How to respond to being painted black: I get scolded for our toddler's behavior

[Chosen]

You know how parents tend to say "it's MY kid" when the kid is good, and "it's YOUR kid" when the kid is bad?  Well, I get a lot of the second from uBPDh, and I don't know how to respond to them.

For example, our toddler will be throwing a fit, as kids do. (but H sometimes adds fuel to the fire by shouting at her then expecting her to be calm and respond to him at once.  Of course she would be crying and not responding, and he will become more and more pushy.  I have at times reminded him that while I think it's necessary to scold a child- and I do that often as well, sometimes scaring her a lot- he has to let her cry and be upset for a while after being disciplined, THEN after she is calmer he can try to get her to do whatever he was getting her to do).  Then H would say to me "she is just like you- unreasonable, proud and selfish etc etc".  Thankfully, he says this behind her back, just to me.

I know that because she is misbehaving (and in his mind I'm always the "black" one anyway- the terrible, selfish, proud, demanding wife), he is put her in the same "category" as me, but isn't that quite harsh for a toddler?  And also, at that moment, she is the one misbehaving, not me, but I get scolded (yet again) for my "mistakes".  That means every time I do something he doesn't like, he scolds me, and every time our child does something he doesn't like, he scolds me too because she behaves "just like me".  

I don't really know how to respond to that, so usually I just apologise yet again for my behaviour (mind you, I have already apologised for that before, when I actually "misbehaved", e.g. invalidated him), but somehow I feel that this just makes the whole cycle repeat after a while.  Any suggestions on how I can respond next time, because "next time" will inevitable come up very soon?  Thanks!

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[Radcliff]

I'm sorry to hear you're having parenting issues.  A toddler is enough trouble without being criticized for how you handle the situations!

Can you tell us a little bit about your toddler and what behavior situations you're having with her?  Are there any special challenges with her?

One of the first things that comes to mind when you talk about apologizing for your behavior is whether or not you're validating the invalid.  :)o you believe in everything you're apologizing for?  If not, that takes a toll on you and the relationship.  Can you give us an example of a particular situation?

WW

[Chosen]

Can you tell us a little bit about your toddler and what behavior situations you're having with her?  Are there any special challenges with her?

It's just the usual "terrible twos" tantrums, like doing everything opposite of what she's told (you tell her to go potty, she runs away and shouts no, then when you finally get her on the potty, she refuses to leave; refusing to drink water- she somehow hates drinking water, not doing stuff she's asked to when you ask nicely, thus we have to resort to reprimanding her etc.  Nothing very serious, but frustrates us nonetheless.)

One of the first things that comes to mind when you talk about apologizing for your behavior is whether or not you're validating the invalid.  Do you believe in everything you're apologizing for?

So he will link up these incidents with stuff that happened with me, e.g. he asks me to do something and I refused/ did something completely different, and he will say our child learns it from me.  So I find myself apologising for the same incident/ my behaviour again and again, and it always get brought up again as our child's behaviour will trigger him to complain about me.

[braveSun]

So he will link up these incidents with stuff that happened with me, e.g. he asks me to do something and I refused/ did something completely different, and he will say our child learns it from me.  So I find myself apologising for the same incident/ my behaviour again and again, and it always get brought up again as our child's behaviour will trigger him to complain about me.

This is catching my attention. He links your child's behavior (toddler learning to say 'no' to what you are doing when you refuse to do something he asks you to do?

That's a tough one to detangle... .

First I would try to explore what your own feelings might be for you to apologize to him again and again.

Can you give us a specific example of where he would say your child learns this 'like you'?
It might be easier with an example.

Brave

[Radcliff]

he asks me to do something and I refused/ did something completely different, and he will say our child learns it from me.  So I find myself apologising for the same incident/ my behaviour again and again, and it always get brought up again as our child's behaviour will trigger him to complain about me.

Can you give us a specific example of a time when you "refused/did something completely different," including how he made his request for you to do something a certain way (or if it was a standing "rule", what you were "supposed to do," what you did, and how you responded when he criticized?  Depending on details, there are a variety of ways to approach things so they might go or at least feel better.

