My uBPDw is fighting against my work on codependency. Trying to keep my sanity

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My wife and I have been in therapy for over a year together with some independent as well, with the same therapist.

Just over a month ago I think it was I found this place and my therapist started working with me on my codependency. I only realized at that time that my wife is most definitely an uBPD with possible co-occuring conditions. She rages at me and my daughter for small to big things. In the past I might say something that she takes the wrong way and it turns into a 3+ day episode of circular arguments, rages, swearing, etc. You know... Usually I would eventually 'cave' and apologize, say I was wrong (whether I was or not) to stop the insanity. I have admitted fault to so many things I never should have.

The most recent one started about a week ago and has continued still. Short version is she got super elevated about something our 17 1/2 year old daughter wanted to do. I didn't think it was a big deal. She wanted me to make a big deal about it and I stood my ground. I haven't given in but have validated her along the way. It's better then it was but still so tense.

Where we are now is we had a therapy session a few days ago and talked about how I'm working on my codependency piece and some of that isn't going to feel good. I'm trying to be pretty flat during the rages, outbursts and she really hated that. She says I'm being cold, unloving, cruel because she's either swearing and screaming at me or crying for me to 'support her'.

She told me she doesn't want me to do this if this is what it means (me being cold, flat and 'unsupporting' - her definition of supporting is unconditionally agreeing with her, especially when it's so important that she's gotten to the dysregulated state otherwise I'm not a loving, God believing husband). Because of the years of her getting enraged and any possible comment, look or situation I can't just go along with something she's angry again, especially with our daughter. She's targeting her a lot as she's growing into adulthood. My wife says she's rational so why wouldn't I just agree with her? Do I think she's crazy she asked? I don't know what to say because I think while she can be rational there's a high likelihood she isn't being rational and is over-reacting.

She asked me last night if I would choose therapy/our therapist over her. I said I'm not going to stop therapy and I would be really concerned if she really didn't want me to continue therapy. She started on about how it's making us further apart, not bringing us together and we just need to go back to how I was before (agreeing with her and giving in)

She said those are the 2 things weighing on her now - unconditional support and not willing to say I would choose her over our therapist. She's saying if we go through another fight like this we won't make it.

With all this, I'm having problems trusting my feelings. At the beginning I was sure I was doing the right thing but now it's going on so long I question - am I doing the right thing or am I just being stubborn?

[campbembpd]

My wife and I have been in therapy for over a year together with some independent as well, with the same therapist.

Just over a month ago I think it was I found this place and my therapist started working with me on my codependency. I only realized at that time that my wife is most definitely an uBPD with possible co-occuring conditions. She rages at me and my daughter for small to big things. In the past I might say something that she takes the wrong way and it turns into a 3+ day episode of circular arguments, rages, swearing, etc. You know... Usually I would eventually 'cave' and apologize, say I was wrong (whether I was or not) to stop the insanity. I have admitted fault to so many things I never should have.

The most recent one started about a week ago and has continued still. Short version is she got super elevated about something our 17 1/2 year old daughter wanted to do. I didn't think it was a big deal. She wanted me to make a big deal about it and I stood my ground. I haven't given in but have validated her along the way. It's better then it was but still so tense.

Where we are now is we had a therapy session a few days ago and talked about how I'm working on my codependency piece and some of that isn't going to feel good. I'm trying to be pretty flat during the rages, outbursts and she really hated that. She says I'm being cold, unloving, cruel because she's either swearing and screaming at me or crying for me to 'support her'.

She told me she doesn't want me to do this if this is what it means (me being cold, flat and 'unsupporting' - her definition of supporting is unconditionally agreeing with her, especially when it's so important that she's gotten to the dysregulated state otherwise I'm not a loving, God believing husband). Because of the years of her getting enraged and any possible comment, look or situation I can't just go along with something she's angry again, especially with our daughter. She's targeting her a lot as she's growing into adulthood. My wife says she's rational so why wouldn't I just agree with her? Do I think she's crazy she asked? I don't know what to say because I think while she can be rational there's a high likelihood she isn't being rational and is over-reacting.

