Love Must be Tough ~ James Dobson, PhD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Love Must Be Tough: New Hope for Marriages in Crisis Author: James Clayton Dobson, Jr., PhD (Psychology) Publisher: Tyndale Momentum; 1 edition (April 1, 2007) Paperback: 238 pages ISBN-10: 141431745X ISBN-13: 9781414317458

I was asked to give some examples from James Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough - New Hope for Marriages in Crisis".

This is a Christian book - but it is easy to skip over the religious parts if you aren't big on religions. The basic premise of the book is about adultery, and how to overcome and heal from it. It also applies to many situations that crop up when you love someone who suffers from BPD.

When we first find out our SO's cheated (or raged) on us, we often go into a panic and appeasement mode. We quickly get over our hurt and begin to panic that we may lose them, so we debase ourselves trying to suck up to them. We lose our dignity and give up our self respect trying to win them back. We are willing to take them back on any terms, since we are truly desperate. Even if we try to stand toe to toe with them, we wind up losing, since even more damage is done that way.  When the dust settles after a mutual blow up, we inevitably are the ones who make peace first and forgive... This desperation creates an imbalance in power (we need them more than they need us), creating an environment where more and more abuse occurs - cause we will put up with anything to keep them with us... . When one partner strays, Dobson's explanation is that they were feeling trapped, and looking for some freedom. This moving away caused the non to cling even tighter and harder to their partner, making them feel even more trapped, creating even more of a panic to escape and get away. Our frantic need not to lose them suffocates them.  We create the very dynamic that we fear. A self fulfilled destiny... .sound familiar? We feed the push/pull cycle of BPD with our own insecurities and fears. There is also a good discussion about how our appeasement of them slowly destroys the respect they have for us. This lack of respect erodes the very foundation of the relationship. You don't value something that is cheap and easily replaceable. You don't value something that you don't respect. The more we give and put up with the abuse (co-dependent anyone?), the more abuse we wind up getting. When viewed that way, it makes sense. If you love something, set if free. If it comes back, it was meant to be. If it doesn't, it never was. The only way to win back a partner, is to let them go... .no strings attached. This changes the power structure. They no longer feel trapped. They begin to re-examine if they really want to be free. You regain the sense of you that you lost while chasing after them and trying to keep them happy, instead of caring for yourself. They get to see you begin to love yourself, therefore you become more lovable... .

There is a lot more... .essentially it is about loving yourself enough to take care of yourself... . 

[united for now]

Love Must Be Tough: New Hope for Marriages in Crisis Author: James Clayton Dobson, Jr., PhD (Psychology) Publisher: Tyndale Momentum; 1 edition (April 1, 2007) Paperback: 238 pages ISBN-10: 141431745X ISBN-13: 9781414317458

I was asked to give some examples from James Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough - New Hope for Marriages in Crisis".

This is a Christian book - but it is easy to skip over the religious parts if you aren't big on religions. The basic premise of the book is about adultery, and how to overcome and heal from it. It also applies to many situations that crop up when you love someone who suffers from BPD.

When we first find out our SO's cheated (or raged) on us, we often go into a panic and appeasement mode. We quickly get over our hurt and begin to panic that we may lose them, so we debase ourselves trying to suck up to them. We lose our dignity and give up our self respect trying to win them back. We are willing to take them back on any terms, since we are truly desperate. Even if we try to stand toe to toe with them, we wind up losing, since even more damage is done that way.  When the dust settles after a mutual blow up, we inevitably are the ones who make peace first and forgive... This desperation creates an imbalance in power (we need them more than they need us), creating an environment where more and more abuse occurs - cause we will put up with anything to keep them with us... . When one partner strays, Dobson's explanation is that they were feeling trapped, and looking for some freedom. This moving away caused the non to cling even tighter and harder to their partner, making them feel even more trapped, creating even more of a panic to escape and get away. Our frantic need not to lose them suffocates them.  We create the very dynamic that we fear. A self fulfilled destiny... .sound familiar? We feed the push/pull cycle of BPD with our own insecurities and fears. There is also a good discussion about how our appeasement of them slowly destroys the respect they have for us. This lack of respect erodes the very foundation of the relationship. You don't value something that is cheap and easily replaceable. You don't value something that you don't respect. The more we give and put up with the abuse (co-dependent anyone?), the more abuse we wind up getting. When viewed that way, it makes sense. If you love something, set if free. If it comes back, it was meant to be. If it doesn't, it never was. The only way to win back a partner, is to let them go... .no strings attached. This changes the power structure. They no longer feel trapped. They begin to re-examine if they really want to be free. You regain the sense of you that you lost while chasing after them and trying to keep them happy, instead of caring for yourself. They get to see you begin to love yourself, therefore you become more lovable... .

