Another crisis part 4

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345582.0

I’ll need to adjust our safe word rules as now it’s a “reconvene in 30 minutes” thing — that doesn’t work. But I think changing it is likely the best plan.

Yes, he’s baseline the next day. The morning often starts with him gloomy and maybe slightly combative but more stable. We start talking and he’s almost immediately more rational and reasonable.

I get the impression that he’s depressed, embarrassed and fearful after an outburst. Once we talk and things are ok (and I’m not leaving), he feels better. But the pattern isn’t encouraging change of progress or growth.

[Ozzie101]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345582.0

I’ll need to adjust our safe word rules as now it’s a “reconvene in 30 minutes” thing — that doesn’t work. But I think changing it is likely the best plan.

Yes, he’s baseline the next day. The morning often starts with him gloomy and maybe slightly combative but more stable. We start talking and he’s almost immediately more rational and reasonable.

I get the impression that he’s depressed, embarrassed and fearful after an outburst. Once we talk and things are ok (and I’m not leaving), he feels better. But the pattern isn’t encouraging change of progress or growth.

[Cat Familiar]

The notion that people can reset in twenty minutes comes from the idea that amount of time is what it takes for the amygdala to return to baseline and stop the cascade of increased heart rate, sweaty palms, obsessive thinking. But for some people, it takes much longer to arrive at that place of peace and tranquillity.

My husband will often feel the Day is “ruined” if something unpleasant happens and he won’t be able to get back to baseline until a new day. He’s doing better with that thinking, but it’s still present.

Perhaps your husband needs several hours to get back to a rational perspective.

[Ozzie101]

I think that’s probably true.

[GaGrl]

"Reconvene in 30 minutes" isn't really a safe word -- it's more like an implied agreement to go to your respective corners.

I'm thinking more of a word that signals a particular behavior or wording is in danger of detailing the conversation. It can be blunt, if that is what is needed. If blaming your parents is the behavior, what is a one-word signal to him that he is going down an unacceptable path?

You can make an agreement that you use the safe word. If that does not resolve the behavior, you leave the conversation. If he follows you, you leave the house.

[formflier]

I use a phrase

"This way babe..."

It comes from the book "Cherish" by Gary Thomas.

https://www.amazon.com/Cherish-Word-Changes-Everything-Marriage/dp/1531834256


His wife was always getting lost/directionally challenged. 

"Babe" tends to soften things.


I see two different "words" or things to communicate.

1.  We're still talking but you are going down the wrong road, if you don't turn around it's time out time.

2.  It's time out time.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

My dear husband is much more conservative than I am. Needless to say, there are current situations that rile me and that we disagree on. When we get to that point, I look at him and say, "Do NOT go there." At that point, we drop it. Agree to disagree. Because our marriage is more important than our political differences. BUT! We are not expecting each other to alleviate our discomfort. We are responsible for what positions we take and for the discomfort that comes with disagreement.

 Still...it's a safe word/phrase.

[Ozzie101]

I see what y’all mean. I like the idea of two safe words or phrases. He won’t like it, but it’s not about what he likes. It’s about what’s best for him/me/us.

A problem we run into with these things is he gets defensive and upset if he feels like it’s all on him. If he feels like I’m saying it’s all his “fault” and that I’m not doing anything wrong. (When he’s in a state, it’s the accusation that I think I and my family are perfect - which I definitely do not believe.) I’ve done my best to communicate that there are mistakes and shortcomings all around but that doesn’t stick. When I present the safe words idea, I think I’ll make sure he knows that it’s for both of us — he’s free to use it as well.

That’s a big part of his problems all around, really. He takes everything personally. If a restaurant gets his order wrong, he doesn’t think it was a mistake. It was a personal attack. This leads to his flipping out over anything at work. Similarly anything with my family. If they don’t treat him/SS correctly (even if it’s in line with their normal behavior), it’s magnified and he wants nothing to do with them.

He wants me to validate by mirroring. He has cussed out his parents. Cut them off. Told them how they should act and what they should do and he’ll explode if they don’t. The fact that i refuse frustrates him. I don’t think it’s just that he wants me to stand up for him. I think he also wants me to show that his behaviors and choices are right by doing the same.

