Successful boundary setting with MIL Part 4

[pursuingJoy]

*mod note: This discussion was split from a previous thread found here:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345912.30


buckle up, long post  

Was it really fair, though, if he was expecting that of you? He seems to know from past experience that his mom is a handful.

Ok good point . I guess I am trying to validate his feelings of disappointment, but it was never fair to expect his wife to take care of his mom.

This got me thinking. It's a fact that these relationships predate us. I'm wondering what the effect of validating this might (or does) have on MIL and her behaviors?

I've had the same thought, and here's what's weird. H misrepresents their historical relationship, frequently. He claims that his mom has always been his best friend, but that's factually not true. We went through old notes from his mom's attic when she moved and he had fun reading them out loud to the kids. Time and again, his strained childhood relationship with his mom came up. Birthday cards saying, "Mom, I know we don't always get along, but happy birthday." A school essay talking about how much he doesn't like his mom but he likes his dad. When I met him, he told me he was never close to her. His relationship with her was very strained. They became closer when he and I started dating, and they didn't start talking every day until about a year or more into our relationship.

Validating that they knew each other and have shared history, sure. Any version of validating that their "amazingly close relationship" predated ours is validating the invalid.

Another thing that upsets me is that the tool she uses most frequently to hook his attention is their shared history, talking about his dad and brother's deaths. This comes up all. the. time. Those two talk about death more than anyone I have ever met.

For SD23, I sense undercurrents of: Don't divide my dad's attention. And don't upset this dynamic (scheme?) I have going. Maybe inadvertently we validate this by stepping out of the triangle?

That's exactly what happens. Which is why our counselor insisted that I show up and be present around the two of them, especially immediately after the big conflict last year.

More recently my boundaries mean that she gets even more of his full attention. I've had to accept this consequence, and also see the positive - more of his attention means she is more manageable, and it also means that he is more likely to experience and be the brunt of her dysregulation, which could be a blessing in disguise and possibly the only thing that will make him realize what's happening.

It might sort of be working. Last night he told me that his mom and cousin would drive down here to meet him, but she 'reassured' him that she wouldn't set foot in our house. Guess WHAT? He called her out. "Mom, really? PJ has never said you weren't welcome. If you decide to stay in the car, that's up to you. PJ can come out and give you a hug. But PJ has never said you can't set foot in our house."  

Perhaps when MIL insists on spending time together as MIL/PJ/H it's a known source of conflict that effectively triangulates H. Why else would someone who perceives you as a threat want to spend casual time with you?

Right? Thank you.

His response to micro entanglements is a mixed bag. No surprise there I guess. He does punt to SD23's therapist when she starts to really wind up, "What does your T suggest you do when you feel like this?"

Good job, Mr. lnl! I see you putting responsibility back on SD23 and making sure you're looping back to the T's advice. (round of applause for Mr. lnl)

And he will start conversations with, "Hi SD23, I have 5 min to talk and then I have to go do xyz." Which she then tries to ignore but it's harder to do that in a waify way when he has stated his need upfront.

He has also gotten better at recognizing that SD23 shops around for attention, so if he doesn't answer right away he gambles that she will get support somewhere else.

Okaaay...also really good stuff. More applause. Bravo.

It used to be he felt he was her only rescuer, so he would drop everything, including physical intimacy with me, in order to tend her calls.

Oh yeah that would not have gone over well here. Nope.

I think the waif part of her recognizes that he loves to rescue so she provides that service

Does your H recognize his rescuer tendencies?

And H said, "You're an adult and you can live with whoever you want. Mom and step dad over-reacted." SD23's face lit up. "Mom and step dad did over react!"

Noo. Abort! Abort! (he was doing so well.)

I guess I mention this because recognizing SD23's triangulation means not validating the invalid, and that is so embedded in H's relationship with her. He would have to have a major aha moment in which he could see his own complicity.

I've been wracking my brain trying to think of a different question to ask - he knows, on some level, what's going on. That 'recognizing your own complicity' bit is a huge obstacle.

All I can hope is that my approach encourages H to take responsibility for what he says and does. One time he complained about SD23's texts and I say some version of, "How would she know it bothers you? There is a lot of positive reinforcement for texting often."

Love this. You gently put it back in his court. Excellent.

Oh wow. It's amazing the forces we mount against someone who can be described as a waif.

The "asking questions" scenario is startling to a pwBPD , especially one in Waif mode, because they are specifically looking to you to rescue them, have the answer, be the expert, etc. It alleviates them of any responsibility or accountability for the action they then take.

"what ball? I didn't have a ball. I'm not even playing ball, that's ridiculous. Oh, wow, look at the rain! Was it supposed to rain today?"

All of this above perfectly illustrates how their waifiness is gaslighting, and why it's so difficult to share with others that don't understand BPD. Beyond validating. Thank you all.

My dream is to have a house that is comfortable for friends to come stay, but I know it will become SD23's summer residence. Yesterday we went to see a potential home for purchase and I nixed it for that reason.

We are in cahoots. Yes ma'am this is what I do. I made the mistake last year of talking to H about a new garage with an apartment. I love company, and we have a host of kids who will be transitioning to adulthood. Maybe make some money off a renter? Next thing I know, MIL is telling me that I am "allowed" to decorate the outside, but she will be decorating the inside of her new apartment. Oh   no.

We have a big house (we have 6 kids) and my downstairs makes me nervous. We just remodeled it and added a bedroom down there so kids wouldn't have to share rooms. A guest recently commented, "Oh wow you have lots of space, just turn this into an apartment for your mom." My heart dropped. H then said, "Yeah, that won't happen. My mother doesn't have a filter."  

His mom said some pretty awful things to him throughout his life that he kind of shrugs off but to me they are chilling to hear.

Hm. Has your H ever been to therapy for what he's been through?
 

I could identify with the pandemonium he'd experienced in his life without adding to it or judging it.

Interesting. Our story was really similar. We started as friends while his divorce was finalizing. I was 8 years out from a divorce and he sought my advice and found it grounding. He's told me over and over that one of the things he loves about me is that I'm independent. I don't need him (understanding BPD now, I see why the need doesn't appeal to him), but I want him, and that means a lot to him. On the flip side of that, dear MIL needs all of him and he's been so conditioned to respond without thinking...he seems to simultaneously love and hate being needed.

Only in passing. He seemed to view it as something BPD mom made SD23 do. SD23 is the victim, always. Victim = saint.

So H is really triangulating BPD mom too. What a frustrating dynamic.

That he was being smeared by saint SD23?

Honestly?

Satisfied. Because it was a peek under the waif wrapping paper. That happens to be what I see all the time. I guess it was validating.

I'm happy you had this validating experience. Nothing to goad over but it was a needed dose of realism backing up your experience.

One of the things I'm trying to understand in myself is where my compassion or empathy lies when it comes to SD23. Do you experience that with MIL?

