My uBPDw doesn't want a safe/secure love? What other love is there? I'm confused

[DogMom2019]

Have you ever been told that your love was too safe, too structured, too secure as a reason that they can't be with you? My spouse told me that and then said a few days later that there was a "switch that flipped off" for her when she thinks about our marriage.

I thought that's the goal of love... To be with someone who you feel safe, secure, and stable with. At least that's my goal in life... Am I missing something here?

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[FirstSteps]

That seems exactly what most people would want.  It's certainly what I want!  I've had similar conversations with my uBPDw though.  I have started articulating what I want better and I say almost exactly this.  And she just rejects it and says "but that's your way, what about mine!"  Or "but I'll never be able to give that to you, what about me?"

It's disheartening.  I really struggled with balancing our two "points of view" but I'm now seeing I just have to know what's right for me.

[ILMBPDC]

I've been attending ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families) meetings since the beginning of the year and a few things in the ACA Laundry List really stands out:
     4. We either become alcoholics, marry them or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs.
     5. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
People with BPD almost always come from dysfunction and I can see that the above items makes a ton of sense if you look at it from that perspective - in essence, they keep recreating the childhood abandonment/drama parental relationship. I am learning that children from dysfunctional families often feel deep down they are not worthy of a true, secure, calm love - they don't know what to do with it.  My BPDex seems to fit this - he says values me, we have deep, intimate conversations, he says being with me is "easy" and yet...he doesn't want to be with me. Its like its too calm for him.

And, sadly, I can attest to this myself, being from dysfunction as well - I personally don't want the chaos, but I have a really hard time with men who treat me well, like I feel at my core I'm not worth it, so I cling to people like my ex and keep hurting myself over and over (funny enough the ACA meeting I was in last night talked about this, and how its a form of self harm).

In my case, I am re-detaching from my ex (we were no contact for 3 1/2 months last year, and I wish it would have stayed that way). I know how dysfunctional the relationship is, even at a friendship level, because I can't let go of the thought of us eventually being together. Maybe it would be different if he was actually trying to work on his issues but he is not and I can't wait around for him to hit rock bottom and at this point I am clinging to something that is not good for me at a core level but I am working hard on learning to let go.

Anyway, I know this is the bettering board and I wish you luck, I just wanted to share some insight I recently learned that may at least help you understand the "why" of the statement.

[NonnyMouse]

I have read on another forum (one mainly for those with BPD) how pwBPD can thrive on chaos. But in some cases they eventually learn to live with boring and ordinary and that's a big breakthrough for them. Of course, there is no way to get a pwBPD to get to that stage!

[DogMom2019]

That seems exactly what most people would want.  It's certainly what I want!  I've had similar conversations with my uBPDw though.  I have started articulating what I want better and I say almost exactly this.  And she just rejects it and says "but that's your way, what about mine!"  Or "but I'll never be able to give that to you, what about me?"

It's disheartening.  I really struggled with balancing our two "points of view" but I'm now seeing I just have to know what's right for me.

It really is FirstSteps... I was so baffled when she said this. Since this is a "new" thing to throw at me as to why this marriage isn't working... It didn't occur to me to tell her that 'hey I WANT a love that's stable, secure, and safe, so now what?"

I mean where are they handing out those marriages! 

But it is discouraging when I want her to be happy but the love she is asking of me doesn't make sense to me. Thanks for responding, it's good to know that this is particular to me and the way I love.

[DogMom2019]

I've been attending ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families) meetings since the beginning of the year and a few things in the ACA Laundry List really stands out:
     4. We either become alcoholics, marry them or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs.
     5. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
People with BPD almost always come from dysfunction and I can see that the above items makes a ton of sense if you look at it from that perspective - in essence, they keep recreating the childhood abandonment/drama parental relationship. I am learning that children from dysfunctional families often feel deep down they are not worthy of a true, secure, calm love - they don't know what to do with it.  My BPDex seems to fit this - he says values me, we have deep, intimate conversations, he says being with me is "easy" and yet...he doesn't want to be with me. Its like its too calm for him.

