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Author Topic: TREATMENT: Cures and remission?  (Read 6618 times)
Mermaid7seas
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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 02:27:48 AM »

I have a 100% success story.

My husband was diagnosed BPD several times...rages, suicide attempts, road rage, verbally and emotionally controlling and abusive, dissociative, emotionally VERY labile, impulsive..you name it.


He eventually got into  DBT and stayed for 3.5 yrs. I went into codependancy therapy and DBT for family members.

He has been 100% symptom free now since last August. Period. He is able to identify his emotions, regulate them, he is not at the mercy of them..he functions on a normal and healthy level. Our relationship is VERY happy and healthy. He graduated from "advanced DBT" and his DBT therapist pronounced him well. Our DBT skilled marital therapist pronounced us well.

He did change a bit..he is not impulsive, he is better organized, he is thoughtful and very insightful into himself. He can talk about the hard stuff of the past, he doesnt melt down, implode, explode..In short, all is very, very well.

Steph

Steph, What exactly is DBT?
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peacebaby
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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 08:46:45 AM »

I believe that BPD can be "cured". The person in question just needs to really want it and be able to stick with treatment.

My DBPDSO is presently in a 5-day a week DBT program that includes all kinds of therapies and classes and groups, and she's doing amazingly well. In under two months I see so many changes in her ability to think more clearly, to examine and control her emotions, and to generally be more mature.

I think a lot of the "cure" is about the power of positive thinking. Training the mind towards positive behaviors and thoughts, and away from destructive behaviors and thoughts.

And I don't know for sure what "cured" will mean for my partner, and I think it means different things for different people. I don't know if all of it will totally "go away" but as long as she feels better in general and can handle life better in general, even with some symptoms, that's "cured" to me.


Peacebaby


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Steph
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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 11:56:08 AM »

 DBt stands for Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. It is a long term therapy that literally will "rewire" the way someone with emotional dysregulation issues processes emotions..as well as coping skills for life. In my H's case, he was pronounced cured and he functions normally now and has for many months. It is a group milieu..a year to teach basic skills, then they usually recommend another year and then the advanced group which is less structured, but more practical. Its tricky because the BPD symptoms work against someone starting DBT. Most often, tho, the person with BPD will get into a group and, for the " first time in my life, I feel like someone 'gets' me" and they feel accepted and understood. And they are.

  There are often family classes, too, to address OUR issues..and we have MANY..and ways to relate and communicate. We do teach some of those skills right here on our boards and workshops.

Does this help?

Steph
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justrealized
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2009, 01:04:56 PM »

IMHO, no I don't believe BPD's can be cured.  I am just going on the basis of my mother, a few other people I have observed, and the dozens of stories I have read on this board.

You mention the necessity of the BPD to accept diagnosis in order for there to be any possibility of improvement. Indeed, but thats the catch-22, these people won't accept that anything at all is wrong with them, or that they are ever in the wrong, so why would they accept this diagnosis?

If they do go to therapy alone, or with family, it is usually under duress, and their goal will be prove their case that the other people in their life are "crazy" or the ones at fault.  The minute the therapist reveals that they are onto them, its all over.  Either the therapist is incompetant (according to the BPD) or therapy in general " just doesn't work for them" etc.     

Someone mentioned an individual who was "relieved" to receive the diagnosis because at least it gives them a starting point to work on what's wrong with them.  Again, someone who has at least that much insight, to genuinely accept that they have an emotional problem or challenge does not at all sound like a BPD.  This unfortunate indvidual is someone who really wants to work on their behaviour and perceptions, and has obviously been misdiagnosed.

Lets remember that BPD is currently a "popular" or "hot" diagnosis for therapists to apply, much as bipolar  and manic depressive was for several years.

Also I think your choice of the word "remission" is an unfortunate one.  We are not working with a disease model in this instance. The complete lack of compassion or fairness that the average BPD demonstrates, originates in some experience which creates a physiological condition that has affected the particular part of the brain that houses these concepts.

Yes, there are many cases of BPDs "slowing" down as they get older, but much of that could just be attributed to diminishing physical energy or health etc.  The same reason that older people retire from their worklife at a certain point, or don't pursue their hobbies with the same enthusiasm they did when younger.

