Validation vs. Condoning

[who_knows11]

I'm working through some of the tools within the site as well as reading many of the posts and replies.  Validation is obviously one of the biggest issues in dealing with pwBPD.  When that is coupled with trying not to JADE I run into a dilemma in my mind.  If we are conceding that a pwBPD has trouble distinguishing feeling from fact then how does validating their feelings not in turn validate a set of inaccurate facts that they hold such a strong conviction of as a result of the feelings we are trying to validate?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

We say “Don’t validate the invalid.” Validation is tricky. What it means is to understand someone’s perspective, not necessarily to agree with it.  

Here’s a short article on validation:
validation in DBT

[who_knows11]

We say “Don’t validate the invalid.” Validation is tricky. What it means is to understand someone’s perspective, not necessarily to agree with it.  

Here’s a short article on validation:
validation in DBT

Thank you that was helpful in clarifying that dilemma. I can see where the trickiness arises. What if in the process of trying to validate they respond with so you are agreeing that you are doing these things? Am I able to disagree without JADEing and still be validating of the feelings at the same time?

I’m sorry, as you can tell I’m really struggling with figure out how to handle all of this

[alterK]

You validate someone when you let them know that you are paying attention and understand (or at least are trying to understand) what is reality for them. That is something entirely different from agreeing with them. You can give someone a validating response whether or not you agree with what they're saying.

A JADE response is one which basically participates in a pwBPD's reality, and it will fail to solve a problem 99.9% of the time. If you disagree with them, you are entitled to say what you believe, and if you can, do it in a non-confrontational manner. If you are truly dealing with someone with BPD, you should not have much expectation that you'll change their mind, at least not with one conversation.

You have to make decisions and take actions that make sense to you, usually without expecting much in the way of return validation. This is difficult, and no one learns to do it without making mistakes along the way. No need to apologize. It's a struggle. I'd suggest you look at some of the books in the "Tools" section of this website. Some of them provide good insight into these kinds of interactions.

[who_knows11]

You validate someone when you let them know that you are paying attention and understand (or at least are trying to understand) what is reality for them. That is something entirely different from agreeing with them. You can give someone a validating response whether or not you agree with what they're saying.

A JADE response is one which basically participates in a pwBPD's reality, and it will fail to solve a problem 99.9% of the time. If you disagree with them, you are entitled to say what you believe, and if you can, do it in a non-confrontational manner. If you are truly dealing with someone with BPD, you should not have much expectation that you'll change their mind, at least not with one conversation.

You have to make decisions and take actions that make sense to you, usually without expecting much in the way of return validation. This is difficult, and no one learns to do it without making mistakes along the way. No need to apologize. It's a struggle. I'd suggest you look at some of the books in the "Tools" section of this website. Some of them provide good insight into these kinds of interactions.

I will definitely take a look at them.  Also, that does make sense.  Therein lies the trickiness I guess.  Trying to help them understand that you do see their reality even though you disagree with it.  She always mentions wanting to be understood.  While I can see that she has a different reality and accept that, I don't know how I can understand it.  Perhaps she knows I will struggle to understand it and that, in turn, makes things harder for her yet again.  I don't know

[alterK]

Indeed it is tricky, and often our first impulses are toward behavior that makes things worse, rather than better. It may not be clear, when someone is saying they want to be understood, whether that really means they want you to be aware of what is going on inside them, or whether they just want your agreement.

Several of the books have sections on mindfulness. That includes learning to take the time to make considered responses, rather than automatic ones. Good that you are thinking of reading. If you pursue this you have the chance to feel much more empowered to handle a difficult relationship.

[15years]

I also wonder how o respond when they say "so you agree/confess that I'm right?". I have confessed to strange things just to end a situation.

[thankful person]

If you are truly dealing with someone with BPD, you should not have much expectation that you'll change their mind, at least not with one conversation.