And, sadly, I can attest to this myself, being from dysfunction as well - I personally don't want the chaos, but I have a really hard time with men who treat me well, like I feel at my core I'm not worth it, so I cling to people like my ex and keep hurting myself over and over (funny enough the ACA meeting I was in last night talked about this, and how its a form of self harm).

In my case, I am re-detaching from my ex (we were no contact for 3 1/2 months last year, and I wish it would have stayed that way). I know how dysfunctional the relationship is, even at a friendship level, because I can't let go of the thought of us eventually being together. Maybe it would be different if he was actually trying to work on his issues but he is not and I can't wait around for him to hit rock bottom and at this point I am clinging to something that is not good for me at a core level but I am working hard on learning to let go.

Anyway, I know this is the bettering board and I wish you luck, I just wanted to share some insight I recently learned that may at least help you understand the "why" of the statement.

This! I mean everything about this reply! She has told me several times that being with me was easy, and how great we are together, etc, until we are not, then the opposite happens, but I don't like chows too long. An example: We were eating out and the waiter complimented and conversed with my spouse. I thought it was kind of him I didn't think anything of it. When the gentlemen left the table, my spouse started asking all kinds of provoking questions, almost trying to rev me up. And with each non-elevated response, she continued until she asked me, "you must not care about me or us because that guy was hitting on me and you didn't do anything." I was blown away. He wasn't disrespectful but because I didn't act out of character (loud & obnoxious) I didn't show my love correctly. It can be a lot.

Where did you find this ACA? Sounds interesting... My spouse came from a broken home with an alcoholic and abusive father, maybe I can gain some insight.

[DogMom2019]

I have read on another forum (one mainly for those with BPD) how pwBPD can thrive on chaos. But in some cases they eventually learn to live with boring and ordinary and that's a big breakthrough for them. Of course, there is no way to get a pwBPD to get to that stage!

Get out of my head, NonnyMouse! I was just going to ask... How do I get her to that stage? I digress. I really wish I could get her to at least on the road... I don't mind walking it with her... But I can't do anything if she's running in the opposite direction. *Sigh*

[NonnyMouse]

Get out of my head, NonnyMouse! I was just going to ask... How do I get her to that stage? I digress. I really wish I could get her to at least on the road... I don't mind walking it with her... But I can't do anything if she's running in the opposite direction. *Sigh*

It's v common for pwBPD to get to a certain age (just shy of 50 here) and realise that they haven't achieved much in life (well, they probably haven't), and they aren't getting any younger (none of us is). In my wife's case she spends all day on Instagram and calls it 'research.' And she is absolutely serious.

[ILMBPDC]

Where did you find this ACA? Sounds interesting... My spouse came from a broken home with an alcoholic and abusive father, maybe I can gain some insight.

adultchildren (dot) org is a good start point, though if you search "adult children of alcoholics" you will get a ton of results, its been around for 35 years or so.

I also tell people to search for the ACA Laundry List which is a list of traits exhibited by children of dysfunctional families. I have 12 of the 14 traits. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It was very, very eye opening to understand that not only are my defense mechanisms because of childhood trauma but that other people have the same issues. Its crazy to listen to people share in meetings - almost everyone's experiences mirror mine. I also see traits the my BPDex has in the laundry list, which doesn't surprise me at all.

[NonnyMouse]

I'd add that it's interesting to go to these meetings even if you haven't got problems! My uBPDw convinced me I had anger management issues so I went on an anger-management course. I learned I didn't have issues. Then she convinced me I was co-dependent, so...CODA...again no issues. But I learned a lot about people with problems. And these people were so obviously different from me. (I guess you can't just turn up at meetings to see the other side! In my case I really thought I was to blame, so that's ok, I hope.)

[Cat Familiar]

Having married two BPD husbands, I’ve noticed a trend of fearing and avoiding boredom. With my first husband, whenever things became somewhat stable, whether it was emotionally or financially, he’d create a crisis.

