Today is going differently…

[thankful person]

First of all, thank you all for your continued support, Not Wendy and Salty Dog especially have spent so long trying to help and advise me. I do appreciate it and I’m really trying to get it right especially for my children. I’d appreciate any comments about what I’ve got right or wrong today.

Today dbpdw is sick with a bad cold which I knew. It’s my last day at school this term. I went in to wake her and the kids (all 3 sleep in the bed with her) as usual after getting myself ready. The past couple of days she has waved me away saying, “I’ll deal with them” which is fine and I’ve gone off to work. Today she refused to say what she wanted me to do, just “I don’t know” so I said “I’ll come back in a bit”. She could have texted saying, “leave us alone”. The girls have nursery but it doesn’t matter what time they get there. Everyone has been unwell and the mornings are dark like the night atm in England. So I went back after 15 mins. Woke w again and again she said she didn’t know what to do. So I said, “I’ll just leave you”. Then she starts complaining that she’ll have to get the kids all ready on her own again, at this point the girls woke up so I said to them to come and get ready and have breakfast downstairs. I asked if she wanted me to get them to nursery and she ignored me.

W came down verbally attacking me, “You’re so selfish for waking me up twice, you know I’m unwell and all you can think of is work!” I went to get baby ready and she was like, “leave him alone!” I offered her a coffee, again offered to get girls to nursery, she’s just raising her voice, “You just want to get to work, it’s all you care about, it’s all you have gone on about since you came in.” I said, “yes I care about our finances and I need to do this last day at school”. “All you care about is WORK!” She is again raising her voice and I asked to lower her voice but she refused. I said, “if you don’t want any help and you keep on about work then I’m going”. And she’s like, “WORK WORK WORK!” So I said goodbye to the kids then she’s like, “baby’s not even ready” and I offered to get him ready but she said no so I left.

She rang within one minute of me getting in the car. I answered and she’s being verbally abusive again raising her voice at me. I told her that I was feeling uncomfortable and I need to end the call and calm my breathing and heart rate and reminded her I have high blood pressure and have been warned about stress. I hung up and she called and called non stop whether I declined or not, then eventually I picked up to give her a chance to talk calmly but she just wanted to attack and when I was silent to attack me for not speaking as I had nothing to say to her at this point. In the end I found I can’t turn down the volume when the phone rings in my car so I told her I would have to block her number and I pulled over and did this.

It was lovely, I listened to some music and calmed down. I tried to ring her about ten minutes later. She was very short with me asking why I was calling and I said, “I thought you wanted to talk but if not I’ll end the call” and she didn’t want to talk so I did “yeah hang up like you always do” she said (which was funny considering I’ve not done this for years except twice in the past week). I breathed a huge sigh of relief and I’m glad this extinction burst is starting right at the end of term so I’m not just leaving it for next term.

I texted her earlier and again she was very short and then didn’t reply. I’ve got a few breaks today because kids are away but I haven’t told her that. It’s nearly my usual lunch time when I usually ring her. I am intending to respond with the same, “I feel stressed when you speak to me like this, I will end the call if you continue and if you keep ringing me I will block your number.” I know I may be getting some of the words wrong and I’m again feeling very down at how I don’t seem to be doing very well with the process.

Thank you again, I might update if anything interesting happens but I expect it will be more of the same.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thankful person]

Surprise! I wonder if I did something right this morning because I just rang my wife and it went fine, she was in a much better mood and we just chatted like nothing had happened.

[Notwendy]

More likely- these moods have nothing to do with you. I think there's a misunderstanding that there's somehow a way we can control another person's feelings and behavior by something we do on our part- so if she's in a good mood- you must have done something right and vice versa.

There's this illusion as she might blame you but that is projection. A more likely explanation is that- you are the canvas she "paints" her feelings on and then she sees her feelings reflected as coming from you.

She's in a good mood because she let out all her feelings on to you. It's like a little kid who eats too many sweets, gets a stomach ache, and then throws up. After the child throws up- they feel fine as if nothing happened. You are left to clean up the mess but the child is fine.

