Shutting down the overanalysing

[Riv3rW0lf]

 

I figured I might as well write it out here, since my brain seems completely incapable of shutting down it's overanalysis system.

Had brunch this morning with the in-laws, both FIL and MIl came, along with H's brother and his girlfriend.

Girlfriend is great, BIL was cool as a cucumber. I see them once or twice a year, nice talks, all good.

I've stopped going to MIL and FIL on my own. Stopped going in October because MIL was being more and more critical and looking to take more and more place with her grandchildren, which included emotionnal clingyness and judging my parenting, projecting awkward stuff on me. I decided H could handle his parents himself. And it felt great.

Now saw them at Christmas and this morning, and suddenly FIL is over the top nice with me, and MIL is also trying to be on her best behavior.

There are still the odds comments and questions, but it's like...it felt, this morning, like she was trying to "give me back the power", trying to show respect and get me to lower my guard.. And it felt so very dysfunctional... Her underlying assumptions and projections were SO clear too. And I picked up on a few things indicating she had said things about us to SIL that weren't true, namely that she couldn't bring her pet pig in, which I truly don't mind.

She asked about my father's gift (I had an issue with hers, and it will get here late and she was clearly implying something about my family that I didn't get and chose to ignore, the reason I know that is FIL looked at her to make her stop talking). She kept asking about our diner with my father, and it felt intrusive.

Later on, she cornered me and stated : "so YOU want us to take the children next Tuesday" and I replied : " Nope, that would be H, you can deal with him about that." And she said :"you need to tell me what I can give them to drink! I need to know!" and it was so very apparent, the coming back on the sugar issue I have been trying to step away from, and that she keeps using like some kind of games with me, to either show me respect or disrespect depending on how she feels. So I replied :"You can ask your son about it." And I started listening to FIL's story like everyone else.

It's now apparent MIL has very dysfunctional thinking. And I've done a great job of staying out of it.Truly. it was a nice morning. And I was detached enough that not only did I witness the dysfunctions, but also how fleeting it is. Just thoughts and random sentences full of projections that come and goes. And I can choose to NOT stay there,and to ignore them if I want.

I did a good job of ignoring them this morning...

So how come am I still is overanalysis mode? This is getting ridiculous. I don't want to understand her. But my brain keeps bringing me back there. and THIS is what I want to stop. THIS is what is unhealthy : the overanalysing everything, even things I wasn't even emotionally triggered by.

Any tricks to manage this obsessive compulsive overanalysing of all social interactions?

[seekingpeace2day]

Great question! This is a lifelong challenge for me also.

What has helped:
1. Allow space to journal/analyze
2. Meditate to calm brain (I'm only 2 weeks in to most recent effort)
3. Live in body, be physical
4. Recognize when overanalyzing and... [I'm also in need of suggestions]

[Riv3rW0lf]

Great question! This is a lifelong challenge for me also.

What has helped:
1. Allow space to journal/analyze
2. Meditate to calm brain (I'm only 2 weeks in to most recent effort)
3. Live in body, be physical
4. Recognize when overanalyzing and... [I'm also in need of suggestions]

Maybe the meditation is what I am missing...

I also wonder if this overanalyzing is who I am... Or if it is a result of dissociation?

Compared to most people (and I think a lot of people here are like me on this), I find it very easy to put myself in observation mode... and observe myself and people. I pick up on very small details that most people won't notice, and I observe myself reacting, then I overanalyze the small things to understand and review... Like I imagine most generals do after a battle! I don't dissociate to the point of the disorder, but I am definitely on the spectrum for dissociative issues... It was once very intense, but really decreased in intensity when I started weight lifting and running a lot. And so I wonder if the overanalyzing is not some kind of leftovers of this once very intense dissociative tendency...

Does this resonate with you, seekingpeace2day? The dissociation tendencies?

Most of what I read online about dissociation states it can only be managed, not healed. So do we just have to accept it as part of who we are? That all interactions will necessitate 10hours of reviewing, even if everything went great?

[seekingpeace2day]

RW,

Im also highly analytical and “intellectualized,” so I can definitely relate.