My current husband, who is much more emotionally healthy, still need to create change, whether it be buying new things, pre-covid—going out of town to see music events, changing some pattern. Lots of times these choices create problems.

I suspect that when things are too stable, then they’re forced to self-examine more and that can be very uncomfortable for someone who has issues about self-loathing and shame.

[hands down]

Attempting to rationalize, irrational thoughts— is….  Irrational. 


Write this down, you’ll need it.

[Notwendy]

Having been involved in ACA for a while, I can share some info about it. First of all- it's for adult children who grew up with alcohol or dysfunction in the family. While that doesn't mean all ACA are disordered themselves, ( most in the group are not because generally disordered people are less inclined to work on themselves in this setting) growing up in a family with disorder, we have learned some behaviors that were functional in our family settings but dysfunctional in our adult relationships. We are there because we want to change that.

One example for me is that, growing up, we were all expected to be co-dependent caretakers of my BPD mother. I brought these behaviors into my adult relationships- they were the "normal" in my family and so for kids growing up like this, we don't know any different. But these behaviors caused issues in relationships and so I worked on them through a group like ACA.

The Laundry List of ACA is not BPD. Now some people with BPD might have some of these features, it's qualities that adult children of dysfunction might need to work on such as "afraid of angry people" which one might have excessively from the experience of being raged at as a small child. Where it isn't functional is in adult relationships where we are not in danger. I recall a parking attendant yelling at me to park in a different spot. Someone else may have thought she was having a bad day and just moved their car. I moved my car but then had to sit there to calm my own emotional reaction to that. ACA helps us to become aware of these traits and move forward from them.

While ACA might help your wife- unless she herself wants to do it, work at it and stick to it, it won't  work for her. ACA also does not address mental illnesses. It's a lay person group, not psychotherapy. Some people who grew up in disordered families are also disordered and so that is a separate issue. ACA is also not for partners, unless they too have grown up with similar issues but each person needs to work on their own issues, not on someone else's. It is not for partners who want to come to see how they can understand their spouses, because it's personal self work.

Personally, I don't think these groups are suited to people with BPD. It requires being able to accept feedback from others on your own personal behaviors that are not functional - if a member vents - the group may not agree with them and may gently push that person to see their part in an issue. It's support but sometimes tough love support. I don't think most people with BPD could tolerate something like this, I think they'd likely paint the group  black and leave if held accountable for their behaviors. Psychotherapy and DBT are more suited to BPD and event then, if a pwBPD isn't motivated it's hard for these to be effective in promoting personal change.

ACA was recommended by a counselor, and I didn't think I was in that category- I do have a disordered mother but don't have issues with drinking or addiction. I didn't see the connection. The group is open to anyone- so yes, some people who walk in have major issues. But at the core is a group of people who are committed to working on themselves. They were good role models. It takes some work and grit to overcome an addiction and so there's strength there. But yes, we do look at who we want to ask to be a sponsor or who we want to work with and can pick someone with qualities we wish to have.

[ILMBPDC]

The Laundry List of ACA is not BPD

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that ACA = BPD at all.
At the same time, a lot of them come from dysfunctional homes and may very well have a lot of the traits in addition to BPD, I know my ex does. And, a lot of us (the nons) may also come from dysfunctional homes - hence why we end up in  dysfunctional relationships (as noted by the laundry list items I pointed out).
I don't necessarily recommend ACA just for the heck of it but for me it has helped immensely in realizing why I get into these relationships in the first place.

[Notwendy]

I agree- ACA has been a big help to me. I just wanted to clarify what it was about for posters who are not familiar with it.

I think many of us come here wanting to understand the pwBPD we are connected to, and this helps a lot, but ultimately, we need to do some self work if we want to see change. If we grew up with family dysfunction, ACA may help us do that, but attending ACA to help understand/change the pwBPD probably won't do much. I just wanted to make that clear.

