Where can I learn to be empathic?

[Bella2798]

Hi all.
I've recently realized I seem not that much of empathic as someone should be. I try to listen to my partner, ask him if he only wants support or solutions, trying to reply with my own words about his feelings/situation, but still he sometimes tell me he feels like he's talking to a robot these times so he prefers not talking to me about how he feels when he's suicidal and in a depressive episode.

I've also found out that I'm kind speechless these times. I don't really know what to say, or how to help him or make him feel better.

I want to be more empathic to him and make him talk to me because I've realized when I succeed in making him talk about his feelings, he feels less suicidal. I want to learn, so can you please give me some good resources about this?

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[outhere]

Hi Bella.  I have the same feelings!  2 things from 2 sides:

1) I asked my therapist what is meant by "validation", since this seems to be a key piece to the puzzle of what people with BPD are needing in times of crisis.  I'm still struggling to understand the concept myself but essentially it means to recognize the truth of the other person's experience without unquestionably agreeing with it.
 
2) It is not necessarily your responsibility to "make him feel better" and I'm sure you are doing an excellent job of supporting your partner in the best way that you can.  I've been reading the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist and it's absolutely blowing my mind - I feel like it holds the key to understanding myself as a "Caretaker".  It sounds like maybe you also fit the profile and would benefit from giving it a read.

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

[waverider]

Are you naturally a "Fixer" type of personality? Give you a clear problem and you go into a practical mindset set to fix it. Then move on. Unfortunately needy people are often drawn to Fixer/rescuer types, and vice versa. It is initially mutually validating. Unfortunately a fixer ultimately gets tired of this endless river of neediness. The fixing becomes shorter, more curt, less involved, which is ultimately invalidating to the needy person.

It is hard to be truly empathetic to a constantly needy person as you end feeling as though you are constantly dealing with repeated imaginary or embellished issues rather than real ones. Often the best you can do is fake empathy.

Not taking the words and facts presented literally helps, but rather the underlying emotions that are driving them.

One thing many pwBPD struggle with is analogies to describe their feelings and situations, instead they state them as facts. You obviously can see it as unlikely to be the facts so you see it as a lie rather than an expression of how they felt, so it is dismissed offhand with little empathy as you are responding to the facts expressed, not the feelings that should have been expressed as such.

[Bella2798]

Are you naturally a "Fixer" type of personality? Give you a clear problem and you go into a practical mindset set to fix it. Then move on. Unfortunately needy people are often drawn to Fixer/rescuer types, and vice versa. It is initially mutually validating. Unfortunately a fixer ultimately gets tired of this endless river of neediness. The fixing becomes shorter, more curt, less involved, which is ultimately invalidating to the needy person.

It is hard to be truly empathetic to a constantly needy person as you end feeling as though you are constantly dealing with repeated imaginary or embellished issues rather than real ones. Often the best you can do is fake empathy.

Not taking the words and facts presented literally helps, but rather the underlying emotions that are driving them.

One thing many pwBPD struggle with is analogies to describe their feelings and situations, instead they state them as facts. You obviously can see it as unlikely to be the facts so you see it as a lie rather than an expression of how they felt, so it is dismissed offhand with little empathy as you are responding to the facts expressed, not the feelings that should have been expressed as such.

Dear Waverider, thanks a lot for your answer. I exactly know what you say about the difficulty pwBPD have with expressing their feelings, and I can see it clearly through my boyfriend. And I'm a bit of a fixer person, but in this case I know nothing but therapy can help him.
The thing tht I'm struggling with right now is actually responding usefully and actively to my partner.
A similar situation happened an hour later and maybe it can be useful to share.
My partner shared with me that he is feeling very awful mentally and he doesn't think he can make it to the end of the month. In such cases, things like "I can see your pain/I'm here with you/ I do whatever is needed to help you go through this/I support you and believe in you" won't help. I'm looking to know what is the best response I can give to him? Because I don't know what else I can say. It's more of a lack of words I guess.