I've had to separate true compassion from pity (helping out of guilt). I genuinely have compassion for MIL's experience - she was rejected by her mother, never knew her dad, lost her son to suicide, then her husband ten years later. She has chosen not to process her life's traumas.

Out of compassion, I have reset my expectations for our relationship, because I accept that her behavior will not change. Out of compassion, I release the desire to control or change her. I've set boundaries, as you so eloquently put, to create and protect the space for compassion, and to keep me in my own lane.

H has called me heartless, but I'm not. He's called my boundaries cold, and they're not. To be honest, he's hurt me far more than MIL has. I'm still working on having compassion for him. I feel alone, which is painful, so I'm all the more thankful for the support I get here.  

I want to feel unhooked, if that makes sense.

That's what I'm aiming for but some days I definitely feel disdain and petty.  

Yeah I get it. I think my remaining hooked-ness, disdain and pettiness are rooted in hurt. I am still smarting from all I've been through with them. It will dissipate, don't you think?

It's so hard to describe to people why that might hurt your feelings without it sounding like you're whining about nothing.

Thank you for letting me know that you get it. It's a huge sigh of relief. There have been times, even posting here, where I felt like I was overreacting. I get that these things alone aren't the end of the world, but over time, the behavior is draining.

To me, that is the menace about waif BPD. SD23 violates norms of civility in defensible ways.

Yessssss. I love how you put this.

Kind of like me with the jar. What's wrong asking H to open a jar while he's on the phone? Nothing. But in that moment I remind SD23 that I am here and for an instant the thing she's fighting for is taken away.

Also, though, motivation goes a long way. Of course you're not perfect, no one is, but you exude realism, compassion, and pragmatic wisdom. In that moment, I also see you exercising your energy and role as wife, rightly assuming that you are H's priority, his other half, always welcome. I don't think this was all petty. There are moments when it's wise to assert your position in gentle ways like this, don't you think?

[livednlearned]

buckle up, long post  

 

H misrepresents their historical relationship, frequently. He claims that his mom has always been his best friend, but that's factually not true...They became closer when he and I started dating, and they didn't start talking every day until about a year or more into our relationship.

I'm curious about this. Are you seeing this as cause and effect? If MIL is wooing him (ick), might that explain the relationship rewrite? If so, H would finally have something from mom he didn't get. It might not be the right thing to want or get, but perhaps it's better than the alternative? He knows how the alternative feels.

Any version of validating that their "amazingly close relationship" predated ours is validating the invalid

I can see why.

There is something really complex about what you've written that's hard for me to put into words. It's about the teeter totter effect of having strong boundaries vs being involved.

Are you seeing that giving H lots of room to experience his mom one-on-one is kind of bringing him around? Sort of like he is left to experience his own frustration with her maneuvers without interference?

The only reliable way for H to get fed up with SD23 is when we are out socializing and she tests his patience. He always takes her calls and texts but explains he can't talk long. One time she pushed him too far with, "no one cares about me, no one supports me, I'm alone in the world" and he pushed back (justify, defend, argue, explain). She countered with a statement about how he probably wants her institutionalized.

I just listened when he vented about her in the car, but what I wish I said was, "Help me understand what happened" and then be skilled enough to shine light on the pattern.

he is more likely to experience and be the brunt of her dysregulation, which could be a blessing in disguise and possibly the only thing that will make him realize what's happening.

So what is that like for you? Do you engage him when he reports back about dysregulations? How do you respond?

Has your H ever been to therapy for what he's been through?

No. In almost all ways, he is a really adjusted upbeat confident and successful guy. We went to a couple of therapy sessions together when SD23 came to live with us. And he has offered to go with me to see an MC but I know how important it is to see the right person and with the move plus covid, not to mention less SD23 drama (for now) we likely won't go. If there is any talk of her staying with us, I will insist we do this proactively.
 

he seems to simultaneously love and hate being needed.

Same with my H. SD23 seems to know precisely how to work this. If he gives her everything she wants, he feels good. If he even hints at a boundary, she plays a waif card, the one that implies he hasn't really helped her. The cumulative effect of that might be adding up but it's hard to know for sure.

She has chosen not to process her life's traumas.

That's an important way to phrase it. I will remember this! Thank you.

To be honest, he's hurt me far more than MIL has. I'm still working on having compassion for him

I completely understand. It's hard, isn't it?

I think my remaining hooked-ness, disdain and pettiness are rooted in hurt. I am still smarting from all I've been through with them. It will dissipate, don't you think?

I'm always braced for some fresh new hell. 

At the same time, I want to be present without avoiding or running from things. There is some of that for me, in addition to rolling my wheel in and out I do have a tendency to fold up my chair and leave. What I'm learning from friends here as well as skills and practice, is how to emotionally and psychologically step out of the triangle without physically removing myself.

The "asking questions" scenario is startling to a pwBPD , especially one in Waif mode, because they are specifically looking to you to rescue them, have the answer, be the expert, etc. It alleviates them of any responsibility or accountability for the action they then take.

Gagrl, you are really good at saying things succinctly  

[GaGrl]

Pursuing joy, was your H the golden child,faith his brother who died by suicide the scapegoat? I'm wondering because, with the death of the brother, his father might have taken the brunt of MOM's neediness, then with his dad's death, it all fell on him. It definitely changes the relationship.

When my sister was fighting what turned out to be terminal cancer, we were having a conversation about my mom's behaviors that were difficult for us to manage. My sister was somewhat of a GC -- at least she never moved away -- and if not a scapecoat, I definitely was a black sheep (divorced, moved away, left the church). In the conversation, I told my sister, "You have to get well. You can't leave me alone with Mother."

Well, that was 32 years ago this week, and I've stumbled through learning about boundaries and validation. I didn't think until 7-8 years ago that she might live with me some day. And she isn't even full-blown BPD! I have the utmost admiration for what you are doing in your family.

[Mata]

That's an amazing outcome for a first go, Mata. Do you think she decided to drop it rather than reflect on your question (which would assume some degree of responsibility for making a choice)?

Yes, I think so.

The "asking questions" scenario is startling to a pwBPD , especially one in Waif mode, because they are specifically looking to you to rescue them, have the answer, be the expert, etc. It alleviates them of any responsibility or accountability for the action they then take.

This makes so much sense.  I definitely feel like she is looking for me to solve her problem. 

Unfortunately, my asking questions success was tested tonight.  I dropped some groceries off for her, and she launched hard core into a waif-attack about wanting to move.  She pulled out all the emotional punches.  I wasn't expecting it, and it left me reeling.  I was trying to think of validating questions, or anything validating to say, but my mind was swimming, and I mostly just stood at the back of my car and nodded at her.  There was a guy standing near us, just staring at her melt-down/attack.  Soo uncomfortable. Finally, I managed to say something like, well you are going to have to figure out how that's going to work.  She didn't like that one bit. 


