Help Please - Likely Quiet BPD Husband & need advice on next steps

[om123]

Hi, I've literally never posted on a board, let alone like this. I'm just feeling truly desperate, I don't know how much my own therapist knows about this condition and wondering if I'm on the right track about my husband being a Quiet BPD as well as best next steps. We have 2 young children that are my TOP priority. I've recently asked him to leave due to increasing abuse with hope this will get him to do trauma therapy. But, as of right now, he is out of the house a week,  seems to be in his defensive mode refusing to do real therapy and enjoying his free time and telling his friends/family. Brief Summary and I welcome your advice/feedback:
1. I was raised by bipolar/possibly BPD/very complex trauma mother then alchoholic (symptom of trauma covering). I've spent decades working to heal, etc.. I thought I had broken cycle of being with abusive men, but my husband of 10 years I think is quiet BPD.
2. I know I am not a psychologist, nor are most here but you all have experience, but my observations that make me think he is Quiet BPD (please tell me if this resonates):
* He has always been a pleaser, avoidant to an extreme that no one would ever dislike him - he is loved by ALL as so charming/a professional performer my family can barely believe what I'm telling them.
* He is from a family of total avoidance (so and so is a drug addict, let's pretend they aren't), emotional ignoring and emotional abuse/neglect as child and a culture where men are 'in charge'. He had massive tantrums as a kid and was teased/ignored, never supported.
* He stonewalls and ignores me for days, weeks and up to a month when I have no family/friends near me.
* His moods changing extremely - I have said his 'moods' have gotten worse the last 2 years in particular, but realizing the extreme 'I love you/I hate you' Jekyl/Hyde is so similar to my mom and just not within a normal realm. I'm realizing I don't think it is moody, but cycling.
*  His emotional detachment of literally seeming temporarily like a sociopath if I am sad (i.e. laughing at me crying, etc..).
* His difficulty with intimacy yet obsession with sex, porn.  
* Rarely if ever apologize/acknowledge his role and gaslighting me to point I think I'm crazy.
* His eyes that go blank/numb as he shuts off.
* His literally leaving/walking out away on hard situations (i.e. my miscarriage and he disappears, is cruel) but literally can't deal.
* His years of porn (addiction) that has only been revealed.
* His increasing impulsivity.
* Increased numbing (drinking, porn, historically pot, etc.. )
* Increased impulsivity (i.e. threatening to fabricate story to police, etc..)
* Increased emotional, open verbal in public and edge of physical abuse
* Increasingly cut me off to his family and bad mouthing me to them
* He's started to make up stories, says I cheated (never did, etc..)

CYCLE - He does the above and after these things, he is defensive, often blames me and makes me think I'm crazy but then (after he breaks my heart) in a week or so comes around and is loving/kind until the next thing 'offends' or upsets him and he stonewalls/ignores/gaslights, etc...

DOES THIS SOUND like quiet BPD? or Petulant variety as it is man tantrums.

3. How I've dealt so far:
*For years, encouraged him to get therapy. He instead guilted me into marriage counseling and we went in circles (nothing real as he  is totally closed off).
* I said he needed to get therapy for himself if I'd continue marriage counseling as it was just a joke/surface. He charms the therapists.
*  He refused but then after increasing abuse, gave ultimatum last year - get therapy or out. It has to stop. He found a therapist, but his behavior worse and he still wont' acknowledge his abuse, cycles, his own family trauma, etc... and he's weaponized it blaming me for everything.

*Then, 9 months ago I found out he's been a porn watcher/addict for  majority of our marriage (he denies but watches weekly totally knowing and having discussed this wasn't okay for me/our marriage). (cue: defense, blaming me... few weeks then huge seemingly sincere apology, promise to renew our marriage, etc... ). He says he's stopped, but I don't know.
 
* NOW - Fast forward 9 months, the emotional and verbal abuse has escalated and recently it got on edge of physical. He did something so disrespectful to me and was totally glazed eyes unapologetic and went to leave.  When he refused to apologize for the physical threat,  I asked him to leave for a break and to get TRAUMA Therapy with a qualified person. I'm literally pulling at straws here what to do, but I know he needs help.

4. He's been gone a week and refusing to find a qualified trauma therapist, he's passive aggressively isolating me more and more from my limited friends and his family and saying he's not coming back. Then I learned he was threatening fabricating abuse to a police report! this could threaten our children. Totally terrifying. I'm stuck with no idea his plan, juggling 2 kids no support in a very remote place trying to decide next steps.