The "projects" a BPD pursues ( in general creating havoc and drama and mucking up the works for those nearest to them) is something that does require time and energy and enthusiasm, which may diminish in their elder years, hence the idea that " they're getting better".       
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lbjnltx
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2009, 02:08:41 PM »

dear justrealized,

my BPD(12) has in the last month said to me several things that indicate that she does know that she has something wrong with her.  i see this as very promising and an open door to move forward with therapy.  just as some people are dx with cancer in certain stages, so can BPD be experienced to certain degrees in individuals.  not all cancer is fatal, some do recover with treatment, and the sooner you catch it and address it, the better your chances of recovery are.

the power of positive thinking, search engine run by love.,

lbjnltx

Edit: my daughter, now 16, has made a remarkable progress.
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nothingupmysleeve
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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2009, 02:37:05 PM »

IMHO, no I don't believe BPD's can be cured.  I am just going on the basis of my mother, a few other people I have observed, and the dozens of stories I have read on this board.

You mention the necessity of the BPD to accept diagnosis in order for there to be any possibility of improvement. Indeed, but thats the catch-22, these people won't accept that anything at all is wrong with them, or that they are ever in the wrong, so why would they accept this diagnosis?

If they do go to therapy alone, or with family, it is usually under duress, and their goal will be prove their case that the other people in their life are "crazy" or the ones at fault.  The minute the therapist reveals that they are onto them, its all over.  Either the therapist is incompetant (according to the BPD) or therapy in general " just doesn't work for them" etc.     

Someone mentioned an individual who was "relieved" to receive the diagnosis because at least it gives them a starting point to work on what's wrong with them.  Again, someone who has at least that much insight, to genuinely accept that they have an emotional problem or challenge does not at all sound like a BPD.  This unfortunate indvidual is someone who really wants to work on their behaviour and perceptions, and has obviously been misdiagnosed.

Lets remember that BPD is currently a "popular" or "hot" diagnosis for therapists to apply, much as bipolar  and manic depressive was for several years.

Also I think your choice of the word "remission" is an unfortunate one.  We are not working with a disease model in this instance. The complete lack of compassion or fairness that the average BPD demonstrates, originates in some experience which creates a physiological condition that has affected the particular part of the brain that houses these concepts.

Yes, there are many cases of BPDs "slowing" down as they get older, but much of that could just be attributed to diminishing physical energy or health etc.  The same reason that older people retire from their worklife at a certain point, or don't pursue their hobbies with the same enthusiasm they did when younger.

The "projects" a BPD pursues ( in general creating havoc and drama and mucking up the works for those nearest to them) is something that does require time and energy and enthusiasm, which may diminish in their elder years, hence the idea that " they're getting better".       

From all I have read there are several degrees of BPD, including high and low functioning, internalizing and externalizing behaviors, as well as a combo of these. I can understand why you would have the misconception that all BPDs fall into the "refuse to acknowledge" category, but that is not in fact a diagnosis criteria. My UBPD SD and her mom fall into the high functioning category. Meaning they are exceptionally intelligent and thrive scholastically. SD is an honor student on several sports teams at a time, BM has 2 degrees- journalism and nursing. They do their best in black and white/win/lose/cause/effect classes and in BMs case professions. BM has always had a job, or 20 of them. She is always interviewing according to SD, b/c she doesn't like the people she works with or deserves more money is unappreciated etc. SD is always switching friends and then smothers them til they push her away. BM has no friends, just two different BFs the past 5 years, that she juggles back and forth, seeing one behind the other's back. Not sure what's up with the two men who seem normal (co-dependents perhaps?) putting up with it. BM has once or twice admitted she had a problem to DH while they were still married, then when he tried to encourage her to get help she went back into denial.  She conceded custody after a nine month dragged out case, the night before court. This was likely because SD's Dr loaded her interview with the GAL with symptomatic language, suggesting BM has a psych issue. This meant that the judge would then likely allow our psych eval if BM pursued the case into trial. So I think she's that afraid of therapists b/c she knows something's up but prefers denial.

SD is the same way, though she will admit she has anger/temper issues, she is terrified and angered by us having her in therapy.