So, these observations about her not wanting to take responsibility are right on, I think.  She does not want to.  She wants me to fix it, and she's becoming angry and extra-waify to try and get me to jump into action.   

[Mata]

Ok good point . I guess I am trying to validate his feelings of disappointment, but it was never fair to expect his wife to take care of his mom.

Yes! Yes! Yes!  I would be totally unfair for me to expect my H to handle my mom.  When he used to step in, even though it was a relief, it also made me feel guilty/icky.  She's not his mom, and although he married me, he never signed up to deal with her  .

[livednlearned]

She wants me to fix it, and she's becoming angry and extra-waify to try and get me to jump into action.   

It might also be an extinction burst of sorts. Often there is this super big reaction when a new boundary is introduced, but your example makes me think it's just as likely to happen when there is any kind of shift that changes the status quo of maladaptive behavior. Kind of like, "You changed how you enable me. Wah. Now I have to try harder to get you to be like you were."

Also, dealing with a step child or inlaw has gotta be easier when it comes to making these shifts in person and in the moment. I am not as emotionally entangled with my step daughter so there is a buffer.

You are drawing on some serious strengths, Mata. I have the utmost respect. I know when H changes behaviors with SD23 he is met with a surprising amount of waif resistance that is almost designed to press his most sensitive buttons.

I have the privilege of being once-removed and so it isn't nearly as distressing.

[Mata]

I've had to separate true compassion from pity (helping out of guilt). I genuinely have compassion for MIL's experience - she was rejected by her mother, never knew her dad, lost her son to suicide, then her husband ten years later. She has chosen not to process her life's traumas.

I know I need to separate these more, there's a lot of hard-wired pity/guilt in my relationship with my mom.  I truly feel sad for her, her childhood was horrendous.  The fact she has BPD is no surprise.  But she also has chosen not to process many of her trauma's.  The most recent being her partner of 10 years.  He died 4 years ago, and she admittedly refuses to deal with it.  She's told me she just can't think about it.  But I know it is a major trigger for her abandonment issues. 

[Mata]

It might also be an extinction burst of sorts. Often there is this super big reaction when a new boundary is introduced, but your example makes me think it's just as likely to happen when there is any kind of shift that changes the status quo of maladaptive behavior. Kind of like, "You changed how you enable me. Wah. Now I have to try harder to get you to be like you were."

Oh, wow, yes this is exactly how tonight felt.   

You are drawing on some serious strengths, Mata. I have the utmost respect. I know when H changes behaviors with SD23 he is met with a surprising amount of waif resistance that is almost designed to press his most sensitive buttons.

Thank you.  The waif resistance is so hard to handle.  She'll push all my buttons - and she knows it because she installed those buttons throughout my childhood.  I'm sure it's confusing for her when I change the dynamic and some of the buttons don't work anymore.  She has to up the ante.

I have the privilege of being once-removed and so it isn't nearly as distressing.

This is validating to hear.  Sometimes I compare my reactions to her to H's reactions to her, and my inner critic tells me I'm weak because I get so distressed, whereas he can shake it off.   My H has said the same thing, that its easier for him because he doesn't have the history with her.  But inner critic just says he's being nice. 

[pursuingJoy]

I'm curious about this. Are you seeing this as cause and effect? If MIL is wooing him (ick), might that explain the relationship rewrite? If so, H would finally have something from mom he didn't get. It might not be the right thing to want or get, but perhaps it's better than the alternative? He knows how the alternative feels.

Pursuing joy, was your H the golden child,faith his brother who died by suicide the scapegoat?

You're both onto something here. I have to piece together what I see, because Hwill only talk about how wonderful she is. H says his brother called him the golden child and claimed that parents favored H. Family also accused MIL of favoring H and treating the brother badly, which resulted in family getting cut off. So I'd say yes, H was golden child.

From what zachira and others here have shared, the golden child doesn't really get needs met, though. They exist to support their parents and manage their emotions.

oohhh aha moment. Check out the timeline: In the three years after his dad died, MIL didn't get a chance to 'woo' him (ick) because he was too busy having an affair and destroying his already unhealthy marriage. I mean, he tanked his life. Seriously. (His counselor at the time chalked up his behavior to grief, but - rabbit trail - maybe he also knew what was expected of him and he was avoiding MIL.) He met me at the end of those three years. Life leveled out and H and MIL became closer. He then accepted his new position as Emotion Manager.

In the conversation, I told my sister, "You have to get well. You can't leave me alone with Mother."

Again, I can only surmise because H insists MIL is perfect, but sometimes I do wonder if he wishes he could say this...to his dad, to me...he would not only perceive this as his own weakness, it would also be an admission that she is not well.

I have the utmost admiration for what you are doing in your family.

Me? Look at YOU! You went from relying on your sister to handling all of it. The inner strength you've summoned to bring yourself where you are today is so incredible.

Are you seeing that giving H lots of room to experience his mom one-on-one is kind of bringing him around? Sort of like he is left to experience his own frustration with her maneuvers without interference?

Yes. Maybe. I don't know? He's made 2 or 3 comments in the past few months that make me think he might be seeing some of this. He is extremely secretive about their conversations. I've commented on it, we discussed it in one of our counseling sessions, to no avail.

It's not just about them, though. Having space from her (physical, because visits are structured, and emotional, because I step off the triangle) brings me back to baseline. I am happier and more enjoyable to live with. He's reminded of all the reasons we married. If he's going to sacrifice something with mom, it better be worth it. At least, that's what the marriage counselor said

One time she pushed him too far with, "no one cares about me, no one supports me, I'm alone in the world" and he pushed back (justify, defend, argue, explain). She countered with a statement about how he probably wants her institutionalized.

Oh wow 0-60 in T minus 3 seconds. That's quite a jump. What parent wants their child institutionalized?

I just listened when he vented about her in the car, but what I wish I said was, "Help me understand what happened" and then be skilled enough to shine light on the pattern.

So how would this convo have gone, ideally? Does he respond to validating questions?

So what is that like for you? Do you engage him when he reports back about dysregulations? How do you respond?

The only emotions he reports his mother having is "happy" and "depressed."  (She's been diagnosed with depression and chooses not to take medication or seek therapy.) He exhibits in-between anxious stage before 'depression' - he's distracted and worried.

Whatever her emotion, he absorbs and exudes it. Happy MIL? I ask him how that makes him feel, and it makes him happy, so I celebrate with him.

Depressed MIL? He blames me. He is anxious, dark, nervous, picky, sensitive, moody and angry. Our kids avoid him, because he has a hairtrigger temper. When he's like this, I listen (trying really hard not to validate the invalid).

H: "You'll regret not having a closer relationship with your mom. You just don't understand what it feels like to lose a parent. When they're gone, they're gone and you can't go back. I don't want to regret anything."