[Bella2798]

Hi Bella.  I have the same feelings!  2 things from 2 sides:

1) I asked my therapist what is meant by "validation", since this seems to be a key piece to the puzzle of what people with BPD are needing in times of crisis.  I'm still struggling to understand the concept myself but essentially it means to recognize the truth of the other person's experience without unquestionably agreeing with it.
 
2) It is not necessarily your responsibility to "make him feel better" and I'm sure you are doing an excellent job of supporting your partner in the best way that you can.  I've been reading the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist and it's absolutely blowing my mind - I feel like it holds the key to understanding myself as a "Caretaker".  It sounds like maybe you also fit the profile and would benefit from giving it a read.

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

Hi and thanks a lot for your answer and suggests!
I'm kind of a bit confused now...because I don't know if it's good to take up the caretaker role for my partner or not and I saw some stuff about how being a caretaker is here in this forum... But actually I think I need to take a look at this book you mentioned! I appreciate it a lot!

[outhere]

I've found with my pwBPD that when things are calm I can say something like "Dear, things cannot keep going on like this, we need something to change.  You obviously are struggling and I've read that therapy (specifically DBT) could be helpful to you.  Is this something you'd be willing to explore?  If so, how do you think we can get there?  If not, is there another approach you would like to take?".  Trying to come up with solutions in the heat of the moment is a fool's errand, don't bother, but I've found that she is very open to thinking of solutions once the dust has settled.  They want to feel better!

[SaltyDawg]

Bella,

   That is an awesome question.  Just by asking this question you are very sympathetic to your pwBPD.

   I am still learning to be more empathic; however, it requires neuroplasticity on your part to rewire the way you communicate with him.  The tools are contained on this site, and there are a lot of tools to learn.

   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0  has a list of skills and tools that you can use with your person with BPD.

   My number one suggestion is to not sound critical, and to let him know that you hear him [even if you don't agree with him].

   Since you mentioned that he feels suicidal, please if you are in the United States ring 988 if he is thinking about it, or 911 if he has the instrument(s) of death [pills, knife, gun, car keys, etc.] in his hands and is threatening to use it or is in the process of using it.  BPD is the 2nd most deadly mental health condition after Anorexia Nervosa [I have loved ones who have both].  https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info3.htm has more information.

   Circling back to your original question, on how to be more empathic - the quick and dirty way to do this immediately is to talk to him with using "I" pronouns, and avoid using the words "you", "but", "because", "however" or combination thereof that may come off sounding critical and/or judgemental towards him.  Use terms like "I hear you", "I feel your pain", it is important to be genuine in whatever you say.  Both of those expressions, acknowledge that you hear your partner without explicitly agreeing with him, so, he will feel heard - if he feels heard you will sound empathic to him, and less robot like.

"I try to listen to my partner, ask him if he only wants support or solutions, trying to reply with my own words about his feelings/situation, but still he sometimes tell me he feels like he's talking to a robot these times so he prefers not talking to me about how he feels when he's suicidal and in a depressive episode."

   Instead of using your 'own words' use 'his words' and reflect them back to him.

   The example I am going to use is a variation on the SET communication method as found at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695

   If he is suicidally depressed and says, "I think I want to kill myself."

   Say something like, "I feel your pain [support] that you want to kill yourself [truth reflection].  I think that life is worth living. [empathy]"  If it is safe to do so, move closer and hug and comfort him, and tell him "I don't know how I would cope if I were all alone [truth, in a non-judgemental way]"

   If his ideation is a fleeting one, and leaves when you said that, ask gently "I am concerned that you wanted to end it all, I really would like this to be shared with a therapist"  I am assuming he has one, if not he really should get one.  Then follow up with the therapist.  Also, if you don't have one, you may want to get one for yourself, so you can better cope with his dynamic in your life.

   If his ideation is a persistent one, then it is time to contact his therapist on their 24/7 number if they have one, or 988 if they don't have one "I hear that you still want to end it all, I cannot handle this, I need help so I am going to call T/988".

