Do I have any legal recourse? Part 2

[alleyesonme]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344986.0;all

The closer you get to the initial hearing, the risk grows that a spouse desperate to gain or continue control of the abuser/victim narrative.  You will find out in due time how controlling or entitled or determined your spouse is.  If you can be as prepared and proactive as possible then your process will be "less bad" than otherwise.

Great info here. She actually violated the TRO issued by the judge, and isn't even making an effort to comply. She's already showed her true colors in terms of thinking the world revolves around her and that she doesn't need to fall in line with anything. In terms of who's behaving more reasonably, it's not even close when comparing me to her. I hope that pays off for me.

[alleyesonme]

This is true as you approach any major milestone in the process. My attorney warned me, but I didn't quite believe it until it happened over and over. My ex's attorney would say "we're almost there" in an email, and mine would say "wait and see" to me. And instead of agreeing, there would be something else added to prolong the process. What should have been simple wasn't.

Thanks for sharing. That hasn't happened to me yet, but I'm taking the approach of hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. Wouldn't at all be surprised to see her do this.

[alleyesonme]

While I think we've hit this from another angle in this thread, juju brings up something to think about. We've discussed documentation -- how crucial it is that every interaction with your D's mom is recorded via email, text, or other written format.

Consider adding another layer to your documentation of "I was completely available to spend time with D, and tried to pick her up/emailed xW to coordinate/etc, and I could have done it, but xW was uncooperative"... where that layer has #'s of days/hours that you would have been available... that add up to 50% of the time.

Does that make sense?

Then xW can't claim in court "he never did 50% after D and I moved out, how could he do 50% now" -- the answer, documented, is that you recorded in emails that you had 50% time available and even drove to pick up D (or whatever)... but it was xW obstructing.

Emails might look like "Hi xW, hope you're staying healthy. I will be in the McDonald's parking lot at 3pm on Friday to pick up D in YourTown; I'll have her back at HalfwayPoint on Monday at 10am so you can pick her up. Best, AEOM". Or, "Hi xW, hope all is well. I'll pick up D at 3pm on Friday in YourTown and have her back at Halfway next Friday at 3pm. I'll make sure to have my phone on me. Cheers, AEOM"

Something where it's really clear that all your proposals are for 50/50... because you have 50/50 available. So she can't make the claim juju's friend had to deal with -- "you never did 50/50 so you shouldn't have it now".

I guess this is basically a more detailed version of what we talked about either earlier in this thread, or in your other one -- act "as if" xW were going to cooperate with a PP... so it's on her if you don't get time with your D, and she's shooting herself in the foot.

That's a great way to frame it - thank you. I've more or less been doing this, but my wife continually refuses to give me an overnight, let alone consecutive overnights, or even to allow a visit to last for more than 5 hours. So every time I mention taking our daughter for 3 days, my wife refuses.

What I've done in light of that is to say that I will show up every single day at 9 am at the house they're staying at (which is 3 hours away from me), pick our daughter up and drop her off at 4 or 5 pm, and my wife even refuses that despite not having to drive anywhere for the exchange. Not only does she refuse that, but she doesn't even try to negotiate (ie have me drop her off at 3:00 instead of 4 or 5).

[alleyesonme]

I think these examples show how important it is to have a proactive attorney who is not afraid to go on the offensive.  This is one way that my attorney was very helpful.  Any attempts at stalling or playing victim by my exPDw were quickly squashed.  My attorney would keep pushing forward, and reminded opposing counsel of upcoming court deadlines that we would hold them to. 

In the beginning, he requested a hearing in front of the judge since exPDw and her lawyer had been dragging their feet on submitting financial disclosures, while also attempting to withhold the kids from me.  I remember listening to the phone conference between the judge and attorneys, it got pretty heated.  The judge denied the hearing, and forced us to go to mediation first.  However, it sent a very clear message to the other side that we were moving forward and the games needed to stop.  The result was one mediation session, and a complete settlement within 5 hours.  I was totally floored at the time.  It happened because we went on offense instead of playing defense.

It continues today as well.  The current situation is that my exPDw's behavior has been pretty well neutralized, but she keeps acting out.  When there is an issue, my lawyer contacts her lawyer and the behavior stops.  There are currently a couple issues on the table where my exPDw has been warned that if it happens again we will take action to remove some of her decision making rights.  My lawyer has turned this into a situation where the other side is playing defense now.  The emails I have seen from her lawyer have zero accusations against me, they are mainly attempts to minimize my exPDw's behavior.

That's awesome that your lawyer handled it so well!

I was floored too when I saw that you guys reached a settlement so early in the process. This is an awful process to go through, but I'm glad to hear that you got through the worst part of it so quickly.

[alleyesonme]

It might be worth asking your L point blank how he deals with stonewalling and obstructing, since those are hallmarks of high-conflict cases, too.