Then several months ago a young friend of mine, a former addict who tends to float in and out of my life, showed up out of the blue after a year MIA. We talked awhile and I shared some of our dilemma with SD and BM. Then a week or so later my friend came to see me again and let me know she was devastated that the week after we spoke she had a relapse and checked herself into a treatment facility. They did a psych work up and told her she was BP/BPD. She couldn't believe that after just having spoken to me about it.

She is very interested in receiving help and recovery. She already goes to recovery meetings for addicts, so she was open to the diagnosis and working on a treatment. She also offered to someday talk with my SD, should she ever be ready.

I thought to myself, there's NO WAY my friend, who has always dug deep and sought answers for her behavior issues, could be BPD! BUT then I read more books, Eggshells, and the newer ones for families, as well as stuff on here in the articles, AND other sites etc, and read about the different types of borderline personalities.  My friend fits the combo criteria- highly intelligent, but low functioning. And she rather than project her pain she turns it all inward.

So unlike the BPD way of thinking, I really believe now that we cannot lump them into black and white categories either. There are too many circumstances that influence this disorder, not just genetics.


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Steph
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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2009, 02:39:24 PM »

 I think another factor is that BPD can be complicated with alcoholism, drug addiction, other personality disorders and mental illnesses, or not even be BPD at all, but be others like antisocial or even psychopathic, which are entirely different and quite hard to treat.

In my H's case, he was definately diagnosed with BPD, was extremely hgh functioning,  yet had no other diagnosis and no addictions.

Steph
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JoannaK
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2009, 04:10:55 PM »

There is a Workshop on this subject:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=76487.0
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2009, 05:54:46 PM »

I think in the case of High Functioning Acting Out BPD's, the behaviors are truly opportunistic. My BPDW can easily turn if off in public and around friends and extended family, even in stressful situations. Before we had kids, there were few signs of what would be to come. And if there were no kids here for her to use to control me, I am pretty confident she would have to watch her step. The best analogy (although I hate to use it cause it is extreme) is to a pedophile. They are usually model prisoners, and will be model citizens if confined to the presence of adults. But put them in a space where there are kids around, that is another story. HF BPD's with history of major childhood trauma will focus their behaviors on spouse and kids. Once they lose their leverage, they will likely sublimate their behaviors to avoid abandonment
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hesh

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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2011, 01:13:00 AM »

I was reading the post in the 50 top questions about whether or not BPD can be cured. As I understand it they have meds to get through the crises times to help deal with the therapy which mostly focuses on dealing with behaviors and triggers. What about dealing with the underlying issues like childhood abuse. Does that ever happen and does it make a difference?
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2011, 01:52:47 AM »

Treatment can help a lot.. and can help to deal w/childhood issues too.. slow process.. but my partner has been in T for a couple of years and its made a big difference..
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ShadesofGray
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« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2011, 04:35:40 PM »

Can someone please explain why those in the mental illness profession think that people with BPD are impossible to treat? And how come many refuse to treat them?

Does this apply to all 4 types, the witch, queen, waif, and hermit?

Does this apply to those who just have traits, too?

I don't understand this. I've been in therapy for way too many years and I wouldn't be there if I didn't truly want to get better. There's certainly many other things I'd rather do with my time and money. Why, then, do therapists think we go for treatment?

If those with full-blown BPD never think that there is anything wrong with them, and that THEY don't need therapy, then those aren't the ones who ever seek it. I, on the other hand, was raised by a BPD and seem to have some traits so I do fall somewhere on the spectrum. However, I keep struggling in therapy. I now see that most likely my past 2 psychologists figured out I had BPD traits and they were not comfortable treating me, but did me a disservice and didn't say so, because I never felt like I got anywhere with them. I am now with a LCSW who likes to help those with BPD or those who were raised with BPD, and it's much different. But I am still confused over exactly why the stigma exists from mental health professionals, if there are people who are trying to get help.

Thanks in advance.

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« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2011, 06:30:04 PM »

some patients w/BPD are very needy and use up therapists' energy for attention/through attention seeking behaviors.

dbt therapists give their patients phone access 24/7...they also meet w/other therapists weekly for support.

some patients w/BPD are also very difficult to deal w/and drain the therapist...they also sometimes are sporadic in attendance.

hope that helps shed some light.

lbjnltx
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« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2013, 01:42:05 AM »

Can anyone tell me HOW you can tell if the sufferer is going into remission of the symptoms. This may sound like a negative question but it is meant to find a positive outcome. As some sufferers look to DBT for help with their condition, do they learn to cope better or learn to hide the syptoms? I have heard that some suffers start to go into remission in time. With DBT taking approx 3 years, how can the therapists be sure that it is the DBT or the time frame that changes the diagnosis?