   If he has a weapon/pills in hand, and is threatening, then you need to do whatever it takes to stop the act of violence, and call 911 and do whatever it takes to stop him killing himself, be empathetic if you can, but you also need to be firm in your resolve on doing the right thing, and then do empathetic damage control once the violent act has been neutralized.

   Do not say anything like "If you kill yourself, that is the coward's way out." as that is judgemental.  "If you kill yourself, I will be lonely and I won't know what to do with myself"  this is being critical [making you lonely] is FOG as you will be conveying Fear Obligation and Guilt, which are counter productive to empathy.

   I hope this makes sense.  There are a lot of topics at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0 which will enable more empathy and tools to manage your situation.

   If you have questions, please ask, please vent.

   I will wrap this up, with my number one piece of advice, this is for you, not him, and that is to do 'self-care' - make sure it includes individual therapy, exercise outdoors [as simple as a walk], among other activities that you enjoy doing to recharge your spirit.

   Take care.

[Bella2798]

Bella,

   That is an awesome question.  Just by asking this question you are very sympathetic to your pwBPD.

   I am still learning to be more empathic; however, it requires neuroplasticity on your part to rewire the way you communicate with him.  The tools are contained on this site, and there are a lot of tools to learn.

   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0  has a list of skills and tools that you can use with your person with BPD.

   My number one suggestion is to not sound critical, and to let him know that you hear him [even if you don't agree with him].

   Since you mentioned that he feels suicidal, please if you are in the United States ring 988 if he is thinking about it, or 911 if he has the instrument(s) of death [pills, knife, gun, car keys, etc.] in his hands and is threatening to use it or is in the process of using it.  BPD is the 2nd most deadly mental health condition after Anorexia Nervosa [I have loved ones who have both].  https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info3.htm has more information.

   Circling back to your original question, on how to be more empathic - the quick and dirty way to do this immediately is to talk to him with using "I" pronouns, and avoid using the words "you", "but", "because", "however" or combination thereof that may come off sounding critical and/or judgemental towards him.  Use terms like "I hear you", "I feel your pain", it is important to be genuine in whatever you say.  Both of those expressions, acknowledge that you hear your partner without explicitly agreeing with him, so, he will feel heard - if he feels heard you will sound empathic to him, and less robot like.

"I try to listen to my partner, ask him if he only wants support or solutions, trying to reply with my own words about his feelings/situation, but still he sometimes tell me he feels like he's talking to a robot these times so he prefers not talking to me about how he feels when he's suicidal and in a depressive episode."

   Instead of using your 'own words' use 'his words' and reflect them back to him.

   The example I am going to use is a variation on the SET communication method as found at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695

   If he is suicidally depressed and says, "I think I want to kill myself."

   Say something like, "I feel your pain [support] that you want to kill yourself [truth reflection].  I think that life is worth living. [empathy]"  If it is safe to do so, move closer and hug and comfort him, and tell him "I don't know how I would cope if I were all alone [truth, in a non-judgemental way]"

   If his ideation is a fleeting one, and leaves when you said that, ask gently "I am concerned that you wanted to end it all, I really would like this to be shared with a therapist"  I am assuming he has one, if not he really should get one.  Then follow up with the therapist.  Also, if you don't have one, you may want to get one for yourself, so you can better cope with his dynamic in your life.

   If his ideation is a persistent one, then it is time to contact his therapist on their 24/7 number if they have one, or 988 if they don't have one "I hear that you still want to end it all, I cannot handle this, I need help so I am going to call T/988".

   If he has a weapon/pills in hand, and is threatening, then you need to do whatever it takes to stop the act of violence, and call 911 and do whatever it takes to stop him killing himself, be empathetic if you can, but you also need to be firm in your resolve on doing the right thing, and then do empathetic damage control once the violent act has been neutralized.