Either he is giving your ex some rope to hang herself, or else he is overwhelmed by his case load and tolerating what he perceives to be manageable things to slide.

And if he is allowing things to slide, it might be because he knows how effective he is in court.

I'm a bit cynical at this point about attorneys because n/BPDx was one, so this is my cynicism speaking -- but I sense that narcissism is not uncommon in the legal profession. Especially with litigators. My ex was a former trial attorney and he sure loved the limelight.

If your L has those traits, it might help to phrase things carefully. "I know you're going to knock this out of the park in court, everyone has told me about your strength as a litigator. What's our plan for dealing with any stonewalling or obstructing tactics? She's going to do everything in her power to blow off scheduled hearings. How do you handle that when someone is trying to obstruct you like that?" 

That's a great question, and we haven't discussed that yet. I'll be sure to ask.

Have you seen any particular strategies that work best in that situation?

[juju2]

Hi All.

I don't know if this is appropriate, anyway, you are going for 50-50 shared custody, correct.

So your wife absconded with your child, took your child from her residence.
Where is your daughter going to go to school.?
Where is your wife's legal residence.?
The 50-50 will be difficult considering these questions are unknowns.
I would make up a 50-50 schedule that works for you, with one alternate, and the time driving there should be taken out of your stbxw's 50%.
She fled with your daughter without cause...

The schedule could be friday, sat, Sunday and a Wednesday (Wednesday every other week)..less shuffling back and forth is preferable.  Then present an alternate schedule.  Each schedule could be rotated every 3 months, or every 6 months.
Any and all efforts on your part are showing the court you take this seriously, you care, you are not taking this lying down...

She needs to answer for her irrational behaviour...
Even if she doesn't respond, at least she will know that you intend to be proactive.

All of your child's established health care, living arrangements, base, are at her home, where you live.  She has been traumatized by your wife, needlessly.

Your daughter is being used as a pawn by your stbxw and that is mean, cruel...

If you had acted in a similar fashion you would probably be in jail.

[ForeverDad]

When you seek 50/50, there are two likely factors here:  (1) you are being fair, which should not be a consideration since your spouse has been behaving unfairly, and (2) you are hoping parenting can stop being so lopsided and become equal since both parent could then have equal time.

Problem:  You don't gain many points with the court by trying to be fair.  They will look at who has time to parent (many mothers don't work or work less) and who can pay child support (many fathers earn more income than mothers).  Although it is less automatic these days in some states, many courts default to assigning Primary Parent status to mothers.  (My ex was facing a Threat of DV charge in municipal court and still was able to get temp custody and majority time in a temp order.)  There's a truism I learned here a few years ago:  The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom get credit.

So my advice is to get as much of your history and events mentioned or listed during that first hearing which determines the temp order.  (Bring 3 copies, one for the judge, one for the other side and one for your lawyer.)  For our sort of cases, temp orders issued from that initial brief hearing, sometimes during only a half hour, go on and on until the eventual final decree becomes effective.  For many here it was a year, two years or for a few even later.  (My two temp orders covered more than two years.  Neither the judge, magistrate or lawyers were willing to fix the problems with the temp order.  It seemed they felt, why change it, it's only temporary. )

Now, as for the 50/50 impulse:  That's good, but not enough by itself.  For example, if you have equal rights, then who will decide when you two parents can't agree?  That's why judges often order joint custody but also one parent to be the Primary Parent for major decisions such as school, medical, religion, etc.  Frankly, judges often lean toward mother taking charge of final decisions and dads pay the bills.  (That's great only if the mother is the reasonably normal parent.)  Some have resolved it by settling for one parent to get some major decisions while the other parent gets other major decisions.  Other equal time cases have had the judge assign the more reasonable parent with Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  This way it can still be referred to court or elsewhere if the other parent contests it but at least we can go ahead while the issue is pending.

Here is an excerpt from one of my prior posts.  It was written with the father's perspective here, a mother's presentation would of course differ.  Follow the link for the complete post.

First, list the issues and concerns simply and clearly in writing, including that you seek substantial parenting authority and scheduled parenting time.  Have at least 3 copies with you, one for the court and one for each party.  They may not act on it but it gets the issues "on the record".  In my belief, that's important since you may get a different court official for future hearings.  The court may be reluctant since it seems to try not to put much that is 'actionable' on the record.

Second, try to make a brief statement "on the record" — is it being recorded? — even if only a minute.  Something like... "Your honor, I know some extreme claims have been made but until it became a legal issue bringing us to court, no allegations whatsoever had previously been made.  My concern is that "sour grapes" or "punishment" is unfairly being attempted.  I have been a very involved parent until now.  Any attempts to force supervised visits on me or to limit me to bare minimum parenting are unjustified and unsubstantiated.  I request to remain substantively involved as father and parent to my child.  I do have serious concerns about my spouse's extreme actions and parenting behaviors.  I believe I am the best to provide stable custodial and parenting care.  Should the court be reluctant at this time, then I can work with some sort of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status while we jointly provide care for our child."