That said, I dont think that intellectualizing and disassociating are the same thing. For me, intellectualizing has been a way to
manage anxiety and social awkwardness, and perhaps to seek social safety by not misreading cues. (Where do you think I might have learned that one?? Lol.)

To me, disassociating is a much more severe “checking out” response, where I’m not even in the same space mentally.

Especially if anxiety might underlie your intellectualizing, I highly recommend meditation. Ive had fits and starts in the past and recently began with a new app (excellent, highly recommended) and can already tell my brain is calmer and less ruminative after meditating. I generally avoid making recommendations, but if youd like to know the app just let me know.

Might anxiety be a factor for you?

Finally, one other thought thats been helping in the past week, during my recovery relapse/cold/time largely in bed: seek the answers INSIDE, rather than outside. By that I mean, for me intellectualizing/analyzing has to do with seeking information, answers, thoughts, including from others. During the past few days, I skimmed 20 journals covering 25 years, seeking information regarding FOO. What I realized, sadly and gladly, was that Ive known most answers and most facts for 20+ years.  This is sad because Ive been stuck in so many ways, and it’s really hard to accept and change and act. This is glad because I am hopeful that I can refer to these insights more, and over analyze less, in 2023 and forever. Meditating is similar in a way - we listen to inside sources. Let me know if this makes sense or not!

[Mommydoc]

Hi Riv3rWOlf.  The problem with the holiday season is too much obligatory time with people you might not choose to normally be around.  Hopefully with the new year you can distance yourself soon. It sounds like you did a great job by the way!   

I am not sure I disassociate but I definitely over think and perseverate on things. It’s a coping mechanism and sometimes it’s a way of processing for me… but like you, I often want to shut it off.  I know when it is too much. 

Like seekingpeace2day, I find both journaling and meditation very helpful, it’s a way to both process and let go of it for me.  I am going through some very tough stuff over the last 3 weeks (not ready to post about it as it is very painful, but hopefully will be able to soon) and I couldn’t switch my brain off with all my usual tricks. I tried a “ walking meditation” and a visualization.  In guided meditations you are often advised to observe your thoughts and then let them go ( into the clouds, down a river, float away, etc). It’s a bit abstract. On my walking meditation, I was walking down a really beautiful wooded path that is in between a divided road.  I decided to assign my thoughts to a (real) passing car, and to watch the car disappear into the horizon.   As soon as that red car assigned to X thought disappeared, I let the thought go!   Next thought got assigned to another car.  It was absolutely delightful, by the end of the walk, I had gotten exercise, had time in nature, and blissfully let go of a lot of thoughts that I previously couldn’t shake. 

Exercise, prayer,  meditation, and journaling are my go to options and none of them work all the time, so sometimes I have to cycle through them. ( and posting here of course!)  Wishing you a happy New Year!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Seekingpeace2day

Thank you for your answer, I'd sure be interested in knowing the app's name.

I see your point with intellectualisation as a way to manage anxiety and social awkwardness, and in seeking safety by not misreading cues. The reason I brought up disassociation is that this intellectualisation of all social interactions, this overanalyzing seems to have a soothing effect by distancing me of what happened.

I just read a question on another forum for depersonalization disorder and it really struck me how I could relate to how the OP described it...

It's as if, as the interaction with someone happens, I am spending more time analysing them and myself than actually living the interaction, which can prevent noticing my stress level and gut feelings.

Then, when everything ends, I review what I picked up during this analysis, and I make sense out of it. I put words on the feelings I was disconnected from during the interaction.

It doesn't always happen, some situation and people trigger that more than others... Having my in-laws for brunch is definitely an anxiety trigger...

So it does feel like more than intellectualisation... It's as if the way I experiment life is a bit disconnected from the actual experience, but it just occured to me now that not everyone experiences life this way.

H told me, when I brought up details of interactions, how unimportant this all was. And I mentioned that picking up on those details is how I survived childhood, it's hard to just stop. But the element of distanciation via overanalysis of every situation, good or bad, is something I just realized...

It's as if overanalyzing is my way of understanding what happened socially... Like... On the moment, I am not completely sure of what is happening.

I am clearly overanalyzing myself now...

