My husband has failed relationships in every area of his life, family, and friends. As we get older, our relationships become more important. Unfortunately, if a pwBPD hasn't any viable links, then life pretty much sucks. They push and push until nobody with any sense of values is left. I refuse to let him control me to the point that I no longer have those I love around me. No, this isn't a healthy relationship, as we walk on the thin rope of having to watch out for danger. The desire to have a healthy relationship is one-sided and just impossible. You've spent a lot of time in your relationship, so you understand what I'm saying. I told my husband that I wouldn't leave him because I loved him, and that mileage on a car didn't constitute a divorce. But to him, I'm no longer relevant. He said he didn't need me for anything. If he left today, it would be different than it was in the past. I'd not stand in his way, as I love him enough to let him go.

[loyalwife]

big bear007

Thank you for your response. It's interesting to get the view from a person with BPD. Also, the link you sent was informative and something I hadn't considered before. It makes sense because the goal is to fill them up, which means that my purpose in the relationship is to do just that. My husband has told me today that he isn't happy and that I give too much attention to my kids. He said that I cost him too much and that he didn't want to look at me anymore. I also tried the line test with him. When asked about 'all good' and 'all bad' he said, "You can drop a poisonous chemical into a bucket, and the water that is good will now be all bad. That's what you've done to me." He sees nothing good in his life right now. This did prove to me that he isn't able to see clearly and that has forgotten any joy. Including that I may have value.

I struggle with this, as it makes me feel worthless. Any words to the wise from a person that experiences BPD, on the best approach during an episode? I'm giving him space and staying away. Give him his way?

[blacksymphony]

I’m going through exactly the same thing. Your words really hit home. I’ve heard also that “prison” marriage term, the blames on how everything that’s going on with him is because of me, how he’s tired of arguing with me and can’t live the rest of his life arguing (his) arguments with me (I have never started an argument with him once), and he tells me constantly that he doesn’t trust anyone, including myself. My husband can be the sweetest ever but when he’s having a day then I’m the worst person and he isn’t happy because of me. I’ve ruined his life. I’ve poisoned him. I’ve been accused of being unfaithful. I’ve been accused of lying to him.  Although I care for him and help him financially as he isn’t able to hold a job. He sees this stuff as materialistic and that they don’t matter. But when he is in a good day he feels so guilty for everything I’ve done for him and will stay cleaning and helping me until 3 am. I too see that I might be in his way, but I am afraid what will happen if I let him go; not to me (I am not selfish and I would be much happier to see him smile then to see him with me) but to him. He has pushed everyone away and I’m the only person by his side. I ask him if he will be happier without me and he says he doesn’t know,m. He will tell me how I’ve done so much for him then the next minute how I’ve destroyed him. I know it’s not myself that’s on his way, but rather his BPD and if I let him go I’m afraid the next person might not understand or even worse do something terrible... I would let him go in a heartbeat if I knew it would make him happy but I’m so afraid that that won’t be the case so I beg him to say instead : (

[loyalwife]

blacksymphony

I get what you mean about 'staying' or 'leaving'. Today was a repeat of every bad day with my husband. Since he had blocked my number, I have gone to him in the office to talk. Today I heard something I hadn't heard before. Although he has threatened suicide, today he was explicit. I called a therapist and a hotline for support. He told me that he wouldn't ever admit to anyone his plan and that this was his revenge. He said it could happen tomorrow, next week or next month. He described the action to the detail and that he thought about it every day. I'm feeling numb. After hearing this and trying to get him to get help, I decided to give him what he asked for and told him that he was right about me and that I was not a considerate person. His face lit up, and he said: "Well, you finally get it". He said that he would delay killing himself until I was out of school. I can't do a thing, except hope and pray he doesn't go through with it. He asked me to go to dinner. I just sat there as if my blood were drained. When we came back home, he fell asleep on the floor in his office. He's on his way back to baseline. That just means that tomorrow, this whole argument is my fault and that he merely wanted to work, and I disturbed him. His threat of suicide has changed something in me. I finally realize that our relationship is all about him. He doesn't care what his death would do to me. He simply cares about himself.
 

