My (tricky) story - a different perspective...

[tvda]

Hi all. Here’s my (ongoing) story… It’s a bit of a twist on the typical stories here… It cost me a lot of effort and energy to write this down somehow… And I want to start with a couple big points right away, to speed up things.

1) She seems like a discouraged/quiet BPD. But undiagnosed and unaware.

2) I have a savior complex. Always have. The reasons for this are clear to me, and I’ve had plenty of therapy for this, because for some reasons I keep falling for ‘helpless’ cluster-B types, and it’s caused me a lot of hardship over the years.

3) Here the big kicker: I am ‘the other man’. We met when she was, and she still is, in an abusive relationship with an NPD (very narcissistic personality). She is clearly abused by him, and has been very unhappy and suffering for years in this relationship, as have her children. Of course BPDs and NPDs are “a match made in hell” – but a match nonetheless

4) I have a VERY hard time seeing clearly because the symptoms of victims of narcissistic abuse and the symptoms of quite borderline personality disorder overlap so much: loss of self identity, dissociation, etc…

A summary of what I’m about to write: I am ‘hanging on’ in a situationship where she is trying to leave her abusive relationship for me (or claims so), but keeps getting trapped by her NPD partner, through manipulation, threats, blackmail and other ugly stuff.

Our push-pull cycle is: her working up the courage to leave, going into confrontation with her partner, then dissociating from all the stress and conflict he causes (remember BPDs are very sensitive to stress), losing all sense of self or identity and becoming a ghost of herself, and distancing in a cloud of depression. Then after a while, when she is ‘rewarded’ by her NPD partner for staying, she gets more peace in her head and exits her dissociative state. And seeks out closer contact with me again. And the cycle begins again...

In parallel there is a cycle with her NPD partner as well, making everything extra confusing. She goes from the inevitable big emotional conflict with him, with decisions of leaving, to being overstressed, tired of fighting and giving up and staying. There is a lot of learned helplessness here.

Making things even harder: her daughters and ex partner are actively rooting for me, and have contacted me many times telling me how they wished she would leave her abusive relationship and "pick me". In the meantime she is distancing herself from me, and growing more depressed and full of guilt and self blame by the week. I fear she is close to the point of just "giving up" as this whole situation is just too difficult... Her NPD partner of course actively brainwashes her to make her feel as guilty and unworthy of love as possible.

In short my challenge is: how do you get a (quiet) BPD to leave her abusive relationship – or just give up and move on? I don’t have stories about cheating or big abuse. I have a story about a very sweet quiet BPD (I think), who keeps losing her sense of self and is unable to get out of a relationship of abuse - partly because of very weak boundaries.

My two biggest wishes:
1) Finding the strength and courage to keep on ‘fighting’ - for now...
2) Finding an answer to the question: is there any sense or hope in fighting, or is this a lost cause because she either will never be able to leave her abusive relationship, or is truly a BPD who will always act destructively toward both me and herself…

I guess that's the start... I'll admit it is hard to write this... And part of it is being scared of people telling me to "run, don't walk" because of all the red flags...

Any advice or input is much appreciated...

p.s. there is more than a hint of self-defeating or masochistic personality disorder at play as well. For the record: masochistic personality disorder has nothing to do with sexual masochism, but rather making the choices in life that make life the hardest and most difficult for yourself...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tvda]

I just realised I left out "the timeline" of my story...

We had 9 months of a very blissful relationship or affair, call it what you want, that you could call idealisation. Not overly fast, but very intense and committed.

Then her partner discovered, six months ago now... And made a lot of (false) promises of change, pleading for one more chance, promising her that they would once again be happy, that he realised the errors of his ways, that he would go into therapy...

None of these promises ever materialised, of course, and everything has sort of gone to sh*t since then, with her descending ever further into a fog of dissociation, loss of identity and general depression. She told him things were over numerously, but he just "refused the breakup". And sadly, without his 'cooperation', as a mom of three with a modest wage, he sort of has her imprisoned. He just flat out says: "okay, then leave me", knowing full well that she can't go anywhere, even if just for financial reasons, unless they come to an understanding. And then he starts threatening that he'll take her son away, that she won't see a penny of the (jointly owned) house, etc... And after a while she just gives up, tired, exhausted and hopeless...