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi Riv3rWOlf.  The problem with the holiday season is too much obligatory time with people you might not choose to normally be around.  Hopefully with the new year you can distance yourself soon. It sounds like you did a great job by the way!  

I am not sure I disassociate but I definitely over think and perseverate on things. It’s a coping mechanism and sometimes it’s a way of processing for me… but like you, I often want to shut it off.  I know when it is too much.  

Like seekingpeace2day, I find both journaling and meditation very helpful, it’s a way to both process and let go of it for me.  I am going through some very tough stuff over the last 3 weeks (not ready to post about it as it is very painful, but hopefully will be able to soon) and I couldn’t switch my brain off with all my usual tricks. I tried a “ walking meditation” and a visualization.  In guided meditations you are often advised to observe your thoughts and then let them go ( into the clouds, down a river, float away, etc). It’s a bit abstract. On my walking meditation, I was walking down a really beautiful wooded path that is in between a divided road.  I decided to assign my thoughts to a (real) passing car, and to watch the car disappear into the horizon.   As soon as that red car assigned to X thought disappeared, I let the thought go!   Next thought got assigned to another car.  It was absolutely delightful, by the end of the walk, I had gotten exercise, had time in nature, and blissfully let go of a lot of thoughts that I previously couldn’t shake.  

Exercise, prayer,  meditation, and journaling are my go to options and none of them work all the time, so sometimes I have to cycle through them. ( and posting here of course!)  Wishing you a happy New Year!

Mommydoc,

I was strangely grateful to see you on the forum today. And still am, reading you right now. I am sorry to hear you've gone through painful times, and whenever you are ready to share, vent, process it, and if you want to do it here, we will be here for you.

As for the overanalysing, I see what you mean... Maybe I need to try harder when I find myself overanalyzing. Part of me can't help but wonder, and fear, that this is how all social interactions will always be...

I wasn't bothered by it... Until I realized, today, to what extent it actually goes. It's one thing to overanalyse an interaction that emotionally triggered me, it is another to overanalyze something that actually went well...

But maybe I am just tired, maybe I indulged a bit too much in alcohol and food too these past few days...  

Maybe I do have a bit of a depersonalization issue linked to anxiety triggers... It would stand to reason...

But maybe, even if I do, it doesn't really matter, because it doesn't truly keeps me from living and doing things...

Just writing it out actually helps.

Maybe I just need a good night sleep.

[seekingpeace2day]

Thank you for your answer, I'd sure be interested in knowing the app's name.

I just read a question on another forum for depersonalization disorder and it really struck me how I could relate to how the OP described it...

I am clearly overanalyzing myself now...

10% happier is the app. First week content is free forever; best $99 Ive spent. I have expertise in app development and behavior change - this is superb.

I respectfully caution against self-diagnosing a dissociative disorder! I hope  mindfulness helps. Please let me know what you think of the app.

Yes medium lends itself to over analysis for us all, but there is also so much sharing and growth and its OK and even healthy to seek support and normative feedback.

Full support to you.

[Couscous]

It sounds like you may dealing with the phenomenon known as projective identification. It’s too complicated for me to explain here, but this book explains the concept well: www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/brown2006.pdf

There are some YouTube videos that also explains the concept. 

I think with projective identification, prevention is worth a pound of cure, but perhaps you could try a grounding exercise to see if that will shift you out of the rumination.

If that doesn’t do the trick you could try to dialogue with your inner child about your MIL. One method is to write your questions with your dominant hand, and use your non-dominant hand to write the replies from your inner child.

[seekingpeace2day]

It sounds like you may dealing with the phenomenon known as projective identification.

Couscous, Thank you for posting - that is one of the best books on PDs that I have ever read. The link is missing chapter 10, though, so I’m going to track down a copy! (Not to hijack this thread, but reading “never confront” made me feel like I made a major mistake by boundary setting with my dad - that triggered his rage and near-disinheriting me. My terse email must have hurt him nearly immeasurably. Wish I’d posted here, first!)

[Couscous]

Couscous, Thank you for posting - that is one of the best books on PDs that I have ever read. The link is missing chapter 10, though, so I’m going to track down a copy! (Not to hijack this thread, but reading “never confront” made me feel like I made a major mistake by boundary setting with my dad - that triggered his rage and near-disinheriting me. My terse email must have hurt him nearly immeasurably. Wish I’d posted here, first!)