I've started asking him, "Will you have regrets? Do you feel good about what you're doing? Of course, some parts of this are outside of your control, like how I feel, but at the end of the day, can you respect yourself and can you say you've done your best?"

H: "Yes, I think I've done my best."

OR

H: "You don't understand. When your kids grow up and marry, and you don't like their spouse, or they're abusing your daughter, you will get involved. You won't be able to stay out of it. Mothers don't stay out of it. They can't."

Me: "It's important to me to model healthy relationships with my daughters, to talk to them about boundaries now, so that they are well-equipped to navigate relationships later in life. I also believe that once they marry, unless they ask for help, it's not my place to butt in and offer it. I may not do it perfectly, but I fully intend to let them live independent lives."

These are the two things he argues all the time. I'm learning to offer a range of responses. Come to think of it, I feel like Bill Murray in Ground Hog Day.

No. In almost all ways, he is a really adjusted upbeat confident and successful guy.

That's wonderful. Do you ever wonder if he were to process what happened, he might be more likely to see what's happening with SD23? For me, acknowledging my parents' faults and grieving the harm done (which can actually be a very normal part of individuating, I think) changed me. I was more likely to recognize boundary busters, and more confident about where my space was.

If there is any talk of her staying with us, I will insist we do this proactively.
  

Very smart. Is that an option, though?

The cumulative effect of that might be adding up but it's hard to know for sure.
 

Yeah, I get it.

I'm always braced for some fresh new hell.  

HA!

What I'm learning from friends here as well as skills and practice, is how to emotionally and psychologically step out of the triangle without physically removing myself.

Came across a podcast recently about inner boundaries that resonated with me.

Gagrl, you are really good at saying things succinctly  

for real!

[pursuingJoy]

Setting boundaries is messy, Mata, and I can imagine the scene your mom created in the parking lot was embarrassing. That's her stuff. you already know this, but let me be one more voice to affirm that just because she responds with anger doesn't mean you shouldn't have set the boundary. You've got this.

Yes! Yes! Yes!  I would be totally unfair for me to expect my H to handle my mom.  When he used to step in, even though it was a relief, it also made me feel guilty/icky.  She's not his mom, and although he married me, he never signed up to deal with her  .

Thank. You. So. Much. This is really validating to hear.  

But she also has chosen not to process many of her trauma's.  

I wish they knew that laying down this burden is painful and scary, but it's easier than carrying it, or trying to force others to carry it.

Do you ever find yourself drawn to kind mother figures? I've developed pseudo-parental relationships that have helped a little to heal some of what my parents hurt. I also try to be a warm and engaged mom, because of what I know.

[Methuen]

Pursuing joy, was your H the golden child,faith his brother who died by suicide the scapegoat? I'm wondering because, with the death of the brother, his father might have taken the brunt of MOM's neediness, then with his dad's death, it all fell on him. It definitely changes the relationship.

I'm going to chime in and say that I've been thinking about this angle too, based on my own experience.  I grew up with uBPD mom (Waif) and non-dad (Huntsmen).  I was the golden child (also an "only" child).  I had to be, although I didn't realize any of it at the time.  Enter perfectionist, over-achiever blah blah blah - whatever it took to win my mom's approval and keep the peace.  Explore my own interests?  ...would have never occurred to me.  I was living the vicarious life she didn't have as a child.  My extra-curricular activities were the things she never got to do.  Her and I were "one".  We were the same person.  We were very close at one time  . I was always very enmeshed with my mom (although I didn't come to see that until this past year - I'm 58).  About 18 years ago, my dad was diagnosed with Lewy Bodies (Parkinsonism with dementia).  That started to change the dynamic between me and mom, because dad couldn't be her rescuer any more.  Looking back, I realize now that he probably sheltered me from a lot.  Without understanding anything about BPD that was going on, I was forced to step in to rescue dad at times, from her abuse of him.  It was disgusting.  She used to call him a "retard" as his dementia progressed.    When dad died 15 years ago, the change in dynamic that had already started between her and I, hurtled to the new permanent dynamic.  Because dad was gone, she needed someone new to both be her rescuer and her WAIFINESS demanded a LOT of rescuing, and the person she NEEDED to dump her emotional   on.  By the time I landed here a year ago, I was ALL BLACK.  NO (and I mean NO) traces of the golden child that used to exist.

Since your BPD MIL lost her H and her son, I can see the likelihood that she would need to change the relationship with her son, and suddenly he becomes more GC and emotional caretaker for her.  It's all about her needs right?  The fact that they have a history (of not getting along) would just disappear and get forgotten because her current narrative has changed.  It likely just fell out of existence (like it did for my mom with me).  So now she massages him like playdough to meet her emotional needs.  Because he grew up as the black (or the "not golden") child, he might have an unconscious desire for her approval and ...tic/tac/toe...the new shoe fits for each of them, and they are both happy wearing the new pair.  

Just a theory.  If that resonates with your situation, recall that I suffered with my mom's waifiness (neediness) and rages for almost 15 years (after dad's death) before I landed here.  I sat with the label "BPD" for about 10 years before hitting my bottom and finding time to look into it in my life (career, family, raising two kids).  

The difference in your situation is that your H has you, your wisdom, your temperament, and your skills/knowledge about BPD walking the path beside him.  He's already half way there (whereas I knew NOTHING)... maybe he's just fighting "accepting" her mental illness, because for so long in his early life, he wasn't the "favoured" child.  Now that he is her favourite, he's hanging onto that for dear life. At some point, especially as she ages, she is going to push him too far, and I'm praying that he too will reach his bottom, and "accept" without condition, what is really going on.  BPD's simply can't help themselves, so I think this is possible.  If he's really really lucky, you'll still be there.  I don't know if there are any stats about how many "emotional caretakers" in a BPD relationship, never learn to differentiate and extricate themselves from an unhealthy relationship and transition to a healthier relationship with their pwBPD by using skills such as boundaries, not JADEing, SET, validating questions, and stepping outside the triangle.  I'm hoping that because he's got you, he figures it out, and quicker than I did.

If you decide to stay in the car, that's up to you. PJ can come out and give you a hug. But PJ has never said you can't set foot in our house."  

A guest recently commented, "Oh wow you have lots of space, just turn this into an apartment for your mom." My heart dropped. H then said, "Yeah, that won't happen. My mother doesn't have a filter."

These two comments from H, sound like BIG signs of progress!

I'm hopeful for you PJ.  Keep staying strong.

[GaGrl]

H blames you when MIL is depressed? I'm trying to figure out a good SET to keep handy that brings it back to MIL's personal responsibility for her health...

I know you would like MIL to be happy rather than depressed. (Not the best Support statement...help me out here.)

It must be difficult for you when you see and hear that she is sad.

She has been diagnosed with depression and given the option of medication, which she refuses, and that is her choice.

Ideas?

