Documenting evidence for potential future custody

[truthdevotee]

Hello,

I recently discovered my partner has high-functioning BPD. I arrived at this forum and came across the books by Randi Kreger only one week ago. I'm experiencing so much healing, understanding and knowledge about what has been occurring over the last few years. I've been posting on the other sub-group on this forum, and receiving so much amazing support and guidance.

I've been with my pwBPD for almost 9 years now. We have two children, a 3 year old and a 2 year old. I live in her country of origin and I do not speak the language. I have permanent residency here, so that's a good thing. Since things are not improving, I am learning that I should be careful and document evidence of incidents that might be necessary in the future, if things don't change. Over the last 3 years, I've documented evidence here and there (e.g. audio recordings), but not thoroughly. 3 weeks ago, my pwBPD slapped our 2 year old for breaking a toy. In the past, she's hit me a few times, but this was the first time it's occurred to one of our children. It was out of the blue; I didn't know she'd do something like that. I took it in my stride so as not to create more anguish for her already stressed out nervous system. But, since then, I'm thinking I need to be careful. I've been determined over the years to make this marriage work; I've done a lot of self-development work... in coming to this forum and reading the books, I'm learning so fast what's been occurring. And I'm 50/50 if this will work in the long term. My pwBPD ignores boundry setting. I'm happy that through greater understanding I don't have to feel so ashamed, guilty and confused - her blame and criticism don't mean something about me.

I have a couple of questions related to documenting evidence. First of all, sometimes I feel guilty for doing it, like it's "bad" to do it behind someone's back. But the thing is, the behavior can be extremely abusive. In the past, she's cut up a beautiful painting that a family member gave me, stuffed tissue paper into my mouth (I just let it happen knowing that I'm physically stronger and it's wise not to react), had items thrown at me, been hit, name calling on a weekly basis, she's thrown important books in the trash that I loved (outdoor trash and I couldn't retrieve them), cut up one of my family photo albums, various photos, etc. So I don't know why I feel guilty.

Also, what kind of evidence do the courts consider evidence? For example, all of those above mentioned incidents went undocumented. At least, I did not video or audio record them. However, since I have worked several years with a 12 Step sponsor, probably all of these incidents are retrievable as emails stored in my inbox sent and shared with my 12 Step sponsors...where I would share the details of the incidents whilst asking for support... does written stuff count as evidence? Of course, I guess this might vary from country to country, but generally?

I need to be more organized with evidence... over the next few months I'll try to retrieve old information and organize it. I hope I will never have to use it... but it might be that without some sort of shock, she will never learn to respect me and the atmosphere she creates at home. It could be a tool. It sounds so cold and calculating, but I suppose I've dealt with the abuse for so long that I just know I truly love and care for her, but she can't continue treating me this way. Perhaps the most loving thing is to strategically prepare for the future if things don't improve.

Also, are there any recommended mobile applications that anyone has used to document evidence?

Thank you for any and all comments... I'm so grateful to be here

[kells76]

First of all, sometimes I feel guilty for doing it, like it's "bad" to do it behind someone's back.

Well, you don't sound like the kind of person who just wants to "destroy" the other person. You want to do what's best for your kids. Keep them at the front of your mind. Consider whether you may have been conditioned, somehow, to believe that poking holes in your pwBPD's "amazing story of their amazing, wonderful self" is wrong... hmmm, why would that be?

Consider, too, that it may be better to have it all documented, and never need it, than to desperately need it to care for your kids, and not have it. Document it for their future, and if you never need it, then it's not like you're going to hold it over your pwBPD's head and threaten/blackmail/etc. Because you're not that kind of person.

does written stuff count as evidence? Of course, I guess this might vary from country to country, but generally?

What I've heard here is... "sort of". I have heard of members keeping a Google doc-type journal listing the basics of what happened day by day. You can perhaps color code or otherwise label events (I think?). Don't share the doc with your partner!

While not like "DNA samples" or "the weapon" type evidence, I believe a written journal can be used in court to "refresh your memory". It can add some weight to an otherwise "he said versus she said" situation (where it's just one person's account versus another person's account). I don't know if a journal or emails are "smoking guns"... it depends.