Good catch, I never noticed the missing chapter. Hope you can find a copy!

Edit: There’s also her other book, Children of the Self-Absorbed which I also recommend.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous,

Thank you very much for the recommendation. I read the part on projective identification and it makes much sense.

I had read on projective identification before, but this is the first time I read it so well described. With BPD mother, the projective identification is so very evident; she is in my face with it, and nothing she says make sense. With MIL, it is all very subtil and covert, so unless you are the one being projected on, I don't think others even pick up on it as it happens.

I thought everything had gone well, because I kept my boundaries in place with her, but it makes sense that I unwillingly took on her emotions, since this is exactly what I have been trained to do by my mother since birth. So even with boundaries in place, it seems I remain sensitive to carry other's emotions for them.

I realize I fear my own narcissism, which might be what keeps me from having healthy narcissism too to protect me from this kind of projections.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I respectfully caution against self-diagnosing a dissociative disorder! I hope  mindfulness helps.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. I was looking for what was wrong with me, why I was still ruminating a perfectly fine interaction where I was able to healthily uphold my boundaries. Projective identification makes a lot of sense. Even if I didn't take the full load of it, some of it might still have passed through. MIL definitely has covert narcissism traits, and interactions with her are always very confusing for me.

I don't think I have a disorder per say, but maybe traits that combine together to render me more vulnerable to those kind of people.

I am much better now than I was when I was in my twenties. I can definitely see that I met a lot for the criterias back then, but don't anymore. But knowing this is my "go to" defense mechanism, I thought learning more on it could clue me in on what I need to improve in myself to not remain the prime target for personnalities like MIL.

[Riv3rW0lf]

People who overpersonalize will find it very uncomfortable to interact with the destructive narcissist because this person’s projections will tap into their feelings and assumptions that the destructive narcissist’s feelings are their responsibility and they are not doing an adequate job of taking care of this person. The strong parental messages are reactivated, producing profound feelings of inadequacy, incompetence, and self-doubt. This cognitive distortion allows people to beat themselves up more than the person with a DNP does.

So... It seems the issue is that I actually overpersonalize MIL's behaviors and frustrations... Even when I don't react to them on the moment, and uphold my boundaries.

I continue to believe the overanalysing is an attempt to depersonalize the encounter, as a counter to the responsibility trigger, without having to feel the anxiety it brings up.

[Couscous]

Even therapists are not immune to projective identifications, so try not be too hard on yourself.

In her other book, Children of the Self-Absorbed, Nina Brown gives several strategies and exercises for protecting oneself from a DNP’s projective identifications, so perhaps some of those could prove helpful to you.

One thing I have noticed with my MIL is that she tries to get me alone, and it is whenever I talk to her alone (without my H) that things don’t end well for me. Maybe you could make a plan with your H that he not leave your side when you are with your in-laws and see if that helps? I am going to try this with my H next time we visit his parents.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous,

Thank you for reminding to be gentle with myself.

I still find it a bit unnerving that I am the only one left with this kind of trigger, while H doesn't even seem aware of the behaviors. That, or he is complete denial (he has been overeating A LOT since we moved here... I have tried to breach the subject but it's very... Triggering for him. So I decided to drop it completely and left him self regulate. He decided he had enough and is back into self care, but I can't help but wonder how this will pan out, this close to his parents).

[seekingpeace2day]

Couscous,

Thank you for reminding to be gentle with myself.

I still find it a bit unnerving that I am the only one left with this kind of trigger, while H doesn't even seem aware of the behaviors. That, or he is complete denial (he has been overeating A LOT since we moved here... I have tried to breach the subject but it's very... Triggering for him. So I decided to drop it completely and left him self regulate. He decided he had enough and is back into self care, but I can't help but wonder how this will pan out, this close to his parents).

Couscous, Great reminder for all to be gentle on ourselves.