   Do not say anything like "If you kill yourself, that is the coward's way out." as that is judgemental.  "If you kill yourself, I will be lonely and I won't know what to do with myself"  this is being critical [making you lonely] is FOG as you will be conveying Fear Obligation and Guilt, which are counter productive to empathy.

   I hope this makes sense.  There are a lot of topics at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0 which will enable more empathy and tools to manage your situation.

   If you have questions, please ask, please vent.

   I will wrap this up, with my number one piece of advice, this is for you, not him, and that is to do 'self-care' - make sure it includes individual therapy, exercise outdoors [as simple as a walk], among other activities that you enjoy doing to recharge your spirit.

   Take care.

Dear SaltyDawg, thanks a lot for the time you put into writing for me, I really appreciate it. I was desperately looking for that part of the forum you mentioned for me and I couldn't find it. Thanks for all the information, I took a look and I think I willl read all the topics there.

To be honest our situation is a bit complicated. We'r currently in a long distance relationship so I can't reach him physically so it's much harder for me to understand him over the phone. And I can't afford a therapist now; I think having a therapist could solve a lot for me but I'm not in a good situation for that, so that's why I'm trying to make my best from this forum.
And for my partner... Well he has an appointment for a psychiatrist in the end of this month, and for a therapy session in about 4 months. So I feel helpless when he's feeling so down or even suicidal.
He has some health problems too, some of them came from bad childhood conditions and one came from severe anxiety while living under pressure for 6 months. He's dealing with many things at once inside and out and although he knows he has depression alongside his BPD, he thinks he'll never get better so talking about getting help doesn't actually work, specially on such occasions. Maybe I'm not educated for these situations too, so that's why I need to learn more. I don't exactly know if he has a barrier these times so we can't communicate properly, or I'm using wrong words and methods.

[SaltyDawg]

Bella,

   It sounds like you are in a different part of the world and mental health care is really limited where you are located.  If you let me know what country you are in, and him too, I could look up some low cost/free resources that you might be able to use.

   If you don't want to do that, you can visit your local house of worship [even if you are not a believer], and inquire if they know of any resources that you can use, same thing for him in the country that he is in.

   It is good that he is going to see a psychiatrist sometime in the next 2 weeks; however, having a therapy session several months off is not.  I would suggest working with him to come up with a list of questions and things to tell the psychiatrist before the visit, so he can make the best use of the limited resource.

   If you don't have a therapist or cannot afford one, this is probably the best place you can get help for someone who has BPD.  Your feelings are definitely valid, and I would imagine it is scarier for you than it is for me, as I do have access to resources that can help my situation.  This website, is part of bundled approach I am taking to deal with my personal situation, and by vocalizing and putting my thoughts into writing, I find it therapeutic for myself while helping others at the same time.

   You can also do a google search for "list of free dbt borderline pdfs" for additional 'workbooks' on DBT.  DBT is useful for BPD, along with other types of mental health issues and is useful for a variety of things.

   I suspect since communication is an issue, English may not be your first language.  What language do you and him speak together?  I will look for resources in your native language too.

   Take care of yourself with self-care, and take care of him too.

Dear SaltyDawg, thanks a lot for the time you put into writing for me, I really appreciate it. I was desperately looking for that part of the forum you mentioned for me and I couldn't find it. Thanks for all the information, I took a look and I think I willl read all the topics there.

To be honest our situation is a bit complicated. We'r currently in a long distance relationship so I can't reach him physically so it's much harder for me to understand him over the phone. And I can't afford a therapist now; I think having a therapist could solve a lot for me but I'm not in a good situation for that, so that's why I'm trying to make my best from this forum.
And for my partner... Well he has an appointment for a psychiatrist in the end of this month, and for a therapy session in about 4 months. So I feel helpless when he's feeling so down or even suicidal.
He has some health problems too, some of them came from bad childhood conditions and one came from severe anxiety while living under pressure for 6 months. He's dealing with many things at once inside and out and although he knows he has depression alongside his BPD, he thinks he'll never get better so talking about getting help doesn't actually work, specially on such occasions. Maybe I'm not educated for these situations too, so that's why I need to learn more. I don't exactly know if he has a barrier these times so we can't communicate properly, or I'm using wrong words and methods.