Another point, give the parenting issues priority.  That's the focus here, parenting and parenting behaviors.  Any allegations of DV between adults are less connected to parenting concerns since she is an adult.  Don't get sidetracked.

[alleyesonme]

Hi All.

I don't know if this is appropriate, anyway, you are going for 50-50 shared custody, correct.

So your wife absconded with your child, took your child from her residence.
Where is your daughter going to go to school.?
Where is your wife's legal residence.?
The 50-50 will be difficult considering these questions are unknowns.
I would make up a 50-50 schedule that works for you, with one alternate, and the time driving there should be taken out of your stbxw's 50%.
She fled with your daughter without cause...

The schedule could be friday, sat, Sunday and a Wednesday (Wednesday every other week)..less shuffling back and forth is preferable.  Then present an alternate schedule.  Each schedule could be rotated every 3 months, or every 6 months.
Any and all efforts on your part are showing the court you take this seriously, you care, you are not taking this lying down...

She needs to answer for her irrational behaviour...
Even if she doesn't respond, at least she will know that you intend to be proactive.

All of your child's established health care, living arrangements, base, are at her home, where you live.  She has been traumatized by your wife, needlessly.

Your daughter is being used as a pawn by your stbxw and that is mean, cruel...

If you had acted in a similar fashion you would probably be in jail.

Completely agree with you here - she absolutely is using our daughter as a pawn and is traumatizing her.

Our daughter is only 2, and hasn't started pre-school yet, so at least that aspect hasn't become an issue yet. Where my wife's legal residence will be moving forward is yet to be determined. I'm hoping we can come to some sort of agreement where we're geographically closer to each other for everyone's sake.

Regarding the final custody order, I'm shooting for as much as possible. From what I've learned from talking to various attorneys around here, the worst-case (but also most likely) scenario for me in the long run is a 50-50 split. Based on who my wife is, what she's done in the past and what she's likely to do in the future, I think it's in our daughter's best interest to be with me as much as possible. So unless it becomes virtually impossible to attain, my plan is to fight for full custody.

[alleyesonme]

When you seek 50/50, there are two likely factors here:  (1) you are being fair, which should not be a consideration since your spouse has been behaving unfairly, and (2) you are hoping parenting can stop being so lopsided and become equal since both parent could then have equal time.

Problem:  You don't gain many points with the court by trying to be fair.  They will look at who has time to parent (many mothers don't work or work less) and who can pay child support (many fathers earn more income than mothers).  Although it is less automatic these days in some states, many courts default to assigning Primary Parent status to mothers.  (My ex was facing a Threat of DV charge in municipal court and still was able to get temp custody and majority time in a temp order.)  There's a truism I learned here a few years ago:  The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom get credit.

So my advice is to get as much of your history and events mentioned or listed during that first hearing which determines the temp order.  (Bring 3 copies, one for the judge, one for the other side and one for your lawyer.)  For our sort of cases, temp orders issued from that initial brief hearing, sometimes during only a half hour, go on and on until the eventual final decree becomes effective.  For many here it was a year, two years or for a few even later.  (My two temp orders covered more than two years.  Neither the judge, magistrate or lawyers were willing to fix the problems with the temp order.  It seemed they felt, why change it, it's only temporary. )

Now, as for the 50/50 impulse:  That's good, but not enough by itself.  For example, if you have equal rights, then who will decide when you two parents can't agree?  That's why judges often order joint custody but also one parent to be the Primary Parent for major decisions such as school, medical, religion, etc.  Frankly, judges often lean toward mother taking charge of final decisions and dads pay the bills.  (That's great only if the mother is the reasonably normal parent.)  Some have resolved it by settling for one parent to get some major decisions while the other parent gets other major decisions.  Other equal time cases have had the judge assign the more reasonable parent with Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  This way it can still be referred to court or elsewhere if the other parent contests it but at least we can go ahead while the issue is pending.

Here is an excerpt from one of my prior posts.  It was written with the father's perspective here, a mother's presentation would of course differ.  Follow the link for the complete post.

Awesome info here.

Great point about being fair. I'm trying to strike a balance between being the reasonable one in this case but also being assertive. That's a fine line to walk.

As you said, we need to knock it out of the park both at that temporary custody hearing and in my meeting(s) with the GAL. I'll be sure to bring as much documentation as possible. Like you said, these rulings aren't very temporary.

My attorney told me that he thinks we can work a lot of my concerns regarding decision making into the final settlement (assuming we come to a 50/50 settlement). For a number of personal reasons, I would think I'd have some leverage there, but I'm also clearly biased.