RW, I’ve reflected a lot in projective identification in the past day, because this function is highly active with my father and FOO. I suspect that you feel the trigger so much more than your H because THE PROJECTION IS ON YOU. H can’t relate (or even understand) because he is not the recipient of the projection. This is exactly what happens in my FOO, and why I have been externally more traumatized than my mother or sister. (It’s important note that their traumatizing has perhaps been equal but covert, through loss of self.)

Does that fit with your situation?

I’m grateful to Couscous for raising this issue and will buy both of the books mentioned; protecting ourselves from this projection (*and developing our own healthy adult narcissism) has perhaps been the missing key for my own personal self-defense.

[Riv3rW0lf]

RW, I’ve reflected a lot in projective identification in the past day, because this function is highly active with my father and FOO. I suspect that you feel the trigger so much more than your H because THE PROJECTION IS ON YOU. H can’t relate (or even understand) because he is not the recipient of the projection. This is exactly what happens in my FOO, and why I have been externally more traumatized than my mother or sister. (It’s important note that their traumatizing has perhaps been equal but covert, through loss of self.)

Does that fit with your situation?

Well, it has to be it... It seems being the mother of their precious grandchildren truly made the whole relationship with both grandmothers completely toxic.

The whole concept is still very strange to me. My father brought me up, repeating one thing constantly : "your emotions, your triggers, are yours and yours only." He is very ego-centrist, but not abusive. He has trouble taking responsibility and owning his own projections under the guise that : "Even if I projected, YOU chose to accept it, so it is still on you." ... Writing that down I can see how terrible this actually sounds! Likely contributes to my taking responsibility for it all. Yet, he still kinda has a point.

Couscous,
Yes I already don't see MIL without H present. I don't go there by myself anymore, and I don't text, nor arrange anything with them. He deals with his parents. She cornered me during the breakfast while I was in the kitchen, and I sent her back to him and refused to enter the discussion. I offered her coffee, tea. I took care of her basic needs, and mostly tried to steer clear of discussing anything alone with her. Still, it seems that wasn't enough somehow. But then... I was overanalyzing, but I wasn't completely triggered... So maybe, it did help. Maybe it could have been that much worst if I had actually engaged with her.

There were a few instances where she took a comment personally, even though it wasn't directed at her AT ALL, it was a discussion with SIL. She frowned, and she was going to "fight me", started talking, all worked up, and SIL glanced at her, and kinda ignored her (likely assumed it wasn't related to our discussion) and said she agreed with me and built up on the subject; So MIL actually left the table... Somehow : no one else, but me, noticed she was pissed.

Then, I offered her a tea, and when I failed to show up with it (it wasn't done), she came to get it and offered one to SIL passive aggressively... to whom I was already pouring tea. Then later, cornered me in the kitchen to demand what to give to my children to drink when they would be at her house, since I, specifically, had requested they go there, and she "needed to know." To which I answered : "This was actually H's idea, so ask him."

It was all very small and subtle; there was a lot of passive-aggressiveness, covert aggression, and love bombing. It was all very confusing, like she actually didn't know how to handle me that morning... Now that I think of it, she was much more in my face, toward the end of the brunch, than she usually is, and she seemed to be emotionally triggered... While, in previous interactions, I was actually much more stressed, and she was scoffing and appeared calmer... So in hindsight... While I did end up overanalyzing everything, it's true that it was more intellectually, I didn't feel emotionally triggered, or at least not as much as I usually am...

So I wonder if this is not as good as it gets, for me, when confronted with this kind of personality. In the end, I don't think I took up as much of her emotions as usual... which might explain why she ended up more confrontative than usual with her weird questioning... She also went to "direct attack" by mentioning my father's gift (I actually found this one really off), but she knows I usually react to her talking about my father, because it often is not politely, and I always found it incredibly weird that she even does that... She truly was just looking for a reaction, and I don't think that, in the end, she got everything she was hoping for.

So maybe... I am on the right path with her. Boundaries. H handles it.

Seekingpeace2day,
I still find it MUCH easier to manage MIL than my own BPD mother... So, for your father, I reckon it must also be a very heavy weight to carry, and very hard to dismantle the projections and block them off, if only because of the biological ties and instinct to "attach". MIL is the mother of my husband, and I loose footing... but it is still much less a trigger than BPD mother, with whom I literally end up feeling like a scared to death 6 years old.