Separation Plan

[Hope4Joy]

Things have been on a downward spiral the last 6 months. I actually posted on the conflicted board once. There was another event the other night and I left the next morning with our son to my parents in another town. I informed uBPDh’s mother as I was concerned about him being alone due to Suicide threats. uBPDh’s dad reached out to him and had a long loving talk before informing him that I had left. They talked about uBPDh moving into their garage apartment however I feel more comfortable with me and our son moving in - and everyone is ok with that. My concern: they live basically around the corner from our house, so what boundaries do I need? He actually kind of avoids his parents and I really think he is seeing the light that he is going to have to live by some new rules so I think it’s going to be ok, but what are the rules? I do think I would offer that he should come and have dinner with everyone every night. That would be good for his relationship with everyone.

I spoke with a counselor today to make sure I wasn’t making a horrible choice to go back to be nearer to uBPDh, to help with my responsibilities there, and our son can go to his school. The counselor felt like we could go to a marriage therapist and they would be able to help us identify if one or both of us needs individual help prior to working back together. I had been stressing that uBPDh needed help but the counselor suggested this takes the demand off me. Definitely want to know thoughts from here.

What are the best things for kids in this situation? He is about  to turn 5 but can grasp concepts of a much older child, just with the maturity matching his age . I am planning to tell him that since mom and dad keep arguing (which he is pretty well aware of) we need a time out. What else might he need?

Thank you.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

At first blush, hubby moving to parents and you moving back in home so your child can have the most familiar surroundings possible...is the plan I gravitate towards.

I'm curious to hear more about your desire to move in with his parents and then have him over regularly.

Great job thinking of your child and "his school" and all that. 

Best,

FF

[healthfreedom4s]

I am in a similar situation, having established a two home setup a few months back. Kids spend time between my uBPDw (at home) and me (at apt).
To answer your primary question - your son is 5 years. And your message of 'time out' sounds appropriate. You can let him lead on it further - just answer any questions he has (without feeling the need to explain the whole thing). He will see you as patient, problem-solving and resilient. I think your focus can be on other aspects.
From this post on 'Bettering' area (I have not read your other posts) - I think you want to improve on the situation/relationship and not looking at divorce as the solution at this time.
Your engagement with his parents - will likely help him and consequently all of you. At the least, you are building allies in his parents. It will help your son too as he will get the same message of the issue from most people in his life.
Your idea of having him for dinner is good (provided, there are boundaries). I eat dinner at home when kids are with my uBPDw (the other way, compared to your situation).
Here are few aspects/boundaries that I could think of:
- Being around: You can establish a regimen like 'he spends time in the garage apt only during dinner and certain time during weekend' - and you would go with your son to his place for few hours during weekend. Lack of boundaries on he 'being around' will start negating this whole setup [From my experience with two home setup - here is what I gained most. Me not needing to manage her emotions 24x7, which freed me up to take care of myself and start focusing on kids].
- Your communication: I found 'Don't JADE' and 'BIFF' tools to be valuable. This will avoid the arguments. You can establish new ways/rules of communication in your relationship.   
- Finance: How would the financial arrangements be? Would you continue as before? Or do you see him making changes on this front?
- Intimacy: If he becomes reasonably stable, will you consider resuming this part of the relationship - like he spending weekend nights in the garage apt OR the other way?
- Going back: You may want start to thinking of conditions/prerequisites for you to return home. I know it is too soon, but you may not want to be caught off-guard. It could be as simple as 'I want to continue this for an year and take stock of the situation at that point'.

[Hope4Joy]

I just really don’t want to go to my home. Husband has asked again about him going to the garage apartment instead. Maybe it’s worth considering more.

To go back I need him to be evaluated by a professional and some kind of explanation from him about tools he has learned to not fly off the handle. I don’t expect perfection, but he at least needs to be able to catch his mistakes and take a break and try again later. I would not expect much intimacy before I go back…idk
For now finances can remain as is I think.

[formflier]

Assuming your hubby isn't there...so you and kids can have peace.

