Is there any way to reason with my BPD wife?

[thankful person]

Hi I am a lesbian married to a bpd wife and we have two children (biologically hers but ivf conceived together) age nearly two years, and four months.
We are soon going to be moving far away from both our families. Although this was mostly her idea, there are good reasons for it I can’t dispute.. we need to sell because we can’t afford the repairs our place needs, we will be mortgage free which will help given that she’s jealous of me working (not that she wants to work..) and also I spent many years travelling the world before we met and she is fifteen years younger and has never lived anywhere else..
Both our families only recently met the new baby and my parents have barely ever seen the older one (mostly due to Covid). My parents are twenty years older than hers and my dad is very sick with Parkinson’s. My wife refuses to take the children round there (1.5 hour trip) and I’m not allowed to either because the older one gets very travel sick and it messes with her sleep routines.  Even though we traveled five hours to see our new house but obviously that was a one off trip. Problem is, it’s very difficult for my mum to bring dad here but they did it and dad was happier than I’ve seen him in years to hold the new baby with support. All I want at this stage is not much. We are having a final goodbye party and my wife has said my dads carer can’t come to help him and mum cos she only wants family here. And uses the excuse that they managed last time. Also, my mum asked If dad’s sister could come instead. Again it’s a no cos my wife doesn’t like her and finds her creepy. I just want my parents to spend some time with my children for what may be the last time, as my wife is saying we’re not travelling back ever, though people can come to us but she knows my dad can’t do the journey. Is there anything I can do about it? I know my wife’s parents totally agree with me on all of this but they can’t influence her either. I put my foot down in Feb saying I was going to start sending my mum photos of the children when I want without her permission and she hated me for months for disrespecting her wishes, and said she wishes I’d leave her. It took a long time to move on from that and I’m still nervous to send any pictures, or even take them, and I have to send them to her mum too. Point is if I were to insist on anything, she would not forgive me, ever. Another issue we are currently having is her jealousy of the older child being close to me and more affectionate. This is because she is always breast feeding the baby, and also, although she isn’t  so bad at the moment, I’m sure the child does find her somewhat unpredictable with shouting etc. at times. You people are wonderful and thanks in advance for any replies. I’m sorry I don’t often get the chance to respond, being in a controlling relationship.. I’m sure you know what I mean…

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

Hello Broken person,...

to simply answer your topic question, is there any way to reason with my BPD wife?    the answer is both yes and no.

pwBPD don't process the events and information of life the same way that you and I do.     their focal point and perspective tends to be much different from ours.     and reasoning - from the point of view of let me explain the facts to you - tends to be not very productive.

we will be mortgage free which will help given that she’s jealous of me working (not that she wants to work..)

let's use this as an example okay?

I'm just guessing for the sake of example but lets say when you approach this topic you come at it from the perspective of mortgages and finances and money and working and jobs.    all very fact oriented.    all very concrete.    jobs.   money.   houses.   mortgages.    when she approaches this topic its from the perspective or the  point of view;  of jealousy - something else is more important than I am,  attention seeking -   how can she focus on me if she is always at the job,  needs not getting met - how am I going to get my needs met if Broken Person isn't totally focused on me 100% of the time?

in essence you are having two different conversations.    about two different topics.    from two different perspectives.     its up to you to communicate differently, to approach conversations with a whole different tool box.     many times people here ask  - why can't my partner just see how they are acting hurts me?    why can't my partner understand my point of view.      I suspect the short answer to that question is - because their brains aren't wired that way.

if you want to have a successful conversation with a pwBPD you will need to learn, practice and become skilled at using the tools listed on this website and others.      make sense?

  I’m sorry I don’t often get the chance to respond, being in a controlling relationship.. I’m sure you know what I mean…

what you can do about the situations you describe dependsa great deal on you.    how you feel about being in a controlling relationship.    and how much work/effort you want to put into changing the dynamic in the relationship.   it won't be easy.   

what kind of support do you have for yourself?   close friends?   family?   clergy?  therapist?

