Looking back, the first sign that something was not right

[maxsterling]

In hindsight, what was the first thing you noticed that indicated you were with a disordered person, and how far along were you in your relationship?

I'm talking hindsight here - so it may have been something that didn't seem like a big deal at the time, but now that you know more you recognize the red flag.

Also, what was the first thing that you noticed as a "red flag" at the time it happened, and how far along were you in your relationship?

In my case, right from the beginning there was a bunch of stuff my W told me of her past that can be indicative of BPD, but many other people have had those issues when younger and have grown from them and don't have BPD.  So I won't count those.  I would say the first real thing looking back that makes me say "hmm" was after knowing her about 4 months her randomly saying what a great relationship we had and that we "never fight not even once".  I didn't think much of it at the time, but looking back that is a clear indication that she views conflict and fighting in relationships as normal. 

A few days later, I came down with flu, and was sick for a couple of weeks.  W became frustrated and in a sour mood over me being sick.  As I was starting to feel better, W went out with some friends, and came back in a happy mood.  I tried to communicate with her how that made me feel, that she'd been in a bad mood with me for a week while I was sick, but went out with others and came back happy, and she blew up for hours.  After awhile, I told her that maybe trying to live together was not a good idea and maybe we should take a break from the r/s.  At that point, W tried to jump out of the car door while I was driving.  I had no idea what BPD was at the time, had not had much relationship experience, and had never experienced anything like that.   

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[EZEarache]

In hindsight, what was the first thing you noticed that indicated you were with a disordered person, and how far along were you in your relationship?

I'm talking hindsight here - so it may have been something that didn't seem like a big deal at the time, but now that you know more you recognize the red flag.
  

I was just thinking about this same thing recently.

We were on a weekend getaway and planning to meet up with friends for a hike. She started flipping out on me in the hotel room. In hindsight there was totally some fear of abandonment showing. It was the day after her birthday. She was afraid we would hike faster than her, and she would get left behind. I promised we would wait for her, but she hated that idea as well. Eventually she became mad at me for suggesting that I wanted to spend more time with her friends. We just skipped the hike and drove home. This was the first of many fights involving making plans with other people.

[Naughty Nibbler]

I would say the first real thing looking back that makes me say "hmm" was after knowing her about 4 months her randomly saying what a great relationship we had and that we "never fight not even once".  I didn't think much of it at the time, but looking back that is a clear indication that she views conflict and fighting in relationships as normal.

I've heard it said that the best relationships are those where there has been some conflict, and things were worked out in an emotionally mature manner.  No conflict at all, likely indicates that there is some people pleasing going on by one partner. Too much conflict & fighting indicates a red flag of either mental health problems or there are too many differences for a successful relationship.

[alterK]

Made me slightly uncomfortable, but only in retrospect realized how important it was. Wife had had 3 previous marriages ending in divorce (I've had 2, so I won't be throwing any stones here!). When she told me stories about them early in our relationship, the fault was always 100% with her exes. No hint that she might have participated in the screw-ups.

One yielded to the influence of his father who hated her (reason for hate not given). One just started mysteriously withdrawing and behaving strangely, perhaps just because he was neurotic. One was a workaholic, subject to tantrums, neglected her, abused her physically on one occasion. The only thing she admitted to was "choosing the wrong person."

For me the question had nothing to do with whether she was a good or bad person, but whether she had learned anything about what she had done to contribute to the failures of her past marriages (and whether I should expect more wisdom on her part). But I supposed that in BPD thinking, such things have everything to do with whether you are good or bad. There's no grey area between the two, and that the slightest fear that you might be a bad person means you have to project the evil onto someone else.

Now I have to work on why I chose her despite this.

[maxsterling]

Made me slightly uncomfortable, but only in retrospect realized how important it was. Wife had had 3 previous marriages ending in divorce (I've had 2, so I won't be throwing any stones here!). When she told me stories about them early in our relationship, the fault was always 100% with her exes. No hint that she might have participated in the screw-ups.