WW

[Chosen]

An example of this is:

Incident 1:
I am back home from work.  He tells me to go get a shower first, but I would rather spend the time with the kids, so I refused and said I will shower after the kids are asleep.  While I know he did it with a good intention (I'm hot and sweaty at the end of the day), it wasn't what I wanted at the time.  He saw it as refusing/ invalidating him I guess.

Incident 2:
Child is supposed to go potty.  Refused and "escaped".  After she's eventually done with potty, she refused to leave and insisted on sitting there.  To him, it is disobedience.

Both incidents happen all the time, although I'm trying to see beyond his "instructions" and look at his intention, and do whatever he suggests because I know he truly wants what is best for me, even though he seems to be unable to consider what it is that I want at that moment.  But then when incidents related to our kid happens, he will often bring up incidents that happen with me, then liken our behaviour and say she is just like me, how can a child learn when her mother is like that etc.

Of course, he doesn't mention the many times when I made suggestions to him and he point blank just didn't take them.  It's just that I don't feel as invalidated as he does... . 

[isilme]

He is having trouble with two, autonomous, other individuals in the house.  BPD wants conformity, and honestly, I think it's a little like The Blob, where you are part of him, the child is part of him, so having separate wants, needs, and desires, or even feelings hurts him. 

His hive-mind idea of family is threatened by you not wanting to shower when he thinks it's the best thing to do.  Yes.  It's invalidating for you to even have emotions that differ from his.  It means you "must" think his emotions are wrong, that he is wrong, and that can't be, so YOU must be wrong, the child must be wrong, and since he can't possibly have any negative input into a child's rearing that MUST be your fault, too.

Shame and blame avoidance, projection, all to reconcile perceived invalidation.

Of course, he doesn't mention the many times when I made suggestions to him and he point blank just didn't take them.  It's just that I don't feel as invalidated as he does... .

It's not quid pro quo.  he has BPD, you don't.  His feelings overwhelm him.  He can't be bothered to think about how YOU feel when he invalidates you - you were wrong in the first place in his mind. 

1 - I agree the cycle needs to stop.  I had 2 BPD parents, and yes, they fought in front of me, telling me whose fault it was I was such a rotten kid.  I remember things like this all the way back to about age 2. 

When he scolds you, what do you do? 

Incident 1:
I am back home from work.  He tells me to go get a shower first, but I would rather spend the time with the kids, so I refused and said I will shower after the kids are asleep.  While I know he did it with a good intention (I'm hot and sweaty at the end of the day), it wasn't what I wanted at the time.  He saw it as refusing/ invalidating him I guess.

This is just you exerting your right to make your own choices about when to shower.  You are not a robot.  You are not there to follow orders.  You, as an adult, get to choose when to do things. 

How did this exchange go?  Did he scold you for not following orders?  How did you respond?  Or was this just brought up later as his showing the correlation in his mind between you "disobeying" and the toddler?

Incident 2:
Child is supposed to go potty.  Refused and "escaped".  After she's eventually done with potty, she refused to leave and insisted on sitting there.  To him, it is disobedience.

How about he learn to ignore her when she isn't hurting anything?  She can sit on the potty for hours unless someone else needs it.  The crisis was getting her in there and on it.  Once that's passed, who cares how long she sits?  You know if you ignore her, she will get bored faster and come find you?  The act of making a thing about it encourages her to keep doing it.

Children are not toys to be ordered about and obey perfectly.  Sorry, this was how I was raised, and I can just see my dad, frustrated I was not a perfect soldier (career Army) and that I messed up, made mistakes. 

Likewise, spouses are not soldiers, either, with the pwBPD as a general, meant to oby their whims and wishes, without question.  H wants this from me at times, and unless he's full-on raging, where I just need to find a way away, I tell him that is not always possible, he does not always know all the details about how to do something, what's needed, and when.