'ducks

[thankful person]

Hi ducks and thanks for your reply. You were spot on about my working, she isn’t jealous because she wants to work, but because she thinks it gives me pleasure spending time with other people.
I do want to change but I have little support. I don’t have friends, and I only speak to my mother when my wife is around (we are together most of the time). I’m self employed and mostly teaching online from home these days.
I do want to change and I want things to be better and to stand up for myself, for myself, our children, and also my parents. But I don’t know specifically how to address these things. I spoke on here before about my wife screeching, PUT HER DOWN, when our oldest daughter comes to me for cuddles and stories, because I shouldn’t be encouraging her to prefer me. Someone on here suggested I should continue cuddling the child, and walk out of the room with her if necessary. I did try this. My wife snatched the child roughly from me and physically threw me out of the room. People were like, you know if she’s violent it’ll only get worse… Well, not really. We’ve been together seven years and the violence is almost non-existent now, in fact I think she had not exhibited any violence towards me for a year before that, and she hasn’t since. I’m not saying that her behaviour is ok or that our situation is normal. I’m saying that in many cases the violence probably doesn’t get worse but that is because the partner (in our case me) learns how not to create such a situation, and therefore not stand up for myself. I want to take some small steps out of this situation, that won’t hurt or anger her too much… but we are talking only of massive steps such as if I were to just take the older child to see my parents without her permission, or even to invite my dads sister round. She would not forgive me for these things and I genuinely think it could end our relationship.

[babyducks]

hello BP -

it sounds like what you are describing to us is a re-occurring pattern of you appeasing her and walking on egg shells to avoid the rage/blame that would happen if you stood up for yourself :

the partner (in our case me) learns how not to create such a situation, and therefore not stand up for myself. I want to take some small steps out of this situation, that won’t hurt or anger her too much…

it doesn't seem to matter much what the topic is - trips to visit your family - contact with your family - contact with your children - contact with people on your job, what you seem to be describing is your wife being very controlling of how and when you act to be your authentic self and you appeasing and going along with what she wants.

have I got that pretty much correct?     

let me first say that many people arrive here in similar situations to what you are describing.  its not unusual at all to have people describe relationships where one partner is completely defining the terms, creating a double standard and there is no mutuality, collaboration, or cooperation.     I will be honest and say this is a hard nut to crack.    if you are successful it will take more time, effort and energy than you are probably thinking right now.

which is why I am going to suggest you come here every day and post something.   a little something.  commit to some small effort every day.    the reason I think this will help is that people here will come to know your story, they will get a deeper sense of how to tailor advice and information that fits your situation in a more personal way.     Make sense?

also by posting regularly you will be able to express your thoughts and feelings.    that will help you identify patterns.    it will help you say your truth.   it will help you get a stronger ideas about what works and what doesn't.    what do you think about getting a therapist for yourself?   to talk things through face to face with?    is that possible right now?

my experience was my then partner - now Ex believed that there was only a small amount of love, care, attention and affection in the world.    probably about the size of a tea cup.    for my Ex - she felt she needed to control that tea cup at all costs, at all times, or else she wouldn't get any.     and of course the more she tried to control that tea cup the more the supply in the tea cup dried up.   My Ex once told me that I couldn't go bike riding for exercise because I wouldn't be available for her phone call or text if she happened to need me.    Clearly this wasn't a normal situation.     Clearly that wasn't acceptable.   so I do understand what you are going through.

I am happy to hear you say that you want to try small things, simple steps to make some changes.    I think this is the way to go.   Its a good decision.    Our friends in the 12 Step programs have a saying about one day at a time, and doing something 'just for today'.     take a minute and look up the just for today mediation they use.    this is a small clip for there:

JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only, and not tackle all my problems at once. I can do something for 12 hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime.