5. What should I do?  Do I stand ground on separation unless he finds a trauma therapist? Where do I find and ensure a therapist knows this stuff in event he is BPD? I so don't want to divorce as a I see a very hurt, broken man I love who is lashing out to avoid his roots of pain, but I have to keep my self and kids safe/healthy. He digs in more and more if I try to engage.

Thank you from bottom of my heart for listening. I'm sorry if confusing and so long and not very articulate. I'm just desperate trying to find insight if this is BPD and how to maintain being supportive but also being safe (not allowing abuse as the emotional trauma of this has begun hurting all the healing I've done). I found this site and watched some videos and my jaw dropped as it felt so what I've been living...

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[Pook075]

We have 2 young children that are my TOP priority. I've recently asked him to leave due to increasing abuse with hope this will get him to do trauma therapy.

Hello and welcome to the forums.  I'm sorry you're going through this and it sounds like a highly volatile situation.

I'll start with your main priority- the children.  You said you're isolated with very little resources and that's not a good position to be in.  Is there a family member you can take the children to stay with as you sort through this?  That actually does two things- it gets you in a better place and it also gives you witnesses to your proper child care.

Next, let's talk about quiet BPD.  My ex-wife was diagnosed and there are many similarities, but also a few things that make me feel like there's something else going on.  You said "like a sociopath..." in one sentence and that's where my mind was already at, his cruelty seems pretty intense.  That's for a therapist to figure out but for now, I would urge you to use caution on how you approach him with ultimatums. 

For instance, you said he made a physical threat...but you stopped him from leaving and demanded an apology? That's dangerous. Next time call the police instead and begin a paper trail.  It also reinforces that bad behavior is not accepted and he can't treat you that way penalty-free.

For your main question- are you out of line demanding trauma therapy?  That's a very complicated answer because therapy will only help when he's ready to take it seriously.  Some people are never ready and you have to prepare for that.  Giving it in an ultimatum though is practically a guarantee that he won't comply, because he doesn't see any problem with his behavior. 

Likewise, accusing him of having BPD (or any mental illness) would also likely backfire for the same reasons.

My advice is to take some time to read the sticky tabs at the top of this website and learn to better deal with communicating with someone with BPD.  Better communication can't solve all BPD problems, but it can certainly make things a heck of a lot better in rebuilding some trust and establishing healthy boundaries.

I hope that helps.

[om123]

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the time to reply and your compassion. It makes me realize how cruel he has been when I write it out...I have just dealt with the ups and downs as this behavior is balanced with AMAZING love, affection, connection and most charming/talented/wise man in bursts but then after a stretch it switches seemingly out of the blue  (or a small disagreement) and he gives me silent treatment, cruelty, etc... I should clarify the sociopath comment is maybe not accurate, but he just 'shuts off', like goes blank as if he isn't seeing his wife/mother of his children he loves deep down in pain and he's just watching a stoplight. Or, after the miscarriages I had, he either physically finds an excuse to leave the situation/house or is no emotion. It is really shocking and hurtful, but I am now seeing the patterns more clearly to try and 'unhook' so I don't get so broken apart after it...  

I'm not near family or many friends and trying to see if he is going to let this be a wakeup call, but I have finally told my close family and friends what is happening vs. hiding it because we are 'picture perfect' to most. I have enough finances on hand as he threatens that sometimes when he's in a 'mood'. I have documented this with my own therapist as again, my kids are top priority.

And, sadly, thank you for reminder he must choose to do this work and I can't make him... as much as I wish. I was hopeful when he started therapy last year, but alas, he is still overtly evading any childhood trauma and behavior is escalating. I know sadly from my mom that one can evade healing process and continue to suffer til the end despite every outside effort...  

Thank you again...and I'll get reading the tabs you mentioned.

[Pook075]

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the time to reply and your compassion. It makes me realize how cruel he has been when I write it out...I have just dealt with the ups and downs as this behavior is balanced with AMAZING love, affection, connection and most charming/talented/wise man in bursts but then after a stretch it switches seemingly out of the blue  (or a small disagreement) and he gives me silent treatment, cruelty, etc... I should clarify the sociopath comment is maybe not accurate, but he just 'shuts off', like goes blank as if he isn't seeing his wife/mother of his children he loves deep down in pain and he's just watching a stoplight. Or, after the miscarriages I had, he either physically finds an excuse to leave the situation/house or is no emotion. It is really shocking and hurtful, but I am now seeing the patterns more clearly to try and 'unhook' so I don't get so broken apart after it...  