You suggest to focus on the parenting issues, rather than the DV. I think that in my situation, those two overlap, as DV committed in the presence of a child is considered child abuse. That's one of my biggest concerns with my wife as a parent. In the past, during calmer moments, my wife has even said to me, "If I can't lash out at you, then who can I lash out at?" As if it's acceptable and necessary for people to do that. When I'm out of the picture, what if our daughter starts taking the brunt of these rages? And what happens when my wife inevitably starts dating again and DV pops up in that relationship? Not only would it be awful for our daughter to see my wife being violent with yet another man, but what if that guy loses his cool and fights back?

[Turkish]

And what happens when my wife inevitably starts dating again and DV pops up in that relationship? Not only would it be awful for our daughter to see my wife being violent with yet another man, but what if that guy loses his cool and fights back?

That happened in my situation. The kids saw step dad acting out and then mommy punching him. She called me and using the skills I learned here, I got her to call the local YWCA. I also encourages her to call her therapist. Two days later, our daughter, for a  unrelated matter, had a therapy appointment. If that appointment hadn't have happened, I might have called CPS to report it. 

There was one other incident later in the year on Christmas eve where they both struggled over something in a box. He let go and she "hit" him.  He called the cops, so did she. Our then 4 year old daughter awoke and asked why the cops were in the apartment, "are they here to take away [step dad]?" Their mom told me the next day only because she thought the kids might tell me. Given that he had moved out, I deemed the kids safe. It was a miracle that one or both of then weren't arrested. If he had called the cops the first time, she likely would have been. She showed me her hand two days later at the T appointmemt and the entire top of her hand was bruised she punched him so hard. 

Long before this, we negotiated joint legal and physical custody. Focus on the Now. Sufficient is the evil of the day thereof. You may have to deal with such things in the future, but refocus on doing what you have to do now. My ex moved out when the kids were 1 and just turned 4.

[ForeverDad]

You suggest to focus on the parenting issues, rather than the DV. I think that in my situation, those two overlap, as DV committed in the presence of a child is considered child abuse.

Okay, I didn't explain myself clearly.  I wasn't saying to omit reporting or revealing poor adult behaviors.  What I have noticed is that courts and the professionals surrounding court tend to deal with DV (between adults) separately from child-impacting behaviors.  (I listed how my ex was facing a Threat of DV charge but still got a 'standard' mother-preferred temp order.)

Child protection gets more attention and child-impacting behaviors are generally viewed as more "actionable" as far as custody and parenting are considered.  With that in mind, what I recommended was to give priority (or move to the top of your list) the poor behaviors that could be viewed as impacting the children.  The courts and agencies are quick to protect minors, adults are presumed to be more capable to make life choices which children can't or aren't free to do.

This reminds me of the two calls I made to CPS in the months prior to my marriage's implosion.  Both women who answered my calls asked, "Was your spouse raging at the child?"  I had to answer, "No, just me but our preschooler was right there trying to hide under the table."  Their advice, "Call again if she rages at your child."  Do you understand what happened?  They were CPS and their agency doesn't deal with adult victims, they deal with what (rises to the level to sufficiently) impact the children.  Since we often can't be sure what they see as important, report it all but also realize that for them how much the children are impacted is a huge factor.

That your case has an overlap of DV and child abuse is notable.  Our cases vary from member to member and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  In my case my local professionals apparently considered there was sufficient difference between a child's exposure to raging versus being the focus of raging.

[Turkish]

This can be difficult to navigate.

My ex told the story to D's therapist.  The T said that she'd have to report it and then asked me to leave the room.  I hung out on the hall with the kids.

Reported, I called my T. He told me that he wouldn't likely have reported it since the kids weren't in danger though it was a judgement call.  The Kaiser therapist consulted with her colleagues and struggled though didn't report it because my ex admitted it,  and we were in parenting classes. I can't help but think if it were me as a man that I would have been reported. Yet CPS is a whole other deal. They aren't on your side at all. 

I reported possible molestation by an uncle and CPS made a thinly veiled threat that they could take the kids from me no matter that I reported.

Focus on the Now.  We'll be here to help you navigate the future.

[defogging]

I was floored too when I saw that you guys reached a settlement so early in the process. This is an awful process to go through, but I'm glad to hear that you got through the worst part of it so quickly.

Yeah, I'm extremely pleased with how fast it went.  I probably set the land speed record for quickest divorce from a PD.  I had figured the divorce would last a couple years, at the end of the marriage we couldn't even agree that the sky was blue.

Looking back, my ex was charming me during the divorce and this is why she was agreeable to a lot of things in mediation.  After mediation we just had to file the agreements with the court and have the judge sign the final decree, this is when she attempted to hit the brakes hard and stop the divorce.  Several attempts were made to reconcile or change it to a separation.  It was far too late for her to reverse it, the judge had a deadline set and was ready to sign, and I wouldn't consider anything but a complete dissolution.