You want to try some small thing every day that strengthens you and works to change the pattern you are in.    something so small it might not even be noticeable to anyone else but you.     these small steps will eventually add up to bigger changes.    how do you feel about that?

the thing with small changes is that not all off them may succeed.    just like you cuddling your child... some of this will be trial and error.    some of this will be experimentation.     some days will be better than others.

writing here every day (or as frequently as you can)   is one of those small steps.   

what do you think?   

'ducks

[thankful person]

Hi baby ducks, thanks again for your reply. It is so kind of you people to give your time and advice. You seem to have a very good understanding of our situation. I’m not “allowed” to get a therapist because my wife does not want to be talked about behind her back. She also refuses to attend therapy with me. It feels like a huge betrayal that I am here, but I desperately want to save our marriage, I also think if I could play it right, she may become happier. I grew up with a serious lack of boundaries and I’ve always worked with children and I know they respond better when the boundaries are clear and you are firm with them. I know it’s not quite the same, but I wonder if she knows some of it isn’t right. I have told her she’s controlling, of course. She says I’m controlling but I don’t get why because I don’t stop her doing anything or seeing anybody. I totally relate to the bike ride thing. Ironically I have time to post here because we sleep in separate beds (her choice to sleep with our children and not me). She is extremely unhappy that we never have sex which she sees as my fault, but it’s very difficult with two children under two, one breast feeding. I will try to post here more and start with a proper introduction. I have been taking small steps, to send my mum at least one photo a month, but my wife is even more particular about pictures of the young baby. She also had a go at me for taking a beautiful picture of toddler cuddling dog, because “I don’t ever get the chance to take the pictures!” Because she’s always breast feeding. Five minutes later she put it on Facebook.. I’m like.. “so… are you pleased I took the picture or what?” Except I just said that in my head. I’d love to send my mum a video of the toddler running around a field today. I should do it without discussion right? Also, the “rule” is I have to send the same pics to her mum but I’m sure she doesn’t always follow the rule as my poor mum hardly got anything when the rule was, “only bpd wife is allowed to take or send any pictures”. Please recognise that I have made some changes already. It has been very hard and continues to be, but at least I’m not saying to my mum, “no you can’t have any pics until bpd wife decides it’s time…” I think I should start sending mum at least one picture each week, and only half of them go to her mum. What do you think? Could I take some selfies with our beautiful babies?

[CookeiCrum]

Hey, just reading your story and some of what your saying about being controlling with the kids rang true with me.

My partner and I had some pretty serious fights about the kids, lots of comments about the kids not loving her, or even hating her etc. That I was trying to keep them away from her/snatching them from her. After a bit of soul searching I came to the realisation that the problem was, in part, being caused by me. Through her general instability I had start subconciously trying to shield the kids from her. Both because I was worried that they were too much for her and also because I saw that often times they would drain her emotional capacity, which in turn drove her to deregulate.

What helped was actually stepping back and leaving her alone with them more often. When she gets into situations where I see she is struggling, I try to leave her to it instead of "rescuing" her. Yeah I do get comments and the stink eye, but when she manages it, it helps boast her confiedence and in turn she is less defensive about them. I don't know if any of this applies to your situation, but I thought it might help.

Also the comment about the "Tea Cup" of love hit home, it often feels like she believes there is only a tea cup of sympathy in the world and so every scrap has to be fought over and guarded.

[babyducks]

hello again BP,

I’m not “allowed” to get a therapist because my wife does not want to be talked about behind her back.

Hmmmmm.   this gives me pause.     as you probably know BPD exists on a spectrum.    from people who have some symptoms and are very high functioning to people who are very low functioning.    the amount of control you are describe is a lot.    quite a lot.

She also refuses to attend therapy with me.

this is not at all unusual.    pwBPD (people with BPD) have a difficult time handling shame and blame.    they avoid admitting mistakes or errors.    taking a honest hard look at behavior is hard for anyone, especially so for people with mental illness.

