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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: "We're dating anyway, right?"  (Read 2290 times)
lostoc
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« on: November 08, 2010, 10:38:17 AM »

I have been helping my stbxBPD find a car, because she is a child and can't do anything on her own. I do want her to be safe, and also not overspend on a car because that just isn't fair. So I went out and test drove some cars with her.

Later in the day she said "Why don't we hang out more to try to fix things? I mean we're dating right now anyway."

Pretty weird how me just trying to help out makes it seem like we're "dating."

6 months can't come fast enough. Let's go divorce court move your butts!
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 12:18:22 PM »

*sigh - oh, lost, you know you gotta be careful... .just sayin', if my make-believe husband handed me divorce papers, but then was helping me find a car, i'd have trouble untangling those signals... .

she wants to believe, badly, that she can get you back, so ANY kindness you show her will be seen as a hole she can get through.

her new life is not your responsibility - she's got to do this on her own. that's why you're getting a divorce, right?
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TonyC
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 12:29:41 PM »

I have been helping my stbxBPD find a car, because she is a child and can't do anything on her own.

lost ... this thinking is what brought you here... .

we are caretakers... .and we clean up... do for... etc etc... .

then we are destroyed... cause they then throw unacceptables... at us... .

you are sending dangerous signals here... .your supposed to not really be speaking... unless it pertains to a divorce issue... .and even that should be handled by lawyers... .

me reading your post... tells me that there is more to this... .than you being a concerned guy?

QUESTIONS TIME!

do you talk about it and go in the same car?

is this followed up with dinner or lunch or a drink?

are you enjoying this... .feeling needed... , required?

are you enjoying spending time with her.?

the big question... .

if she told you about a car at a car dealer and you said ok im free tues night... and she said...

i dont need you there a freind of mine... is checkin it out for me... .

how would you feel about that?

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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 03:57:36 PM »

You're both right. I need to back off. I am having trouble with No Contact I guess. It feels foreign to not "be there" when she needs things.

Sigh. I need to work on that.
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« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 04:01:30 PM »

you dont need to do anything... for us... you need to do for you.

but could you answer my questions... please
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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 04:12:24 PM »

Oh trust me, I'm not doing anything for anyone but me.

do you talk about it and go in the same car? - YES

is this followed up with dinner or lunch or a drink? - YES (no drinks, I don't drink)

are you enjoying this... .feeling needed... , required? - NO

are you enjoying spending time with her.? - NOO
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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 04:25:30 PM »

ok

do you talk about it and go in the same car? - YES not good thats what couples dois this followed up with dinner or lunch or a drink? - YES (no drinks, I don't drink)

not good thats what couples do...

are you enjoying this... .feeling needed... , required? - NO then dont...

are you enjoying spending time with her.? - NOO then dont


surprises you havent slept with her also... or did you?

your gonna have to break it off again... .even though your divorcing her...

you guys arent reading the same pages... be careful... your playin with fire... .
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 08:02:01 PM »

Excerpt
I have been helping my stbxBPD find a car, because she is a child and can't do anything on her own. I do want her to be safe, and also not overspend on a car because that just isn't fair. So I went out and test drove some cars with her.

How is she ever going to learn how to do things if you continually do them for her? If you want her to grow up and stop being a child, then let her grow up. The result would be that she takes responsibility for herself and not continue her "learned helplessness."

Excerpt
not overspend on a car because that just isn't fair.

Aristotle was one of the greatest philosophers. He knew that to touch a hot stove was better than listening to a hundred speeches about how not to get burned. Having her make her own decisions about a car IS fair. It is a learning experience for her- and good or bad, it determines her self-reliance. Self reliance means we all have to learn from our mistakes and misfortunes- whether or not they are determined by us- and the first step is making our own choices as to how we want to proceed.

Borderlines choose people to blame for their learned helplessness. The car you help test drive today will become a car that has "issues" tomorrow. The best way to protect yourself is to disengage and realize how you are being sucked into the disapproving "parent" role, the rescuer role. Nothing is going to change unless you stop yourself- she's lived her entire life this way.