Mine told of exes early on.  Many r/s, two whom she claims "broke her heart".  I too did not see this red flag because most people have failed relationships in their past.

The real red flag I suppose was how she talked about them.  The two big ones she claims the guys basically just abandoned her or that she was in a relationship with an "unavailable man".  I felt bad for her at the time, because recently the same had happened to me.  Now that I know more details, I am guessing they were pulling away when she was being more controlling.  The real kicker was when she told me that most of the men she had been in relationships with wound up marrying and having children with the next woman they were with.  Not having a significant amount of time between her r/s was also something I missed.

[Hope4Joy]

I don’t think there was a major red flag for the 2 years before we were engaged. Major red flags started closer to 3 years just before we married. We were young at age 21 so perhaps personality was still developing.

I think there was evidence of boundary issues within months of dating though.

[HopelessBroken]

My ex pwBDP told me almost immediately that his most recent ex was “crazy” and that “crazy women fall in love with me.” I did not know at that time that he was the crazy one.

Biggest red flag that I saw and didn’t run from was that he slept with his neighbor. Didn’t tell me until her husband threatened to tell me. Told me we were broken up (we weren’t) then blamed me for causing him to sleep with her.

Clearly love made that red flag not bright enough for me to see. 

[formflier]

My wife is "BPDlite" compared to many other female members of her family.  Looking around...all these women marry men that are azzholes...no good..."and it's not the womens fault"..they were all victimized.  Hmmm...the common thread is?

For many years my wife consciously tried to be different than them.  Every once in a while we would have an argument or disagreement that would get completely irrational, yet fairly quickly there would be a resolution that stuck..as in things got solved...and stayed solved.

We also had a military marriage, so lots of honeymoon time of me getting back home...and if I started to upset her or she was tired of me (or me of her)...give it time and we'd get a break from each other.

Somewhere around 15ish years of marriage we were involved in a natural disaster (flood) and were forced off our farm for about half a year.  

My mental health went one way...hers went another.  I invalidated her for several years...which basically meant I fueled her worst impulses.

Knowing that I know now...I can "see it".  Luckily things are much more placid in our relationship and things that are likely never to be solved..I've built boundaries around and moved on.

She is still "BPD lite" and of our generation in her family (brothers sisters and a host of cousins)...we have the only intact marriage.  Intact as in...we are still in first marriage.

FFw older sister is at 4-5 marriages and several long term r/s that have failed.  So..yes there is debate/unclarity regarding how many marriages were legal versus "claimed".  She was not at fault for any of their failure.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

My husband's ex is uNPD/BPD. I asked him how much of her problems in the marriage and with friends/family were cultural differences vs. psychological/emotional issues. He promptly answered 50-50. She does have some very entrenched cultural values that are opposed to DH's values, but she also is a severely personality disordered person who has refused to admit any wrong or seek help. She is now 66 years old.

Early on in their relationship, the first red flag occurred when he disagreed with or denied something she wanted -- don't know what it was, don't know if he even remembers. But he clearly remembers her reaction, which was "No one has ever told me No. No one. Ever." Accompanied by a rage that demonstrated why. DH rationalized that she was young (18) and immature, but that once they were married and had returned to the States (he was military at the time) and settled into a "good Christian marriage," she would mature and be okay. He was extraordinarily naive at age 23. (For one thing, she's Theraveda Buddhist.)  His sister later overheard her tell a friend that she married him because she wanted to come to the U.S. and have more money.

So they married, and the rest of their marriage was one of constant and blatant infidelities on her part, with DH holding the family together at the expense of losing his Self, with eventual stress-related health problems. By the time their children were teens, they were begging him to divorce her -- as teens, they became targets.

[maxsterling]

We also had a military marriage, so lots of honeymoon time of me getting back home...and if I started to upset her or she was tired of me (or me of her)...give it time and we'd get a break from each other.