Even after it was final she told me she wasn't giving up on our family.  It was creepy, she went from being nasty to putting on the fake sweet face I had known in the beginning of the relationship, but I saw right through it.  It didn't last long, all it took was me disagreeing with her a couple times and she painted me black again.  She despises me now, but that's okay since I am so used to her treating me poorly it actually feels normal to interact with her this way.

[alleyesonme]

That happened in my situation. The kids saw step dad acting out and then mommy punching him. She called me and using the skills I learned here, I got her to call the local YWCA. I also encourages her to call her therapist. Two days later, our daughter, for a  unrelated matter, had a therapy appointment. If that appointment hadn't have happened, I might have called CPS to report it. 

There was one other incident later in the year on Christmas eve where they both struggled over something in a box. He let go and she "hit" him.  He called the cops, so did she. Our then 4 year old daughter awoke and asked why the cops were in the apartment, "are they here to take away [step dad]?" Their mom told me the next day only because she thought the kids might tell me. Given that he had moved out, I deemed the kids safe. It was a miracle that one or both of then weren't arrested. If he had called the cops the first time, she likely would have been. She showed me her hand two days later at the T appointmemt and the entire top of her hand was bruised she punched him so hard. 

Long before this, we negotiated joint legal and physical custody. Focus on the Now. Sufficient is the evil of the day thereof. You may have to deal with such things in the future, but refocus on doing what you have to do now. My ex moved out when the kids were 1 and just turned 4.

Wow, that's a shame that that happened, but I'm glad to hear that he moved out and there hasn't been anything like that since.

Slightly off topic here, but with your kids being so young (mine is 2) when she moved out, do you have any advice on helping your kids through the divorce? Other posters have already shared some great advice with me, and I'm curious to hear yours as well.

[alleyesonme]

Okay, I didn't explain myself clearly.  I wasn't saying to omit reporting or revealing poor adult behaviors.  What I have noticed is that courts and the professionals surrounding court tend to deal with DV (between adults) separately from child-impacting behaviors.  (I listed how my ex was facing a Threat of DV charge but still got a 'standard' mother-preferred temp order.)

Child protection gets more attention and child-impacting behaviors are generally viewed as more "actionable" as far as custody and parenting are considered.  With that in mind, what I recommended was to give priority (or move to the top of your list) the poor behaviors that could be viewed as impacting the children.  The courts and agencies are quick to protect minors, adults are presumed to be more capable to make life choices which children can't or aren't free to do.

This reminds me of the two calls I made to CPS in the months prior to my marriage's implosion.  Both women who answered my calls asked, "Was your spouse raging at the child?"  I had to answer, "No, just me but our preschooler was right there trying to hide under the table."  Their advice, "Call again if she rages at your child."  Do you understand what happened?  They were CPS and their agency doesn't deal with adult victims, they deal with what (rises to the level to sufficiently) impact the children.  Since we often can't be sure what they see as important, report it all but also realize that for them how much the children are impacted is a huge factor.

That your case has an overlap of DV and child abuse is notable.  Our cases vary from member to member and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.  In my case my local professionals apparently considered there was sufficient difference between a child's exposure to raging versus being the focus of raging.

Got it - thank you for the clarification.

So my future wife throwing a plate at my head before we were even engaged isn't quite as important for divorce court as when she recently slapped me right in front of our daughter? Makes sense. My attorney said he's planning to focus on the recent acts of violence.

That's a shame that CPS didn't deem that as actionable. You could argue that many rages are more harmful for kids to witness than a single act of physical violence.

[alleyesonme]

Yeah, I'm extremely pleased with how fast it went.  I probably set the land speed record for quickest divorce from a PD.  I had figured the divorce would last a couple years, at the end of the marriage we couldn't even agree that the sky was blue.

Looking back, my ex was charming me during the divorce and this is why she was agreeable to a lot of things in mediation.  After mediation we just had to file the agreements with the court and have the judge sign the final decree, this is when she attempted to hit the brakes hard and stop the divorce.  Several attempts were made to reconcile or change it to a separation.  It was far too late for her to reverse it, the judge had a deadline set and was ready to sign, and I wouldn't consider anything but a complete dissolution.

Even after it was final she told me she wasn't giving up on our family.  It was creepy, she went from being nasty to putting on the fake sweet face I had known in the beginning of the relationship, but I saw right through it.  It didn't last long, all it took was me disagreeing with her a couple times and she painted me black again.  She despises me now, but that's okay since I am so used to her treating me poorly it actually feels normal to interact with her this way.

LOL you probably did set the land speed record!

That's so strange that she kept trying to charm you and "save the family," but it fits the description of BP's that I've read about. Tip of the cap to you for seeing through it and protecting yourself.