If there is a fear that if you dont help, then someone else will fall into the trap of rescuing her- (and you are then out of the loop)- then you must address your fear and seek counsel for it. Eventually this WILL happen, especially if you are divorcing. It's better to have some control over this before you are unexpectedly hit by the introduction to this person and get blindsided in triangulation (read definition).

She's never going to get on her own two feet if you don't detach- and isn't that what you want? Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 08:07:25 PM »

Just a post script: this was written nearly a year and a half ago by a poster named Kinetix. Thought you'd like it.


"I've attempted "friendship" with my BPD ex for the past 3-4 months.   It really doesnt work just like a relationship with her didn't work either.  It's so damn one sided... with her constant need to talk about herself and only herself without bothering to even ask how i am doing or even caring what is going on in my life.  She saw me as there to "fill her needs" and thats about it.    having all this knowledge on BPD doesnt do any good because even knowing that how they are going to be and how it can never be normal is only going to be extremely frustrating when you try to get the upperhand but never can.

It seems to be that when you invest so much time(years?) energy into a relationship like this, just moving on and trying to leave a BPD just seems unbearable...  i know because this is how i felt during this time, it really didn't matter that i had a lot of knowledge on BPD,  you really can not do anything to fix or better the relationship.   I have tried so many times and have taken major hits on my personal needs but it only left me bitter and angry. Part of the reason why i attempted friendship after a long and complicated break up is because i was left without any closure and looking past all the horrible things she put me through became easier once it seemed that there was a chance at any sort of normalcy.   It seems insane that i could somehow look past this and try to be her friend after only a few months... but i did.  

if there is anyone attempting friendship with an exBPD i highly doubt it can work.  All the problems you have had in your relationship will come back.   Even if you think you are somehow armed with knowledge on "validation" or BPD techniques nothing you do will work.


This is how my friendship with my BPDex has gone.

and what problems will come out of it...

She treated me nicely for a few months actually most of the time this was the case.   However, the friendship was completely one sided as i've already explained.  They do not care about you like you care about them, you're just their to fill their needs or someone who will listen to them complain about their problems and that is it.

You may end up settling for this and not even want to bother mentioning this huge issue because youa re just happy she is still in your life.  but eventually it will really get to you and you will be left bitter and angry, and what will happen is you will eventually bring these issues to the table which will only lead to devaluation.

During the time when we talk or hang out without any arguments for a period of weeks of any kind she will provoke me into an argument that will come completely out of nowhere. They really are masters at pressing buttons, if you are like me being in a relationship with a borderline has taught you to not let certain things get under your skin, but i promise you eventually they will find a way to get so far under your skin that you cant help but sink down to their level. and it will lead to devaluation.

if you're like me you still have feelings for this person but you really question how you could after all this madness.   eventually you start to wonder if you will ever get back together...  No you will not,  I MEAN there is a possibility  but it is highly unlikely.  being friends with your BPDex will lead to your silent suffering.  you may bring up how you still have feelings to your borderline only to have them totally rejected or not welcomed at all.   but heres the kicker... she will still lead you on anyway and make you believe that you do have a chance of getting back together, but heh... if you dare bring it up she will act like you're the crazy one!


My theory is that once you have broken up with a borderline you are no longer safe in their eyes.  You have proven to have left already and will only leave again so they can not have you too close.  Close enough to be someone that they can talk to about their problems but that is about it.  They just wont trust you ever again.

The reason i'm writing this is because if you have broken up with a borderline and think you can have a healthy friendship with them, think again...

I go back to my point in that you really are playing a game you cant win and are basically playing with fire.   Every single problem you had with them will be there.  you're going to have a one sided friendship where the borderline doesnt see you as anything other than someone to fill their needs.  Eventually you will be devalued by the borderline and left picking up the peices,  you will beg and cry for answers only to be left with you questioning your own sanity.  

i mean really nothing works.  

you can be a very nice caring person to your borderline friend. your BPD will not show you any kindness.  i tried to be this person but it left me emotionally drained and extremely bitter.   Why?  because your BPD will not show any interest in you and only use you as a person to fill their needs.  you cant keep it up without going crazy.

and if you do keep this level of "perfect" around them and don't care how one sided it is, eventually the borderline will get sick of it and provoke you into a fight for no reason other than to sabotage the friendship because a borderline lives off conflict and anything else is foreign to them.

when the fighting starts one of you is walking away.  The borderline will leave you or you will finally have the will to say "you know what screw this im done"  but it's not that simple is it?   You will come crying back to the borderline to forgive you or the borderline will manipulate you back.   this is how it works and it will always be this cycle and nothing you do can change the outcome.

i'm trying my best to finally let go of this toxic person.  I just really can't take the pain that having her in my life brings me.  It honestly really hurts so much that i try my hardest to show that i really do care about her and tried to be a good friend but it will always be one sided.  