[Mata]

Setting boundaries is messy, Mata, and I can imagine the scene your mom created in the parking lot was embarrassing. That's her stuff. you already know this, but let me be one more voice to affirm that just because she responds with anger doesn't mean you shouldn't have set the boundary. You've got this.

Thanks, the extra reminder is always helpful!

Do you ever find yourself drawn to kind mother figures? I've developed pseudo-parental relationships that have helped a little to heal some of what my parents hurt. I also try to be a warm and engaged mom, because of what I know.

Yes, for sure.     

[pursuingJoy]

My extra-curricular activities were the things she never got to do.  Her and I were "one".  We were the same person.  We were very close at one time  .

So...I have these thoughts that aren't coming together just yet, so bear with me. Male/female roles were strongly enforced in H's family. Men were men. Period. MIL took golden child H to wrestling and soccer and football, but they never bonded the way you did with your mom, I think in part because they were opposite genders.

H has made comments like, "Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you."

 About 18 years ago, my dad was diagnosed with Lewy Bodies (Parkinsonism with dementia).  That started to change the dynamic between me and mom, because dad couldn't be her rescuer any more.  Looking back, I realize now that he probably sheltered me from a lot.  Without understanding anything about BPD that was going on, I was forced to step in to rescue dad at times, from her abuse of him.  It was disgusting.  She used to call him a "retard" as his dementia progressed.  

Just. Wow.  

When dad died 15 years ago, the change in dynamic that had already started between her and I, hurtled to the new permanent dynamic.  Because dad was gone, she needed someone new to both be her rescuer and her WAIFINESS demanded a LOT of rescuing, and the person she NEEDED to dump her emotional   on.  By the time I landed here a year ago, I was ALL BLACK.  NO (and I mean NO) traces of the golden child that used to exist.

How fascinating. She so desperately needed you to meet all of her needs but raged when you didn't do it well enough (kudos), so she shot herself in the foot. BPD is ironic like that.

H was also painted black (dark gray?) for the three years that he was engaged in an extramarital affair. MIL was distressed because his affair affected her. Her needs weren't being met.

So now she massages him like playdough to meet her emotional needs. Because he grew up as the black (or the "not golden") child, he might have an unconscious desire for her approval and ...tic/tac/toe...the new shoe fits for each of them, and they are both happy wearing the new pair.

So of the two kids he was the golden child...but like others here have shared, sometimes you can flip from GC to scapegoat, and back...and just because you were the GC does not mean your emotional needs were met. So he's left with a gaping hole, her massaging (ick) is attractive because he thinks his needs will be met. His family dynamic groomed him for this moment, so the shoe def fits. He's doing what he understands is the "right" thing to do. Right?

Just a theory.  If that resonates with your situation, recall that I suffered with my mom's waifiness (neediness) and rages for almost 15 years (after dad's death) before I landed here.  I sat with the label "BPD" for about 10 years before hitting my bottom and finding time to look into it in my life (career, family, raising two kids).  

You sharing this was both sobering and centering. I can't expect 46 years of conditioning to change overnight. Thanks M.

The difference in your situation is that your H has you, your wisdom, your temperament, and your skills/knowledge about BPD walking the path beside him.  He's already half way there (whereas I knew NOTHING)... maybe he's just fighting "accepting" her mental illness, because for so long in his early life, he wasn't the "favoured" child.  Now that he is her favourite, he's hanging onto that for dear life. At some point, especially as she ages, she is going to push him too far, and I'm praying that he too will reach his bottom, and "accept" without condition, what is really going on.  BPD's simply can't help themselves, so I think this is possible.  If he's really really lucky, you'll still be there.  I don't know if there are any stats about how many "emotional caretakers" in a BPD relationship, never learn to differentiate and extricate themselves from an unhealthy relationship and transition to a healthier relationship with their pwBPD by using skills such as boundaries, not JADEing, SET, validating questions, and stepping outside the triangle.  I'm hoping that because he's got you, he figures it out, and quicker than I did.

Again, thank you. He knows nothing about BPD, would never listen to any hint of mental illness, but maybe learning about boundaries and how to manage his mom will help. What I'm really worried about is that he'll run himself into the dirt. His body will give out before his mind gives way to any thought of possible weakness. His blood pressure is through the roof.

These two comments from H, sound like BIG signs of progress!

I'm hopeful for you PJ.  Keep staying strong.

Thanks for the encouragement, M. It goes a long way. I appreciate that I'm not alone in this muck and I have the blessing of listening to people like you that have taken this walk before me and can provide some guideposts.

[pursuingJoy]

H blames you when MIL is depressed? I'm trying to figure out a good SET to keep handy that brings it back to MIL's personal responsibility for her health...

I know you would like MIL to be happy rather than depressed. (Not the best Support statement...help me out here.)

It must be difficult for you when you see and hear that she is sad.

She has been diagnosed with depression and given the option of medication, which she refuses, and that is her choice.

Ideas?

I like this train of thought. For me, SET really starts with a state of mind: I'm not responsible for her, or his, emotions, even if something I'm doing is causing them to hurt. What I am responsible for is assessing, and reassessing, if the boundary is something I need. Is the boundary borne of hurt or vindictiveness, or is it something that protects a value, regardless of how it's perceived by MIL and H? Am I responsibly managing my own emotions throughout the setting of boundaries? 

When H gets emotional about how my boundaries are hurting his mom, I listen without defensiveness. I have validated his feelings and said, "I know it's hard to see your mom hurt." Every time, he looks at me, like that was an opening, with a "Well, then? What are you going to do about it?" kind of look. I stay calm, I don't take the bait, and I don't shift, but I would love to find a way to take the conversation in a productive direction.

If it's about her desperate loneliness, I could ask if her sisters and brother and cousins are still checking in on her, or if she has reached out to them. I could ask if she has ever expressed interest in getting involved or volunteering, the way she used to in her former hometown.

I really like the idea of bringing up medication and counseling. H always dismisses it and says, "You know mom won't do that" but I could plant the seed, a reminder that she does have agency.

What about being more direct? "Do you feel responsible for your mom's happiness?"

[pursuingJoy]

 
Thank you.  The waif resistance is so hard to handle.  She'll push all my buttons - and she knows it because she installed those buttons throughout my childhood.  I'm sure it's confusing for her when I change the dynamic and some of the buttons don't work anymore.  She has to up the ante.

Mata just went back and caught this. I love how you put this.

[formflier]

H has made comments like, "Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you."
 

I didn't realize this was the case.  

I have to wonder if this is an angle you can use to "take back the power" in the relationship..perhaps "destabilize" it in your favor.

"Destabilize" is not really my favorite word for this but I think it's ok.  Hang with me a sec.  pwBPD seem to have this uncanny ability to flip the world upside down on a stable situation.

