BPD MIL Update

[Notwendy]

It's tough, but also I have done a lot of work in counseling to get to even be able to say no to her. I don't know where your H is at with this, and also what the nature of their relationship is. It's interesting because the golden child in the family has a lot more difficulty saying no to BPD mom. Their relationship is different because I think there has been some good times between them. As her scapegoat child, she's been different with me. This doesn't mean I would want to say or do anything that might hurt her, I don't. In fact, I think I've put in more effort to win my parents' approval. However, we don't have a warm connection.

I don't know what kind of relationship your H has with his mother.

Ultimately though, I think the boundary needs to be with you. For your H, he wants it both ways- to not have to say no to his mother and also to have his marriage. I understand you don't want to put him in the position to choose, but if it does come down to his mother moving near you- you might be.

Boundaries are not what we impose on another person. It's what we choose to do when our boundary is crossed. We can not control another person- we can only decide what we would do about it.

My take on this situation is that, your H will do as much as you tolerate. Saying no to BPD mom may be harder for him than saying no to you. This is because of the dynamics he grew up with and also your more reasonable behavior. But this also gives you the short end of the stick when it comes to his time and attention. It may be that he could only say no to his mother when it becomes harder to say no to you.

This doesn't mean you act out like his mom. However, if your boundary on having mother near you is something important to you, you will likely need to be the one to defend it. " Honey, I love you and value our marriage, and I agree it's important to help a parent to some extent, but if your mother moves here, the impact on our marriage will be considerable. I need you to consider the marriage first. I don't want her to move here."

What he does is up to him. Then you need to consider what you would do if he did agree to moving his mother near you.

[formflier]

I see another possibility.

The boundary of distance could be a gift to your hubby.  Is it more reasonable to think he will develop the ability to say no to Mom...or that he puts the marriage in front of Mom...and that is the "reason" he says no..or delays...or doesn't make a decision either way.

MIL:  I'm moving up there

Hubby:  I don't know Mom, let me talk to PJ.

He didn't say yes or no...but he followed through with his promise to you.

To me...that seems to be a more realistic achievement than.

MIL:  I'm moving up here...bring the truck tomorrow.

Hubby:  No Mom..I won't allow that.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

ff, I think there is a possibility that if I communicate effectively, H will understand the gravity of choosing his mom over me. This understanding may help inform his choices, one way or the other.

Hubby:  I don't know Mom, let me talk to PJ.

He might say this to his mom if she was talking about where to meet for lunch, but about her proximity to him? No way. It would position me between the two of them as the decider and trigger her insecurity. His current MO is to casually let her ramble, give a noncommittal response and change the subject.

He won't tell her flat no, either.

Best case scenario: he settles on a response with me and himself, and comes up with a response something like, "I don't think that's the best thing for you mom," explain and repeat as necessary.

Worst case scenario: becomes more and more miserable and trapped and blames me as an outlet for his own guilt.

Potential scenario I don't want to even think about: H and I discuss her moving here for 6-12 months in counseling...yeah no I can't even finish it. It's a train wreck waiting to happen, even if we have the best boundaries laid out.

She can get mean but she is 95% waif. She won't make demands because they won't work on him. She'll cry, reminisce about his dad, wish that someone cared, talk about loneliness and depression. Occasionally she won't pick up when he calls so that he panics. She won't take care of herself which will result in harm so H will feel guilty. She'll report her sadness to other people who will call H and tell him he should take better care of her.

NW, you mentioned not getting him to choose between us. I kind of agree. I'd never get between him and his mom or ask him not to talk to her and see her. That would violate my values. I want him to feel free to go see her anytime he wants to. But I can and should be his priority when it comes to communicating, planning, living life, and making decisions. Prioritizing me may have the natural consequence of making him and MIL sad, maybe even miss out on things. I empathize with any loss they may feel. Doesn't mean it's not right to prioritize me.

I like the way you keep stressing that he wants both me and his mom happy, juggling both so no one gets upset. It's made me appreciate that our counselor talks a lot about making team decisions and prioritizing each other. This all gives me insight into potential, more effective ways of talking to him about this.

And you're right, I can't control him so my goal is to communicate my desires/values early and often so that he's working with accurate, up to date information. I can communicate effectively so that he understands the gravity of this for me/us. If he decides outside of me, that is a major red flag on so many levels and I can work to make the consequences clear so that if he chooses mom, he's also knowingly choosing consequences for our relationship.

Maybe that's still trying to control him? I'm trying to stay in my lane.

Thanks for your help all. I really appreciate you and this space to work it all out.

[formflier]

 His current MO is to casually let her ramble, give a noncommittal response and change the subject.

He won't tell her flat no, either.

 

So...yes there is risk here...but I think it's "more likely than not" that you should declare victory and move on.