I really did try my best to make it work so i do not blame myself anymore for any of this, but anyway i just wanted to share my experience with "friendship" and yeah its pretty much exactly the same as being in a relationship, which both only lead to disaster... " -kinetix

(bold quotes addded by 2010)

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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 08:04:56 AM »

Dear 2010, thank you for your posts! They're amazing.

I have a question for you. kinetix said "My theory is that once you have broken up with a borderline you are no longer safe in their eyes.  You have proven to have left already and will only leave again so they can not have you too close.  Close enough to be someone that they can talk to about their problems but that is about it.  They just wont trust you ever again."

Well, I don't get this. After some time - one or two years - the r/s stops at the stage love you/hate you, want you/dont' want you anymore. I understand my ex more times tried to come back to me but immediately or after a while something inside of him changed. Something like love you hate you very, very fast. And I've also understood that's what he will always feel for me, this sort of crazy conflict. What I am asking you if is why? What is this mechanism? Why for one or two years the r/s works and let's say evolves, and then it stops at a stage which then stays always the same? It's true, nothing will ever work, everything always will be the same. What is this? The core of the disorder itself? Why he can't see me in a different and new way, but always as a result of this conflict?

Thanks
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 10:06:33 AM »

"She treated me nicely for a few months actually most of the time this was the case.   However, the friendship was completely one sided as i've already explained.  They do not care about you like you care about them, you're just their to fill their needs or someone who will listen to them complain about their problems and that is it."

This is exactly what happened in my case.  After months of no contact, he manipulated his way back into my life and now we are "friends" again.  I qualify "friends," because it not a true friendship.  It is a one-sided thing, just as kinetix has nicely described.  For example, he shared something that happened between him and a relative and after that exchange, I shared something equal in my life --an exchange with a relative-- the exact same share, only it was from my life, and he said, "Who is this person and why should I care about what happened here?"  I said, "I was sharing my life with you exactly as you share your life with me."   He seemed totally perplexed and did not understand at all why I felt the desire to share equally with him.  It is a foreign concept, something he just simply does not understand.  This does not make him an evil person. No, only a personality disordered person.  The world is full of people just like this.  The thing is, once reality hits and you realize that this person is simply incapable of mutual friendship, it's only natural to back away and begin to find other more mutual relationships where a genuine exchange can take place.  If we continue to expect that a person like this will finally wake up one day and practice mutuality, that is when we ourselves need to examine our own reality perceptions. 

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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2010, 05:16:15 PM »

Excerpt
I have been helping my stbxBPD find a car, because she is a child and can't do anything on her own. I do want her to be safe, and also not overspend on a car because that just isn't fair. So I went out and test drove some cars with her.

How is she ever going to learn how to do things if you continually do them for her? If you want her to grow up and stop being a child, then let her grow up. The result would be that she takes responsibility for herself and not continue her "learned helplessness."

Excerpt
not overspend on a car because that just isn't fair.

Aristotle was one of the greatest philosophers. He knew that to touch a hot stove was better than listening to a hundred speeches about how not to get burned. Having her make her own decisions about a car IS fair. It is a learning experience for her- and good or bad, it determines her self-reliance. Self reliance means we all have to learn from our mistakes and misfortunes- whether or not they are determined by us- and the first step is making our own choices as to how we want to proceed.

Borderlines choose people to blame for their learned helplessness. The car you help test drive today will become a car that has "issues" tomorrow. The best way to protect yourself is to disengage and realize how you are being sucked into the disapproving "parent" role, the rescuer role. Nothing is going to change unless you stop yourself- she's lived her entire life this way.