Perhaps the most loving thing is to strategically prepare for the future if things don't improve.

Yes, you are on the right track. Better to have it all, safe, and organized, and somewhere where she can't guilt you into destroying it (I've heard stories on this board), then to need it to save your kids, and it isn't there.

Also, are there any recommended mobile applications that anyone has used to document evidence?

Again, I've heard of people here using Google docs... think about creating a "burner" Gmail account (not your real name) just for documentation... keep it private.

[ForeverDad]

Every caution Kells76 mentioned HAS happened.  I know in my own situation I many times deleted documentation I had when times were "less bad" and then regretted it later when the brief highs plummeted and I no longer remembered the specifics.

Some here told their war stories.  We tell our members to make duplicate copies of basic family documents that may later get hidden, along with documentation of "incidents", and store them where their spouse doesn't have access.   One dad had his car's trunk broken into, another his locked briefcase forced open, still another had his then-spouse visit his office when he was out, his secretary let her in to wait and she searched his office.  And these were the ones who managed not to sabotage themselves by destroying their own documentation.

Don't feel guilty.  Years from now, once the kids are grown or you're very confident they're not needed anymore, way into the future you can dispatch them.  Not while you're in the midst of the ups & downs of chaos and conflict.

[livednlearned]

Is something going on that might be causing her to fall apart more?

In the past, she's hit me a few times

It's heartwrenching that you have to go through this. Bigger than her or not, it's degrading to be hit, and you deserve to be treated so much better (BPD or not). We all do.

this was the first time it's occurred to one of our children. It was out of the blue; I didn't know she'd do something like that. I took it in my stride so as not to create more anguish for her already stressed out nervous system.

How did you handle it with the two of them?

For you, what does taking it in stride mean?

I have a couple of questions related to documenting evidence. First of all, sometimes I feel guilty for doing it, like it's "bad" to do it behind someone's back.

If her behaviors fell with the normal range and you were documenting, that's one thing. 

She isn't behaving within the normal range of behaviors. Her actions are dangerous.

A lot of us have to dig deep to understand why we feel guilty when we protect ourselves from abuse. It's often family of origin conditioning.

I hung up the phone on my screaming, dysregulating, cursing, BPD brother one night and was ripped a new one by my father because "you know better."

That kind of thing can teach you to feel guilty about protecting yourself.

what kind of evidence do the courts consider evidence?

There's a rank order of sorts. I recommend you consult with an attorney to find out how things work where you live because that can help you think strategy vs tactics, even if you decide to stay (for now).

Consulting with an attorney can be a true eye-opener. My attorney explained to me that I was weakening my own position by dithering about how to protect my child. That was a splash of cold water.

In general, though, something documented by a third-party professional (psychologist, guardian ad litem, therapist, police officer, day care worker, etc.) is going to carry more weight.

Unfortunately for us in the battle zone, getting that kind of documentation is usually not something we seek (for reasons of nuclear fall out). Sometimes people end up initiating third party professional documentation once the contested divorce moves forward.

Often there is a mix.

After third-party professional, the next best is text/email/voice mail or, if it's legal to record, something that demonstrates the behaviors.

However, since I have worked several years with a 12 Step sponsor, probably all of these incidents are retrievable as emails stored in my inbox sent and shared with my 12 Step sponsors...where I would share the details of the incidents whilst asking for support... does written stuff count as evidence? Of course, I guess this might vary from country to country, but generally?

Sometimes evidence can work psychologically just as much as legally. My lawyer brought two 3-ring binders filled with my ex's email into a deposition almost as a prop. That alone changed the opposing attorneys ideas about what he had to work with, which wasn't much. Compared to what we had to work with. It can be like posturing.

Which is where you want to be careful. Because if she thinks you have an arsenal she might think about leveling the playing field. There is a real lose-lose mentality that can come screaming to the surface when the spotlight of courts starts to shine on bad BPD behaviors.

it might be that without some sort of shock, she will never learn to respect me and the atmosphere she creates at home. ... Perhaps the most loving thing is to strategically prepare for the future if things don't improve

.