It feels like a huge betrayal that I am here, but I desperately want to save our marriage,

I understand why it would feel like a betrayal that you are here posting but please keep doing it.     Everyone here is anonymous.   there is really no chance that you or your wife could be identified and the hope is that you learn skills and tools that  first help you, second help the relationship, and third help her.     

I have told her she’s controlling, of course.

How did that go?    there are special skills and tools to communicate with a pwBPD that increase the likelihood of being understood.   have you been to the library section of this website?

I should do it without discussion right? Also, the “rule” is I have to send the same pics to her mum but I’m sure she doesn’t always follow the rule as my poor mum hardly got anything when the rule was, “only bpd wife is allowed to take or send any pictures”. Please recognise that I have made some changes already. It has been very hard and continues to be, but at least I’m not saying to my mum, “no you can’t have any pics until bpd wife decides it’s time…” I think I should start sending mum at least one picture each week, and only half of them go to her mum. What do you think? Could I take some selfies with our beautiful babies?

before I take a shot at saying what I think about you taking pictures and sending them to your mother can we back up a couple of steps?     I'd like to go back to what you mentioned in your other post.

Someone on here suggested I should continue cuddling the child, and walk out of the room with her if necessary. I did try this. My wife snatched the child roughly from me and physically threw me out of the room. People were like, you know if she’s violent it’ll only get worse… Well, not really. We’ve been together seven years and the violence is almost non-existent now, in fact I think she had not exhibited any violence towards me for a year before that, and she hasn’t since.

from what you are describing there has been violence in the past, which does mean the chance is there for more violence.      Can you say if you feel safe?   Do you have access to your keys, car, money?    If you wanted to get up and leave the house are you free to do so?    I am not suggesting you do it but can you help me understand what would happen if you made an appointment to see a therapist?

I am going to include a link to the power and control wheel right below.   when you are ready please click it and take a look.     

www.ncdsv.org/images/PowerControlwheelNOSHADING.pdf

can you tell us how you see yourself on that wheel?

'ducks

[thankful person]

Cookie, thanks for your comments. I do try to leave my wife to cope, I’m often working anyway… but I get in trouble when jumping into help and particularly because I used to work in pre-school, I have extremely fast reactions and find it difficult not to act on them.
Ducks, yes I think my wife is very controlling but I do have my own car (in fact I also own her car on finance). I have my own money because I work, but whilst I’m always struggling to pay bills, she has more disposable cash from maternity and child benefit and many credit cards I probably don’t even know about. I would not arrange therapy, because I need to keep the peace. Similarly it’s one reason I don’t visit my parents more because she is constantly texting and demanding my attention. She has been violent in the past but usually because I do something I know will wind her up… the mask slips.. I can’t keep up the patience 24/7 especially when she insults me or my family.

I’m going to do a proper introduction post now.

[babyducks]

She has been violent in the past but usually because I do something I know will wind her up… 

She is not violent because you did or didn't do something.   She is violent because she is deliberately looking to maintain her control.   You are not responsible for her violence.   

I think I should start sending mum at least one picture each week, and only half of them go to her mum. What do you think? Could I take some selfies with our beautiful babies?

I think you should take as many pictures as you want and send them to who ever you want.    Children are only young for a short period of time.    Enjoy it while you can.

I also think you should have the agency to do your nails whatever way you want, play the piano whenever you feel like it, cuddle the children, swim and talk and visit with your parents.   I think you should wear the clothes your parents bought for you, dress the children in the clothes your parents bought and teach them the piano.

I do recognize that you don't feel comfortable doing that right now.    and I particularly recognize that it may not be safe to do that right now.

Changing that will generate some conflict.    how you handle that conflict is important.     what normally happens when a conflict begins between you and your wife?

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

You seem to be very passive and let your wife trammel all over you, even with very minor issues.

There was a time when you had more autonomy. You chose to leave a long-standing relationship with your boyfriend.

How did you get to the point where you’ve agreed to limit your freedom and personal choice so severely?