[once removed]

We had 9 months of a very blissful relationship or affair, call it what you want, that you could call idealisation. Not overly fast, but very intense and committed.

what were the circumstances under which the relationship/affair started? how did the two of you meet, and what was your relationship like before it became romantic?

[tvda]

Hi OnceRemoved,

We met totally by chance. We didn't know eachother at all but we met, clicked and connected online trough a common friend. Started talking in a friendly manner, nothing fiery or sexual. After a while it became a habit of texting eachother on a daily basis, so the emotional connection grew, and it became clear that she had been very, very unhappy in her relationship for years now, and would have left years ago had she had the financial means to do so on her own.

We talked for two months and decided to meet up in real life. We saw eachother the first time and had a wonderful evening together, but nothing physical happened. The week after that we talked about how to handle this. I didn't want to be a homewrecker, and she did not take 'cheating' lightly, as her ex-partner and father of her two oldest kids had cheated on her, leading to her ending that relationship.

In the end, she sort of said that given her situation of sort of being in a prison (not having the money to move out on her own, and working for the family in law), but the fact that her relationship with her partner had basically been over for years except for a toxic sharing a house situation, we made a conscious decision to go for it, and we started seeing eachother regularly, on a weekly basis, and talk daily.

The more I learned about her situation, the clearer it became that she was a victim of narcissistic abuse. With CPTSD as a result. Then six months upon his discovery the abuse multiplied tenfold, and she has been in a fog of confusion, depression, dissociation and loss of self ever since. And as I said, a push-pull cycle with her giving up on us because she feels it's hopeless (once again: without his cooperation she basically can not afford to rent a place of her own for her and three kids - because she also needs to keep on paying half the mortgage of her current house), then saying "no, I don't want to give up on our love".

One of the things that confuses me to no end is that the symptoms of CPTSD and quite BPD overlap immensely... And given her youth and current situation CPTSD is almost a given... The guy is a diagnosed NPD by the way. Living with an NPD partner is bound to create CPTSD. But then again living with an NPD partner is also something BPDs just "love to do".

Or to put my predicament in really simple terms:
- if it is CPTSD then I don't want to give up on the woman I love and abandon her in an abusive relationship
- if it is BPD then I better get out and save myself, because chances are it's not going to get better than this...

Right now my only option seems like it is toughing it out, supporting her and waiting for her to find the strength (and therapy) to stand up to her NPD partner - or to clearly see that she has BPD, which is difficult with a quiet BPD. Even more so because of the similarity to CPTSD which is logical given her past and current situation. But toughing it out costs me a lot of mental energy, to be honest...

[Notwendy]

You seem to be insightful about relationship dynamics and it's good that you are aware of your own rescuer tendencies and how that impacts your attraction. I see some red flags here that you may want to consider.

This relationship is a triangle and it may need to be a triangle to perpetuate the prefered roles of the people involved. As much as you wish she'd leave her husband, if she did, she would no longer be in victim role and you would no longer be in rescuer role. If your mutual relationship is built in part on each of you being in this kind of dynamic, it may be that it isn't sustainable without a persecutor. Should this happen, the role of persecutor might be filled with someone else.

Another possible scenario is that, if she's idealizing you and you are benefitting from being her rescuer- because this role is attractive to you- were she to leave her H, this might change. You might not "feel the love" anymore. She might not either and seek out another rescuer from you, and form another triangle.

You are getting the "good stuff" now. She's married to someone else and so they are dealing with the real life stuff. Bills to be paid, every day life, someone waking up in a bad mood. This daily stuff that isn't present in an affair where two people can long to be together, finally meet up and have it be passionate and brief.

You are hearing one side of the story- hers. Yes, her H may be an abusive cad, but you don't know his perspective. This isn't to blame the victim of DV, that's real, but is it abuse or how she perceives it? Or how she presents it.

This isn't about whether or not she has BPD and if it's worth staying or not. Any relationship involved dynamics between people and in this case, a triangle. This has started out with her being victim, and you being the rescuer, something that appeals to you. But for these roles to play out there needs to be a persecutor. This might be a factor in her not leaving the relationship she's in.