I'm not near family or many friends and trying to see if he is going to let this be a wakeup call, but I have finally told my close family and friends what is happening vs. hiding it because we are 'picture perfect' to most. I have enough finances on hand as he threatens that sometimes when he's in a 'mood'. I have documented this with my own therapist as again, my kids are top priority.

And, sadly, thank you for reminder he must choose to do this work and I can't make him... as much as I wish. I was hopeful when he started therapy last year, but alas, he is still overtly evading any childhood trauma and behavior is escalating. I know sadly from my mom that one can evade healing process and continue to suffer til the end despite every outside effort...  

Thank you again...and I'll get reading the tabs you mentioned.

When my wife and I separated over a year ago, she was hopelessly depressed and completely shut down.  I'd try to talk to her and work through whatever problems she was facing, but she'd roll over in bed and pretend to go to sleep.

Why?  Because even though she was miserable, it was safer for her mentally to suffer in silence than possibly expressing how she felt to me and having me reject her.  One day she just decided to leave and the marriage was over, and wouldn't even consider trying to work through things.  Again, running away was the "safer" option in her mind because she couldn't take me rejecting her (even though I never would have).

My wife is what's called Quiet BPD.  All the same symptoms and struggles as regular BPD, but the anger/sadness/rage often is directed inward instead of at other people.  It builds and builds until they basically explode, which takes everyone by surprise because they have no idea what the heck just happened.  My 24 year old daughter is traditional BPD and acts the exact opposite way- everything is verbal and reactionary, sometimes even violent.

For your husband, he had a choice to support you during a miscarriage, or focus on his own emotions that just couldn't handle the situation.  So he went and did his own thing for self-preservation and got through it however the heck he could. Like my wife, he took the "safer" route without even considering that you may need him for support, and that's where most of your bad relationship dynamics come from.

Now, that doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean what they did was actually "safer"- that's just how they process emotions because they feel them so intensely.  When they're dysregulated, it's like they have a "spidey-sense" in that they feel so much more and their part of the brain that deals with logic completely shuts off.  It's 100% emotion in real time and that can lead to violence, self-harm, lashing out, or anything in between.

The #1 thing your husband needs is not crisis counseling, it's unconditional love and support.  However, he seeks it with bad behavior that he feels is justified in the moment because he's unstable and running on pure emotion.  Maybe he doesn't even remember half the things he said or did, that's normal with BPD (if that's what's going on here).  But at the root of it all, his actions come from a fear of abandonment and losing his family...so he tells himself that he doesn't need you guys.  It's a lie though and only makes him more unstable as he descends down the rabbit hole.

To save your marriage, you have to find a way to support him and help him stabilize so that the outbursts last minutes and not days, weeks, etc.  You do that by reacting to what his emotions are saying instead of the words coming out of his mouth.  That's the whole push/pull dynamic of "I hate you, don't leave me!" and you have to work past that with support and love.

Now, sometimes you just can't.  If he's threatening or violent, you get the heck out of there and save the conversation for another day.  That has to be a clear boundary that he's never allowed to cross- you threaten me, and I'm walking away (or calling the police).  If someone's dysregulated and you can't calm them through reassurance, the worst thing you can do is stand there and argue because it's not a fair fight...they're saying whatever they say in the moment and feel that it's justified regardless of how wrong it is.  Because in that moment, they're hurting that deeply and blaming you for feeling that way. 

The real culprit in those situations is mental health and it's not something any of us can "fix" on our own.  That goes back to our prior conversation though; your husband won't get help until he realizes there's a problem that he can't deal with on his own.  I hope some of that helps!

[Outdorenthusiast]

First - I am sorry that you are having to deal with all of this.  It isn’t fair, nor fun, and you aren’t alone.  Second - what you feel is correct - he is in the wrong.