[Bella2798]

Bella,

   It sounds like you are in a different part of the world and mental health care is really limited where you are located.  If you let me know what country you are in, and him too, I could look up some low cost/free resources that you might be able to use.

   If you don't want to do that, you can visit your local house of worship [even if you are not a believer], and inquire if they know of any resources that you can use, same thing for him in the country that he is in.

   It is good that he is going to see a psychiatrist sometime in the next 2 weeks; however, having a therapy session several months off is not.  I would suggest working with him to come up with a list of questions and things to tell the psychiatrist before the visit, so he can make the best use of the limited resource.

   If you don't have a therapist or cannot afford one, this is probably the best place you can get help for someone who has BPD.  Your feelings are definitely valid, and I would imagine it is scarier for you than it is for me, as I do have access to resources that can help my situation.  This website, is part of bundled approach I am taking to deal with my personal situation, and by vocalizing and putting my thoughts into writing, I find it therapeutic for myself while helping others at the same time.

   You can also do a google search for "list of free dbt borderline pdfs" for additional 'workbooks' on DBT.  DBT is useful for BPD, along with other types of mental health issues and is useful for a variety of things.

   I suspect since communication is an issue, English may not be your first language.  What language do you and him speak together?  I will look for resources in your native language too.

   Take care of yourself with self-care, and take care of him too.

That's so kind of you! I live in Turkey and he's located in Germany. As I can't speak turkish, even if I can manage to afford therapy, I guess my choices are so limited. We both speak Persian, and even though there are many persian speaker people here, still finding a good therapist educated on BPD is hard. I tried this when I was in my country before coming to Turkey, and a very good therapist said he can't help me with BPD because he knows a little. Funny thing.

And thanks for the idea, he doesn't think therapy or medication can help him so much so he's not that much open to talk about the session he's going to have. But I would definitely talk about what he's going to ask some days before. Thanks again because I didn't have this in mind.

Do you think DBT works for all pwBPD? I'm asking this because he has tried it a bit before. There was a time when he was so suicidal that he arranged to get hospitalized. That clinic used DBT method as they said, but he didn't find it useful. I saw no progress in him after 3 weeks spending there. I know this amount of time is not enough for anything to take place, but I was thinking maybe another approach would be more useful and effective to him. Anyway I'm going to look again for DBT workbooks with a different perspective this time.

Thanks a lot again, you've helped me so much with all the suggestions and advices!

[SaltyDawg]

That's so kind of you! I live in Turkey and he's located in Germany. As I can't speak turkish, even if I can manage to afford therapy, I guess my choices are so limited. We both speak Persian, and even though there are many persian speaker people here, still finding a good therapist educated on BPD is hard. I tried this when I was in my country before coming to Turkey, and a very good therapist said he can't help me with BPD because he knows a little. Funny thing.

Understood, Persian resources are limited as that is mostly a Muslim world and the Muslim faith does not have much room, if any, for mental health issues that cannot be solved through prayer.  Prayer is helpful, but often is not enough.  I have been to both countries, and there is a huge cultural difference, and that doesn't help matters either, making your struggle that much more difficult.  If you cannot find one that deals with BPD specifically, do find one that deals with 'high conflict' relationships and specifically one that deals with 'suicidal ideation' in your partner and how to manage your feelings when your partner does this to you.


And thanks for the idea, he doesn't think therapy or medication can help him so much so he's not that much open to talk about the session he's going to have. But I would definitely talk about what he's going to ask some days before. Thanks again because I didn't have this in mind.

Medication can manage [lessen] the symptoms of BPD; however, it cannot put it into remission.  However, therapy, if followed to the end, with a 'self-awareness' is often helpful in 60-98% of the cases; however, it requires extensive therapy anywhere from 6 months to 2+ years, and then occasional therapy thereafter to maintain.