My take on the treatment/time frame is that the outcome is a massive positive but their is a lingering doubt that some will adapt and start to hide the condition so leading to problems "behind closed doors". I hope someone may be able to give an answer to this concern.

Ian
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lbjnltx
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« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2013, 02:51:04 PM »

How do you define remission?  Recovery?  Cure?

For me:

remission= a decrees in symptomology

recovery=  a permanent change in thinking patterns/belief systems and behaviors

cure= (specific to BPD) no longer an emotional/black/white/all or nothing thinker, no

          having abandonment fears, no longer having an unstable sense of self...  etc...  

DBT teaches skills to deal with the feelings...  it doesn't change the feelings...  over time, when the patient uses the skills new neuropathways of the brain are created and older neuropathways become culled...  this is time+skills=change.  They are both important.  Consistancy of the use of the skills is important as well as it affects how long it will take to form the new neuropathways.   

Going "underground" with acting out behaviors means what exactly? 

Does it mean they are coping in the moment (good)? or does it mean they self harm in secret? (bad)  or that they are engaging in other self harm behaviors...  like shoplifting or drugs? 

   
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Oldsoldier2411

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« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2013, 04:23:52 PM »

How do you define remission?  Recovery?  Cure?

For me:

remission= a decrees in symptomology

recovery=  a permanent change in thinking patterns/belief systems and behaviors

cure= (specific to BPD) no longer an emotional/black/white/all or nothing thinker, no

          having abandonment fears, no longer having an unstable sense of self...  etc...  

DBT teaches skills to deal with the feelings...  it doesn't change the feelings...  over time, when the patient uses the skills new neuropathways of the brain are created and older neuropathways become culled...  this is time+skills=change.  They are both important.  Consistancy of the use of the skills is important as well as it affects how long it will take to form the new neuropathways.   

Going "underground" with acting out behaviors means what exactly? 

Does it mean they are coping in the moment (good)? or does it mean they self harm in secret? (bad)  or that they are engaging in other self harm behaviors...  like shoplifting or drugs? 

   

Thank you for your answer. I was not trying to disrespect the work of Marsha Linehan with her fabulous work in reducing suicide rates due to the therapy that comes from DBT. Having always been a supporter of reducing the stigma of mental health conditions. I am sure that we ALL would applaud the work that is being done. The tools that the therapists use should be made available to friends and families of the sufferer after completing the course of treatment. This would help to deal with residue of the condition, if any was to remain or resurface. Perhaps I am frustrated by the fact that I was ignorant of the condition, which I suspect many others are equally in the same position. My wife had a brain tumour removed several years ago and I am a firm believer in your explanation of the new pathways, thank you.

Many sufferers hide their condition due to the feelings of shame with regards to things such as shoplifting, as my daughter was also using drugs to self medicate for her depression. I know of a person called Stephen Fry(actor) who suffers from Bipolar and he has his taken faith in his sister to keep an eye on his finances.

Thank you again for your help to answer my concerns.
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2013, 05:30:49 AM »

If one takes into consideration the fact that Borderline is categorized as a disorder and not a disease, like for instance bipolar, then it might be easier to get a perspective on what treatment can achieve...  When we talk in terms of symptoms, remission and cure, it implies that it ist something that has to leave the person like a cancer that can be removed...  and that can be a bit misleading, I think...  

Yes there are perhaps some inherited aspects in play, like maybe a genetic vulnerability, and there are some neurological "symptoms" with an over production in the center for feelings in the cortex of the brain that can be seen in some patients when studying pw diagnosed BPD. But most of what BPD consists of is a learned coping behavior that stems from acquired core beliefs, or schemas created about the self at a very early stage in life, usually due to trauma or growing up in an environment where parents or other important care taker may carry traits of disorder, substance abuse, or other mental health problems or as a result of an in other way, for the child dysfunctional or destructive environment. So it is mostly a combination of a genetic vulnerability a lesser ability to grow a thicker skin so to speak and then small or big or consistent traumas that occur during important early developmental stages in life that together create a disordered mind...  