She asked me last night if I would choose therapy/our therapist over her. I said I'm not going to stop therapy and I would be really concerned if she really didn't want me to continue therapy. She started on about how it's making us further apart, not bringing us together and we just need to go back to how I was before (agreeing with her and giving in)

She said those are the 2 things weighing on her now - unconditional support and not willing to say I would choose her over our therapist. She's saying if we go through another fight like this we won't make it.

With all this, I'm having problems trusting my feelings. At the beginning I was sure I was doing the right thing but now it's going on so long I question - am I doing the right thing or am I just being stubborn?

[SinisterComplex]

At the end of the day you have to make the decisions and you have to be comfortable with those decisions. I cannot tell you if what you are doing is right and no one else can either. Only you can make that determination. What I will say is that do what you feel and think is right and do it with conviction. This is a scenario where being black and white isn't a bad thing...it is a good thing. What I mean is you have to be decisive. If you constantly stay stuck in the grey area flip flopping like a pancake and waffling nothing gets accomplished and more BS  mucks everything up. Make a decision, stick to it, believe in it and let the chips lie where they may. That is all you can do. It is impossible to please everyone so make the best decision you can for yourself and let the rest of the noise be just that...noise. Do not play the what if game that just leads to more inaction and more anxiety.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[EyesUp]

@OP

One litmus test is: How would you feel if the roles were reversed?

If your wife felt she was making progress in therapy, and you were convinced that the therapist or the experience of therapy was not good for your wife, or you, or the relationship (pick one), how would you approach it?

Do you feel like it's possible to have a safe / fair / rational conversation with your wife about this?

Here's another litmus test: What would happen if you shared what you posted here with your T?  What would your T say if you explicitly asked to focus your individual therapy on protecting your wife and preserving your marriage?

Last thought for now... Would your wife agree that a marriage requires mutual support, and some give and take?  Would she agree to give you some time at this point?  i.e., while you're working on codependency, is there a way to explore some soft boundaries?

[Pook075]

Things are bad right now because you've made some boundaries about how you're treated, and your wife doesn't like it.  In fact, she's acting like a child and throwing temper tantrums.  So how do you prioritize your wife/marriage when she's asking you to stop doing the things that will keep you in the marriage?

However, choosing your wife does not mean putting up with abuse or always agreeing with her.  It means finding a path to get past all the negative stuff DESPITE how she's acting.  And hear me here, you can only answer for your participation in that matter....you answer for you, she answers for her.

You're in this position because your wife has gone so long without being "checked" on her behavior that she believes she should be in total control and have total power on family dynamics.  That's what has wrecked your marriage though and something has to change.  Being married for the sake of being married is not enough; you should be married because you're happy and you love spending time with your wife.

To keep your sanity, be true to yourself and stop allowing your moral compass to be challenged.  It sounds like you need better boundaries when she's in that type of mood.  You're right not to argue back but at the same time, you're wrong for just taking her abuse as well.  Tell her that you love her and want to talk things out, but you won't be involved when she's treating you that way.  Then walk away...every time...until she respects your boundary or things go the opposite direction.

The wrong way to handle this- "You're crazy and I'm not listening to this anymore."

The right way to handle this- "I love you but I'm walking away until we can calm down." 

(by 'we', I mean her...but you want to try to avoid blaming her because she can't see it)

I don't want to sugarcoat things here, it's possible this doesn't work out.  But if you want to give it the best possible chance of success, you need to break the cycle of abuse and make it an absolute in your life.  When she gets unstable, try to talk it out calmly and if that fails, walk away.  When she blows up on your daughter...same thing.  Make the effort, make it known you want to talk it out in a productive manner, and make it known that you love her and support her.  When all that fails though, you walk away until she's calmed down.

Do that every time your moral compass is challenged; about family, about therapy, etc.  You're in control of you and she doesn't get to cross certain lines, certain boundaries.  Make that well known and transparent, every time.  But also try to convey that with love and compassion.

Good luck- it's a horrible position and most of us got it wrong.  I hope everything works out for the best.

[ForeverDad]

I want to add a factoid here.  Your daughter is months away from becoming an adult.  There are no other children?  Then if/when you decide your marriage has failed, likely family court would not issue a temp order detailing custody or parenting schedule.  Divorce would be much less complicated, dealing with just ownership and financial matters.  Just so you have everything in perspective.