Do you wait this out or decide it's too much stress on you? The answer might be more with you than if there's any diagnosis for her. It's your strong attraction to the rescuer role that is part of this feeling of connection with women who need rescuing. You have had therapy and so you know that you could then find yourself to be attracted to someone else who needs rescuing. So it may be - do you want to continue being a rescuer that is the larger question?

[tvda]

Hi NotWendy, and thanks for your insightful response... Very good point about the drama triangle... I've seen that diagram soo many times, and somehow failed to fill out the personas with the three of us - even though it's very obvious.

But see, that's where it's soo hard to see clearly: it's wellknown that victims of emotional abuse can hardly escape their situation of abuse without 'outside help'. And that naturally leads to, if someone does offer help, a rescuer / victim / perpetrator situation. You are spot on with your observation of the drama triangle. But I have no way of seeing now if this is a natural concurrence with her situation, or part of a personality disorder.

There have been times when I wondered if maybe she preferred being the victim and getting the attention that goes along with it to actually getting out of her situation. Once again that's part of my confusion: an abuse victim with CPTSD typically feels powerless, weak and confused.

You also make a good point about this being my own decision... Wether it is CPTSD or quiet BPD, the 'treatment' I get is the same... Where I am standing right now is getting her to a better therapist and hoping this brings improvement or clarity. She is in therapy, but unfortunately I have the feeling that he is a very bad therapist for her. He knows the NPD's family intimately, and has his own issues with a narcissistic father that seem to cloud his judgement and actually make the therapy toxic for her.

You are hearing one side of the story- hers. Yes, her H may be an abusive cad, but you don't know his perspective. This isn't to blame the victim of DV, that's real, but is it abuse or how she perceives it? Or how she presents it.

Regarding the above: sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. I went to a therapist for myself and described the situation. Her first question was: "Is his name XXX?" - that was his name, for sure. The therapist immediately told me "He has really strong NPD. He was in couples counseling with me when in a previous relationship, and trust me, I have an inch-thick file on him." For clarity: the ethics of this therapist are questionable in divulging patient information, to be honest, but he is officially diagnosed. And I get to hear not only her part of the story, but also that of her children, ex-partner and a couple of acquaintances.

To be honest, she is so beaten down that she actually hardly sees the abuse. She thinks it's all part of a normal relationship. It is what she learned growing up as an only child with a cold and neglectful mother. Just to tell you that she's not the one giving me a big sob story about abuse. I actually kept my nose out of making judgements about him until I got to hear the stories from the kids about his abuse towards them.

You are getting the "good stuff" now.

I wish... I am getting the really hard stuff. The dissociation, the general depression, the self blame and guilt. Of course this triggers my rescuer reaction. No denying that. And no denying that my rescuer complex has kept me in this situation far longer than most would have stayed. That's one area where my own issues cause me to have a weak boundary.

[khibomsis]

tvda, I too don't really think it matters what her diagnosis is. It matters what yours is. Because whether you stay or leave, until you change, you are going to keep attracting the same energy into your life.

You mention repetition compulsion in another post. I  just discovered the concept a couple of weeks back, it helped me understand the pattern of emotional trainwrecks in my own relationship history. So that is what I am working on in therapy.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with helping people. In Africa we are more communally oriented and so the dividing line between helping people and co-dependency is a little blurrier than in the West. As a rough rule of thumb, I ask myself what is in it for me? Is it truly altruistic? In the case of my relationships, I get to enact my repetition compulsion=codependency. I would be interested in your relationship history in the light of your patterns?

Bottom line: if you want to help her, it would be as a friend. In abuse cases, pretty much the last thing she needs is further complications. And though support is critical, at the end of the day she has to find the power within her to leave. Nothing else is going to work.  I used somebody like that for 2 years in my second marriage, when it went south I had an emotional affair with a person whom I subjected to the torture of hearing all about my abuse. It was so completely unlike me, I have never been unfaithful in thought or deed before or since. It was the fact that I was acting so completely out of character that eventually obliged me to reflect on why I was doing it.  I feel so ashamed when I think of it now, though I have apologized many, many times and made reparations as is appropriate in my culture. She had the strength to eventually go NC with me and the lack of a vent then forced me to confront the issues  in my marriage and end it.  The weird thing is then I no longer felt any attraction for her, or any need to contact her after that. Having sorted out the root cause of my unhappiness, her function became redundant.  A word to the wise...