Yes..remain vigilant and some sort of recurring reminder or question "Anything we need to discuss about your Mom?"

And then move on with life.

As I've "gotten to know" your hubby I came to the same conclusion of the quote that I bolded.  The good news is...his responses have been working...so far.


Thoughts?


Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

NW, you mentioned not getting him to choose between us. I kind of agree.

PJ , I meant that it seems this is what you wanted to do. Honestly, with BPD, from my own experience- there needs to be a firm boundary. Being "nice" and not saying "no" - for my BPD mother means nothing. Even a flat out  "no" results in her pushing a boundary sometimes.

I have found that with BPD- the choice needs to be made and the boundary needs to be firm. From my mother's perspective, one is either on her side or not her side. The choice is black and white thinking. To me (and to you)- one should not have to choose. One can care for a spouse, and a parent, and a friend. It doesn't subtract. It is possible you and his mother don't think about this the same way.

An emotionally healthy mother wants their child to be happily married. Yes, in this situation, I want to also be a part of my children's lives at that point, but I would also not demand so much of them that it takes away from their marriage. That is because an emotionally healthy parent respects boundaries. A BPD parent probably won't.

Your MIL, ( like my mother probably) is so overwhelmed by her own needs, she only sees these needs that have to be filled somehow. How it affects your H probably isn't first on her mind. When my father was ill, I left my own family to help out some, but I could not be there all the times she wanted me to- because I also had my own family to take care of. To her though, I disappointed them. I could have neglected my own family to be there more- but I don't think she'd see that I did that.

He won't tell her flat no, either.

I didn't want to have to do this. I dreaded it. I was so stressed over knowing I had to say it. But the alternative, thinking she'd actually move near me was more stressful. Having boundaries with my mother is extremely hard. I have a recording of it- the meeting was recorded. You could hear my voice trembling. Then, BPD mother got angry at me. I got all flustered. I didn't want to have to choose. I wish I could be able to be of help to my mother and also maintain my own boundaries- but it doesn't work with her. I tried the change the subject thing but she kept bringing it up and became more insistent. I had to say no.

I do think it's important to set your boundary- absolute "no" to her moving near you to your H. He may go ahead and make you the bad guy in this triangle with BPD mom. That would go along with the Karpan triangle. This was the way things worked in my family. Once I said no, I took responsibility for that. But in my family it would be - from my father "mother says no" or my mother" your father says no"- pass the blame on so you don't look like the bad guy.

Someone's likely to end up as the "bad guy" in BPD MIL's world and it may be you- but that is the cost of saying no- however that's less of a cost than saying "yes" when you mean it to remain the good guy.

Whatever goes on between your H and his mother- what he says to her- is not something you can control. The bottom line for you, the boundary- is what you would do if your H brought her near to you without your agreement to it. I hope that doesn't happen, but if it did, you would see what choice he made- choosing her wishes over yours.

The boundary for you is what would you do if that happened. I truly hope he doesn't do that, but when it comes to boundaries, all we can control is our response to when someone crosses it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Maybe he doesn't want to be the bad guy, maybe he cannot be the bad guy to his mother...

I am starting to see that my main emotion toward my mother is fear. I am terrorized by her. I just started seeing a therapist and he says it is normal based on my childhood with her, and we are just starting to work on transforming this fear and helping me not feel scared anymore.

The thing is, I cannot control this fear. It's little me...and I didn't even know how scared I was of her two weeks ago. It was very well hidden behind a calm demeanor that I perfected over the years to keep her 'happy". Saying no to her was always a challenge, and many times I "dumped" it on my husband, with his approval, of course. Otherwise, it was nearly impossible, gave me trouble breathing.

He said he doesn't care to be the bad guy to her, and so, he told me to blame it on him if it could help me. And I did sometimes. It helped.

Maybe I should be able to deal with it myself, maybe I should carry my own weight...but then, I help him too. I send cards to his mother that he signs, I help him better manage his own relationships with his parents. We are a team. And in the end, what matters is not if I was able to say no by myself, but that I was able to say no, and any means to get me there is fine by him, even if I 'blame it on him" because in the end it is for us... When I struggle, he carries me and when he struggles, I carry him. In the end, it brings us further, closer together.

To be clear, though, I don't insult him in his back ever... It's mostly like : ho that would be great but he doesn't want to, and as his wife, I need to stand by him. ... This way she can't lose it at me... She gets frustrated at him, but he is out of reach and he doesn't give a damn... It wouldn't work for everyone and every situation though...

Any way you being the bad guy could help him say no? Is it truly guilt or little him still scared of his mother? I know daughters and sons are different to a BPD mother, just brainstorming here I guess... Maybe you already tried that as well, so disregard whatever don't suit your situation...