I agree there can be overlap in some of the Laundry List tendencies with both the pwBPD and with their partner.

[ILMBPDC]

I think many of us come here wanting to understand the pwBPD we are connected to, and this helps a lot, but ultimately, we need to do some self work if we want to see change. If we grew up with family dysfunction, ACA may help us do that, but attending ACA to help understand/change the pwBPD probably won't do much. I just wanted to make that clear.

I agree 100%. ACA isn't for changing someone else, its for working on ourselves

[DogMom2019]

Attempting to rationalize, irrational thoughts— is….  Irrational. 

Write this down, you’ll need it.

And yet... I wake up trying to figure it out and I go to sleep trying to figure it out. What other tips do you have? 

[hands down]

And yet... I wake up trying to figure it out and I go to sleep trying to figure it out.

My tip is written by you above - there is your work. 

The cycle of you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking

[ILMBPDC]

And yet... I wake up trying to figure it out and I go to sleep trying to figure it out. What other tips do you have?  

I spent a lot of time reading about BPD, trying to understand the mechanisms of the disorder, even if the thoughts and actions were irrational. I started to realize that none of us can truly understand what goes on in their brains. After the initial discard, it was driving me completely nuts trying to understand how he could go from talking about having kids with me one day to barely talking to me for a week and a half (which I chalked up to him moving at the time) and then suddenly telling me he met someone he "saw a future with". No warning, no fight, no discussion. Who the eff does that?  Later, he told me he "never wanted anything more [than friends]" with me...yeah I beg to differ. It drove me practically insane, trying to understand the thought process. Trying to understand the switch in his brain that somehow turned off in a matter of days (hours? minutes? who even knows).

Once I accepted that I would never understand, I started to feel a lot better. But it took a lot to get to that point. I am an analytical person by nature and I have a need to understand how things work, so this was an exercise in letting that need go.

I don't know if that helps you at all. I just think that at some level us nons get so wrapped up in trying to understand something we cannot and we have to get to a point of radical acceptance and let it go.

[DogMom2019]

I spent a lot of time reading about BPD, trying to understand the mechanisms of the disorder, even if the thoughts and actions were irrational. I started to realize that none of us can truly understand what goes on in their brains. After the initial discard, it was driving me completely nuts trying to understand how he could go from talking about having kids with me one day to barely talking to me for a week and a half (which I chalked up to him moving at the time) and then suddenly telling me he met someone he "saw a future with". No warning, no fight, no discussion. Who the eff does that?  Later, he told me he "never wanted anything more [than friends]" with me...yeah I beg to differ. It drove me practically insane, trying to understand the thought process. Trying to understand the switch in his brain that somehow turned off in a matter of days (hours? minutes? who even knows).

Once I accepted that I would never understand, I started to feel a lot better. But it took a lot to get to that point. I am an analytical person by nature and I have a need to understand how things work, so this was an exercise in letting that need go.

I don't know if that helps you at all. I just think that at some level us nons get so wrapped up in trying to understand something we cannot and we have to get to a point of radical acceptance and let it go.

Everything in this... Ouch! I mean... Big OUCH! I just started learning about radical acceptance a few days ago so I am hoping this helps.

Thanks!

[DogMom2019]

My tip is written by you above - there is your work. 

The cycle of you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking

Well, when you out it like that... I feel a little foolish and exhausted. Thank you for that insight!

[Cat Familiar]

Lots of times doing less, trying less, thinking about it less is what can make things better.

[DogMom2019]

Lots of times doing less, trying less, thinking about it less is what can make things better.

Logically, I can see that. At the same time, my fear is if I stop reaching out then that's it. My marriage is done. We are already temporarily geographically separated (so object constancy is playing against us) and in my mind, if I don't keep it up... Our life together will just fade in her background.

[thankful person]

The cycle of you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking leads to you fixing leads to them freaking

Thank you hands down, this is so insightful. I finally started breaking this cycle in my own relationship last year. It started off very rocky because I was attempting to create boundaries several months before I found our bpd family here… and I did everything wrong… but it’s got easier along the way. The change in my wife and in our relationship has been incredible.