Some of the things you explain can actually be just man tantrums as we process things differently than most women.  We don’t “talk things out” as much as we should when we are hurt.  For those with avoidant personalities - they tend to shy away from intense emotions - so one thing that could help is checking your approach when expressing your feelings to him.  If you have an emotional personality - this could be a source of conflict as you both will need to meet each other to make it better

Having said that - it is possible, CPTSD/PTSD could be involved if he had a rough childhood.  There is heavy overlap between CPTSD and BPD and can actually be a comorbidity.  The core difference is intense fear of abandonment.  Addictions are bad - but they are coping mechanisms.  “Why” the addiction is something a therapist can work with him on.  Best you can do is not nag, but express how it makes you feel.  He will need to decide what to do with that information.  Ultimately- you will need to decide what you can tolerate, and for how long, and under what conditions.  If you Nag it will paint a difficult challenge where he feels attacked and will start painting you black.  Making stuff up about you could be because he feels you hurt him emotionally when you recommended  he leave out of his house - so he is feeling vindictive.

Some guys need physical stimulation to feel safe and open up their feelings instead of stonewalling.  I am not just talking sex either. 

Regardless - he does need help to express his feelings more productively instead of throwing tantrums and stonewalling.  Expressing calmly how it makes you feel - keep it up, and have Healthy boundaries for what you are not willing to tolerate.

-Outdoor

[om123]

Thank you. I think you are right it may be PTSD/complex trauma, I'm not the expert, but know he needs help. He's refusing at moment and I'm the total villain no matter what I say calmly (are you talking to your therapist still?), etc...He acts as though he barely knows me when he visits the kids. It feels like complete dissociation from his behavior - he's acting as if we just happily said 'let's take a marriage break' vs. the reality of abuse, me drawing a line saying he needs to leave and now I'm juggling kids who are totally confused/worried (trying my best to support). I think he literally convinces himself of the narrative in his head (hence the police threat, etc...).

I am praying he chooses to get help, but I think I have to be prepared for him refusing - I know he is in pain, hurting inside and terrified to deal with whatever it is, but I also know the emotional/verbal abuse and recent physical threat is not going to go away unless he gets help. I have to care for my well-being (not taking any more emotional/verbal abuse) and boundaries so I can care for my kids. A really hard time not knowing what is next and trying to be a rock for kids.

Right now, I am feeling he must show me he is getting real therapy if he is to be back in the home. His increasing escalation, impulsivity, etc... is really unsettling. I don't know what else to do but physical separation until that happens.

Thank you all for your insight and taking time.

[Pook075]

Right now, I am feeling he must show me he is getting real therapy if he is to be back in the home. His increasing escalation, impulsivity, etc... is really unsettling. I don't know what else to do but physical separation until that happens.

Thank you all for your insight and taking time.

The absolute best thing you can focus on right now is the things you can control- which is you and the kids.  And for you to be the best possible mom you can be, you have to stop focusing on your husband at the moment and the pain associated with what's going on.  I know, I know, that's impossible...it was impossible for me as well.  But you still have to try to turn your focus away from what's broken and zoom in on what you need to get through this week.

We'd all love to see your husband say, "You know what, you're right.  I'm going to therapy and I'm going to take it seriously." That's just not how the BPD mind works though, they see themselves as the victim and struggle to empathize with what their actions may have caused.  And in the rare moments that they do realize the mistakes they've made, it eats away at them internally with tons of guilt and shame.  Admitting that feels impossible to them though because they're the victim and they want to justify their own actions.

I can tell you this- I'm sure your husband loves you.  People w/ BPD lash out at those they love the most out of not feeling loved and fear of abandonment.  He may be acting like he's okay, but I promise you that he's not.

Again, today your job is to focus on yourself and the kids.  Go for a walk- maybe have a picnic somewhere nearby your house.  Invest in yourself and your children because that's your best path towards healing.  I'm so sorry you're going through this!

[om123]

Thank you all so much again,  very good advice during such a hard time. He is still gone 3 weeks now... his usual was 2 week cycle so thought he'd circle back but think he's honestly loving his solo bachelor time no responsibilities, no juggling kids emotions, free time other than work. He's coming to visit kids acting cold/won't look at me and all friendly with kids. He's threatening getting courts involved 'if I don' t let him see kids' but I calmly say, I am letting you see them, I even had you for dinner as kids wanted it.

Just crazy making as he literally doesn't seem to hear me acknowledge anything, says I 'accuse' him if I'm asking if he's seeing a therapist and storms off. It is impossible to talk with him as he hangs up/storms off or falsifies some information I've not done... He's off to a men's retreat next week and praying desperately it will be some helpful insight for him, but am dubious. I'm all about complimentary healing, but feel strongly he needs trauma informed therapy at core for me to feel safe for him to be back in home... I firmly believe marriage is a commitment for better or worse, but I also have to feel me and kids safe.... 