[thankful person]

Ducks thanks for reading my story and previous posts. I fear the situation may be worse than you realise with the control. Another small example is that I only shower once a week (after two days of domestic cleaning work). My wife showers even less because she is always attached to the baby and can’t leave her for long (breast feeding suffers). So I feel guilty and am made to feel terrible if I was more often, like everything it’s just easier not to upset her. Another thing is, she has trouble getting comfortable on the sofa and she’ll be to me and I’ll reply and she’ll suddenly screech GET OUT! And I have to wait to be invited back in. These days the dog and toddler follow me out and I rather like this, it feels like a show of support.  I’d love to know how to handle the issue of teaching the children to play the piano. The older one stands at the baby gate and watches me teach. She is bright and studious even at just under two years, she waits for me to say goodbye to the students before saying “hiiiiii” to me. She seems a lot like a child that would enjoy piano lessons to me. Do I break it to my wife in the next couple of years that I would want to teach her (if the child wants) out do I just wait and deal with it at the time (child would probably be terrified by the shouting  and reaction which would put her off for life).
I want you to know I am making small changes. I am going to see my parents next week. My wife’s like “what am I going to do? I can’t go anywhere with the kids on my own..” I DIDNT say sorry and I DIDNT say oh actually, would you prefer I don’t go. Our oldest says sorry as one of her first ten words which I think is so sad as she hears me say it far too much. So I’m stopping or saving it for special occasions of being sorry. And btw I just sent mum some pictures, even one of the baby which my wife took (I’m sure it’s forbidden). I’m not even going to send them to her mum. She will probably see in my phone oh well..
When we have conflict she shouts and shouts and I don’t shout, I used to but even when we got gerbils I personally found it very easy not to shout because of them, but apparently she doesn’t feel this as a dog and two kids she still shouts. She gets more angry if I mention it’s upsetting the children. I have an answer for everything and apparently I go on and on when it’s not necessary. She will withhold affection generally because she doesn’t get the sex she craves. When she’s in a mood she won’t say she loves me. At the worst times she says she wishes I would leave her. She believes she would get full custody of the children and tells me she’d still want me coming on holiday and for Christmas “with our new partners” LOL I genuinely believe I would be alone forever by choice if our relationship were to end.
Cat, I lost control very very soon with her, like within the first few messages. I was very depressed as a teenager and it was almost like I was always looking for someone to save. I just didn’t realise I would be costing to give up my other relationship, home, new country and beloved cat. I think if I’d had children with my ex I would not have “met” her because I specifically sought out suicidal young people I could “help”, it was the way I felt my life would have meaning.

[Cat Familiar]

You speak about *losing control* with her early on. Now you have two children and she gets angry, shouts, prevents you from supporting them emotionally or even teaching them to play the piano.

You are in an abusive relationship.

She is extending the abuse to your children.

What will motivate you to not only become their advocate, but also to stand up for yourself and be a role model of what a healthy adult is? Your partner is not going to do that. You must step up. And that means confronting your fear of her.

[I Am Redeemed]

BP,

Congratulations on making those small changes! When you're in an extremely controlling relationship, just taking the first small step towards asserting your right to make your own choices is actually huge. 

How does it make you feel to make a choice like this?

[thankful person]

You speak about *losing control* with her early on. Now you have two children and she gets angry, shouts, prevents you from supporting them emotionally or even teaching them to play the piano.

You are in an abusive relationship.

She is extending the abuse to your children.

What will motivate you to not only become their advocate, but also to stand up for yourself and be a role model of what a healthy adult is? Your partner is not going to do that. You must step up. And that means confronting your fear of her.

Cat I know all of these things. I completely agree with you that I need to stand up for my rights and those of my children. I need advice and support as to how to go about this. Thank you.

BP,

Congratulations on making those small changes! When you're in an extremely controlling relationship, just taking the first small step towards asserting your right to make your own choices is actually huge. 