So treatment is often about acceptance of the disorder, willingness to explore to the person painful and hidden memories and learning to cope with remaining in discomfort while doing so, and then unlearning old behavioral and thought patterns and schemas and dare to create and learn new and more constructive core beliefs about a self that they usually have lost along the way...  So it is a long process, and one that challenges everything they know to be true about themselves, facing tremendous fears and daring to remain in the discomfort.

And the success or failure of treatment lies much in how strong the willingness and the motivation is and how successful the person is in holding back the instinct to want to run away from it to avoid the pain...  

Really all therapeutic work is about learning to cope with different levels of discomfort...  But to a person with a disorder which core issue is discomfort and abandonment, which is the most painful thing there is to a human, is tough work, and it takes the mobilization of other skills to go all the way, which some people have and some don't...  Like the Navy SEAL programs...  Some can handle it, while others can't.

Some part lies also in the skill of the therapist or the team working with the person. And also in the trust and alliance that really is key to maintaining motive to go through such a tough transformation of self, that it means to bring order into a disordered mind...  

Now I am no expert here, but from all the things I have read about treatments and the contents of what a disorder really means, this is where I have arrived so far in my understanding of it...  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Oldsoldier2411

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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2013, 06:23:18 PM »

If one takes into consideration the fact that Borderline is categorized as a disorder and not a disease, like for instance bipolar, then it might be easier to get a perspective on what treatment can achieve...  When we talk in terms of symptoms, remission and cure, it implies that it ist something that has to leave the person like a cancer that can be removed...  and that can be a bit misleading, I think...  

Yes there are perhaps some inherited aspects in play, like maybe a genetic vulnerability, and there are some neurological "symptoms" with an over production in the center for feelings in the cortex of the brain that can be seen in some patients when studying pw diagnosed BPD. But most of what BPD consists of is a learned coping behavior that stems from acquired core beliefs, or schemas created about the self at a very early stage in life, usually due to trauma or growing up in an environment where parents or other important care taker may carry traits of disorder, substance abuse, or other mental health problems or as a result of an in other way, for the child dysfunctional or destructive environment. So it is mostly a combination of a genetic vulnerability a lesser ability to grow a thicker skin so to speak and then small or big or consistent traumas that occur during important early developmental stages in life that together create a disordered mind...  

So treatment is often about acceptance of the disorder, willingness to explore to the person painful and hidden memories and learning to cope with remaining in discomfort while doing so, and then unlearning old behavioral and thought patterns and schemas and dare to create and learn new and more constructive core beliefs about a self that they usually have lost along the way...  So it is a long process, and one that challenges everything they know to be true about themselves, facing tremendous fears and daring to remain in the discomfort.

And the success or failure of treatment lies much in how strong the willingness and the motivation is and how successful the person is in holding back the instinct to want to run away from it to avoid the pain...  

Really all therapeutic work is about learning to cope with different levels of discomfort...  But to a person with a disorder which core issue is discomfort and abandonment, which is the most painful thing there is to a human, is tough work, and it takes the mobilization of other skills to go all the way, which some people have and some don't...  Like the Navy SEAL programs...  Some can handle it, while others can't.

Some part lies also in the skill of the therapist or the team working with the person. And also in the trust and alliance that really is key to maintaining motive to go through such a tough transformation of self, that it means to bring order into a disordered mind...  

Now I am no expert here, but from all the things I have read about treatments and the contents of what a disorder really means, this is where I have arrived so far in my understanding of it...  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks again scout for your input. I can follow your reasoning. This is why as a person that, I hope, I have always tried to think logically or rationally. However, we can see somethings that give us hope but we also have to have compassion, this is what makes the human beings that we are unique from others creatures on this planet. As for DBT as I have said is a tool that shows a massive outcome, but as Marsha Linehan would agree, is not perfect. If it was then there would be a cure. There is so much that we as parents are trying to get clarity on this condition but life is not perfect. My father often told me that we cannot see through other peoples eyes.