One of the things that I started doing as I learned more about BPDish stuff was to "flip" things on them (in a healthy way), put them in catch 22 (with both options being healthy), vice end up in one myself.

There could be some logistical challenges (didn't MIL move a ways off?) but somehow I see using this angle to form a separate (and very limited/boundaried) r/s with MIL.

PJ..please imagine with me for a few minutes (and grin with me) about the following possibility.

What if...

What if you reached out to MIL directly (don't inform H) and invite her for something "girly" (outside of each others homes).

When H comes to you be reassuring and a bit dismissive..just a bit...because "it's just girl talk".

When and if you get with MIL and she wants to talk about hubby (her son), "Oh..let's not crowd our girl time by talking about men."

Is there a common "girly interest" that you guys share that could be a starting point for this?

After all, what could possibly be wrong with (insert girly stuff)

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Is there a common "girly interest" that you guys share that could be a starting point for this?

After all, what could possibly be wrong with (insert girly stuff)

Right? I thought this too so I tried this approach on numerous occasions.

Early on she asked me to take her clothes shopping for an outfit to a wedding. The moment she stepped inside the store, she went limp and waify. I accommodated and helped her settle on an outfit I thought was really cute on her. She wore a different outfit to the wedding and later she made a big deal of asking me to take her back to the store so she could return the outfit.

For Christmas one year I got her a gift card to a spa for a massage, or mani/pedi, or whatever. Years later, she returned the gift card to me and said she'd never use it.

We both enjoy gardening. She knew I wanted a trellis for a climbing rose so she said she wanted to buy me one. I drove her to the store, picked the trellis, exactly what I was looking for, and she said, "No, I don't like it. I'm not going to buy you that." I didn't like any of the others so we left without a trellis.

I've tried 'girl-talk', confiding in her about frustrations with kids, or housekeeping, or whatever. I learned the hard way that she tells everyone, everything, so keeping it surface is safe. I learned quickly not to "girl-talk" anything about H with her...she liked hearing negative things about him, and had an uncomfortable way of trying to align with me against H - nothing major, just, "Ugh. What we women have to put up with. His dad was the same way and I hated it. Men. Am I right?" I would abort and reply, "Your son is a wonderful husband and he has his faults, but I'm thankful."

It's not that any of these things, in and of themselves, were horribly hurtful. For her supposed desire of it, she never seemed fulfilled by 'girl-time' with me.

I've come to conclude that "mom needs girl time" is more than likely an excuse H uses to get help with his mom. MIL raised boys, but was responsible for and capable of meeting her 'girl-time' needs, even as a young mom. She currently gets lots of 'girl time' with her two sisters and three cousins.

[formflier]

So...flip it.  You are still making it about her  Make it about you and your needs for girl talk.

Plus..you know her now. 

Don't make it about "a thing"...it's about "time and talk" or if there is a thing, it gets consumed and can't be returned.

I always knew from your stories she was a piece of work, but I had no idea she was "olympic gold medal quality".  I mean...getting you to help her pick out a dress and then getting you to help return it...that's really next level.

And now you know.  Defer on giving your opinion, even reference the dress incident as being illustrative and yet it's ok.

Definitely keep it surface but also casually mention "just between us two", so...there is potential setup for something "healthy" in the future when there is a "leak".

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

He knows nothing about BPD, would never listen to any hint of mental illness, but maybe learning about boundaries and how to manage his mom will help. What I'm really worried about is that he'll run himself into the dirt. His body will give out before his mind gives way to any thought of possible weakness. His blood pressure is through the roof.

That his health is affected to such a degree really puts into perspective the strain of MIL's effect on him.

In terms of seeing change, doesn't it seem like some people have to run into the wall to know for sure it's brick.  .

I can see why you might not want to let that happen if it's having such a pronounced effect on his health.

Does your H see a connection between his blood pressure and coping with MIL?

"Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you"

This sounds like a triangulation tactic that comes with a heaping side dish of guilt.

I imagine H has a range of emotions when he deals with mom. You do a good job of seeing this and coaching him to investigate.

One of the silver linings of having BPD relationships in our lives is that they demand we investigate our own emotions because often those feelings provide clues to what is being communicated, especially guilt and shame.

What might be hard for your husband is when he uses guilt or shame to elicit a positive outcome and you refuse to engage in repair behaviors. That's probably frustrating to him. Maybe he then lashes out because he can't get an unexamined need met.

How do you think H might do with what FF has recommended here, phrases things as "Help me understand ..." ?

I tried that with my H and it seems to work better when things are more or less cooled off. In the heat of the moment, I have to be more direct, "I'm so confused right now ... I'm feeling surprisingly flooded and I do better when I've had a chance to get to baseline. I know this is important to both of us, so let's talk tonight or tomorrow. I need a chance to collect my thoughts."

My guess, too, is that the girl talk thing is actually two things. One is how your husband is handling this comment and what he is feeling and trying to accomplish, whether it's healthy or not (probably not). The other is more about engaging MIL proactively, which is maybe what FF is getting at.

Do you get the sense that T is hinting at this when encouraging you to participate? I do think there's a black belt skill that comes further along when other pieces are in place (like re?building and maintaining trust in your with H).

[formflier]

The other is more about engaging MIL proactively, which is maybe what FF is getting at.

Yes!  Proactive.  Let them respond to you, instead of you "responding" to them.

Many of us on here have been at this a long time, some with experience with several different BPDish people (nod to LnL in particular).

In general I think it's a natural flow of events to "first" figure out how to respond in a healthy way to really weird behavior (how is that for being polite).

However, once you have that down pat (nod to the OP PJ) there are a couple of ways to go about it.

On the one end there are boundaries and estrangement (semi-estrangement in my case from my inlaws) and on the other end of the spectrum is proactive engagement.

To keep it focused on the OP, I give thumbs up to the boundaries work and the analysis of behavior.

I still get a sense there is some "retreat" (maybe not the best word...but best I have at the moment) from MIL.  At least for me being in the "retreat" mode feels icky, even if it's less icky than letting them run rampant. 

Times when I've been proactive...I've felt really good about myself and "my part".

So...I'm suggesting this is something PJ think about some more.

I'm also going to suggest this could be helpful for hubby.

"you know babe..some stuff is best talked about between ladys."   Maybe it gets a little bit of introspection going on his part about what he and Mommy talk about.

And...last but not least.  The FF always loves it when proactive healthy behavior puts "them" on the defensive.  Wouldn't it be cool if Mom went on her "MIL's that are a handful" support board and was like "jeesh..that PJ is a handful..."      Bad FF...bad.


Best,

FF

[Methuen]

So...I have these thoughts that aren't coming together just yet, so bear with me. Male/female roles were strongly enforced in H's family. Men were men. Period. MIL took golden child H to wrestling and soccer and football, but they never bonded the way you did with your mom, I think in part because they were opposite genders.