Myself, I get frustrated, because I do pretty much all housework yardwork, pet care, car care, etc. PLUS I work full time.  H works full time.  But he likes to try to micromanage what I am doing at home, wanting the house to be magically clean, but for me, as his comfort blankie, to be in the room with him, quiet, but in the room.  He expects things to work perfectly on the first try, doesn't understand when I am working to re-hook up a computer system with new components there will be trial and error.  He doesn't understand I can have a brain fart and pick up one wrong item out of 50 at the store.  He sees me picking up the wrong coffee creamer by accident as "insubordination" or "being upitty".  Because, you know, mistakes aren't real.  They are just a result of either being lazy or not caring about him.  Or outright mean.  (This was my night last night).  He feels bad/guilty about not being able to (and choosing not to) help around the house, so he has to find fault with my efforts instead of simply saying thanks for doing everything.

Here's a question - who do the kids run to most often for affection?  Who interacts with them most, and most consistently?  If it's you, I bet he is feeling guilt, hurt, and upset by this, and can't understand when you are the ogre, scolding kids who are crying (telling someone to stop crying never actually makes them stop crying, I don't care how old they are), he is not exactly encouraging closeness with them.  This might be a factor in needing to prove you wrong about parenting, and blame any child-acting-out on you.

I agree with not apologizing for things that are invalid.  When H accuses me of things that are not true, it's hard.  Depending on the Defcon rating, I try to see if I can clumsily try SET to say, "I understand you are upset... .I find it upsetting, too, this is what's happening and how we need to address it."  Usually, I suck and JADE instead tho.   

Can you ignore some of the statements and simply not react?  Just like a toddler (sadly) pwBPD get a form of emotional enegery from us when we react to their accusations.  If we deny them that feedback, sometimes they ahve to find a new track to follow.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

isilme , I think you are spot on. I 100% agree.

[Radcliff]

I, too, think isilme has a very good read on this.

Clearly telling you when to take a shower is not his prerogative.  But perhaps you could validate him.  You could really lay it on thick, saying how much you appreciate that he's asking you to take care of yourself, that it's a very tempting idea, you're glad he suggested it, but you're anxious to see the kids and will take a supershort shower after they go to bed so you can rush into his arms (I'm getting a little dramatic here for effect, but you get the idea  ).

OK, I was hoping I could resist the urge, but I'm going to have to tell a potty story.  When D19 and D17 were D4 and D2, we were potty training D2.  We tried giving her stickers ("potty stickers" but they didn't work.  Finally we decided to haul out the big guns and used M&Ms.  One M&M for #1, two M&M's for #2.  It was very effective.  For some reason that made sense at the time, we didn't want D4 to be upset that D2 got an M&M and she didn't, so we gave her M&M's too when D2 went to the potty.  This is where the law of unintended consequences comes in.  One day, we discovered D4 handing D2 a glass of water, and coaching her as she drank it, saying "2, don't you feel like you have to pee now?"  We just about fell over.  Maybe if you try M&M's on your daughter and your husband, everyone will fall into line?  (This does not represent the official view of bpdfamily.com   )

WW

[Chosen]

Thanks isilme for your detailed reply, and other replies too.  H expects everybody to listen to him and do exactly what he says, despite him often saying he doesn't care.  And it's not just for children.  It's really for everybody around him.  Like his parents.  Like me.  His mum once said to him in a joking manner that he would give us between A and B to choose from, and whatever we choose, he would eventually decide on C (and then he would claim he's let us choose).  I laughed when she said this, because this is exactly what he does to everybody.  I guess everybody around him can see it, but he thinks he allows us a lot of freedom to choose.  And guess what his reaction was?  He basically exploded on his mum and I.  He told his mum horrible things, and in a sense I'm "glad" that he doesn't just do it to me... .but of course don't wish it on others too.

In this case, I don't know if validation will help?  Admittedly I'm bad in this area, but on certain days it seems like everything I do is invalidating to him, like my very existence is invalidating.  Just last night, he told me he's had one of the most terrible years of his life (what happened this year, aside that our sweet little baby is born?), and that he has a terrible marriage, etc.  Everything he says makes me want to cry but I chose to just shut those words out, because crying will make him complain even more and I just don't want to deal with that.  I prefer just not giving a response and let him go on for a bit. 

[isilme]

Everything he says makes me want to cry but I chose to just shut those words out, because crying will make him complain even more and I just don't want to deal with that.  I prefer just not giving a response and let him go on for a bit.