I have found with BPD sufferers in my life that the only thing that works is felt boundaries. Talking means nothing. And if I allow myself to be in a one-down position, then I end up with boot prints on my back. But trying to navigate your way back to equal footing (which can threatening to someone with no genuine esteem), not to mention a confident place in the relationship, can increase danger with someone who is genuinely dangerous, whether toward you or through false allegations. Get a good safety plan in place, consult with attorneys, organize the evidence, facts, and meanwhile try to work the skills as best you can so the environment is as manageable as possible while you figure out what to do.

Also, are there any recommended mobile applications that anyone has used to document evidence?

I used google calendar to help organize. You used to be able to attach emails to specific dates, but I'm not sure if that's still a feature. I used it to help me track what was happening (appointments, incidents, emails, etc.) and then printed it out in agenda view when I needed to see it all in one place.

And I invested in a storage unit to store important documents.

What happened for me is witnessing my ex abuse our son. When I made the smallest most incremental move to stop it, things escalated and continuing in the marriage became a choice between protecting my husband, or protecting my son. As that danger grew, I had to be smart in making preparations, all while hoping my ex would have.

I'm glad you're posting here and getting support.

These are heart breaking conditions for everyone involved.

[Teno]

I used to feel guilty as well , but now I'm happy I started about a year ago. I wish I started earlier and did not delete things out of guild 3 years ago. At the moment I'm shown no mercy financially or with the kids.

I've been very secretive, else all of this will be turned on me!

I'm also a foreigner in my high functioning BPDs country.

I've got a black metal box at a friend's house with cash (save cash!) and old statements and abusive letters saved.

Things from years ago are being brought up to challenge me financially.

My daughter also got smacked over the shoulder in anger and rage and it is recorded and documented. I think my wife's anger came from me not being in agreement with her settlement suggestions.

The other times the kids lunch boxes got smashed. All because I took the dog for a walk or did not cook dinner in time. Got audio, text and photos saved in the app.

I use the journey app.
 
httpss://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.journey.app

I brought the premium version. (Few dollars).
Password protected in your phone.
All entries are backed up to the cloud.
You can take photos from within App and it is not visible to the photo album etc.
All photos and documents are stored in the App and is not visible to the rest of phone.
Date, time and location is recorded.
I store screenshots of messages here and then delete it from my phone's albums.
Easy to assign labels to different events, custody,abuse,finances,recordings...
https://journey.cloud/

I've been using this app, it loads all recordings to you google drive as well.
The recordings and app is not password protected on you phone. I'm using an an app for protecting access.
Easy voice recorder pro

I started recording our second couples therapy attempt and I wish I recorded our car drives to our first couples therapy.

Saves your sanity knowing you heard things correctly.

I'm record consistently now and delete what is not needed.

I've over 200 saved recordings of drama and stuff.

You can use otter meeting notes app for speech to text converter

I've backed up my recording onto a flash drive for my black box.

[truthdevotee]

Dear all,
I want to say a heartfelt thanks for your messages. They have been important to me since you wrote them. I've been documenting consistently since then.
@Teno, I just read yours now for the first time. Thanks so much for these suggestions. I will definitely implement them. So far I've just audio recorded all the conversations with my pwBPD.

I haven't replied for some time due to things being so intensely, intense. Today I have some grief because I love my boys so much. But things have got to the point where, if I am in my pwBPD's presence, she cannot control her rage. It is too intense for me, and for the pyschological safety for the boys, it is better that I am not around and that my pwBPD and I start co-parenting immediately.

I'm now in my own flat (Airbnb) and I need to get a car. Today, I had an inner breakdown due to exhaustion from my pwBPD's rage and said that I no longer want to talk to her face-to-face. I've said I'll only do that with a mediator or therapist, but no longer on my own. I'll go back to help the kids go to bed (I have two boys, a 3 year old and a 2 year old), and then come back to my flat. From tomorrow onwards, it needs to be either her looking after the boys, or me. I have not yet taken this step as I've always been manipulated by her saying she can't be with the boys alone (I have a lot of recorded evidence of this).

