Am I being manipulated?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Issue came up with my son and his wife today - they are pregnant and gave us the news on a FaceTime call (they live 5 minutes from us) whereas they drove 45 minutes to my in-laws to give them the news in person.  This triggered my BPD wife to no end.  Granted I am not happy about it but understand why they did what they did.  So this evening my wife asks me to call them and let them know how hurt I was by this action.  I told her I would do it on Monday but she got extremely upset when I told her this. I am wondering if she is trying to manipulate me - I never really paid attention to this sort of thing before but I’m wondering if this is common in BPD folks.  What do you all think?

[Chief Drizzt]

Issue came up with my son and his wife today - they are pregnant and gave us the news on a FaceTime call (they live 5 minutes from us) whereas they drove 45 minutes to my in-laws to give them the news in person.  This triggered my BPD wife to no end.  Granted I am not happy about it but understand why they did what they did.  So this evening my wife asks me to call them and let them know how hurt I was by this action.  I told her I would do it on Monday but she got extremely upset when I told her this. I am wondering if she is trying to manipulate me - I never really paid attention to this sort of thing before but I’m wondering if this is common in BPD folks.  What do you all think?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rev]

Yes ... you are being manipulated to say what she hasn't the courage to say so leaving you liable to clean up the mess the confrontation may create.

Steer clear. Hold your ground. Tread softly.

Rev

[Chief Drizzt]

She is saying that by not doing it I am not protecting her.  I don’t even know what that means….

[Husband2014]

My wife does this crap to me on the weekly. She wants to get mad at someone but wants me to pretend I’m the one who’s mad. I ate it for a long time now I tell her I can’t feel what she feels and not obliged to feel how she feels and she can pick up the phone and tell them. It’s a bit better but it will create nastiness for her to get it.

[Chief Drizzt]

My wife does this crap to me on the weekly. She wants to get mad at someone but wants me to pretend I’m the one who’s mad. I ate it for a long time now I tell her I can’t feel what she feels and not obliged to feel how she feels and she can pick up the phone and tell them. It’s a bit better but it will create nastiness for her to get it.

Man - glad to know that his is not a unique experience. 

[Rev]

Man - glad to know that his is not a unique experience. 

Not unique in the least.

[Smedley Butler]

100% what Rev said.

[Notwendy]

Reading about the Karpman triangle helped me to understand these dynamics.

Your wife is taking victim role. Your son and wife are in persecutor role. Your wife is expecting you to step in as rescuer and take her side "against them" and yes, say this for her so she doesn't have to be the one to say it. So you then are the "persecutor" to them. These dynamics are common in my family with my parents.

My BPD mother sees people as "on her side" or "not her side" and expected my father to be "on her side",  and not just with him. She often "puts people up" to saying things for her. We (her children) feel manipulated when she does this with us.

However, if you choose to take your wife's side with your adult children, understand that they may have good reason for their distance and are also in a difficult position- that they don't want to be in. They didn't want to do anything hurtful, but they also want to have their own family boundaries

[GaGrl]

You cannot feel your wife's emotions for her.

You are not responsible for your wife's emotions.

Attempts on her part to have you turn her emotions into your behavior are manipulative and misguided.

[Chief Drizzt]

You cannot feel your wife's emotions for her.

You are not responsible for your wife's emotions.

Attempts on her part to have you turn her emotions into your behavior are manipulative and misguided.

Hi - you know to be honest it’s not her emotions that are the problem.  With regards to the issue with my son I also am hurt be his and his wife’s actions - It’s her over-reactions to the situations that are the problem.  I mean I don’t blame her for being hurt - but her over-the-top emotional bursts are the problem.  The crying, talking to herself, and yelling.  That’s the issue.  She thinks I have a problem because I keep my emotions buried or don’t let them show.  Over-reacting is just not who I am - and you would think that after 33 years of marriage she would know that. 

[Notwendy]

What is the reason that your son and his wife chose to inform you this way and did it differently with your in laws?

[Chief Drizzt]

What is the reason that your son and his wife chose to inform you this way and did it differently with your in laws?