I don't think this is different- it's a typical pattern. Kids want attention. If a parent is on the phone, they act up to get attention back to them. They don't like it when Mommy goes to work- they want Mommy to stay home and play with them. They don't think about things like the bills to pay or understand why Mommy needs to leave for work. They will understand one day when they grow up.

Your wife thinks what she thinks, feels what she feels, and wants what she wants- and expresses that to you. What you do or say won't change how she thinks or feels. The tools on this board are for you. What you did "right" was to give yourself some space to calm down. This is self care. It helped you to feel better and also be less emotionally reactive to your wife. This helps with the drama but it doesn't change her BPD.

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

   Thanks for sharing, I will compare and contrast how I would handle a similar type situation with my wife on implementing a boundary on your wife's behavior.


Today dbpdw is sick with a bad cold which I knew. It’s my last day at school this term. I went in to wake her and the kids (all 3 sleep in the bed with her) as usual after getting myself ready. The past couple of days she has waved me away saying, “I’ll deal with them” which is fine and I’ve gone off to work. Today she refused to say what she wanted me to do, just “I don’t know” so I said “I’ll come back in a bit”. She could have texted saying, “leave us alone”. The girls have nursery but it doesn’t matter what time they get there. Everyone has been unwell and the mornings are dark like the night atm in England. So I went back after 15 mins. Woke w again and again she said she didn’t know what to do. So I said, “I’ll just leave you”. Then she starts complaining that she’ll have to get the kids all ready on her own again, at this point the girls woke up so I said to them to come and get ready and have breakfast downstairs. I asked if she wanted me to get them to nursery and she ignored me.

Since you indicated that your wife was not feeling well. From what you described this is probably the way I would have handled the situation, initially.  Please don't feel bad that she was a little short with you, as that is her nature.  I do know if I am not feeling well, I too would complain, so give her some grace on this especially as she did not yell/screech at you but ignored you (perhaps she fell back asleep), but did a complaint being mindful that she does not know the communication techniques that you do, give her some grace on this.  To me that would not be a battle worth fighting at this point in her recovery, as you haven't even gotten to the starting line (therapy of any kind).

...that said, this was her pre-dysregulated state, perhaps a pre-trigger is how I define it with my wife where she starts to become annoyed with me, try to memorize how her mood starts to shift to anticipate the next angry outburst...  perhaps learn how to get her to this 'prel-triggered' state, I only found out about this while I was reviewing a recording of an incident I had about a year ago with my wife to even figure out the pre-triggering event that would shift my wife's emotional regulation.  It is so subtle, one cannot know about it if they are in normal conversation - now that I know what to look out for, I immediately change how I handle her as soon as I detect it - exhausting I know, but it keeps things a lot more regulated around the home.


W came down verbally attacking me, “You’re so selfish for waking me up twice, you know I’m unwell and all you can think of is work!” I went to get baby ready and she was like, “leave him alone!” I offered her a coffee, again offered to get girls to nursery, she’s just raising her voice, “You just want to get to work, it’s all you care about, it’s all you have gone on about since you came in.” I said, “yes I care about our finances and I need to do this last day at school”. “All you care about is WORK!” She is again raising her voice and I asked to lower her voice but she refused. I said, “if you don’t want any help and you keep on about work then I’m going”. And she’s like, “WORK WORK WORK!” So I said goodbye to the kids then she’s like, “baby’s not even ready” and I offered to get him ready but she said no so I left.

Again, I feel that you handled this well, you were cool and calm, and clearly articulated your desire to make sure that you have stable finances.  You cannot control your wife's behavior.  From what I can tell she was still regulated on the verge of being dysregulated, since she was able to articulate her feelings, even though it was not an all out screeching/yelling. 


She rang within one minute of me getting in the car. I answered and she’s being verbally abusive again raising her voice at me. I told her that I was feeling uncomfortable and I need to end the call and calm my breathing and heart rate and reminded her I have high blood pressure and have been warned about stress. I hung up and she called and called non stop whether I declined or not, then eventually I picked up to give her a chance to talk calmly but she just wanted to attack and when I was silent to attack me for not speaking as I had nothing to say to her at this point. In the end I found I can’t turn down the volume when the phone rings in my car so I told her I would have to block her number and I pulled over and did this.