[campbembpd]

I want to add a factoid here.  Your daughter is months away from becoming an adult.  There are no other children?  Then if/when you decide your marriage has failed, likely family court would not issue a temp order detailing custody or parenting schedule.  Divorce would be much less complicated, dealing with just ownership and financial matters.  Just so you have everything in perspective.

The fact that my daughter is almost 18 does make that part easier if we were to separate. There is one more wrinkle which is we have a 20 year old special needs son that we have joint guardianship over. In her threats to leave she has said "daughter will go with you and son will live with me". I don't know how those decisions are made but I don't think she would be reasonable about it to keep the kids, albeit adults, to stay together. She has not split so much on him but is very short tempered with him and lashes out at things he does due to his disabilities where I have to intervene. So I really don't want him living with her. In addition, I am absolutely terrified of the lies, and exaggerations she will say to others including my son. She already has a huge propensity to either exaggerate or outright lie about situations (gaslight) but in her mind they are the truth. 

Overall things aren't getting much better. Last night she was re-escalated and there was a lot of tension so I said I'm going for a 30 minute walk. She snapped at me asking 'why did I need to go for a walk?" I just need to clear my head and let things calm down a bit. "But we aren't fighting" she said. I backed down and said no I don't want to fight, it seemed like there was tension and you weren't happy so I thought I'd go for a walk but I'm happy to stay. After a minute she said no I htink 30 minutes would be good - you should go for a walk.

Later that night she escalated asking why I would leave when I know she's upset? I re-affirmed saying I wasn't leaving, just taking a short break then coming back. She said me leaving in the middle of a fight won't work for her, that I know her by now and know that leaving in the middle doesn't help, she said it makes things worse. She said outright it makes her feel like I'm abandoning her and leaving her. I tried to re-assure that I'm not leaving her but there are times when I need for me time to let us cool down. She said that won't work for her and basically said that if I leave when we're fighting then that's going to make things worse.

She went into how I used to think she walked on the moon and would do ANYTHING for her. She said I don't love her anymore, I'm treating her differently and she can tell I'm not in love with her. I'm being egotistical and putting my needs ahead of hers. She said she's given in to me for so many years so why can't I give into her when she needs me... I don't see that. I've made a lot of mistakes, true I won't say I'm perfect, far from. She continued to say how I'm not following God and honoring my wife and I should be unconditionally loving to her and give her what she needs, especially when she's clearly in an emotional state and telling me what she needs from me (agreement, or apologies for something I did or didn't do). Makes me confused.   

[Notwendy]

This is an expected response to you changing your behavior. As your T probably explained, the two of you are in balance. As a co-dependent, you are an emotional caretaker. This is dysfunctional but for your wife, it serves the purpose of managing her feelings for her, and taking on responsibility for them- when it is actually her job to deal with her own feelings.

We think of being helpful and caretaking as "being the better person" but when this was reframed as self serving ( managing our own fear and discomfort around them being upset) and taking away their opportunity to gain better emotional management skills- actually keeping them from gaining that ability- it's not seen as self sacrificing noble behavior-but actually not being good to them.

We can not change another person, only ourselves, but changing your behavior changes the dynamics between you and your wife. Initially, she will feel more emotional discomfort. From her perspective- you aren't doing "your" job, but it isn't your job- it's actually hers but she's been used to you doing it. Her first response is to escalate and get you back to doing what she thinks is your job.

If you go back to being co-dependent, nothing will change and the two of you will resume your roles. However, if you hold steady to your boundaries - this leaves the possibility that she will adjust and learn to manage her feelings better- she still has BPD but may adjust some. Or she won't adjust and the two of you won't feel that "fit". It's a risk but a risk for the possible better and better for the two of you to have less of this dynamic.

There's another benefit- your children. You are a primary role model for them. If you change your co-dependent behaviors and learn to have better boundaries and to stand up for yourself- you will role model this behavior for them.

[once removed]

She said me leaving in the middle of a fight won't work for her, that I know her by now and know that leaving in the middle doesn't help, she said it makes things worse. She said outright it makes her feel like I'm abandoning her and leaving her. I tried to re-assure that I'm not leaving her but there are times when I need for me time to let us cool down. She said that won't work for her and basically said that if I leave when we're fighting then that's going to make things worse.

