Object Permanence

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all,

I have just started a new semester of Psychology study at University, and this is the first topic. How much does everyone know about it in relation to BPD behaviour?

Having read about it before, and now diving into it again, I think this is one of the key pieces of the puzzle that highlights that people with Borderline are in fact DISORDERED, not purely evil people (although their actions can certainly be evil). It also explains how they can move on so quickly and truly don't believe we were ever that important to them. Out of sight is truly out of mind.

Anecdotally, when my partner moved from the UK to Australia to be with me, she once spoke to me about not feeling anything for her parents anymore. Like they weren't even her parents. Meanwhile, the day she arrived in Australia she said "I didn't know if I felt anything for you anymore, but the moment I saw you it all came flooding back". I had previously suggested that we didn't speak on the phone for the week leading up to her arrival so that we would be super excited when the time came to meet at the airport (and she went ballistic at this idea).

Object permanence, or lack thereof, also explains why she message and call me constantly when I went on work trips, and would get upset if I took too long to respond because I was doing actual work!

Posting, as I think this topic is helpful in allowing partners to move on from their BPD ex.

[grumpydonut]

Hi all,

I have just started a new semester of Psychology study at University, and this is the first topic. How much does everyone know about it in relation to BPD behaviour?

Having read about it before, and now diving into it again, I think this is one of the key pieces of the puzzle that highlights that people with Borderline are in fact DISORDERED, not purely evil people (although their actions can certainly be evil). It also explains how they can move on so quickly and truly don't believe we were ever that important to them. Out of sight is truly out of mind.

Anecdotally, when my partner moved from the UK to Australia to be with me, she once spoke to me about not feeling anything for her parents anymore. Like they weren't even her parents. Meanwhile, the day she arrived in Australia she said "I didn't know if I felt anything for you anymore, but the moment I saw you it all came flooding back". I had previously suggested that we didn't speak on the phone for the week leading up to her arrival so that we would be super excited when the time came to meet at the airport (and she went ballistic at this idea).

Object permanence, or lack thereof, also explains why she message and call me constantly when I went on work trips, and would get upset if I took too long to respond because I was doing actual work!

Posting, as I think this topic is helpful in allowing partners to move on from their BPD ex.

[Cromwell]

I was reading into this about 2 years ago. The theory of object permanence originated with Piaget, endured in mainstream, has since widely been rejected?

I was wondering if the fear of abandonment be at play instead for these behaviours?

[grumpydonut]

Not sure where you found that it has been rejected?

A fear of abandonment is meant to stem from the lack of object permanence.

[Skip]

Not sure where you found that it has been rejected?

A fear of abandonment is meant to stem from the lack of object permanence.

... or maybe its lack of object constancy and emotional permanence.

Object constancy is the ability to believe that a relationship is stable and intact, despite the presence of setbacks, conflict, or disagreements. Without object constancy, good times, setbacks, conflict, distance or disagreements can't be balanced and the relationship is only seen in the moment.

Object constancy is related to the idea of object permanence. Both refer to the stability of an idea held in a person's mind, but object constancy describes our attitudes toward interpersonal relationships, while object permanence refers to our understanding of concrete objects.

[Cromwell]

Not sure either grumpydonut, I just recall finding that I did not put huge emphasis on the theory anymore.

The thing is, if the theory applies to material objects and i was to apply to my ex with BPD and assume it applied to her, it begs a further question;

Id wonder why I'd think i was any more important than the other objects? Surely if she lacked permance it would apply to. Thinking her car had disappeared until go to a window to see it parked outside. Scenario's like that. None of these things happened so I'm not persuaded of the theory. The theory applies to toddlers not adults. Id imagine 99% of adult humans bpd or not have learn object permanence so I'd find it hard to persuade its the main reason for her behaviors.

[Skip]

The thing is, if the theory applies to material objects...

Object constancy applies to feelings/emotions.

The theory applies to toddlers not adults. Id imagine 99% of adult humans bpd or not have learn object permanence so I'd find it hard to persuade its the main reason for her behaviors.

This is true about object permanence. Even dogs develop levels of object permanence.

Object constancy is a psychodynamic concept, and we could think of it as the emotional equivalence of object permanence.

[Cromwell]

I know read your good explanation previous post Skip. Its helpful to get grip with the nomenclature thanks.

[Skip]

I might have had too much coffee this morning. 

Sorry to be repeating myself.

[grumpydonut]

Yeah, actually, I may be describing the wrong thing, haha.

What I'm referring to isn't remembering objects, etc. But emotional connections. AKA. When out of BPD sight, they forget how they feel about you - as per my two examples!

[Ad Meliora]

Hi GrumpyD,  When I first starting researching BPD and figured out that's what my ex had this concept came up and it was labeled "object permanence" so I'm happy to use that term to describe it here in your thread.  How it was pitched was as "out of sight, out of mind" and that's how I think of it and it totally applied to my BPDex.  Maybe it should be called OOS-OOM in an abbreviation, that almost makes sense.

My BPDex actually used the term early on in the relationship as she thought it would apply to me (projection).  I had just driven her over 700 miles and 5 states away to take a new job--on a whim I would add--and it truly was the best week out of the 52 I was together with her.  Heck, it was one of the best weeks of my life in general.  Anyway, before she drove me to the airport she said she loved me.  She went on to say how she never says this and her family never used the word.  She also said she didn't want to be "Out of sight, Out of mind".  All of this now reads as a red flag, but after a fantastic week I was like "Are you kidding me?"  She had gone on about packing 3 types of stationary and was going to write me regularly.  I got on the plane, flew home, and over the course of 3 months I believe I got exactly 1 letter written on stationary.  I wrote at least once a week, emailed daily, called as much as she would allow (every few days?).

Additionally she was always losing things.  I'm talking phone, keys, wallet and I'm talking daily one of the three.  When was the last time any of you NONs lost your phone twice in a week?  I talking about miles and miles away from home.  My cats have a better memory of where I move the food dishes to!  Although, cats don't have the stressors us humans do on a daily basis. 

Maybe this relates the impermanence as well, as she could Etch-A-Sketch her thoughts or emotions in a matter of minutes or hours.  You know the toy I'm talking about here.  I'll give you an example.  I might be talking to her about something and all of a sudden she would take it the wrong way and start crying.  I would be confused, and she would leave the room with her hands over her face saying to let her be.  Moments later, she would come back in, mascara wiped from her eyes, a smile on her face and ask what was on TV?

I couldn't make plans with her, she would cancel or ignore them if it didn't fit her emotional state.  I'm sure many NONs had problems with this too with their BPD partners.  It may be more related to the covert narcissism that accompanied it, but it may be her idea of time too, idk.   Maybe it's like boxer Mike Tyson says, "Everybody has a plan, until they get punched in the face!"  I took the [emotional] hits every time I was with her and she regularly hit below the belt.