At this point, my wife has all the leverage in our case, but I could definitely see her trying to pull the same thing if it starts to look like she'll only get 50/50 custody at best.

[ForeverDad]

As I wrote, jurisdictions (state or local, even between judges) can set different levels for what is considered 'actionable'.  Local lawyers should be better able to suggest what matters in your area.  In my case simple ranting and raging wasn't enough.  Yours was a bit more than mine, actions were involved.

Also, my court didn't want to hear incidents older than 6 months before we filed for court.  Apparently older incidents, dredging up the ancient past, can be considered "stale" or less actionable.  However, if such incidents are presented to describe a pattern of behaviors over time then that may allow an expanded time frame.

[alleyesonme]

As I wrote, jurisdictions (state or local, even between judges) can set different levels for what is considered 'actionable'.  Local lawyers should be better able to suggest what matters in your area.  In my case simple ranting and raging wasn't enough.  Yours was a bit more than mine, actions were involved.

Also, my court didn't want to hear incidents older than 6 months before we filed for court.  Apparently older incidents, dredging up the ancient past, can be considered "stale" or less actionable.  However, if such incidents are presented to describe a pattern of behaviors over time then that may allow an expanded time frame.

Thank you for the info.

Based on what you've experienced and heard, I have a question for you and others. My case will start moving forward procedurally soon. Both from reading this site and having read "Splitting," I understand that rather than try to pin a BPD diagnosis on my wife, the best approach is to focus on patterns of behavior. Just like you said above.

I have personal journal entries and marriage counselor notes dating back several years where I state a number of times that she is crazy and has BPD. These journal entries and marriage counselor notes also contain a significant amount of proof of things that she has said and done in the past that will very likely help my case.

When I meet with the GAL and when I'm at our first hearing, I realize I shouldn't focus on pinning a diagnosis of BPD on her. However, will it look bad in the eyes of the court that I was indeed pinning a BPD diagnosis on her in my own personal thoughts and in my sessions with our MC?

[ForeverDad]

When I meet with the GAL and when I'm at our first hearing, I realize I shouldn't focus on pinning a diagnosis of BPD on her. However, will it look bad in the eyes of the court that I was indeed pinning a BPD diagnosis on her in my own personal thoughts and in my sessions with our MC?

You are allowed to form your own opinions of people, even your spouse.  So don't feel overly distressed over the past events and concerns.  You were concerned, right?  You had a right to be concerned!  So don't fret over it.

Courts are very reluctant, at least at first, to point fingers at either parent.  However, they do expect issues to arise when dealing with separations and divorces and discount them, probably too much.  We have a saying here I first read a few years ago in someone's post, it may help you feel less bad...  The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom get credit.

The reality is that there are bigger issues to deal with than whether you suspected your spouse had an acting-out personality disorder.  While it is The Big Source of the family's problem, courts typically ignore the psychological aspects and focus on the documented poor behaviors.  Nothing wrong saying what you suspect but courts typically discount us as laymen trying to Play Doctor.  Just view this as merely a heads up on how the courts work.  Repeat, you did nothing wrong in voicing your concerns in sessions or in your journals.

[alleyesonme]

You are allowed to form your own opinions of people, even your spouse.  So don't feel overly distressed over the past events and concerns.  You were concerned, right?  You had a right to be concerned!  So don't fret over it.

Courts are very reluctant, at least at first, to point fingers at either parent.  However, they do expect issues to arise when dealing with separations and divorces and discount them, probably too much.  We have a saying here I first read a few years ago in someone's post, it may help you feel less bad...  The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom get credit.

The reality is that there are bigger issues to deal with than whether you suspected your spouse had an acting-out personality disorder.  While it is The Big Source of the family's problem, courts typically ignore the psychological aspects and focus on the documented poor behaviors.  Nothing wrong saying what you suspect but courts typically discount us as laymen trying to Play Doctor.  Just view this as merely a heads up on how the courts work.  Repeat, you did nothing wrong in voicing your concerns in sessions or in your journals.

That all makes sense - thank you for the reply. Helps me feel better about the coming weeks!

[defogging]

That's so strange that she kept trying to charm you and "save the family," but it fits the description of BP's that I've read about. Tip of the cap to you for seeing through it and protecting yourself.

At this point, my wife has all the leverage in our case, but I could definitely see her trying to pull the same thing if it starts to look like she'll only get 50/50 custody at best.

That's the crux of it, keep learning how they'll react and find the best ways to respond to it.  You will learn them over time as I have, and as I still am.  You'll get to a point where you can semi-accurately predict the PD response.  And, from what I'm reading, your wife doesn't have all the leverage.  Stand steady, and move forward when the opportunity presents itself.

I saw you wrote above about "pinning" a diagnosis.  In my experience that worked out very poorly, from MC's to T's to L's.  I found that therapists and any other professionals involved very much do not want to hear a diagnosis from one of the participants.