[kells76]

Hi tvda, kudos for finding the strength to share your story. I recognize that you're "putting yourself out there" with us, and I acknowledge the determination that took.

I'm thinking along the same lines as khibomsis:

Bottom line: if you want to help her, it would be as a friend. In abuse cases, pretty much the last thing she needs is further complications. And though support is critical, at the end of the day she has to find the power within her to leave. Nothing else is going to work.

There's the Bible story about King Solomon and the two women who each asserted that the baby was theirs and not the other woman's. To kind of "out" who was the real mom, Solomon suggested "Hey, how about I cut the baby in half, and you each get half, that's fair". One woman said "Sure, sounds fair to me too" but the other woman pleaded that if that was the case, just give the baby to the first woman. Solomon knew then that the second woman was the real mom.

She wanted health (truth) over fairness, even if it meant she couldn't have her own child.

So, while it's not a perfect analogy/parallel, it did come to mind as I read your story and your concerns for the woman in your life.

Am I correct to guess that if the choice is between "she is free and healthy, but we are not together" versus "we're together, but she's not healthy", you'd go with #1? Is that your guiding motivation?

I ask this because I think there is a way to reality test what's going on.

One of the implicit red flags I sense about this situation is a tacit message that "tvda is the only one who can help".

What if, as khibomsis suggested, there were another way? What if the role you took was more "point her to resources" -- certainly there are DV centers in your area?

I don't mean this to sound harsh... I am sort of working out on screen here an alternative scenario... it's just that -- she does have time alone to be with you, right? What would it be like if she used that time alone instead to contact a DV center, come up with a safety plan, connect with a peer support group, investigate shelter situations, etc?

It is admirable if what you want for her most of all is that she be in a healthy situation. That's a good and positive thing to want for anyone.

The question I have is... is it you and her together that you want most of all? Or, her healthy? Would it be OK with you if (hypothetically) she found the strength within herself to get healthy, and then, as in khibomsis' experience, she didn't "need" you any more?

My sense is that once you can get to a place, in your own personal work, where you don't need her to need only you, you will have a healthier foundation for a relationship. And, if she can let go of any tacit working beliefs that "tvda is the only one who can help me", then she, too, will be in a healthier place for a relationship. Both of those healthier places would involve her using 3rd party resources  -- i.e., letting go of the idea that "there is only one person who can help me, and it's a person I have an attraction to". It's building the healthier idea that "I am the only one who can help me, and it's by finding my own strength to reach out to many".

I'm over here from the coparenting board, where many of us have partners whose exes have BPD traits, and there are kids/step kids involved. A common saying comes from commercial airline flights -- put on your own oxygen mask first, before helping others put on their masks. We can't truly help others (step kids, partners, etc) unless we are healthy first. I am struggling with that even as I write to you. I have a lot of baggage about invalidation and my own dysfunctional dealing with conflict. If I can't or don't work on myself first, then there's no way I can be in a place to work together with my husband, and we can't make changes for the kids.

Guess that's all to say that it's not like I'm "standing above you, pointing down" at what you should do. I am really right there next to you, and we are both working out what to do, on the same level.

And yeah, please do take what khibomsis suggests to heart.

[tvda]

Hi all. Thanks for all the support, and thanks for all the insights. Lots of valid points. Lots of things I had already considered and/or tried. I need some time to gather my thoughts and reflect, and think about how to best put things in words. But already: thank you very much for your concern and input. You've given me plenty to think about.

[tvda]

Hi all... Some feedback from my side...

The question I have is... is it you and her together that you want most of all? Or, her healthy? Would it be OK with you if (hypothetically) she found the strength within herself to get healthy, and then, as in khibomsis' experience, she didn't "need" you any more?

Given my rescuer complex I lean strongly towards her being happy and free as my biggest goal. Of course that makes things problematic in another way - as this REALLY puts me in the rescuer role, in the sense that I'm willing to give up the things I want for her.