Do you think DBT works for all pwBPD? I'm asking this because he has tried it a bit before. There was a time when he was so suicidal that he arranged to get hospitalized. That clinic used DBT method as they said, but he didn't find it useful. I saw no progress in him after 3 weeks spending there. I know this amount of time is not enough for anything to take place, but I was thinking maybe another approach would be more useful and effective to him. Anyway I'm going to look again for DBT workbooks with a different perspective this time.

I think there are varying levels of effectiveness of DBT, it is currently considered the best, but not the only therapy that is useful for BPD.  I am going to use the analogy of 'learning a language'.  If you take a foreign language class 3 times, will you be fluent in it?  The obvious answer of 'no' is the same for DBT, an initial introduction to 3 sessions, is not helpful.  Our previous couple's T used DBT and it took 6 months before it started to be effective and over 3 years to be really effective - but my wife and I are slow learners.

It is a long and slow journey, there will be ups and downs.  A megamarathon, and really can only be managed effectively.  The suicidal ideations are the biggest concern and that must be addressed, hopefully his visit in the next two weeks will be helpful.  Follow the advice that the psychiatrist gives.

Please be sure to do some self-care with all of this, that way you have enough energy to deal with his issues.

Take care.

[Bella2798]

That's so kind of you! I live in Turkey and he's located in Germany. As I can't speak turkish, even if I can manage to afford therapy, I guess my choices are so limited. We both speak Persian, and even though there are many persian speaker people here, still finding a good therapist educated on BPD is hard. I tried this when I was in my country before coming to Turkey, and a very good therapist said he can't help me with BPD because he knows a little. Funny thing.

Understood, Persian resources are limited as that is mostly a Muslim world and the Muslim faith does not have much room, if any, for mental health issues that cannot be solved through prayer.  Prayer is helpful, but often is not enough.  I have been to both countries, and there is a huge cultural difference, and that doesn't help matters either, making your struggle that much more difficult.  If you cannot find one that deals with BPD specifically, do find one that deals with 'high conflict' relationships and specifically one that deals with 'suicidal ideation' in your partner and how to manage your feelings when your partner does this to you.


And thanks for the idea, he doesn't think therapy or medication can help him so much so he's not that much open to talk about the session he's going to have. But I would definitely talk about what he's going to ask some days before. Thanks again because I didn't have this in mind.

Medication can manage [lessen] the symptoms of BPD; however, it cannot put it into remission.  However, therapy, if followed to the end, with a 'self-awareness' is often helpful in 60-98% of the cases; however, it requires extensive therapy anywhere from 6 months to 2+ years, and then occasional therapy thereafter to maintain.


Do you think DBT works for all pwBPD? I'm asking this because he has tried it a bit before. There was a time when he was so suicidal that he arranged to get hospitalized. That clinic used DBT method as they said, but he didn't find it useful. I saw no progress in him after 3 weeks spending there. I know this amount of time is not enough for anything to take place, but I was thinking maybe another approach would be more useful and effective to him. Anyway I'm going to look again for DBT workbooks with a different perspective this time.

I think there are varying levels of effectiveness of DBT, it is currently considered the best, but not the only therapy that is useful for BPD.  I am going to use the analogy of 'learning a language'.  If you take a foreign language class 3 times, will you be fluent in it?  The obvious answer of 'no' is the same for DBT, an initial introduction to 3 sessions, is not helpful.  Our previous couple's T used DBT and it took 6 months before it started to be effective and over 3 years to be really effective - but my wife and I are slow learners.

It is a long and slow journey, there will be ups and downs.  A megamarathon, and really can only be managed effectively.  The suicidal ideations are the biggest concern and that must be addressed, hopefully his visit in the next two weeks will be helpful.  Follow the advice that the psychiatrist gives.

Please be sure to do some self-care with all of this, that way you have enough energy to deal with his issues.

Take care.

A big thanks for all the suggestions again! I've started my path through them!
I wish you the very very best.