I'm sorry.  I think I can say I know the feeling.

I have to remind myself, and it's hard to do so, that his reality is governed by how he is feeling.  This is how he is emotionally and how he is physical.  If he is physically tired, stressed, or in pain, his emotions are worse than normal, so his overall outlook on ALL things are going to be negative.   It wears you down.

I too, choose not to challenge it, I see it as letting him have his say, and I try to have my say here.  I get sad when he can say one day I'm the best thing in his life, and then another day (or even a few hours later) tell me how I make him feel so embarrassed he hates leaving the house.

I try to not take the words of accusation seriously, and listen for the emotion being expressed, not his rationale for it.  Does that make sense?   

I hear him saying he's mad - I try to not listen to or allow hurt from him blaming it all on me, especially if I can tell he's been boiling over for hours before the conversation.  Sadly, our greater emotional control means we will have to eat our feelings or put them somewhere other than in their faces.

And their lesser emotional control means they are often not aware enough in the moment of duress to NOT throw everything at us, regardless of what the real root cause of their disordered feeling is.

Validation - it's not a one size fits all tool.  I can see agreeing when the toddler is actually being naughty, but there are levels.  Some toddler behavior needs correction, some needs to be ignored until they learn it won't get them attention, and some needs praise, or is meant to be playful and they need to be directed to better ways to play.  I'm not a mom, scared to death of it based on how I was raised, I just make guesses on helping raise nieces and nephews as to what worked and what made them act out more.

DO:

"Yes, I agree when she doesn't sit in her high chair at dinner she needs a timeout.  How long do you think is good?" 

"I know, little ones can be exhausting, and it can be frustrating constructively teaching them how to listen and when to obey.  It makes me tired, too."

But don't validate things like "you are right, she was allowed 5 minutes to potty and now it's 7 minutes, she needs to be yelled at."  "She didn't come to me the instant I called, she needs a scolding."

I think the tool might be SET - Sympathy for his feelings, Empathy for his feelings, and THEN you can state your truth.  I am working on this - maybe others WITH kids can give some examples of SET in communicating about child behavior and discipline to their BPD spouses.

H expects everybody to listen to him and do exactly what he says, despite him often saying he doesn't care.  And it's not just for children.  It's really for everybody around him.  Like his parents.  Like me.

Again, he sees you ALL as extensions of himself.  HE is missing personal boundaries of self.  Who is feels he is tied into who YOU ALL are.  So a misbehaving child, a mother or wife who fail to act exactly along his ideas of how you should, he can't comprehend it.  You are a toy, moving around on your own.  It defies his brain. 

I am curious if his mom sees this in him - are there any reasons to think his upbringing was a cause for the lack of development that leads to BPD?  It seems to be a perceived or real episode of neglect where the child never forms certain skills, like self-soothing, or the belief everyone won't just up and abandon them. 

[Chosen]

I am curious if his mom sees this in him - are there any reasons to think his upbringing was a cause for the lack of development that leads to BPD?  It seems to be a perceived or real episode of neglect where the child never forms certain skills, like self-soothing, or the belief everyone won't just up and abandon them. 

Definitely.  He never had proper parental role models growing up.  His dad cheated on his mum, gambled to bankruptcy (that's why whenever I'm being painted black- which is always- I'm "just like his dad", and his mum was (and is) a doormat who stayed with him.  They're still together.  It's funny how he sees his mum- he doesn't have much respect for him generally because she's a doormat, but since she is the "victim", and also somebody has to be "white", she's the "white" one (compared with his dad I guess). 

He tells me all the time how he was forced to care for himself because nobody cared enough about his wellbeing (because he felt that his mum should have left his dad so he doesn't continue to hurt the family, yet she didn't), how he had to make all the decisions for himself and his family... .

I guess it's quite clear that this upbringing taught him to be the authoritarian person he is today, and he doesn't trust other people's decisions.  But the problem is how to undo this belief and this behaviour... .and I'm at a loss for methods.

[isilme]

But the problem is how to undo this belief and this behaviour... .and I'm at a loss for methods.