With so many people trying to gain as mch info about this condition soetimes we can be mislead by "the experts". Here in the UK many doctors are very relutant to give a diagnosis as this would place a "label" on the sufferer. This would account for the many sufferers failing to get the help they deserve and need. In the meantime the sufferer continues suffering and the parents and loved one still hunting down the answers they need to help. Here our experts go along the acceptance road that what the sufferer has seen is the truth.

Thank you again scout.

Ian
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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2013, 06:15:20 AM »

With so many people trying to gain as mch info about this condition soetimes we can be mislead by "the experts". Here in the UK many doctors are very relutant to give a diagnosis as this would place a "label" on the sufferer. This would account for the many sufferers failing to get the help they deserve and need. In the meantime the sufferer continues suffering and the parents and loved one still hunting down the answers they need to help. Here our experts go along the acceptance road that what the sufferer has seen is the truth.

Thank you again scout.

Ian

I agree with you on this, since it is a problem we have in my country too, (one of the scandinavian countries), we are like an underdeveloped country completely when it comes to mental health...  Too hard to get help the normal way through the medical system and too expensive if you choose to pay for it by yourself. And like in your case a very strange fear of labeling that in my opinion only increases the prejudice about these disorders! And yes at the end of the day there are so many people both with the disorders or close to one that do suffer immensely...  

A shame really...  

In my country you can't almost come in question for DBT unless you are a young girl and have several suicide attempts, cut yourself and have an eating disorder at the same time...  For men with BPD there is virtually nothing...  

Just a note on the efficiency of treatment, it is my understanding that if looking at therapeutic treatment of any sort as a cure, per se, or like popping a pill and it all goes away, I still want to stress out that is a bit misleading...  DBT, could of course and will probably also improve and newer techniques will emerge. But in the end as with all training or learning really, some will excel and some achieve medium and some lower results. Just like with grades in school...  It is not a disease, but a disorder that consists of wrong learning  due to experiences in early in life, that in turn create disordered and or distorted coping patterns and views on situations, and that in turn will become the (bad) tools used when facing new situations in life...  We all have some "distorted" patterns that are a result of bad experiences from childhood or whatnot that we too recycle...  The difference is when reaching the level of being able to be diagnosed with BPD you have a lot of them and they work in synergy...  But even for us, when we sometimes choose to work on our issues or distorted patterns in therapy or something else, the results there too will vary from person to person, regardless of the efficiency of the treatment used...  

Glad I could be of help! Keep posting, venting and learning about the disorder, but also don't forget YOU!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Best Wishes

Scout99
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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 09:21:01 AM »

Many thanks again scout. Again I can understand your feelings and relate to them. Many years ago our mental hospitals were closed down. This was due inpart to many being largely unchanged from the 19th century, bleak and desolate places. I am in agreement that these places were a form of abandonement and cruel in there use. However, I believe that the real motive was for financial reasons. As time has passed the only change from governments come in the limited places that are available for treatment with so many health care trusts and GP's fighting for a few beds. Further, many treatment centres are under time and financial pressure to resolve the few cases they deal with. As DBT has an average duration of 3 years but CBT is much shorter in duration. This leads to failures because CBT is found to be ineffective with regards to BPD. This is shown with the figures for drop-outs from therapy. Perhaps the politicians are the real culprits by burying their heads in the financial sand.

www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2006/targeted-therapy-halves-suicide-attempts-in-borderline-personality-disorder.shtml

I am enclosing a link to a research article that I recently came across with regards to DBT and other therapies.

Thaks again scout for your help and input.

Ian
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Junknown
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« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2014, 02:19:17 PM »

Can someone post this study you talk about in here? Or link it?

It would be really interesting to read it all and check out what were the criteria (inclusion and exclusion) they used to select their sample, its size, time the study took, kind of behavioural parameters analysed on the sample studied and so on than to talk in a theoretical way about wether or not they can recover (without even knowing what is the definition of recovery implied on this study).

Thanks to anyone who can provide the study.
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2014, 11:52:28 AM »

Is the recovery rate really that high? I thought the concencus was that they typically don't get better as most of them don't even think they have a problem.
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2014, 02:53:12 PM »

Is the recovery rate really that high? I thought the concencus was that they typically don't get better as most of them don't even think they have a problem.