I have also stated many times, when I saw her drowning in the chaos of this difficult situation, that it hurts me so to see her succumb to stress, that I would rather remove myself from the equation just so that she can get some rest in her head. This has happened three times so far. However, she always reconnected with me and said it just makes her unhappy to give up, and that she wants to still fight. An abuse victim with CPTSD or Borderline push-pull, who can tell...

she does have time alone to be with you, right?

Hardly. She is being stalked, tracked by GPS and even wiretapped somehow, we have discovered. She is living in an environment of fear, control and terror.

What if, as khibomsis suggested, there were another way? What if the role you took was more "point her to resources" -- certainly there are DV centers in your area?

Naturally I don't think I can or should be her makeshift therapist. So I do try to 'point her to resources'. But she needs a bit more support than that I'm afraid... Her partner is sabotaging her efforts to go to therapy, e.g. by flat out saying "Well, I'm out drinking beers with my buddies that night so I'm not taking care of the kids".

As these things go, her parents are not there to help. Her mom is cold and distant, and of course lies at the root of a lot of problems. And the NPD partner has successfully isolated her from her own support network over the course of years. So if he 'magically' has his night out planned at the time of her therapy session, guess what happens? She has to cancel because no one can take the kids.

Yes, the abuse is very strong... Which puts me in a position where just pointing to a good therapist or resource is not enough... Because she just 'gives up', and feels it's hopeless... There is a need for a lot of emotional support as well as the right treatment. Always remember that she is still actively being manipulated and abused.

Of course all of you are right. There is only one person that can do the work on herself, and that is she. But in situations of abuse it is well known that you can hardly ever make it out alone.

I am willing to (hesitantly) do this as a friend.

But as it stands now all of this may be moot, since she is distancing ever more... My position now is that I'm offering to be there for her, but won't force myself. And that if she lets go (as she seems to be doing now) I will let her do this.

Regarding DV-centers: there is no demonstrable domestic abuse, as it is all about emotional abuse through manipulation. And as often goes with victims of abuse she is not even sure if it really IS abuse. Stockholm syndrome. She even defends him sometimes - even the time he hit her daughter (there were only two times he got physical).

Sigh... It just makes me sad and confused... I think I'm going to tough it out a little longer, and just 'go with her flow' - and observe what happens regarding push-pull cycles.

I did a lot of reading about CPTSD and BPD this weekend. Unfortunately, especially for the quiet BPD the symptoms are extremely similar. I think the only difference is a nuance in duration of unstable affect... I will be trying to keep an eye out for that. But as we don't have a lot of contact anymore (outside of a weekly moment during her lunch break) even that is hard to monitor...

Reading what I just typed it strikes me how powerless I am in all of this... Sometimes a part of me even wishes that she just completely distances herself and let's me go, so I can work on acceptance and letting go myself. I will keep you guys posted on how things move on in this thread, in the hope of getting some clarity and improvement, for myself and if possible her.

And I am going to try and move to the center of the drama triangle. Although the practical tips on how to do this are hard to find...

[khibomsis]

tvda, it is good to see you working hard and processing. I understand your hesitation about being a rescuer, and this is why it is important that you are aware of your own motives. It has been well demonstrated that genuine altruism increases happiness: https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1153&context=mapp_capstone
Co-dependency, on the other hand, is pretty much guaranteed to make you unhappy. Trust me, I know  I want to suggest that if your woman leaves her husband "for you", it will land you in a situation where you will feel responsible for her and her kids. Are you ready for that? If things go awry, how will you react when she blames you?

Therapeutically, I believe the standard recommendation is that she would need to be separated for at least two years before you and her can realistically expect to have an authentic relationship. It may be that she is able to detach emotionally much faster but in an abuse situation it is unlikely. That means that your relationship will be defined by her emotional absence in its early days. That is the reason why relationships that begin as affairs have really low survival rates: https://www.regain.us/advice/infidelity/how-do-affairs-end-usually/
You deserve better than this, and so does she.

Then you add the possible pathologies and you can see why we are suggesting that the friendzone is safer for you, for now.