[bigbear007]

big bear007

Thank you for your response. It's interesting to get the view from a person with BPD. Also, the link you sent was informative and something I hadn't considered before. It makes sense because the goal is to fill them up, which means that my purpose in the relationship is to do just that. My husband has told me today that he isn't happy and that I give too much attention to my kids. He said that I cost him too much and that he didn't want to look at me anymore. I also tried the line test with him. When asked about 'all good' and 'all bad' he said, "You can drop a poisonous chemical into a bucket, and the water that is good will now be all bad. That's what you've done to me." He sees nothing good in his life right now. This did prove to me that he isn't able to see clearly and that has forgotten any joy. Including that I may have value.

I struggle with this, as it makes me feel worthless. Any words to the wise from a person that experiences BPD, on the best approach during an episode? I'm giving him space and staying away. Give him his way?

Yeah the line test is meant to be with non extreme, normal every day situations and past experiences. So he is just drawing extremes in order to confirm and validate his thinking.

Too much attention on the kids is a clear sign that he is wanting more attention - also like a child acting out because he is not getting his way. It is very important that you have and set certain boundaries for things which are and are not ok.

Advice for when he is having an episode, it can be hit and miss as everyone reacts differently and no two BPD people are exactly the same. I would suggest giving him space, but not always telling him that is what you are doing, give him the opportunity to miss you and feel like you aren't putting up with this behavior. Ultimately if he is in therapy and still showing zero signs of improvement after a certain period of time you have to decide if this is what you want moving forwards and if it is healthy.

[WorksNeverDone]

Loyalwife and Blacksymphony,
Your stories are so heartbreaking and so familiar.  My BPDw is very high functioning.  She also feels trapped in our marriage, but over the years has expressed the following to me.  Maybe there is a similar, unexpressed tension that is underlying your situations?
She has distilled that refrain of "this marriage is like a prison" down to "Without you I would whither and die, but if I'm limited to you, I'm just surviving and not living."  Feeling trapped between losing what she has and giving up what she "wants" drives her suicidal cycles.
She too has pushed away all of her other relationships.  I've offered to let her go to be with the people who would enable her to "feel alive" (with the condition that I would want a divorce so I can pursue the monogamous relationship that I would want to have).  But she wants me and "them."  She can't bring herself to choose to leave the person who does the work, pays the bills, holds her when she's sad, carries the daily responsibilities when she is traveling or emotionally paralyzed, and who knows her (good/bad/ugly) better than anyone and still hasn't abandoned her.  But she can't choose to deny herself the fleeting "thrill-of-pursuit" relationships that make her feel alive/vibrant.  She realizes that the other relationships would simply be temporary, because as soon as the initial "pursuit" game is over, they would become normal "boring" relationships.  So she attempts to relieve that tension by venting all of her negativity/frustration at me.

The theme I hear in your stories is that your significant others have only you as their support structure.  My guess is that subconsciously, they feel trapped by the fact that you are the person who hasn't abandoned them and the knowledge that if they leave, they will push everyone else away.  But they are also looking for a release from all of the shame, anger, frustration and rage that they feel.  Since you are the only one who has stayed, they look to you for that release.  As the non-BPD partner, we try to be encouraging, upbuilding and to keep peace in the house.  Those behaviors don't provide a release for their tension, so their negativity spills over.  Since pwBPD have their emotions regulated externally, they are projecting their negativity onto you.
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend "Loving someone with Borderline Personality Disorder."  It does a beautiful job explaining the reality that pwBPD live in and why they dysregulate the way they do.

[loyalwife]

Hi WorksNeverDone,

You are onto something. I agree that my husband feels stuck between me, and what he wants. I've gone with the flow, and it hasn't helped matters much. Instead, it's fueled his fire of being unhappy. There was a day or two between his episodes, but today he's back into it. I think there's a lot going on work-wise, and he's feeling pushed.  Earlier, he yelled at me for nothing, and I turned off my phone. Later, when I came home he got mad because he didn't like the look on my face. He has dropped hints that he wants to buy another car. He has somewhere around 12 or so and complains of not having enough money. I watch him spend money every day on his cars, and he defies me to say anything. I was guilty of probably not smiling, but I'm only human. I think he was looking for a reaction of some sort, so he had an excuse to leave.  So, he packed his bags and he's gone tonight.