Would your wife agree that a marriage requires mutual support, and some give and take?  Would she agree to give you some time at this point?  i.e., while you're working on codependency, is there a way to explore some soft boundaries?

has any of this been explored in therapy? its a great place to work on solutions together, and with the feedback of a disinterested party.

[campbembpd]

has any of this been explored in therapy? its a great place to work on solutions together, and with the feedback of a disinterested party.

Yes, one of the tools the therapist said to us was to take cooling off periods. If I feel like I’m shutting down or things are getting heated then let’s take a break and come back. It think once it became real and I did it she really didn’t like it.

[Notwendy]

This is good advice. There is an acronym for this "HALT" if someone is hungry, angry, lonely, tired- this is your signal to take a cooling off period and take care of your feelings. Because when someone is in HALT- they are more likely to loose their cool and add to the drama.

As I explained above- your changing your own co-dependent behavior is going to make you BOTH uncomfortable. Because even if it causes issues for you, it serves a purpose for you both. It manages her feelings but what it actually does is manage yours. It manages your feelings of fear and discomfort when your wife is agitated and upset with you.

That's the real issue with co-dependent behavior- it's your own discomfort- and you are gaining better emotional regulation skills. That's the "match". You don't have BPD, but each of you is looking to the other for emotional regulation and each of you need to get better at it. Will your wife? That's up to her. Why is the T choosing to work with you on this- because you are the only one who can manage your own emotions and get better at that. Managing your wife's emotions doesn't help her get better at it and it doesn't help you get better at it either.

What your T advised you to do- the cooling off period- is sound advice- but it then gives you space to deal with your own feelings. So yes, neither of you will feel comfortable with this at first- but with better skills you will manage better.

[livednlearned]

Yes, one of the tools the therapist said to us was to take cooling off periods. If I feel like I’m shutting down or things are getting heated then let’s take a break and come back. It think once it became real and I did it she really didn’t like it.

It might come down to details. I agree with once removed -- maybe you can sort out some of the details in therapy.

Do you get the sense your T knows your wife has BPD?

It sounds like you have good direction for what to do when you're flooded, but perhaps your wife needs some help figuring out what to do with her emotions, and the therapist can help her with that (assuming she's aware there are BPD traits).

Your wife may think that fighting is a way to show you care. Going silent or walking away = rejection and abandonment in BPD logic. Staying to fight = he cares.

It's possible your wife has enough self-control to remain calm if failing to do so means being alone.

These are new neural pathways for both of you. It will take time and practice and tweaking to get accustomed to a new normal.

[zondolit]

If you have it in you (I usually did/do not), you take the job and remain firm in this decision while showing curiosity in how your wife feels and believes she is impacted.

[campbembpd]

It might come down to details. I agree with once removed -- maybe you can sort out some of the details in therapy.

Do you get the sense your T knows your wife has BPD?

It sounds like you have good direction for what to do when you're flooded, but perhaps your wife needs some help figuring out what to do with her emotions, and the therapist can help her with that (assuming she's aware there are BPD traits).

Your wife may think that fighting is a way to show you care. Going silent or walking away = rejection and abandonment in BPD logic. Staying to fight = he cares.

It's possible your wife has enough self-control to remain calm if failing to do so means being alone.

These are new neural pathways for both of you. It will take time and practice and tweaking to get accustomed to a new normal.

Yes, the therapist was the first one to use the term 'borderline traits' to describe the behaviors. That sent me down the rabbit hole of some books and eventually here. It all clicked in and matched my situation so well.

We've been in therapy for a year and he has worked with her on coping mechanisms but she doesn't seem to be using them and what I've observed is they might work if she's less then a 3 or 4 out of 10 but so often she is straight to an 7-10/10 that the coping mechanisms wouldn't work if she did do them but at that point it doesn't seem likely she will be rational to stop and do that. 

100%. she has said that when I don't fight she feels like I don't care. She says I should have passion and want to fight for her. So when I'm maintaining a neutral/flat composure she told me I just don't love her anymore. And same when I walk away. She verbalized it saying when I walk away / take a break she feels like I'm abandoning her.