Domestic abuse services will be very capable of dealing with emotional abuse, it is a truism in the field that emotional abuse precedes physical abuse, since it takes large amounts of the former to keep the victim enduring the latter. If the perpetrator is relatively well-known to service providers it could well be that it won't be the first time his name comes up.

BTW, I suspect that the push/pull pattern is more symptomatic of BPD.  Enjoy your peace, and take this time to ponder deeply which way forward is healthiest for you. Compassion begins with you.
 

[khibomsis]

Deep insights here from Babyducks

"Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, calls this thought instability.    and she describes it like this:

- Intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary
- Their interpretation of events is the only truth
- Cannot be persuaded by fact or logic
- Do not see the impact of their own behavior on others
- Deny the perceptions of others

this is about obtaining and keeping control (and power) in the relationship.   if my truth is the only one that is recognized as accurate, then I am in control and have all the power in the relationship.   its a way for me to manufacture certainty and security.     over writing her reality on to everyone else is supposed to make her feel safe.   but because its a maladaptive coping tool it never really works.   reality keeps rearing its ugly head.

Quote from: Warriorprincess on February 20, 2021, 11:52:02 AM
Can one person play two roles? Because I feel like they’re both bullying me now and I’m the victim.

Sure, one person can play two roles.   sometimes in the same conversation.   

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

if you look at the diagram in the link, you will notice that the triangle is inverted.   that's because this is all about maintaining that one up position.   I am on the top of the triangle,... you are on the bottom.   its a power struggle.

one of the ways to get off the drama triangle and avoid the victim trap is to Refuse to be Superior or Inferior.   All of these roles requires one person to be superior, right, good, and better than the other person, while the other person has to be inferior, wrong, bad and worse. This one-up/one-down game has to be stopped in order for you to stop having a drama filled relationship.

Fjelstad says you have to be willing to stop playing the superior/inferior game to stay out of drama triangles.

Almost all conflict interactions with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder traits (BPD) or Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits (NPD) are based on who is better than/worse than, right/wrong, deserving of blame/deserving of defense, who gets more/gets less, who does more/does less, etc.

Breaking the cycle of conflict means not buying into who is better/worse,   right/wrong  etc etc etc.

How does that sound?"

[tvda]

All valid points... Thanks for your help and insights. Here's a tricky part:

Therapeutically, I believe the standard recommendation is that she would need to be separated for at least two years before you and her can realistically expect to have an authentic relationship.

Good point, and I underscribe it. Practically however, without serious outside help on the financial side of things, she is unable to 'escape' and separate. It boils down to pure numbers. She has almost no savings, a modest wage, no support from her parents, and will need to keep on paying half of the mortgage for her current house. Ergo: no money to rent her own place away from him for her and the three kids - without outside help. And that's where I don't see any option besides myself coming up - the bank's not going to help her out.

Ugh. Such a frustrating situation. I realise I'm starting to describe a "how to save her from abuse" case in a forum meant to be about BPD. Sorry about that. There's a little voice inside my head saying that maybe I WANT to see it as just an abuse & CPTSD case, because that way I can deny that she has BPD... Sigh. A lot of mist in my head at the moment.

Still, it is helping me to get your insights, and I am grateful for that. It's not exactly what I WANT to hear, but it probably is what I NEED to hear.

Regarding the drama triangle... It has dawned on me that she has, on numerous occasions, declined pretty good solutions with help from my side, so there is definitely "smoke" regarding preferring to remain a victim - and getting attention from this role. She has of course spoken of many terrible things her partner does and did, but then again she is not taking any action to change things.

As it stands, she is still withdrawing each day, so my course of action at this point is:
1) Let her 'take the lead', and not struggle to increase contact or proximity.
2) If she seeks contact, let her do the talking and if needed, ask how I can help - but not suggest or force help on her. Move to the center of the drama triangle, so to speak.
3) If she keeps on diminishing contact, let her do this, i.e. let her go. I can't keep this relationship going or alive on my own.
4) Work and focus on myself to process the pain and try to heal
5) If needed, mentally prepare/brace myself for a potential return or extra push-pull cycle, without actually "hoping she returns". I think a potential return should be met with 'boundaries' or demands from my side about an action plan and some serious therapy.

I think for now that's the clearest I can see.