I trust that she loves them deeply and they are not yet directly in the firing line of her emotional issues (OK, to a certain extent they are in terms of my pwBPD's intense focus on cleanliness). So, overall, I feel comfortable that they are there with her and depending on her emotional state, she is either full of rageful confidence or breaking down in the feeling she can't handle it with the boys. But things have gone so far now, I have to stop saving her. If she can't handle it, I just need to bring them to my flat.

I am so exhausted and it's so painful, I can't be in the same four walls as her now. I've agreed only to text or email, because we are more effective that way.

It's been tough, I've been grieving a lot being away from my boys, who I love so much. But it's got to the point where there is no control...

I have a feeling that the only way for her to potentially self-reflect, is in my absence and the loss of me supporting her in her life. I'm basically always there caretaking and saving the day by being there for the boys when she falls apart. And I see how unhealthy that is, and if she wants to continue being in rage, then I can't allow myself to stay. And then, if furthermore she can't be with the boys, then I have to take them.

[truthdevotee]

Her latest email:

But I do not want to leave the boys from now on I want to be all the time with them even if it is not helpful for managing stuff.

If you want them either we have to find the way how to communicate or it would have to be agreed through a court.

[truthdevotee]

few things unfolded meanwhile.

Essentially I highlighted that I'm well prepared for the legal battle and already initiated support with a professional mediator. My anger was coming up when writing the emails and I'm a way, and I'm not sure if this was healthy or appropriate (I'm open to feedback) I told her I have documented evidence of her out of control behaviour as well as my high level of support towards our family. It was basically questioning if she wants to go down this route and that I'm surprised she would be willing to let the kids go through no contact with their father, that I would never block contact with their mother.

I was at the point where any communication was extremely highly charged from her and creating hell for the boys and intense stress for me. Additionally this all occurred after letting a big load of grief come out as tears.

In essence I kind of came down hard on the lawyer thing and said this isn't a route either of us want to go down, but if she refuses to let me see my children I will fight ASAP for joint or full custody and I will be successful.

The result was her backtracking. She's talking calmly, at least for the moment. In this state of calm I said we can definitely communicate tonight. So that's the plan, and I'll see how it goes. I hit they pause button with my lawyer and informed him she had a change of tone.

I'm not sure if this will be consistent. I hope so...

Instinctively, I fought. Again I don't know if this was good. But I'm happy she is calm right now and not creating havoc. She admitted she says things without meaning to for the first time. For example, she didn't mean to throw me out of the house but she said it (and subsequently felt upset that it actually occurred). I said resolutely that this must stop, she must learn to control impulsivity either through self reflection or therapeutic help. I wrote - "
I love you and I cannot be with you when you say things out of whatever emotion you are feeling, that you do not truly believe in. You told me several times to get out, so, I did. Now you're upset about that because I'm supposed to love you in a way that would allow you to say or do whatever you're feeling in the moment?
I am sorry but that's not how marriage works for me. "

I really hope this isn't just another momentary calm and the next rage in the way. It could be though...

Tomorrow I need to let the owner of the Airbnb flat know if I'll continue to stay there until the end of march. I guess maybe I should keep the flat until there's a consistent change in the atmosphere in front of the boys.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Suggest you keep a place where you can remain out of the pressure cooker for the time being.  Assume the worst, plan for the worst, hope for the best.  Several stories in here where folks were lured by a calm in the storm, and then hit hard.  Some even blindsided by DV  or molestation charges.  Be careful.  Hard to think and plan when you cannot find a place of peace.  Good Luck.  CoMo

[summerholiday]

A parent who is mentally sound should never feel guilty about preparing to take control of a situation where the other parent is unstable. You are doing the right thing by your kids.

I have have a young child with a BPD mother. Gathering evidence is not an issue because she has been (mis)diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder in the past and also bombards me with emails.

One thing to consider is the strength of your case. I avoid sending emails to her or doing anything that could create evidence that could be used against me. Having been through the divorce/custody saga before, you have to be prepared for false allegations and misleading statements from the other party. There is also generally a bias against men when it comes to determining custody.

If you gain full physical custody at some time in the future, then you will be able to decide the terms around when she has the kids. That's how it should be if you are the only fully responsible parent.