Today, my kids are in therapy and thankfully growing out of it.  I've found that cluing the therapists in a little bit and then stepping back to let them see it on their own works the best.  Describe behaviors, describe patterns, throw in a few key words like "boundaries", and let them figure it out.  Same thing works best in general life, keep your cards close to the vest and let people see things play out for themselves.  IME, PDs rarely have close friends, just flying monkeys.  The best way to respond to them is to let them become closer to the PD and see how it works out for themselves.

Good luck bud, keep stepping forward.

[alleyesonme]

That's the crux of it, keep learning how they'll react and find the best ways to respond to it.  You will learn them over time as I have, and as I still am.  You'll get to a point where you can semi-accurately predict the PD response.  And, from what I'm reading, your wife doesn't have all the leverage.  Stand steady, and move forward when the opportunity presents itself.

I saw you wrote above about "pinning" a diagnosis.  In my experience that worked out very poorly, from MC's to T's to L's.  I found that therapists and any other professionals involved very much do not want to hear a diagnosis from one of the participants.

Today, my kids are in therapy and thankfully growing out of it.  I've found that cluing the therapists in a little bit and then stepping back to let them see it on their own works the best.  Describe behaviors, describe patterns, throw in a few key words like "boundaries", and let them figure it out.  Same thing works best in general life, keep your cards close to the vest and let people see things play out for themselves.  IME, PDs rarely have close friends, just flying monkeys.  The best way to respond to them is to let them become closer to the PD and see how it works out for themselves.

Good luck bud, keep stepping forward.

Were you able to predict your ex's actions/reactions during the marriage, or is that something that came to you during/after the divorce process?

Regarding leverage, I still like my case in the long run, but I was just referring to the short term. Because she took our daughter away before filing for divorce, I didn't have any immediate legal recourse to force her to share parenting right away, so she got to call all the shots - that's what I was referring to. Now that the process is starting to pick up a little, my time with our daughter should only increase from here on out.

With the diagnosis, my tentative plan is that I'd verbally focus only on her pattern of behaviors, and then hope that whoever I'm speaking to (the GAL, the magistrate, the judge, etc.) will connect the dots on their own. However, in my personal journal, I've made a bunch of mentions of her having BPD. Those journals contain a good amount of proof for my case, so I need to use them.

My hope is that the person reading them will focus on the fact that these entries all back up the pattern of behavior that I'm alluding to, and they won't get put off too much by my private thoughts in which I did diagnose her. Does that make sense? And if so, based on your experiences, do you think those people will approach it that way?

I actually laughed out loud at your suggestion to let people become closer to the PD and see how it works out for themselves - AMEN! I think her friends and family all realize that she's got some screws loose for sure, but they don't live with her, so they aren't there for the full meltdowns and have no idea how bad she really is.

Earlier in this process, someone asked me if I thought she'd cheated on me. I honestly haven't ever suspected that, but my initial instinct was that if someone wants to deal with her, they can have at it whenever they want. I've been emotionally withdrawn for a long time now.

She has actually been able to scrounge up a ton of support by saying the right things ("I'm a loving mom, my husband is a controlling jerk, I'm trying to be strong to do what's best for my child, etc."). Those are all noble and valid on the surface if you don't actually know what she's really like and what I'm really like behind closed doors, so a lot of people have unfortunately bought what she's selling.

[defogging]

Were you able to predict your ex's actions/reactions during the marriage, or is that something that came to you during/after the divorce process?

Regarding leverage, I still like my case in the long run, but I was just referring to the short term. Because she took our daughter away before filing for divorce, I didn't have any immediate legal recourse to force her to share parenting right away, so she got to call all the shots - that's what I was referring to. Now that the process is starting to pick up a little, my time with our daughter should only increase from here on out.

With the diagnosis, my tentative plan is that I'd verbally focus only on her pattern of behaviors, and then hope that whoever I'm speaking to (the GAL, the magistrate, the judge, etc.) will connect the dots on their own. However, in my personal journal, I've made a bunch of mentions of her having BPD. Those journals contain a good amount of proof for my case, so I need to use them.

My hope is that the person reading them will focus on the fact that these entries all back up the pattern of behavior that I'm alluding to, and they won't get put off too much by my private thoughts in which I did diagnose her. Does that make sense? And if so, based on your experiences, do you think those people will approach it that way?

I actually laughed out loud at your suggestion to let people become closer to the PD and see how it works out for themselves - AMEN! I think her friends and family all realize that she's got some screws loose for sure, but they don't live with her, so they aren't there for the full meltdowns and have no idea how bad she really is.

Earlier in this process, someone asked me if I thought she'd cheated on me. I honestly haven't ever suspected that, but my initial instinct was that if someone wants to deal with her, they can have at it whenever they want. I've been emotionally withdrawn for a long time now.