Can you share more about your desire..or lack thereof to go home?

Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

Well I guess the important complication to mention is we run a  business at home and he has to be there more than me. I can bring my laptop to the garage apartment. I spoke with his parents today and they agree I should not go home.

[formflier]

Yeah..that's a complication.

How has all of this affected the business?  Can he move it to his parents?

Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

He has a desktop computer with all the monitors and shop full of tools at home. Harder for him to move. And I really don’t want to go home. He would have to be there more than I want. If I need to be there a few hours during the business day where I can control leaving that’s better.

We have another partner in the business who is privy to most of what’s going on and he is certainly concerned about his livelihood too. Should the business split uBPDh may not be able to make it on his own and have to find a job for the first time in several years. Myself as well obviously.

This whole ordeal is something I have been trying to avoid by asking for professional help for years. Hubby has refused. I have educated myself the best I can, but admittedly have not made huge changes for what hubby is looking for. But we all know that is not an excuse for his behavior.

[Hope4Joy]

Should I plan that we can still hang out in friend groups together at this time?

[formflier]

Should I plan that we can still hang out in friend groups together at this time?

No.

It sounds like what you guys need is  a "therapeutic separation".  Basically a counselor would guide both of you through this process and help guide you to a place of "should be come back together" or "are we better apart".

If your hubby is resistant to "professional guidance"...please take that into account for the future...we speak through our word AND ALSO our actions.

So..it would seem like if the business was not there, hubby was not there and would not need to visit...that you still don't want to go home?  Is that the vibe I should be getting from you?  Please nudge me in the right direction and whatever insight into this you can share...the better.

There is nothing wrong with staying with "his people", it's just unusual.  So when people make unusual choices..there is usually a story behind that and the stories we have lived so far affect the ones we choose to write for the future.

So..no criticism (or approval)...just saying that any reflections on these choices you can share would be helpful.

Last:  Back to an important question.  In 6 months I want our relatoinship to look like (fill in the blank)




Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

Thank you for being so responsive. I’m wanting to go back to the area because I feel guilty about abandoning my responsibilities there, it’s gets my kid back to school and is the only hope for trying to work on the relationship. The garage apartment is the easiest place to go and I am comfortable with it. We lived there while building around the corner.

I have thought ahead some to a timeline where my son starts kindergarten. If it does not look like the relationship is salvageable I would probably look to spend a year at my parents in another town while figuring out what my new life would look like and where I would would choose for him and I to live (probably somewhere between our home and my family). I do not expect there would be a custody battle. Finance battle probably.

Is there any reason that I should not let our son have a sleepover with dad in the near term based on his suicidal threats?

[formflier]

Is there any reason that I should not let our son have a sleepover with dad in the near term based on his suicidal threats?

Didn't you just answer your own question? 

Listen...there are a few things that I am absolutely certain about.  Suicide threats are "medical professional level".  I'm not one of those and it doesn't sound like you are.

Let a psychiatrist evaluate and let you know about safety with a minor child.

The next time you ever hear even a hint of this...call 911..call any authority you can think of..."turn the lights on".  Let professionals work through it.


Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

I would hate to get authorities involved. I do understand it may be necessary one day under circumstances, but I hope this separation and our plan to reach out for help will prevent that ever being necessary. The counselor did mention about authorities also.

There was a day I tried calling 911 about his self harm threat and he fought the phone away from me. That is definitely something we should discuss with a professional. Thank you.

[formflier]

I would hate to get authorities involved. 

What if you don't get authorities involved (turn ALL the lights on to show his choice of behavior)...and he is successful?

What training do you have to determine whether or not he is serious about his threats?

Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

I understand your point.

I just got off the phone with him - well I had to hang up because I had tried to get off the phone twice before but he kept telling me how bad this was for him….not feeling super hopeful about this working out right now. Still going to give professional help a try.

[formflier]

Does that "point" sway your decision about EXACTLY what you will do the next time you hear even the "hint" of a suicidal idea?