Yeah, my psychiatrist tutor, when i was in psychiatry during a month during my internship (im a young doctor), even told me she hated them. That they gave her an inner feeling of repulse. So, if she could she avoided them. And said that if i ever was near one would feel something like that.

Guess what, i didn't feel that. In fact when she said that i was already dating a borderline which lasted almost 2 years. Quite ironic, the person she said would repulse me actually actracted me. Thats got to say something about my self and my inner problems. I got attracted by someone which most normal people don't feel atracted to.

Mine at the end went to therapy. But guess what, so far has had 2 boyfriends, and got pregnant of the last, having a miscarriage while she was already married and living with her husband (this after i ended it with her, she went to therapy and got herself a new boyfriend in 1 week). Not much success rate on her therapy, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Anyone got the study? Please share if you do!
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2014, 03:06:33 PM »

I thought the concencus was that they typically don't get better as most of them don't even think they have a problem.

Those closest and most experienced with the disorder see this as more of the problem than insight.  This is not uncommon with evolving fields of medicine.  As Junknown can attetest, sat one time it was consensus that everyone with Aids will die even know there was evidence to the contrary of emerging effective treatments. The same was true of hepatitis at one time.

This is pretty well explained here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/treatment-borderline-personality-disorder

It would be really interesting to read it all and check out what were the criteria (inclusion and exclusion) they used to select their sample, its size, time the study took, kind of behavioural parameters analysed on the sample studied and so on than to talk in a theoretical way about wether or not they can recover (without even knowing what is the definition of recovery implied on this study).

It was a prospective cohort study sponsored by the NIMH.  The purpose was to elucidate the natural history of the disorder.

These participants were the worst of the worst - 3/4 had multiple breakdowns/hospitalizations.  This was not a measurement of a 12 year regimen of therapy - rather it was akin to putting transmitters on wild bears and tracking their natural explorations over a period of years.

Here is the 6 year interval report: https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/Zanarinietal2005.pdf
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2014, 03:53:01 PM »

Excerpt
Those closest and most experienced with the disorder see this as more of the problem than insight.  This is not uncommon with evolving fields of medicine.  As Junknown can attetest, sat one time it was consensus that everyone with Aids will die even know there was evidence to the contrary of emerging effective treatments. The same was true of hepatitis at one time.

This is pretty well explained here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/treatment-borderline-personality-disorder

Yes, its true. There was a lot of evolution on many medical disorders in the past which changed the way those diseases naturally evolved during the course of time. From acute eventually fatal diseases on the short, medium term we switched to long term/almost chronic diseases. Altough dependent on drugs which come with side effects of their own.

With a disorder like borderline the main problem i see is their recognition of the problem. My girlfriend in some of her "lucid" times said to me she had a dark side, hurt people, that i was better without her, that she was manipulative and knew how to hurt others, that she couldn't be faithful.

But, after those times passed by, she would be back to the same she was before. She couldn't admit her problem to the root. She said it had to do with her rape by her brother, that she had trouble with men but she couldnt admit the problem as it really was. At this time i had discovered all the truth about her lies and cheating and i knew i couldn't be with her anymore (i didn't knew what was true or a horrible distortion of reality/lie).

She lacked insight... And it's horrible not to have insight for a disease she had, that hurted her and the ones closest to her so badly.

There are other mental disorders which give the person affected a lack of insight. If this lack of insight is bypassed i agree there must be an extremely high percentage of borderlines on the way to their cure.

As it's said on the link you provided "There is a significant difference between the number of those who would benefit from treatment and the number of those who are treated.". I understand this is a huge problem. They need to aknowledge their problem and seek help and really commit to it on the long term.

If those people studied on those papers were borderlines who recognized their problem to the root, looked for help and really commited to it i would agree that such a high treatment sucess rate would be probable. But i guess those would be the minority.

The worst cases wouldnt be on that group that looked for help and was studied. Like my GF they would probably deny the problem, refuse to accept it, paint you black if you suggested it and even if they asked for help they would go there not being sincere to their therapeut about what the problem really was making it difficult for him to spot their disease.

Im merely speculating as i just read this article you linked and haven't read the bibliography yet. But its a plausible (i think) possibility i put here. Maybe those were the borderlines more prone to reabilitation.

Thanks for sharing the link you all were debating.

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