I know this board is about support, etc... but I am struggling desperately in this limbo trying to stay afloat for kids and planning on side for a divorce as a current stay at home part time working mom.... and he's intermittently threatening financial stuff. I've offered love/support, etc... but then its eating away at me and I feel I need to give him deadline of end of month to make a decision to get help or not. I tend to be co-dependent/want to save from my traumatic childhood/bipolar mom and have told him he has to be willing and make the decision on his own. I don't want to divorce but I have to keep my self healthy for my kids. Trying to set a time frame for my own sanity, but not sure what best approach is.... an ultimatum forces therapy but not his readiness. Am I supposed to wait indefinitely as he is out of our marriage/home and I'm juggling it alone with kids or say no, I need to move on and need to know by this date what your choice is. I feel it is like playing games guessing his response....

Thank you all... such a nightmare.

[Pook075]

Thank you all so much again,  very good advice during such a hard time. He is still gone 3 weeks now... his usual was 2 week cycle so thought he'd circle back but think he's honestly loving his solo bachelor time no responsibilities, no juggling kids emotions, free time other than work. He's coming to visit kids acting cold/won't look at me and all friendly with kids. He's threatening getting courts involved 'if I don' t let him see kids' but I calmly say, I am letting you see them, I even had you for dinner as kids wanted it.

Just crazy making as he literally doesn't seem to hear me acknowledge anything, says I 'accuse' him if I'm asking if he's seeing a therapist and storms off. It is impossible to talk with him as he hangs up/storms off or falsifies some information I've not done... He's off to a men's retreat next week and praying desperately it will be some helpful insight for him, but am dubious. I'm all about complimentary healing, but feel strongly he needs trauma informed therapy at core for me to feel safe for him to be back in home... I firmly believe marriage is a commitment for better or worse, but I also have to feel me and kids safe.... 

I know this board is about support, etc... but I am struggling desperately in this limbo trying to stay afloat for kids and planning on side for a divorce as a current stay at home part time working mom.... and he's intermittently threatening financial stuff. I've offered love/support, etc... but then its eating away at me and I feel I need to give him deadline of end of month to make a decision to get help or not. I tend to be co-dependent/want to save from my traumatic childhood/bipolar mom and have told him he has to be willing and make the decision on his own. I don't want to divorce but I have to keep my self healthy for my kids. Trying to set a time frame for my own sanity, but not sure what best approach is.... an ultimatum forces therapy but not his readiness. Am I supposed to wait indefinitely as he is out of our marriage/home and I'm juggling it alone with kids or say no, I need to move on and need to know by this date what your choice is. I feel it is like playing games guessing his response....

Thank you all... such a nightmare.

Think about this- an ultimatum for "get help" or "divorce me" probably has about a 99% chance of blowing up on you in the worst possible ways. No matter what he chooses, it's probably going to come with retaliation and make your life harder. So why not offer a softer ultimatum like, "If you need more time away that's fine, but let's make a longer term plan to keep the bills paid and the kids fed."

I know he's being unreasonable.  I know he's breaking your heart. So please don't take this advice as me telling you to show him sympathy here or kindness that he doesn't deserve. You must meet him where he's at though to have any chance of an adult conversation that ends productively.

Tell him you care. But don't ask him to come home since he'll feel like you're chasing him and handing over all the power. Just tell him that you guys need to talk about what's best for the kids and see where it leads.

[Cat Familiar]

You’ve gotten some good advice, and I’ll just add my two cents as my husband is very similar in many ways to how you describe yours: people pleaser—everyone who knows him superficially thinks he’s wonderful; tantrums as a youngster; family massively into avoidance; stonewalling tendencies; disconnecting when I’ve needed emotional support; numbing through alcohol and prescription meds.

I will echo others that ultimatums can be counterproductive with personalities such as these, though I totally understand why you want him to seek therapy so that you and your children are emotionally and physically safe.

My husband is so locked up tight that even in therapy I suspect he has never allowed himself to be fully open. He has briefly done individual therapy and we did couples counseling for a year or two which was mostly unproductive. I think that he tries to present himself as someone who has it all together and that everything that has befallen him is due to other people, principally his malignant narcissist father. Certainly there’s truth in that, but until one accepts accountability, this stance is a prescription for eternal victimhood.