If there is a fear that if you dont help, then someone else will fall into the trap of rescuing her- (and you are then out of the loop)- then you must address your fear and seek counsel for it. Eventually this WILL happen, especially if you are divorcing. It's better to have some control over this before you are unexpectedly hit by the introduction to this person and get blindsided in triangulation (read definition).

She's never going to get on her own two feet if you don't detach- and isn't that what you want? Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Hi.  I hang out mostly on the divorce board, but things are slow there, so I go here, what I think of as the pre-divorce.  I hope I'm welcome, but I am quite the cynic.  This thread, and especially this post, got my attention.  I'm learning a lot about what 2010 is saying.  Learning the hard way, and late.  This is important stuff, and I have paid big buck$ to a therapist, when all I had to do is absorb stuff like this post.   This, and the TonyC stuff, is critical in my situation, and likely yours.  LOSTOC, YOU ARE AN ENABLER.  That is not good for you, your stbx or any kids watching.  The sooner you stop, the better you will be.   Like having to pee in the middle of the night, all comfy in those sheets, but it's not going away.  The sooner you get up and pee, the better you will feel and the longer you will have to sleep.  Overcome whatever immediate need you are satisfying by helping her buy that car, and just say no, firmly.   One point of dissent I would like to raise with 2010 and TonyC: they say that by not helping her, you will teach her that she needs to do it on her own.  In my case, my stbxw will never learn, not without me, not with someone else, not with the world's best administrative assistant, not with Marsha Linehan, herself, right there in the flesh, with her 24/7.  She will never get it.  My withholding help will not encourage her to help herself.  She just can't.  So, let's all be honest here:  you shouldn't help/rescue/encourage/enable/caretake/buttwipe, etc. because it's not good for you.   That's it.  To suggest that you are helping her help herself by not being there for her is a big, fat fiction.   She may never get it, regardless of what you do.  So, stop with the enabling and deal with the pity.  I hope this tough love doesn't offend.  

She's never going to get on her own two feet if you don't detach- and isn't that what you want? Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

She's never going to get on her own two feet even if you do detach, but that's not your problem.  

~GD
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2010, 06:20:41 AM »

Bumping this up to get others' comments on the enabling, and to see lostoc's response, reaction and thoughts.
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2010, 07:40:40 AM »

Oh, I can so empathize with you. x  I am still here with my BPDh and pwBPD are always so needy that we do feel bad for them and our patch everything up and help everyone personalities just dive right in.  One of the biggest things for all of us is that we want to help them, save them.  It is good that you are now looking at these things.  NC is what is going to save you from being recycled remember it is about you and even at your weakest most caring moments you need to steer clear of her.  Toxic is the only way to describe these people and it sounds horrible to say just to let her flounder but it is the only way to care for yourself.  They will suck the life out of you and then when they're done they will move on as if you never existed.  Learn your lessons from this and move on.  She can't be your friend and you can't be hers. Unfortunately, that may be the hardest part because on some level we all still care about them.  Fortunately mine is such a hit_ most of the time it makes it easier to think of leaving but I catch myself in his weaker moments being draw back in to the idea that he is sick and needs help.  Just our nature I suppose but I definitely have a lot less empathy as I wait for him to switch over to his angry obnoxious self again.    Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2010, 09:07:06 AM »

I tried the friend thing for awhile, it was totally one sided. We would be on the phone, me listening, him talking. All about him, literally, I never said anything, he spoke one time for 45 minutes without stoping. His childhood wounds, his take on his spirituality, my behavior that led to the break up. It doesn't work.
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 10:08:53 AM »

Thanks for the comments and thoughts. I hate that this has to go against who I am. I feel like NC is "ignoring" a person and it's cold. BPD or not I don't like just tossing people aside. Call it codependency, I call it being human. Regardless there is no easy to way to handle this other than NC.

The LAST thing I want to do is send mixed signals for both of our sakes. I thought I was clear to her when I said we are divorcing and I did not want to be with her anymore. It must be weird having a disease that makes you ignore the facts and only listen to what you WANTED to hear.