I have found with my wife (diagnosed bpd) that if I state my case once and then abandon any hope or goal of changing her mind.. then she will often come round to my way of thinking all on her own. Then she presents it back to me as her own idea, almost as though we never discussed it before. The more confrontational it becomes, the less likely she will agree and see my point of view, and the longer the conflict will last.

[Cat Familiar]

I also wonder how o respond when they say "so you agree/confess that I'm right?". I have confessed to strange things just to end a situation.

How about saying, “I think I understand what you are saying. My opinion is different.”

[who_knows11]

What I seem to be gathering the most from the dialogue on this site is that the main thing that can be done is to set some boundaries/limits for the relationship, at least as far as the conflict part goes, and hopefully the pwBPD will be able to accept and live with those boundaries.  It sounds selfish but really is the only way to create a little normality for everyone on the outside of the issue, namely the children. 

As a person who doesn't live/act in response to emotion, I have a hard time connecting with my wife's issues that she has with me because her reality is constructed entirely from emotion.  For her, the emotion is the reality and for me the emotion misconstrues the reality of the facts.  Perhaps the only difference is my external, objective view of what is happening versus her internal, subjective one.  She wants me to behave more emotionally but for me to do so would be to not be true to myself in regards to both logic and my faith.

Also, the consensus seems to be that the only true change that can happen would come from the pwBPD taking that responsibility upon themselves.  It can't be pushed, and in my case with her not having a diagnosis or seeing a therapist then BPD can't even be mentioned.  My question then becomes how does a person whose entire reality is based upon the fact that everyone other than his/her self is at fault take on the self responsibility required to first accept, and then, make a change?

[Cat Familiar]

My question then becomes how does a person whose entire reality is based upon the fact that everyone other than his/her self is at fault take on the self responsibility required to first accept, and then, make a change?

They don’t. They won’t.

Until they become uncomfortable or dissatisfied enough, they are unlikely to want to look within to see their part in the dynamic and decide to do things differently.

Because victimhood has been their role, since forever, the idea that this may not be true is unlikely to be embraced, as they have so many reasons to support this hypothesis.

[who_knows11]

My question then becomes how does a person whose entire reality is based upon the fact that everyone other than his/her self is at fault take on the self responsibility required to first accept, and then, make a change?

They don’t. They won’t.

Until they become uncomfortable or dissatisfied enough, they are unlikely to want to look within to see their part in the dynamic and decide to do things differently.

Because victimhood has been their role, since forever, the idea that this may not be true is unlikely to be embraced, as they have so many reasons to support this hypothesis.

That was another topic I was interested in.  Almost a year before I learned of BPD I was fully convinced that my W had a victim mentality.  Is that something that just automatically comes with BPD?  As a child she was truly a victim, in every sense of the word.  Today she still considers herself a victim in every situation despite the fact that she has risen out of everything that happened as a child and has pretty much everything she wants in life other than the internal, emotional stability

[Cat Familiar]

Regardless of external success, her self concept is one of being a victim. This is unlikely to change.

[alterK]

So now, the question is what can you do to work on yourself so that you become more able to cope with this situation? Given that you can't change her, only yourself, what do you want to do next? This is NOT a simple matter.

[Skip]

A point that is often missed is that the first thing we want to learn is how not to be invalidating. Many of us are invalidating to our partners because they are impulsive and they live in a very choppy emotional sea and we get can caught up on a swell rather than riding it out.

Staying away from JADE type comments is all about not being invalidating.

Simple example.  

Partner: You really don't respect me. BPDF member: Yes I do, I respect you more than anyone does. I am a very respectful person, everyone say that about me.

In this example, BPDF member's response was invalidating - in essence BPDF member was saying is "you are wrong",  "I respect you but you don't know what respect is", and "whatever it is that you are feeling is off because your compass in broken".

It would be much less invalidating to say.  "Hey, let's talk. Tell me what you are feeling."

Then listen, ask sincere questions, maybe plant one seed in your defense, and say you need time to think about it and suggest getting back and talking about it later in the week (when emotions have cooled - don't say this part).