It seems like for many couples the BPD ramps up when they begin cohabitating. That was when I noticed the first signs.  From what I know about W's past relationships, that seemed to be a pattern - things did not last long after physical distances became closer.  I wonder if things would get better in my R/S if I was working in the field more often.  The closeness seems to be a real trigger for my W. 

[Notwendy]

While my situation was more subtle, regardless, I am not sure it's helpful to look at the past in terms of the other person. For me, it was- why did I miss this? Why did I accept unacceptable behavior?

I thankfully was able to recognize the more severe and obvious behaviors that I witnessed growing up with BPD mom. I knew I didn't want to deal with any of that.

But I also had no concept of "normal". I had low self esteem and an inability to stand up for myself. This was the norm in my family. I was not allowed to stand up for myself, and I was expected to be a doormat to my BPD mom. I was constantly blamed by her for any issues.

If she was nice to me, it was a manipulation. So I felt undeserving.

Take this into relationships and it's inevitable that I would tolerate certain behaviors that other people wouldn't. This is something I had to work on. It makes me sad to remember how I allowed people to treat me and yet stayed loyal to them.

Max, consider that not only were there red flags about your wife that you continued to accept but that somehow you also tolerated and accepted abusive behavior. You can't change her issues but this one, you can change.

This may be a bit blunt, but it seems you are chasing rainbows. Maybe if I did X she would get better. X being working away from home, the ketamine treatments, the __________________ fill in the blank with the next possible maybe.

You don't have power over your wife's issues or behavior. Yes, you can impact conflict somewhat by your reactions but you don't have the magic key to fix her or any one else. You do have power over your own behavior and issues.

[Notwendy]

This is the example I am getting at

Shift from-

I wonder if things would get better in my R/S if I was working in the field more often.  The closeness seems to be a real trigger for my W.
 
This is all about managing and controlling your wife's feelings. There's no thinking about you or the boys in this idea, it's all about her, and she's the focus of your thinking. Why is that? Why is it ok for you and the boys to not matter in this family?


To:

I think it would be  better for me if I was working in the field more often. I would then have some time to myself and not be subjected to my W's frustrations as much. This would help me a lot to clear my mind and have some self care time. In addition, it would be better to have the boys in play school so they are away from the drama as well. While this also may take some stress off my w, this is not the main motivation for me deciding to do this.

[formflier]

Hey Max...Notwendy makes a critical point.  One that I hope you can reflect back to us...or give us your understanding of what she is saying to you.

I say/advise it in a slightly different way...I don't believe it detracts from the character Notwendy's advice...but would certainly think a discussion of that is on point for decisions you have in front of you.

It seems to me that we spend so much time figuring out how to "respond to BPD"   and yet when I look at success in my relationship and success in others..it seems to me that people forged a path and "let BPD respond to them".  (even if BPD responds badly)

My "military mind" really latches onto this since "taking the initiative" or "taking back the initiative" is important in military operations/battles.

It is important that you "leave the door open" for your pwBPD to join you on this new path...but having the pwBPD comply/join is bonus.

Note:  This is in addition to advice about having explicit conversations with Ts about what they see as being possible. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I’m with FF and Notwendy. 

Having been married to two pwBPD, I’ve found that the more you cater to them, the worse they get.

Think about this: People with BPD have an unstable self image or sense of self.

Why let them lead? If they don’t know who they are, what they like, what they want—they certainly aren’t the ones who should be leading the relationship.

I was raised to be a people pleaser by my BPD mother. It was very hard for me to impose my will on others (or so it felt). Actually I was just learning to make choices like most healthy well-individuated adults. But for me, it felt as if I was becoming a narcissist.

I think that’s what holds back a lot of us who have found ourselves in relationships with pwBPD. We want their approval.

Sometimes you have to just say,  that. I’m going to do what I think is best for me and all concerned.

Surprisingly this often turns out to be the key to having a better, less contentious relationship with our pwBPD.

[maxsterling]

This is the example I am getting at

Shift from-

I wonder if things would get better in my R/S if I was working in the field more often.  The closeness seems to be a real trigger for my W.
 