She has actually been able to scrounge up a ton of support by saying the right things ("I'm a loving mom, my husband is a controlling jerk, I'm trying to be strong to do what's best for my child, etc."). Those are all noble and valid on the surface if you don't actually know what she's really like and what I'm really like behind closed doors, so a lot of people have unfortunately bought what she's selling.

I couldn't predict much of anything while living together, there was far too much daily chaos.  You can't predict the direction of a tornado when you're in it.  After I left and our communication was only in writing it gave me the space to think about her actions.  She sends me a text, I think about it for awhile, and then I can usually come up with an educated guess about what will happen next.  Usually she demands something, I come up with 2-3 different scenarios that may play out, and then I hear from a teacher or therapist that some demand was made without my knowledge.  She still surprises me, but having the space of written communication gives me time to think about a smart way to respond.  A big part of that is once you realize their actions aren't aimed to destroy you, but rather a crude self defense mechanism, it removes the anger you may have once felt about their actions and you can stay one step ahead of them.

Regarding leverage - Yeah, I was speaking long term.  I agree she may have leverage right now, but this is a marathon not a sprint.  The courts will (should) eventually even things out.  Just keep your head on straight and don't overreact to anything and you will be fine.

Regarding the diagnosis - Sounds like you have a good plan.  One thing I've gotten better at is reading the therapists.  I will share information, and then once I feel like they're thinking they've heard enough about Mom I back off.  Then, the inevitable outburst over nothing comes from Mom and they are like "huh?" so they see me as the more credible parent and I get the chance to explain a little more.  The kids' T's are really good at picking up on things, so we don't talk much about Mom anymore.  There is sort of an unspoken understanding that Mom is off, but we don't go into details.  The T's seem to focus on keeping Mom calm so the outbursts are minimized and don't disrupt the ongoing sessions for the kids.  I think they've played it well and don't see a need to explain things at this point.

Your last three paragraphs are a mirror image of my situation.  The people close to the PD (mainly her family in my case) have been on the roller coaster for so long they just hold on for the ride and are afraid to say anything.  I've come to see that my exPDw's friends are only friends on the surface.  She doesn't have any close friends, or lifelong friends from HS/college like most people have.  People come and go over short periods of time.  Once I was able to see that and recognized that the people who stopped talking to me weren't really that close to her at all it made things easier.  I knew that eventually they would no longer be friends with her, and stopped caring what they thought.  My ex was able to garner a lot of sympathy as well by saying the right things, but time has passed now and I feel little tension when I'm around other parents that she may have spoken to.  They've seen me enough times with my kids being a loving dad, trading jokes with the kids while they laugh heartily, and my guess is some of them question just how "abusive" I really was.  I found that people all have their own lives to worry about, the dust will eventually settle and they stop caring about your divorce.

The hardest part is the beginning, if you can shut out all the worry about what people are thinking it will make things easier.  When I went through it, I set my mind on the fact that I was there to protect my kids and would do anything for them.  That made me very driven to get through it, and I wasn't going to back down.  Whenever any doubt crept in, I returned my focus to the kids and what they need.

I think it's easier on the nonPD once the PD finds another relationship.  I don't think my ex is dating anyone, but I don't care one way or another.  I would welcome it, it would give her a new supply.  That's actually something my lawyer said to me once.  He said the pattern he's seen is that things are usually nasty for awhile after the divorce is final, and then once the ex finds a new partner things calm down because the ex is now focused on them instead of you.

[defogging]

To expand on my post above, I'll add a quick story to show one experience I had that shows how people really don't see it as a one sided thing all the time.

There is a couple that we knew, that were her friends first.  Not real close friends, more like neighbors that we stayed in touch with.  In the beginning of the divorce, I saw them in a restaurant.  The wife spotted me, quickly looked away and walked the other direction.  I didn't think much of it, just thought "yep, they're on her side like I figured they would be".  I wrote it off since I didn't know them well anyways, though the husband and I had a few things in common and liked each other.

A year later in the beginning of Covid, my phone rings with a number I didn't recognize.  I picked it up, lo and behold it was the husband.  I was caught off guard, thought maybe something was up with exPDw and he needed to reach out to me.  Instead, he was just calling to chat and see how I was doing.  It was a light conversation, he's not someone I could share all the ugly details with because he wouldn't understand.  We discussed that it's unfortunate, and things happen but we both need to move on and be there for the kids.  The conversation ended with both of us saying that we have nothing but fond memories of the friendship and best of luck to each other.

I would have been okay with never talking to them again, no grudges or anything, just moving on.  But, it felt good that he reached out that day and we established there were no hard feelings or sides taken.  To me, it was another example of how people will see that there are two sides to every story, even if they haven't heard mine.  It made me wonder how many others are out there who understand I have my own version of events too, and aren't really flying monkeys even though they may agree with my exPDw on the surface.