[Methuen]

Have you ever been told that your love was too safe, too structured, too secure as a reason that they can't be with you?

First let me say I'm from the PSI board, so my pwBPD is a parent and not a spouse.  But I have learned some things.

I had a T once explain to me that because my mom grew up in a chaotic home that was also unsafe (all the children were abused by their father), chaos was her "normal".  Comfort and stability made her uncomfortable if it lasted too long.  As an only child growing up, I noticed (as did my father), that anytime life was going along smoothly, she would somehow create a crisis, out of nothing, or even out of something positive (like a planned trip).  The way my T explained it, "stable living" was outside of her "comfort box" (her comfort box = chaos).  Any time she was outside of this chaos (chaos was her comfort zone because it was "normal" to her"), she would need to create "chaos" to get comfortable again.  I've always wondered if this is one partial explanation why pwBPD need so much drama.

Having shared that, my dad was an incredibly patient man with pretty traditional values, and very pragmatic.  He handled her as well an any human could.  After he died, she relied on me to be her "caretaker".  Their marriage lasted about 44 years until he died from complications with Parkinson's and dementia.  I have no doubt that they would still be married if he were alive.  He genuinely loved her.  When he died, I believe she suffered a relapse of her "sense of abandonment".  Her first "abandonment" would have been when her mother died when she was 14, and she was left with an abusive father.

With my first husband, whenever things became somewhat stable, whether it was emotionally or financially, he’d create a crisis.

This fits with my observations growing up, and what my T said.  When they dysregulate emotionally, I either give my mom space and time to "self soothe", or, if appropriate use SET and try to validate her emotions, without validating the invalid.

In my experience, the things my mom says when she's dysregulated, aren't necessarily things she would still say when her emotions are regulated again.  Eg. If your partner said: "too safe, too structured, too secure as a reason that they can't be with you?" when she was emotional, she could feel very very different about it when she's feeling herself again.  So just because she says something when she's feeling emotional, doesn't mean she feels it when she's more regulated.  

Sometimes you gotta take the things they say with a grain of salt, and not take it personal, because it isn't personal.  My T also told me to remember it's "the disease saying those things, not the person".  At least that's how my memory processed what T said.

[DogMom2019]

I had a T once explain to me that because my mom grew up in a chaotic home that was also unsafe (all the children were abused by their father), chaos was her "normal".  Comfort and stability made her uncomfortable if it lasted too long.  As an only child growing up, I noticed (as did my father), that anytime life was going along smoothly, she would somehow create a crisis, out of nothing, or even out of something positive (like a planned trip).  The way my T explained it, "stable living" was outside of her "comfort box" (her comfort box = chaos).  Any time she was outside of this chaos (chaos was her comfort zone because it was "normal" to her"), she would need to create "chaos" to get comfortable again.  I've always wondered if this is one partial explanation why pwBPD need so much drama.

In my experience, the things my mom says when she's dysregulated, aren't necessarily things she would still say when her emotions are regulated again.  Eg. If your partner said: "too safe, too structured, too secure as a reason that they can't be with you?" when she was emotional, she could feel very very different about it when she's feeling herself again.  So just because she says something when she's feeling emotional, doesn't mean she feels it when she's more regulated.  

Sometimes you gotta take the things they say with a grain of salt, and not take it personal, because it isn't personal.  My T also told me to remember it's "the disease saying those things, not the person".  At least that's how my memory processed what T said.

I appreciate your willingness to share what your T has given you! This makes a lot of sense when things are good my spouse brings up all kinds of irrational things. She told me in October than she would rather have someone who is "crazy and passionate, all over the place than to stay with someone who has plans and sticks to them like you. You always have a plan for everything!." I believe you are right when it comes to what they say... It's just hard discerning what they say when they have been consistently saying the same thing for the last 6 months. Radical Acceptance is helping me unravel the need for me to not take what she says personal.