This is where your wife becomes dysregulated.  The trigger, perhaps you leaving the home, or something else.  Again, you did the right thing, you set a boundary, and then you enforced it.  I am proud that you did this, this is exactly how I would handle this under similar circumstances.  The only difference would have been I would have powered down my phone until I got to work.


It was lovely, I listened to some music and calmed down. I tried to ring her about ten minutes later. She was very short with me asking why I was calling and I said, “I thought you wanted to talk but if not I’ll end the call” and she didn’t want to talk so I did “yeah hang up like you always do” she said (which was funny considering I’ve not done this for years except twice in the past week). I breathed a huge sigh of relief and I’m glad this extinction burst is starting right at the end of term so I’m not just leaving it for next term.

Again, you did the right thing, you used a coping mechanism as a form of self-care.  The only difference is that I would give her a bit more than ten minutes, figure out how long it takes for her to go back to baseline, and then add ten minutes to it.  This will be through trial and error, this is an excellent start at implementing and then enforcing a boundary.


I texted her earlier and again she was very short and then didn’t reply. I’ve got a few breaks today because kids are away but I haven’t told her that. It’s nearly my usual lunch time when I usually ring her. I am intending to respond with the same, “I feel stressed when you speak to me like this, I will end the call if you continue and if you keep ringing me I will block your number.” I know I may be getting some of the words wrong and I’m again feeling very down at how I don’t seem to be doing very well with the process.

On the contrary, you did not do any 'wrong words', it is very tough to set and implement a boundary, especially with the pushback (extinction burst) as it will be very scary.  She behaved exactly as I thought she would from your description.  Be prepared to get more pushback with similar conversational dynamics that you are having with your wife in the coming days.  For my wife, she would do this for several days, for up to a week (trial and error observations, perhaps keep a journal on this).  See how long it is before your wife stops being verbally abusive towards you when you threaten the consequence of not talking to her when she starts to raise her voice to you.  Give her a warning, while she is still regulated, and then immediately follow through with enforcing your boundary.  I know it sounds mean to her, but she will not learn otherwise.

Surprise! I wonder if I did something right this morning because I just rang my wife and it went fine, she was in a much better mood and we just chatted like nothing had happened.

The  boundary worked!  Congratulations!    Learn how long it took her to get to this point, and use this as your guide how to handle future boundary violations, and adjust accordingly, taking note of the type of stress she is under (feeling ill in this case), with time you get a better idea on how long to wait before you re-engage her.

I think you did an excellent job of implementing this boundary.  Now that you have done this, be firm and consistently apply this, otherwise you will lose the benefit of setting this boundary.

Take care with self care.

SD

[thankful person]

Not Wendy and Salty Dog, thanks for the feedback. I do forget that sometimes my wife’s moods have nothing or little to do with me. I’m glad how I handled it this morning because it sets a precedent for the new term on which I can only improve. I’m glad I left home when I did, and next time I will turn off my phone for the journey and also increase the amount of time until we speak. In fact this is something I’ve been wanting to address, how often we talk during my work days (it has become every journey and every break) but it’s difficult when my wife has no friends (not for want of trying) and no job and barely talks to her own family either.

[SaltyDawg]

Not Wendy and Salty Dog, thanks for the feedback. I do forget that sometimes my wife’s moods have nothing or little to do with me. I’m glad how I handled it this morning because it sets a precedent for the new term on which I can only improve. I’m glad I left home when I did, and next time I will turn off my phone for the journey and also increase the amount of time until we speak. In fact this is something I’ve been wanting to address, how often we talk during my work days (it has become every journey and every break) but it’s difficult when my wife has no friends (not for want of trying) and no job and barely talks to her own family either.

You're welcome.  I think you did an excellent job based on what you described. 

Here are a couple of things I left out (note to moderators:  the lack of editing is very difficult, I wish I could have editing turned on for my account)

1.  Initially your wife may be compliant, like yesterday.  However, there is a possibility, after a week or so, she may push back even harder with the new boundary (the real extinction burst) - if and when this happens you will find it to be quite devastating emotionally - just think of it as growing pains so the cliche of 'no pain, no gain' is very appropriate from an emotional context here.