I get that it’s a part of BPD (or shades of NPD) but it means discussions about communication problems, etc., require delicacy.

[Cat Familiar]

I used to have a similar issue with my husband thinking that I thought I was "perfect" without any faults or flaws. He'd say things like, "You're up on your high horse" or "You think you're so perfect."

It galled me because I grew up with a very critical parent and I internalized that sense of shame. It took lots of therapy hours and $$$$ to get past that. But nowadays I'm very kind to myself. I know I screw up at times, but so does everyone. When I do, I try to make things better, but I no longer punish myself about it.

My husband brings a self-punitive attitude stemming from similar childhood issues. I think it irritates him that I don't have an observable sense of self-recrimination like he does. But I don't and good riddance!

I think the reason he continues to accuse you and your family of perfection is because it triggers you and you JADE about it. I'd try making a joke and see what happens. "Yes, we're gods in human form. I'm glad you've recognized it. Welcome to the club."

Perhaps some of the therapy that my husband did in the last couple of years has lessened his sense of taking things personally. It used to be that if a checker at the grocery store wasn't "friendly" when they had been "friendly" previously, he'd get upset. Many times I would have been there and when he mentioned how "unfriendly" they'd been, I never would have noticed. And that would get him upset because I wasn't validating his experience. 

[Ozzie101]

Good idea, Cat. I’ll try that joke approach.

[pursuingJoy]

Ozzie, just want to hop in to let you know I'm following your story.

I get the impression that he’s depressed, embarrassed and fearful after an outburst.

I see this in my H after outbursts, too. I can relate to the cycles you describe.

Last week, H started to get nasty so I held my hand up and said, "I won't continue this conversation if you're going to talk to me that way." I walked outside to get some fresh air. When I came back in, I was calm, I spoke to him (the silent treatment is terrifying to him), but I kept him at a polite distance. Later that night he tried to explain, and I maintained a firm and simple statement. Will he do it again? Yeah. Do I feel better for setting a boundary. I do. It's worth doing again, because it made me feel better.

A few days ago, I let him dump on me. I limited the time, I stayed calm, and I tried to be a mirror, not a sponge (like SWOE talks about). It wore me out, but it wasn't as bad as it could have been. He later apologized. Will he do it again? Yeah. Do I feel stronger for using my mad ninja skills to mirror, not absorb? I do. It's one more tool in my toolbelt.

He won’t like it, but it’s not about what he likes. It’s about what’s best for him/me/us.

Also, sometimes it's ok to do things simply because it's what you can manage in the moment. You've worked so hard at learning the tools. Trust your intuition, and sometimes, just worry about you.

Sending you energy and peace and many hugs, because I know how exhausting this is.  

pj

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, PJ!

That night, he started this childish mocking thing he’s done before and I did much what you did. Held up my hand and firmly told him I wasn’t going to participate in a discussion that involved that sort of behavior. He stopped.

I’m still working on mirroring and “ninja skills” but I do think I’ve improved some. I don’t panic or get as emotional as I used to. Where I really need to improve is in exiting the conversation when it derails. But I’ve gotten some awesome advice.

[GaGrl]

As much as we all work to master the tools available on this site, there's something to be said for a simple "Stop it."

 I had reached a frustration point with my mother several months ago, because she goes waifish if she doesn't feel her "suggestions" are appreciated. If I followed through on all her suggestions, this household (including the finances) would be chaotic. So I had said no to a suggestion, and she went into a litany of "I don't even feel like I live here...I'm just a visitor. ..I guess I should just keep my mouth shut and never say anything...yada, yada, yada" thing. Well, she lives in the master suite with a bathroom remodeled for aging needs, and our living room is completely filled with her furniture (which my husband thinks is hideous and would burn if he could). And she lived in our retirement house by herself for three years before we moved in permanently, so...b.s.

I just looked at her and said, "Stop saying that. I really don't like hearing it."