There is a lot more... .essentially it is about loving yourself enough to take care of yourself... . 

[BetterLanes]

What an educational and engaging read this book was.

So, as it turns out, this book was not written for me, although I learned a lot from it. I realised that fairly quickly - in fact while reading the Amazon writeup: "Love Must Be Tough offers the guidance that gives you the best chance of rekindling romance, renewing your relationship, and drawing your partner back into your arms." That pushed my panic button already. Then the book went ahead and pushed my anger buttons. I even got mad at Chuck Swindoll's extract and I love Chuck. I know it's not their fault. The book is written for someone whose partner has committed adultery (or another serious issue) and they want them back. Not for someone who has wished their partner would commit adultery so they would go away and stop bothering them. So I effectively had to read it backwards, from the POV of the detached partner. But there was still a lot of useful material in there.

The most important thing I learned was about the issue of respect in a marriage. I highlighted "That's why marital discord almost always emanates from seething disrespect somewhere in the relationship." I think disrespect is right at the core of my attitude towards my H. He shows me all of his least manly and most childlike behaviors. That's a big proportion of the content of what in our relationship is properly interpersonal (aside from things like planning or discussing facts or intellectual ideas). If he is upset about something, he complains, blames me, rages, criticizes, jumps to irrational conclusions, demands I fix his problems for him, occasionally breaks things or throws them away, walks out of the house, walks off in public. If he is not currently upset about something, he talks and acts at a very low level of maturity, using baby-talk or a "rude boy in the playground" level of sexual talk, talking nonsense, being mock-angry, and other behaviors that I am embarrassed to post on a board read by strangers who are here because their significant others do shameful things. If I object to any of the latter category of behaviors, I'm "grumpy". And then I have to have sex with him. I guess that's the kicker. Sometimes I have to wait while he finishes criticizing me for being too slow coming up to the bedroom, or listen to him use baby-talk or nonsense talk, before I can start kissing him. I am glad in this situation to have an emotional "off" switch. So. Humanly speaking, I can't fix this issue of respect one-sided while these behaviors continue. I'm aware that a Christian wife ought to respect her husband and I could pray for God to reprogram my head so that I can respect him in spite of the behaviors and deal with my feelings about them. This feels to me like the wrong approach. I learned from the book that it will cause me to blow up like a hydrogen bomb at some point.

I also learned about the importance of confrontation and following through with consequences, and I'm aware this in particular is the part where the BPD needs to be taken into consideration. I noted with interest that my H actually seems to be "leaning back" somewhat recently, I would not be entirely surprised to find that he had read the book himself. If he had, he probably would have concluded that it had worked from the way my mood has improved in the last month since learning what is going on and what are my options and so effectively opening my own cage door.

I know a book report needs a conclusion, so thank you Formflier for recommending this book, and it certainly did have an impact and was a very helpful read, although perhaps not in the way you experienced for yourself.

BetterLanes x

[Notwendy]

I can understand your reaction to that part of the book. I also recommended it. I have not read it in many years. It was one of many books that I read on marriage when I was trying to figure out what was gong on with mine.

I read books from different perspectives- authors from different religions and secular. The idea of boundaries, tough love and respect were present in several.

This is the take away I recall from the book. For people who are struggling with these ideas-is it ok with my religion to have tough love ? The book says yes. Dobson has a PhD and is able to combine psychological principles with his ethical framework to help those who may be strugling with both.

Since this is the conflicted board - I don’t think anyone here would suggest telling someone to save or leave their marriage. I think most religions would support an attempt to save it first. However not all can be. If you feel yours is not - boundaries and tough love may lead you to make the right choice for you.

[Enabler]

I too was a big advocate of the book although it was very much more relevant for me on the affair front. However, affair, drugs, alcohol, violence, emotional abuse... .does it matter what the "thing" is, it's about how we tackle it. The church typically suggests we approach these "things" with loving kindness, which often leads to perpetuating the errant behaviors. Dobson flips this on it's head and says that in loving someone we should stop protecting them with our ignorance and kindness and force them into an uncomfortable reality... .we should stop enabling their dysfunction and allow them to bare the consequences of there behaviors. He does not guarantee that a happy marriage will be the result, far from it, he believes this is the loving thing to do by showing your partner that firstly you love yourself and secondly that you know what love looks like and his behavior is not it.