This is generally a good blue print for handling emotional volatility. Give your partner the attention and the space to self sooth.

I also wonder how o respond when they say "so you agree/confess that I'm right?".

How to not invalidate and not validate the invalid? Tricky.

"I'm not sure. I accept that you do not feel respected and I don't want that for you or for us. Personally, in my heart I have deep respect for you so there is clearly a disconnect and I don't know what exactly it is but maybe we can try to figure that out. Something I'm doing is making you feel disrespected and that is not what either of us want."

[who_knows11]

So now, the question is what can you do to work on yourself so that you become more able to cope with this situation? Given that you can't change her, only yourself, what do you want to do next? This is NOT a simple matter.

The further I have gotten into this, the less I am sure of what I want to do next.  You're right, it's definitely not simple.  I'm trying to find traits in myself that I can better.  One of her big issues is that I am not emotional or affectionate enough.  The truth of the matter is that I'm just not an emotional or affectionate person, but to her it means I don't actually love her or I would be better at those things.  I am trying to be better at those things, although for me it is a personality trait and not just a choice of whether or not I want to be those things.  Even, at that it's not that I'm simply NOT affectionate.  It's that my affection doesn't look like what she thinks ALL affection is supposed to look like so in her mind I don't show it at all.  I'm not even sure that this is connected to BPD, maybe just intensified by it.  Who knows?  I've let it affect other places in my life, namely my job, although not in a depressed emotional type way.  Simply in that I cater to her emotions and as a result I alter the way I do other things in order to be able to cater.  That's probably not good for any part of my life.

[Cat Familiar]

https://www.verywellmind.com/can-the-five-love-languages-help-your-relationship-4783538

Have you heard of the 5 love languages? It seems yours and your wife’s are different.

[who_knows11]

https://www.verywellmind.com/can-the-five-love-languages-help-your-relationship-4783538

Have you heard of the 5 love languages? It seems yours and your wife’s are different.

I actually thought about that book while I was typing that. I haven’t actually read it, I have only reviewed the premise of the book. I understand what it is about but haven’t actually sat and read it. The book is sitting on the island in our kitchen because my wife started reading it. However, and this is just speculation on my part, I don’t believe she read the whole thing. She read the part that justified for her what she has been saying and to my knowledge hasn’t picked it back up. I say that because it sat in the same place for quite a while opened to the same page without moving. I agree our languages are different. Therefore that is something to work on as I stated in the previous post. However, seeing as the illustration is language, it’s me trying to speak a language that I don’t know. I would love to be able to speak French but I have no clue how to. Yes I can learn it, and I have told her that. The reply though, is if you love someone you shouldn’t have to learn or try to do it. It should be natural to speak her language and I just don’t see that this is the case. She wants it to be natural or genuine but since I am not a naturally affectionate person in the way she sees affection I don’t see how I can do it in a way that is not an effort or is just natural. Am I wrong in seeing it that way?

[Cat Familiar]

it’s me trying to speak a language that I don’t know. I would love to be able to speak French but I have no clue how to. Yes I can learn it, and I have told her that. The reply though, is if you love someone you shouldn’t have to learn or try to do it. It should be natural to speak her language and I just don’t see that this is the case. She wants it to be natural or genuine but since I am not a naturally affectionate person in the way she sees affection I don’t see how I can do it in a way that is not an effort or is just natural. Am I wrong in seeing it that way?

Obviously there were similarities between you two that caused you to form a bond. Now she is focusing on the differences.

Learning how to speak another’s love language, by definition, takes effort and is not natural at the beginning. But so is every other thing we humans strive to learn. Driving a car isn’t natural at first. Now most of us do it effortlessly.

Learning to speak her love language fluently is worth a try.

[justcantgiveup]

I also wonder how o respond when they say "so you agree/confess that I'm right?". I have confessed to strange things just to end a situation.

Me too! And every single one of those things have been thrown back in my face and used as weapons against me.