In your case, you are the *abuser* in his mind, as he has done nothing for which there is blame. Maddening, I know. I totally get it. When my husband is in one of his *pity party* emotional states, if I’m just in a hurry and I say something abruptly like “What did you do with the insurance bill?” —he might think that I’m being *unkind* and *abusive*.

The best, and only strategy I’ve found that has worked is to fully accept that my husband has a mental illness and is unlikely to ever seek improvement on his own. To do so, involves confronting his own internal demons and that is something undoubtedly too painful and scary for him to contemplate.

[om123]

@Pook075, you are so right... thank you for that reminder.... it is amazing how the behaviors are exactly my own triggers and I need this reminder to pause, think it through and the outcome. Working to do more mediation and yoga to help me with this during this insanely hard time. Thank you so much.

@CatFamiliar thank you as well, it is maddening. We've had very similar experience with marriage therapy hence why I finally said, no, you need to start your own work before we attempt this again as he charms therapist, manipulates feedback, etc.. it isn't from a sincere, loving, let's heal and be honest place.. there was a glimpse or two of what felt like true connection, but then it disappears and the therapist seemed to have no understanding of what I/we were dealing with....

Both - Have you both stayed with your partners even though they haven't gotten help? Have they been diagnosed? How can the be diagnosed without therapy? Is there an alternative to therapy for them? I guess the only way my rational mind and mama bear self feels safe & to stay in this marriage is to know he is actively getting professional help. He says therapy isn't the only way hence off on a mens' retreat, etc... but I feel I need some healthy boundary to know he is getting real help to heal. I appreciate my approach of therapy may not be his exact path as all on our own journey, but I feel in my gut he truly needs professional therapy to get in touch with his deep pain or this cycle will continue.

Thank you!

[Pook075]

@Pook075, you are so right... thank you for that reminder.... it is amazing how the behaviors are exactly my own triggers and I need this reminder to pause, think it through and the outcome. Working to do more mediation and yoga to help me with this during this insanely hard time. Thank you so much.

@CatFamiliar thank you as well, it is maddening. We've had very similar experience with marriage therapy hence why I finally said, no, you need to start your own work before we attempt this again as he charms therapist, manipulates feedback, etc.. it isn't from a sincere, loving, let's heal and be honest place.. there was a glimpse or two of what felt like true connection, but then it disappears and the therapist seemed to have no understanding of what I/we were dealing with....

Both - Have you both stayed with your partners even though they haven't gotten help? Have they been diagnosed? How can the be diagnosed without therapy? Is there an alternative to therapy for them? I guess the only way my rational mind and mama bear self feels safe & to stay in this marriage is to know he is actively getting professional help. He says therapy isn't the only way hence off on a mens' retreat, etc... but I feel I need some healthy boundary to know he is getting real help to heal. I appreciate my approach of therapy may not be his exact path as all on our own journey, but I feel in my gut he truly needs professional therapy to get in touch with his deep pain or this cycle will continue.

Thank you!

For my story, we were married 24 years and separated around 14 months ago.  No diagnosis and since my wife shows more like "quiet BPD", there were some super confusing things over the years but nothing that jumped out and told me that everything would explode one day. 

One day, my wife told me she was leaving out of the blue...no arguments, no talking things out, no nothing.  We hadn't fought in years so this was completely out of nowhere.  And within a few weeks, my wife had become incredibly hostile and mean.  I was completely perplexed, and I was so down that I went to our family doctor for sleep meds.  She knows us well and really pushed me to give details on exactly what was going on, and afterwards said that it was textbook Quiet BPD.

My 25 year old daughter has traditional BPD, and after spending some time on this site I realize that my wife's brother and mom almost surely have it as well.  I get along with both of them but the black/white thinking, the cutting people off completely, the bouts of depression and self esteem issues, it's all there.

I'm currently in the process of divorcing (my state is backlogged six months) but at the same time, I am no longer painted black and we can have normal conversations when my wife wants to.  She mostly avoids me, but if I need her I can reach out and she'll usually respond kindly.  I think she's carrying a lot of guilt and shame over what happened, but at the same time she could never bring herself to being vulnerable and consider therapy. 

I feel sympathy for her and I still love her very much, just not as a wife.  I could never go back to a relationship where I'm not loved the way I love, and I'm at peace with that.