"I do not believe that _______ can be part of a loving relationship, I would like to be part of a loving relationship with you but until ________ is resolved I will not pretend that I am. I will do __________ until it is resolved."

Your husband does demonstrate cage like behaviours by his constant moaning, griping, angry behaviours... .he's gnawing at the bars and pooping in the corner. No doubt he believe that he deserves better, he could achieve more... .well the cage door is open sunshine, go get it.

You also admit that you show cage like behaviour and have 1 foot out the cage door, you are liberated by knowing the cage door is open, you're breathing fresh air having spent a long time in the cage with the poop in the corner... .however, dare I say it, are you finding reasons to not jump out the cage, waiting for a perfect moment, a soft landing? What are the positive attributes of the beast you share the cage with? He must have some, you married him.

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Notwendy and Enabler!

Notwendy, yes, I highlighted a bunch of stuff about the reactions and suggestions for religious people. I learned I have actually been doing the submissive "no rights" approach and as stated, it has not been effective in behavior change.

Enabler, yes, I can see the principles of confrontation can be applied for any case of unwanted behavior. I got angry feelings at the book for (1) not really covering any other sort of spousal abuse than physical, and (2) having the assumption that the reader wants to get the spouse's attention. I know this is standard for marriage books. I can see it was written for readers working from the perspective you have.

Regarding positive attributes, it is true those are present, but they rarely show up in the interpersonal relationship between us. The norm for that is the behaviors I described. If that pattern of relationship were to change, I don't actually know if I would then like being in a relationship with him or if he would like being in a relationship with me. Teenage me "chose him" in a very similar scenario to your W, except I actually had broken off the preceding relationship a month or two before. In retrospect I wouldn't trust teenage me with a burnt out match let alone a choice of life partner, and as an informative Christian relationship book I bought for my D informed me, "having sex too early on in the relationship can confuse your feelings for each other".

Regarding positive attributes as a reason not to leave the cage, it was only a little over a month ago I found that the cage door might not be barred and bolted by God after all, and with all the frantic research to get to my current point I've had little time to consider that side of the question. I also find it really hard to know what is genuinely me thinking positive thoughts about my H, and what is me pushing the "It's all fine, everything's fine" reaction shutoff button in his presence for the purposes of tranquility. It is good to be able to vent on this board, but BetterLanes feels like just yet another presentation of me and I can't tell yet if she's the one to trust or not. (My T and I are working on this.)

BetterLanes (possibly

[BetterLanes]

I should add that another thing from the book that resonated with me was the woman who said if she could have a do-over, she wouldn't actually change events. God has looked after me very well and I can now understand the point of all the things that have happened in my life so far and their timing. My daughter is as beautiful and bright and changeable and fascinating as the sky and I am very glad that she is in the world. I wouldn't have a do-over either. I always knew there was something wrong in the core of it all though, and now I can put a name to that and try to fix it by some means.

BL x

[Enabler]

Someone proposed this question 2 years ago:

“If there were a big green button in front of me that, if pressed, would make me fully single, where everything has been worked out with getting our things from each other’s apartments, where everyone in my life already knows, and where I’m totally emotionally recovered and moving on – in fact, I have a date tonight – would I press the button?”

Would you press the button?
 

[Red5]

Someone proposed this question 2 years ago:

“If there were a big green button in front of me that, if pressed, would make me fully single, where everything has been worked out with getting our things from each other’s apartments, where everyone in my life already knows, and where I’m totally emotionally recovered and moving on – in fact, I have a date tonight – would I press the button?”

Would you press the button?
 

... .or, "a red button", that would move you back in time, to the exact moment you (I/we) met future BPD/w... .but (caveat) you would have retained all your learned knowledge of her; known thus far (the person w/BPD) from that moment and up to now... .would you still continue "dating" her ?

The old movie "The time Machine" with Cliff Robertson staring; was on the other night, made me think of this... .

So would I go on that second date ?

hmmm... .

Red5

[Enabler]

Without a doubt

[formflier]

BetterLanes,

It's been a bit since I've read the book, so I'll say that my broad "purpose" for pushing you to read the book was to understand "demanding respect in a religious marriage".  That such a demand is actually a loving thing... and not hurtful.  In fact, it is hurtful to not demand respect.

Now... I get it that we aren't supposed to tell people to stay or leave... and I won't do that.  