How does it make you feel to make a choice like this?

I feel a little empowered but it has been a hard struggle. My mum texted me in February, desperately upset about never getting any photos of the first child, because my wife insisted she should be the only one to take and send photos. I posted anonymously on Facebook about this in a group (I wasn’t sure mum was partly to blame, but overwhelmingly, no, the opinion wife was. I then told my wife that I was going to start sending pictures to mum, whenever I wanted to (I had often broken the rule about taking the pictures, which she wasn’t happy about). My wife was so angry about my choice to defy her and disrespect her and go against her wishes. She said our relationship was over, if you read my earlier posts you would see this story. I can’t remember exactly what went down, but for a good couple of months she said she didn’t want to be with me. If I were to ask her now, she’d say, yes as long as things change for the better with the sex. If i asked on a bad day, she’d say, no because nothing’s changed. And the outcome is I am still nervous about taking photos. Our littlest is only four months and we both took many pictures in icu. Since then I’ve only taken about four pictures of her, one with me. My wife is upset that I’d want a picture without her in it. Also hates how she looks in pictures.. So overall, I’m glad I’m making small changes but it looks to be a massive uphill struggle. And I don’t want my children to grow up walking on eggshells all the time. I’m here for all the advice I can get but certainly not ready to announce I’m going to therapy (it’s against her wishes of course).

[I Am Redeemed]

Do you think she has the right to dictate whether or not you take pictures of your children and share them with their grandparents?

Do you believe you have the right to take pictures of your children with or without her in them?

Are you in every picture she takes?

What gives her the right to make all the "rules"?

Do you have any rules for your own life?

[Turkish]

She says I’m controlling but I don’t get why because I don’t stop her doing anything or seeing anybody

This sounds like Projection as you've indicated in other ways, such as you aren't allowed to do x,y, and z, such as post on Quora, among others.

Is that about your behaviors, or hers, do you think?

Might you think differently if she were a man exhibiting the same controlling behavior towards you?

Aside from that, do you feel that you and your kids are safe right now?

We have tools here which can help reduce conflict. Can you take a look and tell us what you think?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

There's a link to a discussion at the end. 

[babyducks]

Another small example is that I only shower once a week (after two days of domestic cleaning work).

is that what you want to do?     is that what you think is good to do?

My wife showers even less because she is always attached to the baby and can’t leave her for long (breast feeding suffers).

I've noticed you have mentioned this before.    what does always attached to the baby mean?    she puts the baby down for how long ?  how often?

  I’d love to know how to handle the issue of teaching the children to play the piano.

Have you ever heard of SET?    or JADE?    our friend Turkish gave you a link on how to handle conflict.    These are the skills and tools I keep talking about.    and like any skill they take practice.     much like the piano.     when you go to take a shower what stops you?    how does that conversation go?    if you play the conversation out here with us... we can suggest ways to make the discussion be more productive and less damaging for the children.    you're correct you don't want the kids exposed to shouting and verbal violence.    even as young as they are they it will impact them.

so you go to do something you want,... shower, swim, cuddle the children... what does your wife say?    as close as you can remember... what do you say... if you can provide us some generic details of how things slide so far down hill we can make suggestions to help you  keep things more on track.    can you try that?

I want you to know I am making small changes. I am going to see my parents next week. My wife’s like “what am I going to do? I can’t go anywhere with the kids on my own..” I DIDNT say sorry and I DIDNT say oh actually, would you prefer I don’t go.

I am glad you going to visit.    When did this come about?     I hope you have a nice comfortable trip.

in this example - when your wife said  “what am I going to do? I can’t go anywhere with the kids on my own..”   I would have suggested a SET response.

SET stands for Support Empathy Truth...
Support:  It is hard taking care of two children.
Empathy:   I know you'll do a good job with the kids.
Truth:   Still as my fathers health worsens I will need to make time to see him.