How often do you "have to" talk to him on the phone.  Are you normally able to keep the topic on point or does he "always" get over to a "poor me" story?

Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

Well I guess I’m pretty stubborn. Thank you for pushing the point. I’m going to talk with his parents about a plan.

Communication in general is still frequent at this point for purposes of work and our child. We had a call about our relationship Saturday that was fairly productive, but last nights was not. I really only did a call to make sure we were on the same page about how to tell our child. It’s only been a few days and we haven’t gotten to professional help yet, so I know he has only breached the point of knowing he PLEASE READed up and not yet understanding how his behavior affects me. I am trying to put more of the relationship side of things into email format. I already figured out texting is not great for that either.

Do I inform our sons pre-K teacher about the separation? We are planning to tell our son this evening and he goes back to school in the morning.

Any tips on how to get a really good cry out of yourself?

[kells76]

Do I inform our sons pre-K teacher about the separation? We are planning to tell our son this evening and he goes back to school in the morning.

Stopping in here from the Conflicted/Family Law board. Seems wise to give the teacher a heads up -- if it were me, I'd be leaning towards framing it as "I" statements versus "we" statements, and having the email come from just you (versus cc'ing your son's dad on it). He gets to interact with the teachers on his own and figure out how much or little he wants to tell them, and he may get reactive/argumentative if cc'ed on an email about "what's going on in his life" even if it's going on in your life too.

So maybe consider saying something like "Hi Teacher; Just a heads up that I'm changing living arrangements and won't be living with Son's Dad any longer, so if Son seems to be having a hard time in class tomorrow or in the coming weeks, that's likely what's going on for him. Please don't hesitate to reach out to me if you have any questions or concerns. Thanks in advance for caring about Son; H4J"

That gives the teacher background info without "telling ex's story". It also shows you are only talking about what you have chosen and have control over (versus being a parent who blames the other, badmouths, etc), and you are keeping the focus on what's good for your kid, no matter what the adults are doing.

Hope those ideas help... so sorry you are going through this.

[formflier]

Yes...teachers and other important people in your child's life should know.

Best,

FF

[Hope4Joy]

If we decide to do some play therapy for our son, how do we explain that? We told him that we were planning to see a counselor, which is like a teacher to help us get along. But I don’t want him to think he has done anything wrong. I have already seen some struggling behavior. It started before we left the house so it’s hard to say if it’s normal kid stuff or if it’s related to the household environment.

I’m looking at Better Help for myself to be able to have a support for myself. I have been a little overwhelmed already with some love bombing and him asking for more togetherness than I am ready for. Anyone have a good experience with Better Help or have another suggestion?

Hoping to get our first in person couples session scheduled soon.

I sent him Moodgym info that I saw here to supplement and maybe make in person sessions more efficient. Will see if he bites.

[Hope4Joy]

We met with the marriage counselor Monday and have a second session this upcoming Tuesday. I arrived a few minutes before my husband and the counselor invited me back to get started early. I was able to tell him that I thought my husband should tell his version of why we are there. He arrived and stated that he “runs at the mouth”. He stated that he believes it has some to do with his childhood, mostly his dad being at work all the time (which is something he had just been expressing to his parents over the previous weekend for possibly the first time. He ended up reaching out to his mom since he was upset that we were not spending time together one evening. I thought it was great that he reached out to them). He talked about being lonely in childhood and now.

With my husband present I told the counselor that I needed to know he had learned some tools before going back home. The counselor gave him a handout on emotional validation that he had nearby to review at home. He also suggested that we go on a date, and told my husband that it basically doesn’t count if I have to plan and arrange childcare.

I read the handout on emotional validation this week. It mentions BPD in the second paragraph. It later mentions DBT for help with self validation. I don’t think husband has read it yet…he will probably gloss right over BPD. I am interested if he recognizes his need to self validate. I plan to suggest Tuesday that we both can validate one another and that he may need help with self validation as well.