This is all about managing and controlling your wife's feelings. There's no thinking about you or the boys in this idea, it's all about her, and she's the focus of your thinking. Why is that? Why is it ok for you and the boys to not matter in this family?


To:

I think it would be  better for me if I was working in the field more often. I would then have some time to myself and not be subjected to my W's frustrations as much. This would help me a lot to clear my mind and have some self care time. In addition, it would be better to have the boys in play school so they are away from the drama as well. While this also may take some stress off my w, this is not the main motivation for me deciding to do this.

I agree with this 100%  Working in the office/field several days a week would help me.  Whether it helps her is an unknown.  But that also means enforcing boundaries regarding responding to text messages/phone calls while I am at work.  It doesn't help me at all if I allow myself to get roped into text message dramas.  Also I need to work on boundaries regarding when I get home.  Typically that is a time when W bombards me with all her daily gripes and frustrations all at once.  It doesn't help me much to be away from the drama all day long and then deal with all of it in a short amount of time the minute I step in the door. 

I will mention that the dynamic has definitely changed since having kids, especially twins.  Pre kids it was much, much easier to enforce a boundary.  Now I have to consider the impact on the children by enforcing said boundary.  Example:  Today could have been a day where I said "I need to work from the office",  but I didn't because W has an important Dr appt in the afternoon and the children will need to be watched.    Plus, I thought W may take the kids out for a few hours this morning.  Now she just informed me that she probably will not take the kids out today due to "pain", and suggested we take the kids out tomorrow.  I would rather not take the kids out tomorrow because I have 2.34x10^14 things to do, but the kids can't be at home every day - they need to go out.  Pre kids this situation was much easier.  Now many of my decisions are based upon my kids' needs.  How do I navigate making sure my kids' needs are met without reinforcing bad behavior of my W?

[formflier]

Regarding kids "needs"...1 day in or out of the house isn't going to matter very much.

Even in your examples, your life is revolving around your wife and kids..

as opposed to

Max says:  Here is my schedule...

wife says:  oh my but I had a doctor appointment today...surely you don't want me to miss out on X that will cure my Y and solve all our problems.


Max expresses confidence that his wife will be able to work around his schedule and or find childcare options.

She will pitch a fit...but eventually, she will understand Max doesn't revolve around her whims or pain.

"I have pain today and can't take the kids."

"Well..that' certainly is disappointing.  Lets hope things turn around for next weeks schedule." 

Something like that.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Max, your ability to work depends on reliable child care. For you to have control over your work, you must also have control over the child care situation ( as much as possible with kids). When you depend on your wife for this, you put her in control of something that is essential to you and also the support of your family. This means she can decide whether you go to work or not depending on her moods and her moods are unpredictable.

When we talk about you taking the steering wheel of your own life, it means taking it into YOUR hands, not hers. Anything that is essential to you, you need to be responsible for.

You have to let go of any "shoulds" or fairness. Yes, if one parent is working then the other parent "should" help in other ways such as child care. In a true partnership it's win win. Whoever watches the kids is helping the person who is earning a living and so they both benefit the family in their own individual ways.

This is not your situation and it won't ever be your situation, so let it go.

You need reliable, safe and stable child care for your boys. This probably means day care or preschool or some combination of this.

[Laylabelle1]

The first thing that made me uncomfortable was the little lies which I put down to insecurity, silly things like 'I haven't been on fb for ages'...but I'd be looking at a post he'd replied to an hour earlier.
Then once  after an hour of intimacy he told me my little legs reminded him of someone at work, a slim little thing whom he often teases. When I pointed out it was not appropriate to say such things, especially at this time, he said ' you're not one of those bunny boilers are you? I've already had two head cases in the past', needless yo say it aroused my suspicions and made me watch him around other women. I became paranoid. And another was that he would, in the middle of conversations, include full sentences which someone had said in our presence leading me to think he had that person on his mind.
I just assumed he was picking up phrases which he thought were cute because they'd made me smile or laugh.
Then he would constantly 'steal phrases and stories I'd told him as his own. It scared me at one point because I felt like I was being taken over, but ignored it all .
I became a detective not realising at the time that it was weird because he would tell me he was obsessed with me.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother copies phrases and opinions from people. I don't think it's done to undermine them but due to her own poor sense of self, and some shame, so she borrows other people's opionions and achievements.