It's been months, and she hasn't repeated any of her selfish complaints.

I was stunned. I thought I was speaking from frustration, but she obviously took it in and owned it.

[Ozzie101]

So, the annual audit for H’s work came out and he felt personally attacked. I read the draft over the weekend and it actually didn’t seem that bad. He and I talked about it and I asked if the suggestions made were really about him or more about protocol things that should be implemented regardless of who’s in the role. He said probably the latter and seemed fine.

Well, he was at the office all day today and seemed fine. Then he texts me that the auditors sent their “nasty” attack. He’s not going to the meeting he was supposed to attend this evening. He’s quitting tonight. I don’t know if it was the same letter I saw or if they added stuff.

Will he? Going by his pattern, no. I think he’ll cool off.

But, honestly, These constant crises are exhausting.

There’s a definite pattern. These things happen and he flips out when he’s away from home for an extended time. But it’s not like I can keep by him all the time to balance him. He has to learn to do it himself.

Anyway, when he texted me, I told him I was sorry all this was happening, it sounded so infuriating for him and that I love him.

We’ll see.

I feel bad that I keep coming here complaining about this stuff. I’m sure it sounds like a broken record. It just helps to get it all out.

[I Am Redeemed]

Sounds like a broken record playing in your house, Ozzie, and it's no wonder you're exhausted when the same issue keeps popping up over and over and over again.

Do you think a lot of the things that happen at work may be him flipping out and taking something out of context and applying it to himself as a personal attack? It seems that he is very sensitive to any perceived criticism. Maybe he is consistently blowing things others say and do out of proportion and attributing malicious motives to people when there is no evidence.

My ex did that a lot; he was super suspicious and paranoid and highly sensitive to things others said and did which he took personally. He was always scanning his environment for signs that someone was attacking or threatening him in some way.

[GaGrl]

I feel your stress levels rising. I'm so sorry...It sounds exhausting.

[Ozzie101]

Redeemed, I think that’s exactly what’s happening. Everything is personal. Everything is an attack against him. Every inconvenience is someone purposefully trying to make his life difficult.

He’ll say it himself — he’s self-centered and thinks about himself way more than is healthy. The flip side of that is assuming everyone else thinks about him too.

I remember someone saying once: “Next time you worry too much about wearing the same outfit to church two weeks in a row, think this: do you really notice when other people do that? Probably not.” Similar concept here. I really don’t think people are attacking him. But any criticism cuts him because he’s focused on himself and insecure.

And I’m not at all shocked to hear he is at the meeting after all.

[formflier]

I'm going to break with tradition and suggest that you suggest to him to bring copies of the last several years of his audits.

Read them together and see where the trend is going.

Good grief...auditors don't get hired to stroke people and tell them they are doing a good job.  They find stuff.

I usually make sure I leave some low hanging fruit here and there for them to find and I also make sure they don't see repeats from last year or if it's a repeat it's not as bad.

Low hanging fruit and no repeats...they generally stop digging pretty soon..


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

We talked about all that. And they do always find “stuff.” This time, he just felt it was personal since his position was mentioned. None of the three things they pointed out were bad at all. He’s just primed to be upset and sensitive.

We talked a lot this weekend about it all and I thought he was in a good place.

Makes me wonder if something else happened or just the usual full day in the office left him off-balance.

He says he walked out of the meeting. One person was “a problem” and my parents’ friend disagreed with an objection H made.

I’m not biting. I moved forward on dinner plans (he’s been ignoring my questions —. SS is here so I can’t just let dinner go or wait until 9:00). I’m not having an incident tonight. Rational conversation? Sure. But I am not doing what we did last week.

[Ozzie101]

We were actually able to have a calm conversation.

I kept him informed that I was ordering something for dinner, asked him if he was going to pick it up or if I should, then told him SS and I would get it. He never answers as all his texts were related to his crisis. He called while I was driving (which put him on speaker) so he said he’d see us at home. He got home. We ate and watched a movie. Didn’t talk about it all until SS went to bed.