I asked him what he thought of the session in general and he said he felt supported even though everyone in the room knew we were there because of his poor behavior. He asked what I thought about a date and I said I was a little uncomfortable with it but maybe something like bowling would be appropriate. I haven’t heard any more about that.

We have talked some this week about how he plans to manage his anger and he has listed some ideas about exercise and calling a friend for support, taking a break, etc.
I am planning to ask more about how he plans to communicate in the future. Specific tools.

I am working along side him in our home. We are having dinner with his parents in our home most nights. I’m getting more comfortable there. He is asking me to come back and we can make whatever sleeping arrangement I want. Emotionally I still can’t really imagine sleeping in our room with or without him. Logically it makes even less sense after just one counseling session. I have reached out to two counselors in a nearby town for my own support in making my own decisions. I have not heard back from either…I also feel like I need my own counselor to discuss the marriage sessions with. Like how long do I wait for my husband to feel comfortable enough to tell the rest of the story vs bringing the big issues up myself or calling it off and moving on with my life. I think I’m writing this because I haven’t gotten to discuss with my own counselor….

I am hopeful for what the marriage counselor will bring up in the next session now that he has some idea of our pasts and hurts in marriage.

I’ll take any comments or questions…

[formflier]

Go steady and slow.  You will have counseling sessions where you believe his is "fixed" and others where he is "worse than ever".

Expect that and don't get sidetracked.  Months from now I hope you can look back and see the general trajectory things are going, even though there may be some wild swings in there.

Rushing...not good.  Let time be your friend.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Pay attention to behavior, not promises. Talk is cheap.

Agree with formflier. Take things very slowly.

Marriage counseling has a different objective than individual counseling: getting couples back together rather than exploring an individual’s decision whether the relationship is something to continue.

[Hope4Joy]

In our second session the counselor stated that he wanted to work on us as individuals and have us an inner child questionnaire. We are both messed up in totally different ways, of course. We have homework to create positive affirmations for ourselves and say them everyday. Still nothing has come up about the actual events that transpired to make me leave. I think that’s still ok for for now. Is this on par with, better, or worse than what others have experience with marriage counseling?

I spoke with my husband about how how he has always pushed for what he wants until I cave, citing examples from our first 6 months dating which was 16 years ago. He is pushing for me to come home and I was then able to explain that he was doing it again and I have to be able to make my own decision.

I have a session lined up for myself on Friday.

[kells76]

Still nothing has come up about the actual events that transpired to make me leave. I think that’s still ok for for now. Is this on par with, better, or worse than what others have experience with marriage counseling?

That comes across to me as normal and par for the course. The counselor may be in the process of building trust and getting "buy in" from "both of you" -- that is, doing the same things for both of you, and at the same time perhaps already knowing that one of you is more committed to counseling than the other. It's the lower-trust participant that needs more trust-building in order to stay in counseling and actually be compliant with instructions. Low trust clients won't do what's suggested/required if they don't feel like they trust the counselor and aren't "ganged up on".

So the "inner child questionnaire" for both of you is a way of the counselor not only getting valuable background information, but also publicly "treating you two equally" which will help your H to not feel like "it's you and the counselor against him". Getting reluctant clients to stay committed is a longer process than getting motivated clients to stay.

I spoke with my husband about how how he has always pushed for what he wants until I cave, citing examples from our first 6 months dating which was 16 years ago. He is pushing for me to come home and I was then able to explain that he was doing it again and I have to be able to make my own decision.

This sounds like an important topic to talk about at your Friday session.

It's such a balance between finally saying exactly what you think -- letting go, not trying to keep the peace, having a voice -- and then doing/saying things that are "less effective" for long term goals. I think your MC will be a good resource for you to talk through that balance -- how can you be assertive and say what's important for you to say, and also not undermine your long term goal (that is to say -- you are in marriage counseling, so my assumption is that you would like to stay married and have things be "less worse").

Anyway, if it were me, I wouldn't be too worried that in MC "we aren't talking about what happened" yet. This seems like a really normal pace for the process, and again, in your Friday session, if you feel concerned or curious about the pace, definitely bring that up.