This may have played a role.  Sounds like she came from a complicated FOO herself.  "Men were men.  Period."  So there's issues there.  But as the person who knows her, do you think it is possible she also has issues with "attachment"?  If she didn't have loving attachments from somewhere as a child, she might not have had the opportunity to be "wired up" to be "nurturing" when she became a parent.  I'm wondering, is her history known well enough to know if she ever had a healthy "bond" with an adult caregiver when she was a child?   For most healthy people, bonding kind of comes sort of naturally.  But for people that didn't grow up with healthy adults around them, they can end up with some bizarre ideas of "normal", of "love", of what a relationship should look like. Case in point, when my mom introduced me to her new beau (in his 70's), she (in her 70's) said to me (in my 50's) and him "now you two hug each other".  To her that meant we became family and would get along.  Clueless. So to get back to your point, maybe the gender thing plays a role, but for healthy parents, I don't know if the sex of the child is more or less significant than the ability to form healthy emotional bonds in the first place.  I'm just thinking and being curious out loud here.  I guess when I think of "bonding and attachment", I think of it within the definition of the healthy spectrum.  I was blessed with a really genuine loving father, so I also had the opportunity to "wire up" attachments within the healthy spectrum, but if I hadn't had my father, then a neighbour, or grandmother, or teacher could have also done the trick.

As to "bonding" with my mom, looking back, I don't know about this PJ.  Even as a child, she drove me crazy.  I spent a lot of time in the forest behind our house under a tree crying. Trees were my best friends (I was an only child).  She never came to look for me.  She left me alone at a bus stop when I was 4, and drove off.  I was there for a LONG time before other kids with their mother's came and waited for the bus taking us to our swimming lessons.  That doesn't really sound like a thing a "bonded" mother would do.  I'm more comfortable thinking about our relationship in my teen years and early adult life as emotional enmeshment, rather than a real "bond".  Looking at it now, I the child, was a tool to meet her needs.  Not much more than that.  As I got older (teen years), I would say she molded our relationship to be one of "best friends", but I was always doing what she wanted me to do, not what I wanted to do (I was the vessel through which she lived her dream childhood vicariously).  Sometimes it worked for me and I got something out of it, like when we travelled abroad together, but those things would always come back to "haunt" me because I always "owed" her.  She had me in music lessons (because that was "her" dream of what she wanted as a child).  Predictably, I practiced hard and performed well.  Left home to go to music school.  Also predictably, as soon as I left home, within 3 months I dropped out of music school and choose another career.  But I couldn't do that until I was away from her.  So, with all that in mind, if your H was the GC, the connection between your H and your MIL may be a pretty complicated web, beyond just the gender issue.  I think BPD's ideas are so distorted, and their emotional "holes" (abandonment, lack of self etc) are so intense, that their "defense" becomes how to use people to fill their own needs (including their own children).  We are just tools.  As one T pointed out once, mom does love me as best as she can, it's just that her toolbox for love is at about the developmental level of the average 13 year old (when her mother got sick and died and left her with a   of a father).

 Your MIL probably took your H to wrestling, soccer, and football because the optics were good...she looked like a good mother.  So when you say she did these things, but they never really bonded, that doesn't surprise me.  It's actually what I would expect.  It fits with my experience.  My mom took me to all the things she did because ultimately I made her look good. Again, after she had me, she found a way to use me as a tool to have her needs met (enter FOG).  I'm going to hazard a guess that maybe your H was pretty good at either wrestling, or soccer or football, or all of the above?  See where I'm going?  
  
H has made comments like, "Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you."

This is just so fascinating.  I did not see this coming in your story.  At. All.  So I'm thinking on this, and analyzing...  
- mom desperately wants a real relationship (maybe with a female friend, maybe not).  
- your H has interpreted this to mean she wants it with you.  But does she really?
- you have made her piece of the pie she gets with H a lot smaller.  We all know how some BPD mom's can typically try to drive a wedge with DIL so they can have their son all to themselves
- the relationship your H thinks she wants with you, seems to be the one she is working on H to have...maybe?  

I mean she seems to be dedicating a lot of time to your H, and a lot of emotional energy into her relationship with him, and against you...  so confusing!

On the other hand, maybe she does desperately want a r/s with you, but at some point, you didn't validate or fill or needs, so you became all BLACK.  Thus the intensity of the Karpman triangle...

Enter FF's idea of turning the tables, and working the game to foster a "girly" connection with her.  

If this could work, it could definitely change up the dynamic.  

So where would her new scapegoat come from?  A BPD's always got to have a scapegoat.  Her H passed.  A son passed.  It currently seems like you are a scapegoat of sorts.  Does she have other people in her life who could become her scapegoat?  

The problem I see with fostering the "girly" relationship, is that it would be really hard to maintain genuineness through all her shananagans, and maintain a genuine conversation through all the crazy thoughts and ideas that would probably come out of her mouth, especially when she pushes buttons to create drama...and a BPD always sees through the disingenuous...

How fascinating. She so desperately needed you to meet all of her needs but raged when you didn't do it well enough, so she shot herself in the foot. BPD is ironic like that.

Yep, that's BPD.

 

He's doing what he understands is the "right" thing to do. Right?

Yes, I get the sense he's trying really hard to please his mom.  I did this too.  It wore me into the ground, and then I landed on this forum.  

You mention that he wouldn't be open to considering her state of mental wellness (or not)?  Why do you think this is?  Does he have a closed mind about other things?  Or just this?

[Mata]

So...I have these thoughts that aren't coming together just yet, so bear with me. Male/female roles were strongly enforced in H's family. Men were men. Period. MIL took golden child H to wrestling and soccer and football, but they never bonded the way you did with your mom, I think in part because they were opposite genders.

H has made comments like, "Mom was the only girl in the family, that's why she so desperately wants a relationship with you."

Interesting.  I have a little different take on this.  I don't think this statement is actually about MIL or what she wants.  I read it as more H trying to understand/rationalize MILs BPD behavior. 
 
If H doesn't understand her BPD behavior for what it is, then when she "desperately" wants a relationship with someone, he doesn't know her behavior is rooted in fear, abandonment, etc.  Yet he still probably senses that her behavior isn't "normal."  So he goes looking for a way to explain it.  Maybe because of the male/female dynamics in his family, the "because she's the only girl" reasoning makes sense to him.  Being the only girl in a family is probably a more palatable explanation than the reality that she has a mental illness.

I also read that statement as FOG to try and convince you to get on board and meet MILs needs too (aka have a relationship with her). 

[I Am Redeemed]

Interesting.  I have a little different take on this.  I don't think this statement is actually about MIL or what she wants.  I read it as more H trying to understand/rationalize MILs BPD behavior. 
 