The alternative, is that she will revert to a state of love bombing, if she does, this will be short lived in an attempt to work around your boundaries with sweetness instead of rage.

Or there could be a combination of both.

2.  Whenever you enforce your boundary, communicate explicitly, I recommend text, as it can be one-way.  That it is your intention to return later on that day, once things have calmed down, and her actions will be determined by her actions or inactions.  The worst thing you can do with a borderline is to abandon them without the reassurance that you will return once her baseline of good or acceptable behavior returns and is observed.  My former dBPD-T would get herself so worked up after her husband didn't communicate with her for about half an hour, she would become dysregulated for 2-3 days (this happened to her once per week), my wife, did that early on in my relationship with me as well (she did this about once per month, each borderline is different), even though I was able to condition her (with my job) so she wouldn't loose it when she didn't hear from me. 

Considering the number of times your wife calls/texts with you, I suspect this would be an issue for her.  From the sounds of it, you have already established some boundaries around working hours, so you should be able to modify this (slowly) so the excessive number of calls throughout the day is reduced to something you find manageable.  To me a maximum number of normal  calls, to me, would be when you arrive at work, and when you are leaving work, and perhaps one call/text in between.  What are your thoughts on this.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[thankful person]

The problem with the phone calls is that my wife wants to be on the line with me the entire time I’m available, so all the time I’m driving and during my break (I don’t go to the staff room but that’s something I’ve often avoided in schools anyway). Sometimes she’s busy with the kids but not usually too busy to ring me. She then gets annoyed if I ask small talk questions like, “how’s your day going?” “What have you been up to today?” etc. But gets angry if I don’t talk. She knows that I like listening to my music on Alexa in the car and it annoys her that I’m such a big music fan. She doesn’t know I’m *still * listening to stop caretaking audiobook on repeat, but she still feels jealous of my time in the car.

These are the boundaries and issues I shall be working on during the Christmas “break” anyway:

(1) Having a shower whenever I want (so long as it’s not wildly inconvenient for her). This has been ongoing for a couple of years, the worst that usually happens now is her texting me her annoyance as I tend to do it once she’s in bed with the kids. She claims to never get a chance to have a shower but actually she can’t be bothered and would rather I didn’t (it seems she doesn’t like me feeling good about myself).

(2) Video calling my parents with the kids. My wife still gets annoyed with this (again same thing that’s been going on for years now). She either gets annoyed if I do it during our precious time together, or if I do it when she’s not around. Today it was me and the girls while she had baby nap with her in the next room. She sent a few annoyed texts but that was all.

(3) Although it’s the break I will still be working teaching some students at their homes and online. I need to arrange with my wife when good times are to do this. This is fair enough but unfortunately it can’t just be sorted in one discussion because then I have to tweak the plans to please everyone. I think you understand that I need to work, especially as I get paid termly at the beginning, and it’s the end of term. So the accusations are that I always go on about work, it’s all I care about etc. and that I always ruin everything by going to work. Once plans have been made she gets annoyed if I remind her I’m working and she gets annoyed if I don’t remind her and she also will entirely deny that she agreed Tuesday morning would be a good time to work etc.

So actually, all of these things have been going on for years. I focus on not walking on eggshells, doing what I need to do to look after myself, retain a good relationship with my parents and work to support the family (and pay for her Christmas present guitar she chose which was more expensive than I wanted it to be). I aim to never apologise for these things or ask permission. Alongside the not walking on eggshells is handling my wife’s responses. Mostly she has been quite under control recently, but she is very sick (pretty sure we saw a faint line on the covid test), which will make everything so much harder, and we may have to cancel some of our family outings etc depending how everyone is. At least I don’t need to worry about her complaining about the Christmas gifts I got her as she’s only getting the guitar and a hair product she bought herself (I really hope she knows this ).

Any further thoughts or advice welcome. I will bear in mind what not Wendy has pointed out, no matter what I do or don’t do, dbpdw will still be dbpd (even though she thinks she’s cured). Maybe I will never be able to do these things without a reaction, but I count it as a success when there’s no shouting or screeching and the children don’t have to be aware of anything bad going on between us.