She didn't really act as a parent to her own children. What's eerie is that she takes the stories I have related about doing things with my children and tells them as if it were her and us. So she'll say "I remember those days when you were a toddler" and then tell a story about "me" but it's not me, it's my experience with a toddler. She will also repeat political opinions of others and when I ask her why she feels that way, or try to discuss it in more detail, she doesn't know them. I am not interested in arguing politics but if someone says "oh that ______, he's an idiot" I would like to know what they base that opinion on.

With my own situation, I was able to dismiss any difficulties to stress at the time, and lack of feeling I deserved to be treated better. I grew up longing for some kind of connection and approval from my parents, and my parents could not give it. My response was to work very hard for approval and become a people pleaser. I brought a low self worth into relationships and so accepted being treated in ways that I wish I knew better not to.

[Breakingpoint13]

My bdp ex told me I deserved to be raped after our first holiday together as I was speaking at the bar to a male whilst sat next to him, who may I reiterate was talking to us both. He then caused a scene and told me I could never be trusted I had caused insecurities etc etc. Throughout the relationship I did whatever I could for him only for him to call me abusive when I told him what he did which and hurt me and for him to then say he couldn’t get better if I kept bringing up the past, for him to then continue to bring up situations that were nothing that happened in the first few weeks of knowing each other blaming me.

He also read through old therapy diaries and to blamed me for anything and everything and said it was me who couldn’t accept the love. I also had accusations of doing porn in which threats were sent to my work, I had to phone for a welfare check at this point into which I then got the blame for his state for. His parents blocked me, then he admitted to making it all up because he was suffering from insomnia.

Always an excuse never can stick to taking any responsibility

[Breakingpoint13]

My bdp ex told me I deserved to be raped after our first holiday together as I was speaking at the bar to a male whilst sat next to him, who may I reiterate was talking to us both. He then caused a scene and told me I could never be trusted I had caused insecurities etc etc. Throughout the relationship I did whatever I could for him only for him to call me abusive when I told him what he did which and hurt me and for him to then say he couldn’t get better if I kept bringing up the past, for him to then continue to bring up situations that were nothing that happened in the first few weeks of knowing each other blaming me.

He also read through old therapy diaries and to blamed me for anything and everything and said it was me who couldn’t accept the love. I also had accusations of doing porn in which threats were sent to my work, I had to phone for a welfare check at this point into which I then got the blame for his state for. His parents blocked me, then he admitted to making it all up because he was suffering from insomnia.

Always an excuse never can stick to taking any responsibility .

Not to forget all the white lies that came out. I even went to get an evaluation to make sure I was BDP as this was constantly thrown at me.

[globalnomad]

I think about this question a lot -- and wonder why I was able to brush off what seem like such obvious red flags when looking back:
I remember taking my now wife on a date to a restaurant just a few weeks into our relationship. We took the subway there -- and I got a little confused so we got off the train one stop too early. No big deal, I thought. It was a nice night to walk and only added 10 minutes at most. She got really angry and started berating me for poor preparation. This seemed REALLY weird at the time, but I dismissed it as her just having a bad day. I now understand it was a major red flag.

[Cat Familiar]

This was a glaring   and why I dismissed it was due to youth and naivety.

My former husband and I were living in a ski town, working minimal wage jobs and living in an old hunting lodge with roommates, miles away from town up a narrow road with steep drop offs and no guardrails.

We’d had an argument and he’d driven off in a huff, not to return that night. I was worried sick that he might have driven off the road and would freeze to death.

When he returned the next morning, he denied that he’d had sex with anyone (I hadn’t asked) and cooked me an elaborate breakfast.

Of course he did, and that was his modus operandi for years to come.