[Notwendy]

Riv3rW0lf makes an important point here. Fear is the main emotion we kids feel towards our BPD mother. We are terrified of her, actually.

Looking at your husband, this may not make much logical sense to you. It isn't logical. Your H may be twice her size now. My mother is a tiny elderly lady. She can't hurt us. MIL doesn't have to have been physically abusive either.

Doesn't matter. I think this is so instinctual - and the fear began when we were very small and our parents towered over us. A raging, inconsistent parent is scary to a kid. Fear was how she controlled us as well. If we didn't obey her, if we triggered her, the response was scary.

I didn't stand up to her or have boundaries with her until I felt I had to. As my children got older, she began to enlist them as her emotional caretakers. I also feared she's triangulate them against me. If it was anything that would make me overcome the fear of being the "bad guy" it was because the fear of her enlisting my children was greater.

The consequences of saying "no" to her are significant. They are something to fear. If she knows I am emotionally invested in something she controls - this is what she goes for. When I was a child, it might be my favorite toy. She would confiscate it until I complied. She did that with my father as well. My father had several hobbies, and if he left something out that he was invested in- and she was angry at him- she'd destroy it.

But in addition to items, she interferes with relationships.

And as you can imagine, I was scared of telling her I didn't want her to move near me and her reaction was predictable. And I felt as if I was a scared little kid the whole time.

[pursuingJoy]

Thank you for your insight and for sharing your experiences. It is helpful to get a window into H's perspective. I don't always understand it, but I learn every time you share and I feel empathy for you, and for him. I earn respect for those of you here who have faced the scary truth about your parents. Wow. Not everyone can do that and I admire you. H was absolutely the golden child and bears the weight that comes with that, and maybe that's why it's hard for him to face it.

ff, agree, I think I've said what I needed to for now. I also agree with NW, I think I need to really clarify the gravity.

RW and NW, I think fear plays a big role. I've seen her reduce him to a fearful, silent child. He seemed at a loss when the moment passed.

The way he regards himself is very important to him. He has to be able to respect himself. For sure, we all do. Taking care of her was pounded into him at a young age and she reinforces it at every turn. That's a good value, it's just that for him, it comes at the cost of losing oneself and any meaningful connection to others he loves. That's a price no one should pay. I get the sense that being honest about who she is would have him questioning all he thinks is good in life, and he believes that's too much of a risk?

I don't know why this makes me laugh, but MIL weaponizes her will. Never met anyone who did that. If a grandkid displeases her, she cuts them out. I was cut out in 2019.

We are a team. And in the end, what matters is not if I was able to say no by myself, but that I was able to say no, and any means to get me there is fine by him, even if I 'blame it on him" because in the end it is for us...

I love this, RW. We talk a lot about operating as a team in counseling. In most other parts of life he's a great teammate and so am I. We both get what it means to pick each other up, carry an extra load now and again.

Don't mind being the bad guy at all. I've been the bad guy to his entire family since 2019 when I clarified she wouldn't be moving in with us. I'm shunned and they avoid me at family gatherings. It's not the worst thing. I've been the bad guy in my own family and I survived.

I no longer care what MIL and fam believe. I don't care if they like me. I do care what H believes. H believed I was the problem for almost 3 years. It took a lot of energy and mindfulness to learn boundaries and reflect his blame. He doesn't actively blame me anymore but I guess I'm always afraid we'll end up there because he's not brave enough to be honest.

If H were to say, "Babe, mom is a lot and I just can't fight her. I need your help. Do you mind if I put this one on you?" I'd drop what I was doing and lay down as a happy and willing sacrifice

I wonder how he'd respond if I told him that? That he has that option?

 

[formflier]

ff, agree, I think I've said what I needed to for now. I also agree with NW, I think I need to really clarify the gravity.

Yep...good job on this.

I would suggest that more importantly, you have "found your voice".  You have thought it through and had some "successful" conversations about it.

So...when things go sideways and H...out of nowhere tosses out an outlandish idea (is there any doubt this will happen...at some point), instead of "reacting" with shock and awe...you have your voice, state your position again and then shift to supporting/validating whatever extreme emotion is at play.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

In some ways, I think it's harder to stand up to a parent if one is the golden child. The GC has more of a "good times" connection to the parent, being the favored child. This was apparent to me even as a young child. My mother clearly favored the GC.

Although she still favors the GC, she also treats the GC worse than she does me when we are together. She knows I won't tolerate it, but also the GC does tolerate it more and is afraid to upset her. When the relationship isn't good in the first place, there's less fear of losing the special status and probably more obligation on the part of the GC due to having been the favored child. The GC in my family is more enmeshed, but recently has been standing up to her more. On the other hand, being the non favored child, I tried harder to gain approval from my parents.