[zondolit]

For years, I was so relieved when things were "normal" between my husband and me. I readily tried to forget the bad parts. My husband was so good at making things seem normal and happy (so much so I doubted the bad things had even happened--how could they have?) and I played along. Then one day I changed. I did something different. My husband dysregulated. Then he turned into happy husband. This time I did not join him in happyland. I said, "I will not normalize what is not normal." I allowed myself to still be upset, mad, frustrated. I was NOT good. Things were NOT normal. It was hard, yet a breath of fresh air.

[SaltyDawg]

The problem with the phone calls is that my wife wants to be on the line with me the entire time I’m available, so all the time I’m driving and during my break (I don’t go to the staff room but that’s something I’ve often avoided in schools anyway). Sometimes she’s busy with the kids but not usually too busy to ring me. She then gets annoyed if I ask small talk questions like, “how’s your day going?” “What have you been up to today?” etc. But gets angry if I don’t talk. She knows that I like listening to my music on Alexa in the car and it annoys her that I’m such a big music fan. She doesn’t know I’m *still * listening to stop caretaking audiobook on repeat, but she still feels jealous of my time in the car.

I agree with you, that is too much time, and a boundary ought to be set, as everyone needs 'alone' time otherwise it can become overwhelming, this amount is different for each person. 

You can proceed one of two ways, one is to gently 'ween' her off you slowly for her conversation on being together; alternatively, you could do it all at once by stating I would like to talk when we are face to face, and limit the time of talking while I am driving as I don't want to get into an accident (I have used this excuse many times, and have actually unintentionally struck a curb with my tyre when having that very conversation while in motion with both of us in the car, so she saw my point, and agreed to this boundary readily instead of having a repair bill to contend with, or OCPD miserly spending override her need for conversation while the vehicle was in motion).

I've also been on the receiving end of the small talk thing, she wants meaningful deep conversation, and when I give it to her, she doesn't want it.  Last christmas I gave her 450 conversation cards, we have used less than a hundred, even though our therapists recommended using them after she found out that I had given them to her - it is just one of those paradoxes of being with a borderline. 


These are the boundaries and issues I shall be working on during the Christmas “break” anyway:

Sounds like a good plan.  Whatever you decide to do, make sure you are consistent with enforcing it.  Perhaps, when she is regulated, you could ask her to set the boundary  with a question like "How often do you think is a good idea for us to talk with each other throughout the day when I am not home", If her is answer is a rational one like two or three times for a few minutes each time, adopt it without hesitation.  However, if she says every single break, you must call me - that is not reasonable, and if she is regulated than explain that is not practical, with a list of reasonable explanations, and negotiate to a number you can both agree on.  This way it is her idea, and you are merely enforcing it (especially when she becomes dysregulated later on).


(1) Having a shower whenever I want (so long as it’s not wildly inconvenient for her). This has been ongoing for a couple of years, the worst that usually happens now is her texting me her annoyance as I tend to do it once she’s in bed with the kids. She claims to never get a chance to have a shower but actually she can’t be bothered and would rather I didn’t (it seems she doesn’t like me feeling good about myself).

I have similar issues.  I take nice long hot showers, she complains that I take too long of a shower.  Then she turns around, and complains I do not take enough showers to our therapist.  Yet another paradox of the borderline, you cannot win with a borderline as their mood shifts, so do their wants which has the effect of 'moving goal posts' for you.  Or like Lucy snatching away the ball just as Charlie Brown is about to kick it after Lucy said she wouldn't from the cartoon series Peanuts.  I personally don't monitor my wife's shower usage, that would seem a bit creepy.

With regards to excessive texting, my wife never had that issue at home, but did when I was at work, or she was away on a girls weekend out.  So, I do some, but not as much as she wants me to, I made a compromise with her on this.  When she pushed on a subject, I asked her a simple question, how much do your girlfriends get texted by the spouses?  It usually shut it down, as most or friends have spouses who hunt and are around a whole lot less than I am.


(2) Video calling my parents with the kids. My wife still gets annoyed with this (again same thing that’s been going on for years now). She either gets annoyed if I do it during our precious time together, or if I do it when she’s not around. Today it was me and the girls while she had baby nap with her in the next room. She sent a few annoyed texts but that was all.