As far as alternatives to getting him diagnosed:

- Dial 9-1-1 when he's a danger to himself or others
- Talk to his doctor or therapist since they wouldn't see this on their own
- Talk to whoever is his current favorite person and tell them you're worried

For therapy, it is useless until your spouse realized there's a problem and sees the need to change.  You can't force it no matter how hard you try.  For example, if I said that I thought you needed to take scuba lessons, would you do it?  Of course not, because there's no reason for you to do that.  How the heck would I know what you 'need'?  That's how your spouse sees it as well, it feels like such a random thing out of nowhere that he wouldn't even consider it.

I hope that helps!

[Cat Familiar]

Have you both stayed with your partners even though they haven't gotten help? Have they been diagnosed? How can the be diagnosed without therapy? Is there an alternative to therapy for them? I guess the only way my rational mind and mama bear self feels safe & to stay in this marriage is to know he is actively getting professional help. He says therapy isn't the only way hence off on a mens' retreat, etc... but I feel I need some healthy boundary to know he is getting real help to heal. I appreciate my approach of therapy may not be his exact path as all on our own journey, but I feel in my gut he truly needs professional therapy to get in touch with his deep pain or this cycle will continue.

I’m still married. I had been married previously to a far more extreme BPD/NPD/ASPD so my current husband seems very laid back in comparison. He had hidden much of his dysfunctional behaviors at the beginning or I would never have set foot down this path—well, maybe that’s not true. I’d been so smitten with him for years, during the time we both were married to other people. We belonged to a group of friends and he was professional, responsible, intelligent, well liked, not to mention extremely handsome. We’d both shared one of those heart stopping moments where you know that if circumstances had been different, we would have been together, though that had been unspoken between us…until later. And then there was a time when we were both single simultaneously.

I thought he’d been well *vetted* since I’d known him for many years and hadn’t heard any untoward stories about him from our group of friends. Yet, as we know, BPD is a disorder of intimacy and often the external world has no idea what intimate partners experience.

Having been though the mill with a thoroughly awful marriage partner, this is nothing like that. Though I must say how extremely disappointed I was to learn how self absorbed, thin skinned, irritable, and cross he can be when he’s in a *mood*.

When we did couple’s counseling, I selected an older woman with a PhD, thinking that I’d need someone sharp and experienced to suss him out, as he could easily schmooze someone with less training. At first he thought that therapy was a prelude to divorce, but over time he realized I wasn’t going anywhere, I just wasn’t happy with how things were. Then he started to say things like, “The whole purpose of this is just for you and her (the psychologist) to beat me up.”

Our communication improved marginally. He was less likely to cut me off when I brought up issues, and I became better at expressing myself in a way that he could hear me. But in sum, this was a tiny improvement.

It wasn’t until a couple of years later when I found this site and simultaneously went back to the psychologist for individual therapy that things began changing for the better.

After a few sessions, she told me that he has a personality disorder, but she wouldn’t specify further, saying that in her field the current thought is that PDs can be fluid. In recollecting our sessions, I remembered that he presented far more like a narcissist, but at home with me he behaved like a borderline when he was dysregulated. In fact, I think he stormed out of two sessions—one with me and one with her privately.

So yes, I got a diagnosis. But if you do a lot of reading here, not only of others’ accounts, but there’s a ton of good information here—you will find that behavioral patterns repeat on a regular basis and that to begin to make things better it’s not important if someone is diagnosed or if you merely are observing *traits*. Take a look at the Tools at the top of this page—that’s a great place to start your journey into BPDland.

I’m very sad to inform you that the way we look at it is that people don’t have BPD, they are BPD. It’s a way their brain is structured from a very young age, often due to abuse, parental neglect, genetics or a combination. In a nutshell, they didn’t learn some early socialization strategies, such as self soothing, being accountable, regulating their emotions, etc.

As much as we’d like them to *get over* BPD, this is who they are, and it’s a disorder of shame, self loathing, victimhood, projection, and broken relationships. Seldom do people with BPD (pwBPD) freely enter into therapy and continue when it gets difficult because of the shame and self loathing they feel and fear. However DBT therapy has proven to help, but it takes a damn long time and a hell of a commitment, and few actually follow through. It was developed by a woman who had BPD (Marsha Lineman) and she designed it as a process of learning those social/emotional skills that hadn’t been acquired in childhood and thereby remedying the deficits.