The will has not even been a consideration.  She has written us in, and out, and back again. We don't think about it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The way he regards himself is very important to him. He has to be able to respect himself. For sure, we all do. Taking care of her was pounded into him at a young age and she reinforces it at every turn. That's a good value, it's just that for him, it comes at the cost of losing oneself and any meaningful connection to others he loves. That's a price no one should pay. I get the sense that being honest about who she is would have him questioning all he thinks is good in life, and he believes that's too much of a risk?

Speaking from my own experience here, and I think all our experiences are different...

I just opened Pandora's box, started therapy, albeit I have no idea if this guy can even help. I brought myself very far in life, I believed I had it all figured out. And in November, as I spent extended time at my mother's place, it reopened trauma.

I've been working on finding myself again since November... And I can't. I lost myself. Which is probably a good thing...

Because the realization of what my mother actually was, what she actually did, came with the need to take a hard long look at myself, at my past. And it forced me to see that everything I had built was built on fear, on inner critic work, on pain and suffering. I was completely empty and I was so used in feeling empty that I hadn't even realized it.

I dissociated so much, I can say I am happy but I don't feel it. And I am working in regaining that part of me that died when I was 9.

And so yes, it is risky to recognize the past for what it is.

It comes at a price, but one he must one day be willing to pay in order to truly find himself...  And free himself.

For now, he is so very lucky to have a wife like you, who cares.

I cannot stress enough how life saving meeting my husband was for me. He is the reason I got up in the first place, and the only reason I became strong enough to take this leap.

Do not underestimate your role for him.. it saddens me immensely to read he thought of you as the bad guy for three years, and it must have taken a lot of love and care to stay and work it through with him, it is a tribute to your love and compassion. I do hope he finds the courage to see the truth for what it is at some point...

[Woolspinner2000]

Riv3rW0lf shares some deep thoughts here:

And so yes, it is risky to recognize the past for what it is.

It comes at a price, but one he must one day be willing to pay in order to truly find himself...  And free himself.

It is a tough journey but we'll worth the effort. Not everyone chooses to take it. My brother who is 3 years older, the first born, has not been able to take the first step. He lives in addiction every day of his life and wishes to be free. I have gently encouraged him to get help, knowing that AA will help with his alcohlism and teach him about many other things. I felt the deeper calling to heal from my childhood and needed to in order to survive and thrive. I wish my brother would, but we both know enough about controlling people to understand that he gets to make his own choices, and I will love him and walk alongside him, but I will not rescue him from his choices either.

Even though our uBPDm passed away nearly 10 years ago, he cannot bear to have mom's ashes leave his house. He feels closer to her that way. I, on the other hand, don't want any of them. Her hold on us was too strong and demanding.

So I guess I'm just popping in to say that it's worth the effort to heal, but not all choose to go there. PJ, I'm really glad that you see you have value, separate from DH, and that you're also doing your best to understand him and be there while maintaining boundaries.

 
Wools

[pursuingJoy]

NW, you talked about the GC fearing the loss of favored status, and that rings true.

H has said friends, family and even his brother believed H was treated better than his brother, who I'll call M.  H insists it wasn't true, that he and M were treated exactly the same. Some time before he committed suicide,  M went to their aunt and vented to her about the mistreatment. After the suicide, aunt confronted MIL and accused her of mistreatment that led to M's suicide. MIL cut off the aunt and H will never speak to his deceased dad's only sibling because of this.

I wonder if H denies any difference in treatment so vehemently because he can't handle feeling responsible for his brother's suicide, even though none of this is his fault.

RW thanks for sharing what your husband means to you. H can't express any gratitude for my support so I'll appreciate yours for your husband. It's beautiful.

Agree with you, Wools and RW, that facing it opens pandora's box. An unrelated poster here once said that we shouldn't force anyone to face something they're not willing and ready to face, because we could do more harm than good. I was trying to control the situation, and him, and I tried to get him to face something he wasn't emotionally prepared for. Live and learn.

[Notwendy]

Oh wow PJ, that is some serious trauma for your H.

Of course he has no responsibility for that. But children of pwBPD were groomed to feel responsible for their BPD mother's feelings. Also, he lost a sibling and that is significant trauma- but I am willing to bet his parents did not offer the kind of comfort and support, and consolation he needed.

Although I was an adult when my father died, the focus was on BPD mother. Yet, I had lost a father and was grieving. If I said something like "I'm sad, I lost a father" her reply was "well I lost a husband"- literally no mention that he had any relationship to me. It was only about her.

My parents generally didn't express much empathy for their children. My father did sometimes but there is none from my mother. I suspect that you H didn't get much either and what a horrific loss for him.