Set a boundary on this too.  Ask your spouse, how many times a week should they be in contact with your parents.  Until they are teens I would think one or two calls per week of at least 15 minutes per call would be good per child - what do you think a good amount is?


(3) Although it’s the break I will still be working teaching some students at their homes and online. I need to arrange with my wife when good times are to do this. This is fair enough but unfortunately it can’t just be sorted in one discussion because then I have to tweak the plans to please everyone. I think you understand that I need to work, especially as I get paid termly at the beginning, and it’s the end of term. So the accusations are that I always go on about work, it’s all I care about etc. and that I always ruin everything by going to work. Once plans have been made she gets annoyed if I remind her I’m working and she gets annoyed if I don’t remind her and she also will entirely deny that she agreed Tuesday morning would be a good time to work etc.

I understand your need.  Also my wife is a work-a-holic, but doesn't get paid for it, as it is volunteer work, as the expense of her family life with me and the children (her most severely impactful OCPD symptom), so I devised using Google Calendar to allocate a fair amount of time for each activity and to minimize conflicts, that way plan have been agreed to, and I just point to the calendar to indicate that we have already agreed to it, and unless both of agree to change what had already been agreed to it doesn't - this is how I work that boundary in my life.  I unfortunately allow her to do more time than on the calendar, as it keeps her out of the house and in turn out of my hair, which to me is a good break from her.  A different dynamic than yours, but then she complains that I don't work as hard as she does - I do it is just on different things that she doesn't perceive as work, but it is.



So actually, all of these things have been going on for years. I focus on not walking on eggshells, doing what I need to do to look after myself, retain a good relationship with my parents and work to support the family (and pay for her Christmas present guitar she chose which was more expensive than I wanted it to be). I aim to never apologise for these things or ask permission. Alongside the not walking on eggshells is handling my wife’s responses. Mostly she has been quite under control recently, but she is very sick (pretty sure we saw a faint line on the covid test), which will make everything so much harder, and we may have to cancel some of our family outings etc depending how everyone is. At least I don’t need to worry about her complaining about the Christmas gifts I got her as she’s only getting the guitar and a hair product she bought herself (I really hope she knows this ).

I am no longer focusing on not walking on eggshells.  If I break a few, she will have to deal with it, as I am feeling a bit more indifferent towards the relationship - I will no longer be her subservient slave to her whims - a boundary of sorts - when implemented, she backs off on her demands.

Do maintain a good relationship with your parents.  If she complains about the two gifts, consider getting a bunch of smaller token type gifts (like candies, stocking stuffers) that she might like as well.  Perhaps 'love coupons' on stuff you do anyways for her, but it will be spelled out (perhaps things you would like her to do for you but you are giving them to her in order to give her some ideas if she isn't too self-centered to realize this), Amazon has coupon books, or you can make your own.  The gifts of toys are for the kids anyways.


Any further thoughts or advice welcome. I will bear in mind what not Wendy has pointed out, no matter what I do or don’t do, dbpdw will still be dbpd (even though she thinks she’s cured). Maybe I will never be able to do these things without a reaction, but I count it as a success when there’s no shouting or screeching and the children don’t have to be aware of anything bad going on between us.

I agree with NW, she will always be a borderline for as long as the borderline behaviors are there.  I cringe when our couple's therapist says to me 'why are you still thinking she is a borderline' -- I want to so badly say, 'because of her borderline behaviors' which would be very triggering for my wife - I think I shall say that the next time my wife complains of this, and I will specifically ask to review each of the 9 symptoms with multiple examples of each symptom (6 or more specific instances for each), that way we can possibly get a diagnosis so my wife can feel compelled to do something about it.

Overall I have no specific suggestions, other than to follow through with your intentions, it sounds like you are moving in a good direction, and I am also confirming and validating how frustrating your wife's behaviors can be, and that you aren't alone in experiencing variations on them. 

I am celebrating your recent boundary setting win with your wife, keep up the good work, even though there will be setbacks, it will ultimately be much better for you.

As usual take care with self-care.

SD