If H doesn't understand her BPD behavior for what it is, then when she "desperately" wants a relationship with someone, he doesn't know her behavior is rooted in fear, abandonment, etc.  Yet he still probably senses that her behavior isn't "normal."  So he goes looking for a way to explain it.  Maybe because of the male/female dynamics in his family, the "because she's the only girl" reasoning makes sense to him.  Being the only girl in a family is probably a more palatable explanation than the reality that she has a mental illness.

I also read that statement as FOG to try and convince you to get on board and meet MILs needs too (aka have a relationship with her). 

Mata, I think this is really insightful and I am inclined to agree with your perspective. It seems that PJ's H consistently looks for reasons to rationalize and justify her behavior, and enlist others to enable her to take some of the burden of him. Unconsciously, of course, because he seems to have almost zero awareness of the dynamics at play and even his own feelings (understandable, there probably hasn't been much room for his own feelings and any that land in her sights are used to manipulate him).

Methuen. Your post about your mom living vicariously through you with the music lessons and such just lit up my whole nervous system. For those of you who don't know, my half sister with narcissistic traits (twenty-one years older than me) basically raised me (following a suicide attempt and subsequent stroke that left my mother permanently disabled.) This is exactly the kind of thing I experienced as a child. I was taught to read by my sister at age 3. I took dance lessons, violin and piano lessons, computer classes, and French lessons all before age 6. I was even dragged to auditions for commercials (and landed two of them). The difference is that if I showed even the slightest disinterest (not wanting to do a lesson or an audition because I was, you know, a kid, and was having a moody kid moment one day) the activity would be discontinued and the search for another activity would be on (tennis lessons, swim lessons, etc. I was in seven different extra-curricular activities before age 10). Like you said, I existed to make her look good. And like you, I flipped from golden child to scapegoat when I failed to live up to the perfect product of her impeccable parenting that she needed me to be to validate herself.

I wonder if that may be a driving factor in MIL's behavior- she needs her son to have the "perfect marriage" complete with an enmeshed DIL to validate her parenting.

[pursuingJoy]

In terms of seeing change, doesn't it seem like some people have to run into the wall to know for sure it's brick.  .

Sigh.

Does your H see a connection between his blood pressure and coping with MIL?

Nope.
 

This sounds like a triangulation tactic that comes with a heaping side dish of guilt.

Agree. I can't make the pieces line up in any other logical way. She was raised by and close to her grandmother, very close to her sister and two girl cousins. She had 4 best friends she would run around with while raising her two sons. When I reached out with girl stuff, it fell flat.

I imagine H has a range of emotions when he deals with mom. You do a good job of seeing this and coaching him to investigate.

One of the silver linings of having BPD relationships in our lives is that they demand we investigate our own emotions because often those feelings provide clues to what is being communicated, especially guilt and shame.

This is such a good point. I've noticed parenting has the same effect.

How do you think H might do with what FF has recommended here, phrases things as "Help me understand ..." ?

I will say that (1) accepting that MIL and H will not change, and (2) it's not personal, it's their stuff, and (3) learning how to ask validating questions has completely changed my communication with H. It's improved greatly.

The other is more about engaging MIL proactively, which is maybe what FF is getting at.

Yes!  Proactive.  Let them respond to you, instead of you "responding" to them.

I still get a sense there is some "retreat" (maybe not the best word...but best I have at the moment) from MIL.  At least for me being in the "retreat" mode feels icky, even if it's less icky than letting them run rampant.  
[/quote]

Very insightful FF and lnl. Retreating is my default and the T challenged me to lean into it, not away from it.

After our big conflict last year, I invited MIL to our house for her son's birthday, an invitation she declined. Two months later I planned a family outing to an alpaca farm, which she accepted. I planned Thanksgiving and Christmas at her place, then a month later joined H and MIL for a 2 hour road trip to a funeral. The outcome wasn't always positive but you're right, FF, I felt good about the efforts I made. I will continue looking for ways to be proactive.

If nothing else, it provides perspective for H. In one therapy session, H said, "pj has done NOTHING, she just shut MIL out." The therapist challenged that, pointing out all of the things I'd done proactively to include and see MIL. T asked, "How many things has MIL done to reach out to pj?" H sat quietly.

I will say that there is no version of private, one one one conversation with MIL that feels wise. She has frequently twisted the narrative and used what I've said as fuel. Maybe that's retreat, and maybe it's wisdom. It's always worth reviewing intentions and I will continue to seek opportunities to be proactive. Great advice!

Interesting.  I have a little different take on this.  I don't think this statement is actually about MIL or what she wants.  I read it as more H trying to understand/rationalize MILs BPD behavior.  
 
If H doesn't understand her BPD behavior for what it is, then when she "desperately" wants a relationship with someone, he doesn't know her behavior is rooted in fear, abandonment, etc.  Yet he still probably senses that her behavior isn't "normal."  So he goes looking for a way to explain it.  Maybe because of the male/female dynamics in his family, the "because she's the only girl" reasoning makes sense to him.  Being the only girl in a family is probably a more palatable explanation than the reality that she has a mental illness.

I also read that statement as FOG to try and convince you to get on board and meet MILs needs too (aka have a relationship with her).  

This was my take too, Mata. He has a series of tactics that he's employed, and from all of the data that I've taken in, I think this is one more.

I also agree that this excuse and others are absolutely more palatable than mental illness.

You mention that he wouldn't be open to considering her state of mental wellness (or not)?  Why do you think this is?  Does he have a closed mind about other things?  Or just this?

H and MIL both have a strong aversion to mental illness. It's part of the reason I believe the T cautioned against telling him about BPD. A few examples:

He's a former Army vet and reacts with strong emotion to any talk of PTSD. It's weakness, a symptom of a weak generation, an excuse to work the system and not have to fulfill your responsibilities. After all, WWII vets got by. PTSD is an invention. (Ironically, he talks about his own grandfather getting "so messed up in the war, he became an alcoholic and drank himself to death.") In the moment, I can counter with logic, and he calms down and admits that mental illness is real, but next time he sees that commercial about veterans, he'll go off on the same rant.

SD12 was diagnosed with ADHD when she was 6 and for years he felt strong emotions and resisted - shame? denial? He finally, partially accepted the Dr's official diagnosis, but almost 6 years in, he talks to her about "just trying harder to control her impulses." He's made some progress, at least now he doesn't let her go without medication when she stays with us. I've had some good talks with him about how a child's mental illness can trigger shame in a parent. He's open to talking.

H has undergone surgery without pain medication. He had his ACL replaced two years ago and never took pain meds, other than what the Dr. gave him right after surgery.

MIL was talking to me once about her depression. Knowing she doesn't take prescriptions to treat it, I asked if she took a multivitamin (I'd read that deficiencies can sometimes contribute). She said no, "My husband thought medication of any kind was a weakness. So no I don't take anything unless I absolutely have to."

She's mentioned that she gives her dog a half-dosage of her Xanax when they travel, because the dog has anxiety.

[I Am Redeemed]

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