Now those are my words, you would need to use your own.   But can you see how a SET response acknowledges what your wife said but stands your ground around your truth?

And btw I just sent mum some pictures, even one of the baby which my wife took (I’m sure it’s forbidden). I’m not even going to send them to her mum. She will probably see in my phone oh well..

Why is she going to see them on your phone?     

When we have conflict she shouts and shouts and I don’t shout, I used to but even when we got gerbils I personally found it very easy not to shout because of them, but apparently she doesn’t feel this as a dog and two kids she still shouts. She gets more angry if I mention it’s upsetting the children. I have an answer for everything and apparently I go on and on when it’s not necessary.

Perhaps this is JADE?   JADE = Justify Argue Defend and Explain.   We recommend you not do it.    It tends to be invalidating to a pwBPD and it tends to prolong and heighten the argument.     

let's use showers as an example.   you want to shower every other day.    you Justify your want -  I need to shower more because I am more active - you Argue your want -   I shower to relax -  you Defend your want - experts say hygiene should be done X often - you Explain your want -   I think this is best.     All this JADE gives your wife more ammunition to work with.    things to argue back against.     it feeds the drama of the moment.    it gets you into a circular argument that goes nowhere.     and it assumes you need her to agree with you.    which you don't.   

does that make sense?

take some time to think about this and let us know.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Do you think she has the right to dictate whether or not you take pictures of your children and share them with their grandparents?

Do you believe you have the right to take pictures of your children with or without her in them?

Are you in every picture she takes?

What gives her the right to make all the "rules"?

Do you have any rules for your own life?

Yes I believe I have the right to take pictures of my children and send them to my parents. It has been a massive battle though. My wife at first seriously struggled with her breast milk supply so didn’t want to see many people for the first six months. My mum would be on the phone saying please can we see you or just have a photo. Wife would say, she’ll get a photo when I decide. Then it was the Covid lockdown. Of course protecting my parents was a great reason for wife to avoid any contact. Her mum got to visit though, she needed to get to know the older child before the little one was born. No I’m actually not in every picture she takes. But those are “breast feeding pictures” which is different for some reason. She sleeps with the children so that’s why she doesn’t want their sleep routines messed with in taking them out for the day. The older one also gets very sick but we have meds for her now we haven’t tried yet. She feels she has more rights as birth mother, and refers to herself as the main parent.

is that what you want to do?     is that what you think is good to do?

I've noticed you have mentioned this before.    what does always attached to the baby mean?    she puts the baby down for how long ?  how often?

Have you ever heard of SET?    or JADE?    our friend Turkish gave you a link on how to handle conflict.    These are the skills and tools I keep talking about.    and like any skill they take practice.     much like the piano.     when you go to take a shower what stops you?    how does that conversation go?    if you play the conversation out here with us... we can suggest ways to make the discussion be more productive and less damaging for the children.    you're correct you don't want the kids exposed to shouting and verbal violence.    even as young as they are they it will impact them.

so you go to do something you want,... shower, swim, cuddle the children... what does your wife say?    as close as you can remember... what do you say... if you can provide us some generic details of how things slide so far down hill we can make suggestions to help you  keep things more on track.    can you try that?


I am glad you going to visit.    When did this come about?     I hope you have a nice comfortable trip.

in this example - when your wife said  “what am I going to do? I can’t go anywhere with the kids on my own..”   I would have suggested a SET response.

SET stands for Support Empathy Truth...
Support:  It is hard taking care of two children.
Empathy:   I know you'll do a good job with the kids.
Truth:   Still as my fathers health worsens I will need to make time to see him.

Now those are my words, you would need to use your own.   But can you see how a SET response acknowledges what your wife said but stands your ground around your truth?

Why is she going to see them on your phone?     