I’m not exactly sure - but my wife did attempt suicide back in February and it probably has to do with that.  Without boring you with the details of that I’ll just say the event was triggered by family “drama” that all three kids were involved in.  My wife was starting to get emotional and my two boys wanting to remove our daughter from the situation (both of whom are extremely protective of her) led her to take that as some kind of attack which caused her to take pills.  In the hospital she tried again when she was left alone.  I understand the hesitancy to see us in person but we had gotten together since the suicide attempt so I just felt like they should have told us in person.  Personally it hurts - but having said that - I do understand.  My wife has no concept of why though.

[thankful person]

My wife has often asked me to present her opinions and feelings as my own, particularly with my side of the family. I have done this in the past even when I haven’t agreed with her, just to keep the peace. It makes me shudder to think the conversation I intended to have with my parents a few years ago. My wife announced that she doesn’t want my parents leaving money for our children when they die. She was left a large amount of money when her grandfather passed. She was bulimic at the time and spent most of it on food, but also cosmetic surgery. My wife wants my parents to instead set up some kind of funds for extra curricular activities, further education study etc. so that our kids cannot waste the money like she did. Whilst I do not disagree with this in principle, my parents can do what they like with their money and it is not my place to try and influence that. I seriously hope our children would make better choices than my wife did. I know when my parents pass away they will have left the children money. I know my wife will be angry with me even though I never told her I had the discussion I said I would have with them. They have been denied the relationship they would have liked with their grandchildren and if there’s one thing I can give them it’s the choice to do what they want without my wife interfering.

[Notwendy]

I can understand how you feel hurt. I can only guess the reason for your son's decision, but I have had it happen that my own self efforts to protect myself and my family have inadvertently "hurt" my parents' feelings and other family members connected to them as well. I think I can say that "hurting your feelings" was not your son's primary intent.

We, as children of BPD parents, have our own emotional experience growing up with this situation. The Karpman triangle dynamics also were  prevalent in our family. It was hard to have boundaries with my mother, and my father, as much as I could see that he made great efforts to protect us, also would do and say things to us that I suspect BPD mother wanted him to.

It was being a parent that made me begin to have boundaries but growing up in a family where emotionally healthy boundaries were not demonstrated, or even allowed, I didn't do them with the best of skill. I know it sounds hurtful to think your kids want to protect their kids from you and your wife, but think about it- they are trying to have these boundaries so that they can maintain some kind of relationship with you. If they didn't want to do this, they'd not communicate with you.

I encourage you to take a stand back here and try to see beyond your hurt feelings even if they are justified. Your son would not have made this decision if he felt emotionally safe with the two of you, and if he can't feel emotionally safe with you, he's  going to protect himself and protect his family emotionally

Your son's decision to not come tell you in person is an opportunity for you to show some understanding for his feelings. Your son has an emotionally disordered parent and logically, he's going to have some feelings about this and so is his wife.

Your son and his wife just shared amazing news with you and they are so happy. Consider the what it might be like for him if  you called him up to express that you share his joy instead of expressing you and your wife's hurt feelings with him today.

[Chief Drizzt]

Notwendy - yea I completely understand where he is coming from.  I did not know what BPD was until my wife’s suicide attempt and my daughter’s therapist brought the possibility up with her.  Since then my kids and I have been on the same page regarding my wife’s BPD.  The whole situation is new to me - as I am just realizing that maybe I have been getting manipulated by my wife for years.  My kids all told me they have known something wasn’t right with my wife for years - which makes me feel pretty bad that I was ignorant of it.

After giving it some thought and reading your post I’m not going to call him and let him know of any hurt feelings.  It is what it is - I’m already over it - the problem is that my wife isn’t and will probably keep hounding me about it….

[Notwendy]

- the problem is that my wife isn’t and will probably keep hounding me about it….

Yes, and I have seen my mother hound my father and us as well. It's also difficult as this kind of behavior has been going on for a while and so it's been reinforced- it works for her.

I understand the situation my father was in and why he gave in to these kinds of demands because it seemed to be the only way for him to gain some peace.

I suggest you pause and learn before taking action, so you understand the dynamics. On my part, I acted naively, not being aware of the larger family dynamics. BPD mother was beginning to enlist my then, adolescent kids, as her emotional caretaker and confidants. One of my boundaries had been to not leave my mother alone with my kids and this was not because I wanted to be mean and hurtful to them, it's because of her behaviors with us kids growing up and a wish to protect them from that. However, during visits, both parents and I were there and my father was great with the kids. As they reached adolescence, they didn't need adult supervision and so my BPD mother began to try to get one of them to go off with her alone. While I knew she wouldn't physically harm them, I could see that she was being manipulative with them, enlisting them as confidants and emotional caretakers and so I had to have more boundaries.