Heres, my fear. He will do what he said he was, and commit suicide. I sent him a text and asked him to let me know he was okay, so I wouldn't worry. I've been advised to call for a welfare check if he is missing for any amount of time. He took his laptop, so that is a good sign, but he was extremely agitated when he left.

Perhaps he has come to the end of our relationship, and sees that I am no longer as controllable as he thought or past my 'freshness date'. He must hate me. This doesn't feel like love.

His prison is money. He wants to be a single person, but can't because he would lose too much money divorcing me. He 'feels alive' when he spending money. I'm standing in the way of him having lots more cars, and going to exotic places and I have to believe with someone else.  At least that is how he feels at the moment. When he comes back to baseline, it will be completely different. He will talk about retirement, and buying a new home. The opposite of how he feels right now.

I've been married to this BPD for five years. I've known about his BPD for about three years, and have stuck it out. Now, I've made a hard decision. He follows through with his therapy that is scheduled in a week, or I make other arrangements. I'm so tired of being pushed to the brink of nonexistence. No human deserves that.

[WorksNeverDone]

Your situation is certainly nightmarish.  Why should you have to force the decision on someone who is mistreating you?  It's logical that if someone is miserable with you, they should respectfully decide to end the relationship for themselves, like an adult.
But that's assigning logic to the illogical.
My situation is similar.  Instead of having more money and cars, my wife wants more romantic partners and the freedom to come and go as she pleases.
Instead of giving up money in a divorce, she would be giving up having a "home base" where the responsibility is handled for her, sleeping in my bed, cuddling, watching movies as a family in front of the fire, etc.  She's smart enough to know that a romantic fling would eventually lose the passion and she would be stuck with someone who is not as "good" as I am...but she can't give up the feeling of vitality that comes from new romance.  So she has tried to bully me into giving her both.
I've set my boundary that pursuing other romance comes at the cost of our marriage and that, while I don't resent her, our relationship would necessarily change.
Similar to your BPDh, that "trapped" feeling drives a lot of her suicidal ideations.
If you haven't read it, I would re-recommend "Loving someone with Borderline Personality Disorder."  I'm just finishing the chapters on handling pwBPD who are suicidal or make suicidal threats.  It was very informative and lays out very concrete recommendations for how to handle them.  At the end of the day, you can't control his actions.

[loyalwife]

WorksNeverDone,
   Thank you for the book recommendation. I've got it ready to download and will read tonight. I can't force someone to do something they really don't want to do, including feeling better. The therapist contacted us today and had an earlier opening. The day started out in a bad place for my husband, so thought the timing was perfect. With the Coronavirus looming in our home state, he has gone into a fear mode and is afraid of dying. Granted, I have as much a chance as he does, but it's not losing me he fears.  His paranoia has increased, and it's escalated. Before he was to go to the appointment, I reminded him that the therapist wanted him to bring his MPPI test with him. That caused him to panic as he wasn't planning on the therapist knowing that much about him.  It threw me for a loop, as usual, and I reminded him that we had talked about it before. Instead, he chose to go back to his resentment of three years ago, and how I had poisoned his life. I went inside and wrote him a letter and brought it to him to read. He refused to read it and said that he didn't want to, and ripped it up. He told me that there was a side of him that I hadn't seen before and that he was capable of being extremely mean. This scares me, and that is what it is intended to do. How far can he push me? Right now, I have such a bad migraine, I'm having trouble writing this. I need to feel not alone. At this moment, my husband doesn't care if I live or die. This is known.
     He was happy for a few days this weekend when he bought another car. He's spending tons of money and time on these cars and yet complains that his business work isn't getting done. I'm noticing his lack of focus, and have just ignored, being careful not to instigate another circular argument with him that will allow for his abuse.
     I'll try to see straight here soon, and read the book.