Like I've said before, if she said to me "F-U, I never want to talk to you again." I'd be relieved. Now I just need to be the one to do it.
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2010, 10:24:52 AM »

Much like in co-dependency (if the person was an alcoholic or Narcotics addict)  You must practice "tough love".  It's tough but you are only doing that person a favor as well as yourself.  You are not selfish by practicing NC... .  It'll be better for both in the end.  The longer you prolong the relationship (by helping the helpless), you prolong growth in yourself and that person as well.  It's not your fault they are the way they are.  I'm currently seperated and in about to begin the divorce process.  I only have contact when absolutely necessary because of mutual property.  I thank God for opening my eyes and having the strength to turn away.
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2010, 10:33:17 AM »

INHO - dealing with a pwBPD turns us from partner to caretaker.  It is that simple, it happens over time and even unknowingly, but we all begin to guard them from the consequences to their own actions.  We do this because we love them, we then may realize their is "something really wrong here" and we then do our part of continuing the dance.

Regarding tough love as chief mentioned - the tough love should be love for ourselves when we are disengaging.  These people have hurt us immensely or we would not be leaving or forced to leave - it is tough love with ourselves to STAY GONE.

If you are trying to continue a relationship (due to kids, or you want to try again) there is a huge difference between tough love and boundries.  According to Tami Green who has recovered from BPD and is really at the forefront for survivors - treating a pwBPD with tough love will not work.  See tools on staying board if you need to stay in contact with them.

So, to quote 2010 from one of the best posts ever - Put the Ding Dong Down!
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2010, 10:48:40 AM »

... .I hate that this has to go against who I am. I feel like NC is "ignoring" a person and it's cold. BPD or not I don't like just tossing people aside. Call it codependency, I call it being human. ... .

don't you see? being who we are is how we got into this mess! you must change your actions and behaviors if you wish to see a change. compared to changing yourself, serving her divorce papers must have been cake. it's a bitter pill to swallow, but we all have to own up to our roles in these relationships. otherwise, who knows, there's another disordered relationship waiting in the wings for you, and me, and everyone else here

(just so you know, i'm talking tough to you, but i'm really talking tough to me. i need this constant reminder that the status quo sucks, and if anyone's gonna change it, it's gotta be me, all the way through, inside and out)

take care,

morn
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2010, 11:43:58 AM »

For those dealing with pity, competing emotions, enabling, co-dependency and the like, check out the posts from DreamGirl on this thread.  You will be glad you did:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=129704.0;all
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2010, 03:08:51 PM »

Thanks for the comments and thoughts. I hate that this has to go against who I am. I feel like NC is "ignoring" a person and it's cold. BPD or not I don't like just tossing people aside. Call it codependency, I call it being human. Regardless there is no easy to way to handle this other than NC.

The LAST thing I want to do is send mixed signals for both of our sakes. I thought I was clear to her when I said we are divorcing and I did not want to be with her anymore. It must be weird having a disease that makes you ignore the facts and only listen to what you WANTED to hear.

Like I've said before, if she said to me "F-U, I never want to talk to you again." I'd be relieved. Now I just need to be the one to do it.

Dear lostoc, I think that there can be many ad different reasons why we don’t want to go NC: being too cold, even selfish. Maybe we would like to keep a r/s with them, no matter how, as friends, I don’t know. Maybe we want to demonstrate to ourselves that we can do it no matter how much hard and difficult it is. Maybe we don’t want to break up, maybe we don’t want to start a new life, a life without them.

But, NC is about us. If we can’t handle the r/s, if we inside of us only want these people back, if we can’t be friends, if we can’t have a normal r/s with them, well there’s nothing left then NC. The worst thing of all is that without NC we all keep wasting our lives, still thinking they’ll come back and we’ll be happy again. And as a consequence we don’t fall in love with someone different who might deserve our love.

Without NC we lose the chance to start a new life, the life that we deserve.

About them, why talking about? I am sure that the r/s is no good to them too. R/s like these which made them relive ancient trauma are never good. Maybe if they had therapy, they would deal with the disease and maybe recovery, but I’m not so sure, and, what would be the price for us? Could we stand it? I don’t think so, we all here know that we can’t stand it anymore.

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