Part of the hope is that if both parties start "behaving respectfully" and "demanding respect"... .many times they start looking at each other differently... .feelings can change.

Last (for now):  Most importantly, through this entire process, I hope you continue to focus on loving yourself first... respecting yourself first and respecting yourself enough to not "participate in nonsense" (how is that for a broad catch all term for BPD)


FF

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Enabler, Red5 and Formflier!

Formflier, I think a chunk of the problem is I had minimal self-respect at the start of the relationship. It's a bit better now. Yes nonsense is a good term for it all! I think the issue of respect and disrespect might be a good way to talk about things in general terms with my H - "I feel [behaviors x, y, and z] are disrespectful".

Red5, I like that your button is red too! I wouldn't push that one though. Leaving aside my daughter (who would presumably exist anyway in other hypothetical scenarios - time travel is a real minefield), I can see how the relationship has worked for my benefit. " And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." For one significant benefit, I wasn't born resilient - I was a tearful, tactless, and anxious child - but now I can do emotional stuffing and keeping my mouth shut like a Jedi Master and it's a really useful life skill.

Enabler, that leaves me staring at your green button Actually, thinking about it, that was one of my earliest thoughts on finding out that you could get an annulment for BPD. I now know it would be more complicated than this, but my thought was to effectively make a big green button and present that to my H to see if he wanted to just push rather than attempt a bunch of hard inner work. "Look, I think you have BPD and that causes issues in our relationship, and you seem kind of withdrawn lately. I found out you can get an annulment for BPD. You know an annulment means the marriage just wasn't meant to be spiritually and you don't have to feel bad about it. Do you think you would just like to be free and start over with someone else and not have to bother working on this? I didn't tell anybody who we know yet, so we could say any explanation you like and nobody will think badly of you."  I think I would have that button all ready to deploy now but from what I've learned I don't trust that would work out in a good way.

I know that response is the equivalent of your W wanting you to be responsible for the divorce, and doesn't answer the question about whether I myself would push the button. If you added "and God is fine with you pushing the button and your H is fine and also moving on and your D is happy", then yes, I would slap that button. But that's not a level of certainty I'm going to get, is it.

BetterLanes x

PS for Enabler, was the "without a doubt" that you would push Red5's red button, or that you would go on the second date? Time travel as I said is complex, so I think for the purposes of this discussion you are allowed to narrow it down to just the person in the marital relationship and assume everything else happens anyway in some other alternative scenario.

[Enabler]

I would go on the second, third, fourth date, and marry her. The sucky part of dealing with a pwBPD is not knowing about BPD... .

[formflier]

Formflier, I think a chunk of the problem is I had minimal self-respect at the start of the relationship. It's a bit better now. Yes nonsense is a good term for it all! I think the issue of respect and disrespect might be a good way to talk about things in general terms with my H - "I feel [behaviors x, y, and z] are disrespectful".
 

I try to mix up my advice and have a "full toolbag of BPD tools and "advice" tools.


I'm sure we all agree that there is no right or wrong answer to "counter" BPDish behavior... it's such a spectrum.

As such, I like to use "good, better, best".  Realizing that can also be a moving target.  

The "goal" is really that you are deliberate about your actions and words and that you pay attention to how they are working, much like you use a tool, knowing you will have to use it again (let's say on an engine)... .and as you put it back in the toolbox you are thinking... ."I wonder if this is the best tool for next time."

There is nothing wrong with "I feel" statement.  Sometimes they invite people to have different feelings... and "set up camp" over there.  Then there is stalemate... .neither side "willing to change".  Other times... it goes fine.  Trial and error.

Most of the time it's better to let them "connect the dots".

"I will continue this conversation when "threats" are not between us."  

You are stating your "facts".  This is how I work.  

You are NOT blaming him... .if he wants to believe there are no threats... he can...  Or he can examine things further.

"Us" is mentioned... .very important to refer to the relationship.

The pathway is open for how YOU will continue... it's up to him to do the work or find the threats... all you will do is pay attention... .from way over yonder... where it is safe.

Thoughts?

FF

[AskingWhy]

Had I known about BPD as I do now, I would never have married H.

As soon as he started ignoring me in the presence of his children, I would have left.  (In the presence of his children, of which his X W had custody, I would cease to exist.)  Stupid me, I married him and my treatment got worse as his children grew.  By the time they were all teenagers, they were demanding that he divorce me.  He put them above me in his feelings, and never disciplined them.