I assumed my father would understand. He knew what we experienced as kids. Wouldn't he understand that I didn't want to allow this to happen to my kids? I don't know if he understood or not, but as you can imagine, BPD mother was angry about it and so, pulled him to her side as "rescuer". I didn't imagine that doing this would cost me the relationship with my father. I still believe I made the best decision I could for my kids but I think if I had been more aware of the dynamics I would have reacted to some things differently.

Also, I understand as a parent that having a child enforce such boundaries is hurtful. Reading about the Karpman triangle dynamics will help you to understand that your wife sees things from victim perspective and likely her preferred role for you is rescuer. For this to happen, there has to be a persecutor. At the moment, it's your son and his wife but that can change to whoever, or whatever is causing her feelings at the time.

Whatever your wife has done in your relationship, consider that it's happened with your kids as well. It's hard to shift focus to how your kids might be feeling when your own relationship has been focused on your wife's feelings and moods. I am also in agreement that the marriage is the primary relationship but a relationship with adult children matters too, and may take some work on your part in recognizing that, they have choices now too. As kids, we are truly dependent and have no choice but to accept how our parents treat us. And as adults we still want a relationship with our parents to the extent it is possible. If your son is communicating with you, then a relationship is possible.

It could be difficult for you to not go along with your wife and essentially relate her feelings for her with your son, and become her partner in risking that relationship further. But you can also choose to let her do it herself. Whose feelings are they anyway? Hers. Let her deal with them.

[Chief Drizzt]

Thanks Notwendy - your posts are very insightful and have been helpful for me.

 I have never heard of the Karpman triangle - I’ve read two books on BPD and don’t recall seeing the term.  I’ll look it up and dig in.

[Notwendy]

Thanks - I hope it helps you to see the dynamics in your family that are common when there's a disordered family member. I hope it will help you to maintain a better relationship with your children and this new baby.

[NarcsEverywhere]

This is a common and unhealthy dynamic between women and men. Some (not all) women want you to be some fierce protector, and you can do it and feel "manly", but the result is her being infantilized and not owning the power she actually has over her own life, and you taking responsibility for her behavior. It might seem like the woman gets some huge perk from it, but it's actually more damaging to her than anyone.

There are very few circumstances in modern life, where a woman can't do stuff that a man can. Maybe sometimes physical strength wise, and sure everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, so I not saying that things are always going to be fair. But women being seen as perpetual victims is horrible for women, and it also sets up men as perpetrators, since they are taking responsibility that is simply not theirs in a variety of situations.

[Notwendy]

I think it's inaccurate to say this is common between men and women.  Emotionally healthy relationships do not include Karpman triangle dynamics. Karpman triangle dynamics are more common in disordered relationships. They involve people expecting someone to do something for them that they are capable of doing themselves. That's also enabling.  Both men and women can be enabling. Karpman triangle dynamics can also exist in same sex relationships.

If two people are not physically the same size or there's a difference in abilities- either physical or different talents, they can have a reciprocal shared relationship that doesn't necessarily involve disfunction.

I think we can make a distinction between interdependence and co-dependency/enabling. The first is a reciprocal relationship between two emotionally mature adults and the other is dysfunctional. It's not as much about who does what for the other than the dynamic in the relationship.

[Rev]

I think it's inaccurate to say this is common between men and women.  Emotionally healthy relationships do not include Karpman triangle dynamics. Karpman triangle dynamics are more common in disordered relationships. They involve people expecting someone to do something for them that they are capable of doing themselves. That's also enabling.  Both men and women can be enabling. Karpman triangle dynamics can also exist in same sex relationships.

If two people are not physically the same size or there's a difference in abilities- either physical or different talents, they can have a reciprocal shared relationship that doesn't necessarily involve disfunction.

I think we can make a distinction between interdependence and co-dependency/enabling. The first is a reciprocal relationship between two emotionally mature adults and the other is dysfunctional. It's not as much about who does what for the other than the dynamic in the relationship.

This is well said - in fact, there is an increasing voice (out of the UK in the masters level research I did) to move away from using gender as a basis for evaluating the dynamic in relationships and focussing in on behaviors instead.