[kells76]

Yes, the therapist was the first one to use the term 'borderline traits' to describe the behaviors. That sent me down the rabbit hole of some books and eventually here. It all clicked in and matched my situation so well.

Can you refresh my memory -- did he mention that to her as well, or just to you?

We've been in therapy for a year and he has worked with her on coping mechanisms but she doesn't seem to be using them and what I've observed is they might work if she's less then a 3 or 4 out of 10 but so often she is straight to an 7-10/10 that the coping mechanisms wouldn't work if she did do them but at that point it doesn't seem likely she will be rational to stop and do that. 

Do you think your W would agree that she has some success with coping tools when she's at a 3 to 4, but not when she's at a 7 to 10?

100%. she has said that when I don't fight she feels like I don't care. She says I should have passion and want to fight for her. So when I'm maintaining a neutral/flat composure she told me I just don't love her anymore. And same when I walk away. She verbalized it saying when I walk away / take a break she feels like I'm abandoning her.

This seems like an area where you and your W may be able to find common ground in therapy.

I'm guessing that it's not like you want her to feel abandoned? That is -- you would like it if she didn't feel abandoned?

And she doesn't want to feel abandoned?

So you both probably disagree on how that looks in practice (i.e., her: "the way I won't feel abandoned is if you never take a break and always fight with me"  ), but in principle, would you say that the two of you agree that it'd be nice if she felt less alone/abandoned?

Can you bring that to the T and say -- here is an area where we have agreement in principle, we have this shared value, but we struggle with what that looks like in practice?

...

You may have tried that approach already, so if it was a dead end, my apologies for the suggestion.

Just looking for areas where you can find common ground to build from -- and, an additional plus might be, if you can have agreement in principle but disagree in practice, and then you bring that to your session, that sheds light on the conflict to the T so he can have a fuller understanding of the BPD dynamics at play with your W.

[livednlearned]

We've been in therapy for a year and he has worked with her on coping mechanisms but she doesn't seem to be using them and what I've observed is they might work if she's less then a 3 or 4 out of 10 but so often she is straight to an 7-10/10 that the coping mechanisms wouldn't work if she did do them but at that point it doesn't seem likely she will be rational to stop and do that.

I so understand this.

My stepdaughter (BPD traits) can regulate using skills she's learned in therapy for anxiety when she's at a 3-4, but above a 5 and it's a dumpster fire. One time she ran after my car as I was backing out of the garage, frantically trying to open the passenger door so she wouldn't be left home alone. I'm not her favorite person -- I'll do in a pinch but I'm second rung in the cling ring, so to be that frantic over me leaving signaled how badly she was struggling with her own emotions.

To kells76 point, it seems like the T could add a piece to the switcheroo where you leave instead of listen to abuse -- so your wife has a lifeline. She's mixed up about abuse = love (and very mixed up about what love looks like) and that's not your load to lift. It's good that you have a T recommending that you walk away when you feel flooded, or to protect yourself.

How you two connect or feel about each other separate from this new behavior probably matters for what comes next. Would she listen to a pre-recorded message, or hold something that helps her stay connected to you?

To be clear, my ex (BPD) husband was quite destructive when he was activated and we didn't have tender cycles where he could reflect on what happened -- if I gave him something to help him think positively about our marriage or me when I left, he would've destroyed it  

Whereas with SD26, her BPD traits are more ... vulnerable. And as long as her issues were cast as anxiety, she was willing to try things.

How would you describe your wife in terms of her willingness to accommodate changes in your marriage?

My marriage didn't make it but my relationship with SD26 is sustainable. It's not a marriage so there are differences, and the differences are important. But if I had to reflect why our relationship works it's because I treat my values as non-negotiable, even when I'm dying to negotiate them to get out of a tight spot with her.

When you need to take a break and go for a walk, stick to the plan. Your wife isn't going to like it because she's convinced you will sacrifice what matters to you in order to help her self-soothe, and that's not sustainable. It's also not healthy for her because she knows on some level that her emotional lability and maturity are problematic -- if those emotions are in charge then everyone's in trouble.

Untreated pwBPD often want the thing they know on some level isn't best for them. We have to sacrifice some peace in order to provide the boundaries that help anchor the relationship so it's viable in the long term.