Upbringing is part of it, but I too, was neglected horribly and watched my parents abuse each other and me, but I don't feel I am authoritarian.,  That is just the uncompromising nature of BPD.  He can't be wrong - the be wrong is to have to paint himself black.  It's far easier to believe the entire world is wrong than face that.

If you can look at it as a process that continues for the rest of your lives together, instead of how some come here hoping for a quick-"cure", I think you're going to do well.  This is also a realistic idea to hold onto for even non-BPD marriages.  You aren't stuck as who you were when you met, married, or for the decades you stay together.  You each grow and change and have to adapt to each other for better or for worse. 

Slowly, but consistently, you will need to find boundaries that work for you, in your house, that protects you and your children. 

And a boundary is not necessarily something you tell him as a way to modify or control HIM.  It's YOU picking a way to remove yourself and kids from distressing situations.  The end result, over time, IS that he modifies his behaviors, but you are not trying to control him, you are simply not allowing him to dictate your feelings or allowing yourself to be yelled at.  Once he no longer gets a response that goes along with "the script", and he no longer gets whatever emotional gratification or venting he's used to, he HAS to change his mode of operations.  Over time, he CAN learn to be less authoritarian.  And you will have to pick and choose the battles. 

H started ranting today in the car about his ideas why the lot next door was still empty (all the fault of greedy real estate agents, even though this lot is not even in the hands of real estate agents) - it's simple - the deadbeat owners won't sell it, and won't pay the City and are meth heads and who knows where they are at the moment.  But, it was not worth it to even comment, chime in, to agree or disagree.  I just let him ramble.  I took no harm from it, it was not worth my time or energy to try to correct it.  Are there times when you might be able to step back, let him ramble is it'snot hurting you or the kids?  Or simply refrain from being seen as challenging him?  Tone and word choices can make a lot of difference between validation and invalidation. 

Some people see boundaries as ultimatums - "stop yelling or I leave!"  And for some people, saying, "I am leaving so you can cool off and we can actually talk when you are calm and I get back," works.  For me, that would just increase the fighting.  I find a way to leave, but make no statements about it. 

Can you maybe think of one thing he does you can try to set a boundary around?  Start small, simple, so you can get teh hang of it.  It's very hard (and scary) to change how you want to react. 

[Chosen]

I never expected any quick fix, and indeed I see it as a process of adapting to one another in a relationship.  I tell myself all the time that other "normal" relationships need both parties to get used to working around each other as well, and ours is just like that (although other relationships probably need a lot less work, I try not to dwell on this point so as to keep my spirits up).

Some people see boundaries as ultimatums - "stop yelling or I leave!"  And for some people, saying, "I am leaving so you can cool off and we can actually talk when you are calm and I get back," works.  For me, that would just increase the fighting.  I find a way to leave, but make no statements about it. 

I'm like that that too.  I can't openly express my boundary, because, as you said, boundaries are for us and not for them.  For my h, he doesn't respect my boundaries, and there would be no use trying to convince him otherwise.  I choose to pick my battles too, and sometimes I just let him rant on and keep my response short so as to minimise the amount of possible triggers in my wordings.  Compared to a few years ago, when I first came here, there's a lot less FOG (although I admit when he dysregulates I still get pretty scared), but it is still on the whole very tiring to maintain the relationship.

[isilme]

Compared to a few years ago, when I first came here, there's a lot less FOG (although I admit when he dysregulates I still get pretty scared), but it is still on the whole very tiring to maintain the relationship.

Sounds like you've made some good progress - it's all baby steps.  It takes time, and yes, when they go off, it's always going to be disturbing, I think.  If it wasn't I think we'd have hit a point where we are totally numb, and what was left of the relationship would be gone.  

Easier said than done, but if you're feeling broken down, you need some sort of break, however, you can make one happen.  If you both work, see if you can stay home a day and get some rest.  If you're home most of the day, but have the kids, see if a relative can give you a mommy's day out, or even make use of a daycare for just a few hours (I have a friend who easily stresses, and she ash to do this when her chronic pain and stress get too high).  I'm not sure what will work for you, but we all need time to recharge.  I know it's hard.  My batteries always seem to be at 50% at best.