Perhaps this is JADE?   JADE = Justify Argue Defend and Explain.   We recommend you not do it.    It tends to be invalidating to a pwBPD and it tends to prolong and heighten the argument.     

let's use showers as an example.   you want to shower every other day.    you Justify your want -  I need to shower more because I am more active - you Argue your want -   I shower to relax -  you Defend your want - experts say hygiene should be done X often - you Explain your want -   I think this is best.     All this JADE gives your wife more ammunition to work with.    things to argue back against.     it feeds the drama of the moment.    it gets you into a circular argument that goes nowhere.     and it assumes you need her to agree with you.    which you don't.   

does that make sense?

take some time to think about this and let us know.

'ducks

So, about the breastfeeding… my wife found with our first that her milk supply would severely suffer if she spent a couple of hours away from the baby. In particular I would get screeched at If the baby fell asleep on me. Because she should be breast fed to sleep. I had no part in sleep routines before the new one arrived. Now I put the bigger one down at lunch time nap. My wife is jealous because I get her dressed, ready for bed etc. I’d be happy to hold the other one but although she is feeding much better, she does cry after not long. I am not allowed to rock the baby to settle her as she may fall asleep. Set sounds good and I will try it. I am certainly guilty of Jade. When I said that sometimes I’ve caused her to get violent, it’s because on occasion when she’s been particularly ridiculous or unreasonable I have laughed at her. I know this is cruel and I’m not proud of it. I sometimes say, do you realise what other people would think about this? Of course she doesn’t care what other people think. Yep circular argument is certainly us. It’s crazy because I actually specialise in teaching “difficult children” with autism, adhd, odd, and often complex needs. And I’m really good at communicating with them and getting them to respond to me. I guess autism is nothing like bpd even though some of the surface symptoms are similar. My mum suggested I go visit them. It was the first time she’s suggested I go alone because I’m not allowed to take the children even the older one. I’m so sad because she’s only met mum for times and only once since she turned one (she’s nearly two). The child was so so tired that day and the only photo I got of them together she was crying. My wife has now invited just our parents to a little birthday party for d2. I just realised  my father in law will be there, usually he’s never there because he fell out with his other two daughters years ago and won’t see them. But hopefully he will get some good pictures. He has always wanted my parents to see the kids more and has told my wife this but she doesn’t care If he thinks that. Another thing was wife was always video calling her parents when our first was little, but she didn’t allow me to cos she’d do it when I’m working and when I’m not working is our time together. Also she would hate how much attention they gave  the baby. Ah so I see you also asked about the phone. She always looks at my phone to check for work messages as she likes to deal with them and be my pa. But I guess it’s also to check what I’ve been sending to my mum etc. I will look at the link on handling conflict.

[babyducks]

Just to be clear - the things you learn here, the tools and skills, the information you pick up; these are just for you.    not to be shared with your wife.    if you are logging on through a computer please wipe your browser history.    if you are using a smart phone clear your history there also.     

People with personality disorders are very rigid in their thinking. They are extremely self-absorbed and exhibit disproportionate selfish behaviors. Their capacity for introspection and empathy is quite poor. They tend to cope with life in very strategic manners, meaning they have a set of ideas, beliefs, and rules they go by in terms of how they see themselves and others.

For this reason, the constant struggle for power is present in the relationship. They are driven by the motive to outwit, manipulate, and get their way at all costs. They feel very strongly about their beliefs and they fiercely defend such beliefs as they are part of a self-protection system.

Its important to be honest about what this relationship can be like in terms of mutual support, cooperation, understanding and respect.     It isn't wise to hope the relationship returns to the early idealization or honeymoon stage, that isn't likely to happen.    If this relationship is going to be moved into a less abusive pattern it will be mostly on you to make and hold changes.   

what did you think about the handling conflict link?

[thankful person]

Hi ducks, absolutely, I only come here when I’m on my own and always delete the history. My wife is in denial about having bpd. Still, I am slowly taking the power back, just waiting for opportunities to handle things better. You will hopefully be so proud of me.. I am going to share it in a separate post because it may be of interest to someone else and seemed a long story once I typed it up!