So, he never really had a chance to rant or get wound up. He was upset but not “off” when we talked. I let him explain and asked centering/validating questions. At the end, he asked me why I thought this was all such a problem for him. I was honest: he takes everything too personally. Most of these actions probably aren’t being done to hurt him, etc. And he’s gotten himself entrenched in negative thinking that makes the job even harder to take.

He listened and agreed that that was all a big part of the problem. I suggested he take a few days off and go on a trip (to a relatively safe area) so he can relax and decompress a little. We’ll see.

Anyway, I think it was a success. Will what I said stuck or help? No clue. But he kept it together and I didn’t do anything that triggered him so, yay.

He pointed it out himself.
H: I didn’t fly off the handle.
Me: No, you didn’t. That’s so great. And see how productive and helpful the conversation was?
H: Yeah, I know. It was.

[pursuingJoy]

Ozzie wow! That's a great step to celebrate! 

I kept him informed that I was ordering something for dinner, asked him if he was going to pick it up or if I should, then told him SS and I would get it. He never answers as all his texts were related to his crisis. He called while I was driving (which put him on speaker) so he said he’d see us at home. He got home. We ate and watched a movie. Didn’t talk about it all until SS went to bed.

So, he never really had a chance to rant or get wound up.

I'm struck by this. It's like you created a path for life to move around his crisis and he went with the flow.

[formflier]

FF is doing the dance on this end..this is wonderful.

Keep it up with validating questions and letting him come up with solutions.

Think about a couple of different ways you can ask the question...

"So...what are you planning to do differently to no take things so personally."

If he says he doesn't know...no suggestions..none.  Even if he asks you, tell him you will think about it, but follow up with "wouldn't it be better for you to find a path yourself?"

and perhaps then.

"I wonder who else you could get advice on not taking things so personally in work situations?"

Keep handing it back to him.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, guys. That’s a good suggestion, FF. I’ll remember that. Don’t drop it. Ask him but don’t “nag.”

PJ, that was a conscious decision on my part. In the past I may have waited to hear from him or until he got home — let the storm steer the boat.

Instead, I responded to his texts with bland statements (like “ugh, that sounds tough”), then stayed the course with dinner. Kept him updated so he couldn’t accuse me of not asking him or letting him know, but kept it moving forward. I’m just glad it worked.

[pursuingJoy]

I love it, Ozzie. Good thinking. Based on the results I'd say it's worth trying again!

[formflier]

PJ, that was a conscious decision on my part. In the past I may have waited to hear from him or until he got home — let the storm steer the boat.

Instead, I responded to his texts with bland statements (like “ugh, that sounds tough”), then stayed the course with dinner. Kept him updated so he couldn’t accuse me of not asking him or letting him know, but kept it moving forward. I’m just glad it worked.

Yes..double and triple yes! 

My relationship with my wife is dramatically better than even a few years ago, let alone 5 years ago.  Primarily because "I steered the boat..."

Just the other day my wife potentially laid out lots of bait (we'll never know true intentions) or perhaps she was just putting uncomfortable feelings out there in an odd way...

Whatever the reason/purpose I comforted her some (put my hand on her)...expressed confidence in her... yet made a deliberate decision not to engage on the content. 

It was something to the effect of horrible men that send their wives off to work so they can relax or something like that.

1.  I didn't take it personally.
2.  I chose how much support I would give her.
3.  I "was a leader" in the relationship by offering her the chance to go in a positive direction (talk about nice stuff..do fun stuff)...she went along with it and I left the odd stuff in the past.

Do I "like" doing this stuff.  No...not really.  But the benefits far  FAR outweigh the downsides, so...

Congrats...keep up the good work.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Yay Ozzie!   

[GaGrl]

Significant progress! 

[Ozzie101]

I spoke too soon. He just texted me again that he got fired. This time it might be real. We’ll see. He’s asking his ex to pick up SS.

[formflier]

 

And it might not be...

Take some deep breaths and remember you are forging a new path here.

What seems like best way forward?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Progress is progress, new drama notwithstanding. You've learned to steer the ship in the storm when you can.   

Keep us posted, we're here.

pj