Now that I’ve burst your bubble about the possibility of a quick fix, there are a lot of things you can learn to make things easier in your life and turn down the volume in your relationship. This is what was a stumbling block for me.

I felt, damn, I’m not the problem. And   now I’ve done it again—another f*ing crazy husband, though this one was never one bit as cray cray as the first!

I was resistant to learning to modify how I communicated…until I started putting some of the skills to work and saw how they defused conflict. Still I was very angry and resentful of having to learn how to be different than my default mode.

I was so cranky and resentful that I actually got suspended twice here. I guess I needed a safe place to act out since I wasn’t doing that in real life.

Fast forward many years and things are mostly OK, but it’s certainly not the relationship I thought it was in the beginning. I have friends with whom I can have a deeper, more authentic relationship. He is less dysregulated since I have largely removed from my behavioral and communication repertoire triggers that can set him off. I still care about him, but more as a friend/relative than as a spouse. But it works. I’m just giving it straight. Your mileage may vary.

[CravingPeace]

I was so cranky and resentful that I actually got suspended twice here. I guess I needed a safe place to act out since I wasn’t doing that in real life.

Fast forward many years and things are mostly OK, but it’s certainly not the relationship I thought it was in the beginning. I have friends with whom I can have a deeper, more authentic relationship. He is less dysregulated since I have largely removed from my behavioral and communication repertoire triggers that can set him off. I still care about him, but more as a friend/relative than as a spouse. But it works. I’m just giving it straight. Your mileage may vary.

This is what I struggle with. When I use JADE and Set everything is diffused and it feels better. Then we have a deep and meaningful conversation and I get lulled into the fact I can maybe have a normal relationship and everything will be ok. Then she does or says something unprovoked or cruel and I start explaining and defending and it all goes bad again. I wonder if using JADE and SET to manage out of situations you can ever really truely feel you are in an emotionally supportive and happy relationship/partnership. So is it worth trying!? It's so very hard. OP I really feel for your situation. You are really going through and trying to work out if you can survive the relationship or if it is best for you. Sadly I don't have the answers.

[Pook075]

Then she does or says something unprovoked or cruel and I start explaining and defending and it all goes bad again.

You said the answer here yourself- don't explain or defend and maybe it won't all go bad again, or at least not to the level of bad that we've all become accustomed to.  Focus on the emotions behind the words and comfort those emotions. 

The words are just words....it's the emotions behind them that are the problem.  Figure out where the emotions are coming from, comfort those emotions, and things don't go from 0-100 in .237 seconds.

[CravingPeace]

You said the answer here yourself- don't explain or defend and maybe it won't all go bad again, or at least not to the level of bad that we've all become accustomed to.  Focus on the emotions behind the words and comfort those emotions. 

The words are just words....it's the emotions behind them that are the problem.  Figure out where the emotions are coming from, comfort those emotions, and things don't go from 0-100 in .237 seconds.

I get it, but its not terribly authentic is it. If I asked her what she was feeling and she said she wasn't feeling anything...It's hard to figure out where the emotions are coming from is she wont talk. So yeah I can just detach let her offend me and say nothing, but I don't think this will ever lead to a fulfilling life/relationship. I guess that is my realization to own.

[Pook075]

I get it, but its not terribly authentic is it. If I asked her what she was feeling and she said she wasn't feeling anything...It's hard to figure out where the emotions are coming from is she wont talk. So yeah I can just detach let her offend me and say nothing, but I don't think this will ever lead to a fulfilling life/relationship. I guess that is my realization to own.

Okay, let's roleplay that out then.  You asked her how she was feeling, and she respond, "I feel nothing." That's a very specific response, what types of feelings would make us feel nothing?

To me, I'd say loneliness, fear, heartbreak, confusion, and an emptiness from not knowing how to move forward.

So what emotions should you give her in that situation?

Love, comfort, and support.

I had so many of these conversations with my ex.  I'd say, "What's wrong" and she'd reply, "I don't know."  Sometimes I'd push further, sometimes I'd leave her alone.  Both approaches were wrong.  What I should have done was wrap my arms around her and say, "I love you."  Then I should have held onto her until the crisis passed.

Sometimes words are enough, but other times require action to actually 'prove it'.  I learned that the hard way.  It's not about how much abuse you can take though, it's really about how much love and sympathy you can give when they need it the most.  Do that and maybe the abuse fades away over time.