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Author Topic: Double bind conversations are exhausting  (Read 277 times)
Justmeandbax

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Dating
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« on: August 05, 2024, 01:56:31 PM »

Partner is in a downward spiral, demanding constant validation, even for my perceived ‘wrongs’ that are so far removed from reality that it borders on insanity. It’s exhausting.
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kells76
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2024, 02:36:28 PM »

Hey there... and Welcome

I hear you about being wiped out. Exhausting circular conversations aren't helpful for anyone -- you, your partner, or the relationship -- and it isn't always intuitive how to get out of one. In fact, little about having an effective BPD relationship is intuitive.

Are your partner's demands in person, over the phone, via text, on social media...?

How have you typically responded in the past?

I'm curious if anything in our workshop on Stopping Circular Arguments resonates with you and your situation -- fill us in, whenever works best for you. We'll be here;

kells76
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Justmeandbax

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Dating
Posts: 3


« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2024, 03:24:31 PM »

Circular conversations in phone calls are the more usual, and more difficult to shut down. I’ve this  past week cut calls short when the circular, on-constant-repeat conversations start. It’s somewhat easier to put a stop to it face-to-face, as happened today. But nonetheless exhausting. Resolving an issue, both agreeing it’s resolved to mutual satisfaction, to have it dragged in again five mins later…tiring. Then there’s the confabulation, to bolster feelings that seem to have their roots in negative perceptions of ordinary everyday occurrences. Being accused of mad-cap stuff that exists only in his own mind, and is being fed, watered and nurtured by his own angst. For good or ill, I’ve made it clear today that I will no longer engage those lies, I will not tolerate being lied about or to, and will stop any conversation immediately if that starts….e.g….he’s justified in excluding me from a recent family  event because I “flew with my son to (an English city) 4 or 5 times in the last few years including this January leaving him at home to mind my dog”. Reality: I have been there twice with my son, once in 2000 and overnight in 2021-when my other son looked after said pet and partner was in his own home due to Covid restrictions. Yet he wants me to validate HIS feelings that justify the ‘story’ he scripted to justify his behaviour. Mind bending.
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kells76
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2024, 04:20:57 PM »

The analogy I'm getting for your situation is asking the question "what tool do you need to build a house"?

The answer isn't just "a hammer". It's: "lots of tools, at different times, and sometimes the same tool a few times, and sometimes multiple tools for the same task".

I think I'm reading a couple of things going on with the circular conversations that you two are having.

One is that it's good you're recognizing that you have 100% control over your participation.

We're allowed to think about our own values and priorities, and decide for ourselves what rules we'll have in our own lives, that are totally under our control. A shorter way to say that is that we are allowed to have true boundaries  Being cool (click to insert in post)

A person can have any kind of boundary about circular conversations, ranging from "I leave the room as soon as I think one is starting" through "I choose to engage with the conversation as long as it stays calm" through "I give circular conversations 5 minutes of my time and then I move on". What's important is that you respect your own boundary, whatever it is. For you, it sounds like you are deciding not to participate in interactions where the other person is lying about you, to you.

It'll be critical to remember that the boundary is for your own protection, not for controlling or changing anyone else's behavior. Your boundary protects you from hearing hurtful and untrue things about you. Will he keep saying those things after you hang up the phone? Will he keep believing them? Will he say them to others? Who knows... he might? But the important thing is that you protect yourself from hearing it, no matter what he does.

...

The other thing I'm picking up on is the idea of validation (another tool, along with boundaries).

There's this "pop culture" idea that validation means agreeing with whatever the other person says, no matter how crazy. Then we find ourselves saying "He can't expect me to validate that, it's a lie!" or "How can I validate the crazy stuff she thinks is true?"

That isn't quite it, fortunately! At BPDfamily.com, we don't endorse agreeing with stuff that isn't true, or just saying "yes, dear", or placating the pwBPD. None of those are true validation.

True emotional validation is a next-level skill that involves pausing, putting ourselves in our loved one's shoes, thinking about how we would feel if we really believed what they were saying/thinking/feeling, and "hitting the validation target". It's not easy or intuitive -- but it gets both parties out of the conflict trap where the pwBPD is expressing feelings in a low-skill way when making factually incorrect statements, and the non-BPD is getting defensive or wanting to "set the record straight" -- just continuing the conflict cycle.

I think I'm seeing a glimmer of the feelings behind his words, here:

he’s justified in excluding me from a recent family  event because I “flew with my son to (an English city) 4 or 5 times in the last few years including this January leaving him at home to mind my dog”.

Obviously, it isn't true that you live a jet-setting lifestyle where you can leave him on the porch and waltz around the world on airplanes every couple of months.

If he has BPD, then he has significantly impaired skills when it comes to managing and expressing his feelings, which may tend towards feeling victimized/abandoned. He won't be able to say things like "when you flew to [city] a few years ago, I struggled with feeling alone and left behind". That level of insight and vulnerability is deeply impaired for many pwBPD. What he is able to come up with is -- he feels so lonely and "left behind"... he doesn't have insight into why... what on earth could've made him feel so forgotten... his partner leaving multiple times is the only thing that could hit so hard... so it must have happened... and you said you went twice... so you must have gone more, if he feels it so strongly.

Sometimes, when we validate the feelings behind the words (note: we are not agreeing "it happened the way he said"... we are validating the emotions, not the "facts"), that can halt a circular conversation. Sometimes circular conversations happen because the pwBPD is feeling unheard or misunderstood about their feelings.

One approach when hearing something off the rocker like "you went to [city] five times and left me alone at home" would be to find the emotions behind those words, reflect on how you would feel if you felt that way, and engage with that:

Him: you always leave me alone at home when you fly around all the time.

You: oh wow, babe... that would hurt to feel lonely and left behind like that.

Because if I felt like my H was always leaving me behind when he went on trips, I would feel pretty lonely, too.

...

Neither boundaries nor validation is "the one tool" you'll ever need to build the house. They're two pretty good tools, and there are a lot more that can help make your relationship more livable for you. You may find that you need multiple tools even in one conversation; for example, if after you offer emotional validation, he just keeps going with the circular conflict, you are allowed to exit the conversation: "hey babe, I need to take the bread out of the oven, I'll be back in 30 minutes". No justification necessary, just you taking care of yourself  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

...

It's good you're able to exit in-person conversations when you need to.

What makes the phone ones more difficult, would you say?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 04:21:13 PM by kells76 » Logged
Justmeandbax

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Dating
Posts: 3


« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2024, 05:21:19 PM »

Exiting phone conversations by hanging up just seems abrupt and rude, so I avoid it unless he’s becoming abusive or raising his voice. If that happens (rarely now), I hang up. In circular conversations, I’ll have made several attempts to end the conversation and have been subjected to yet another rant before it gets to the ‘I need to go do’ stage.
He attended Schema based therapy some years ago with some success, and we’ve had a few years relatively free of borderline behaviours. However in the last 5-6 months he has been gradually slipping back into ‘old’ behaviours and negative thinking. A visit to his parents’ grave (that I was unaware he’d planned), seems to have triggered an all-out reversion to full-blown borderline thinking and behaviour. He has just started DBT, has had two visits, and says he’s committed to continuing. We’ll see.
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