Please help me re high-functioning BPD and an interesting twist

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I hope we have not lost nova.

Absolutely!  I did not intend to hijack your thread.  I know we are all just searching for answers and happiness.  I hope you find both!

[downandin]

I hope we have not lost nova.

Absolutely!  I did not intend to hijack your thread.  I know we are all just searching for answers and happiness.  I hope you find both!

[Newton]

novaguy ... .  I can well appreciate your frustration... .  my ex was high functioning and had a few of these epiphany moments whilst we were together... .  

Those carrots dangled in front of me gave me hope... .  temporarily.  Perhaps in those moments of lucidity she really was aware of how serious her issues were, perhaps she was just saying what I needed to hear at that moment in time (she actually stated that is what she was doing months later). Either way the toxicity between us was increasing on a monthly basis... .  

It took a good T to snap me back to reality and to look at the pattern of her behaviour... .  rather than focussing on the potential validity of her words... .  things became clearer, much clearer when I adopted this method.

It's a clumsy phrase but in my philosophy studies it was referred to as a "word to world match up"... .  ie/ are her words matching up with your world?... .  


downandin... .  I hear ya!... .  the tools here work... .  to an extent... .  and they take a LOT of time and effort for them to become natural. (well they did for me)... .  that shows the enormity of the task ahead, and the level of dysfunction we have/are dealing with.

Please consider starting a new thread here on "undecided" so we can all give your situation the time and thought it deserves    I for one had the very same "you don't love me" convos... .    

[maria1]

Yes/ apologies for moving away from novaguy here.

Nova guy- this is a very enlightening and challenging thread. The answers have been difficult I think. I have been thinking about your situation a lot. I made the choice not to stay in my relationship because I had to choose to save myself.

The hope you talk about is, for me, a type of addiction I have been hooked on all my life. It's an addiction to hope/ to something just out of reach. It's a way of not facing my own reality and my own pain. I never even realised the pain was there before the BPD relationship.

I'm only just coming to grips with this realisation, 6 months out of the relationship and through some difficult self examination.

I say all this because your post reminds me so much of me and your BPDex so much of my ex. I hope you are doing ok. X

[MaybeSo]

Downandin,

There is no offense whatsoever, and you are certainly not bothering anyone as far as I can tell!

I was hoping to ease your concerns and be clear that my reply was tailored to be specific to the original poster's musings, wonderings, situation and circumstances as I understood it. The original poster, Nova, if you are still here and reading,  seems in the early stages of a farily new relationship with less invested than many others, and it's his second r/s with a person he identifies as borderline, at least that's what I get from his post. So I am strongly encouraging Nova to accept what he is seeing right now,  early in, and  to make reality based choices right now based on his experience, and not based on what he hopes might happen in the future.  And to be curious about himself and why women with this personality style are appealing to him... .  what about it is working for him?  We have many on Leaving who have had multiple such relationships... .  it seems only logical to stop and wonder... .  why do I keep choosing or manifesting this kind of arrangement?  Right? It's not an indictment, it's a curiosity.  These are important questions, interesting questions... .  pwBPD are not the only interesting and complex people on earth... .  we are too!  We have permission to be  AT LEAST as curious about ourselves and our own inner workings as we are about the people we become inovled with.  Right?

I will be honest that I am very biased toward working on the Staying Board while you are IN a r/s like this. I spent almost all my time while IN a r/s with my ex on the Staying Board. It was at times very painful and yes, going through every single lesson takes time, but really, it's not like it was interrupting my tea with the Queen. If I had the time to be in such a challenging r/s, then I felt I had the time to figure out how to best navigate and take care of myself while in it. As I got better, the drama actually decreased, and so I actually had much more time, with more peace, from working on the Staying Board, than I did before I had the lessons.  Kids or no kids, at some level, it was a choice each day I was with this person.  He didn't have me tied up in his dungeon or anything like that.  The majority of the skills or lessons are  communication skills  or psychological, therapy- type principles that are applicable to ALL relationships, not just a romantic r/s with a person who has BPD. They cross over to ALL areas of life are extremely helpful. It would be good use of time, in or out of the relationship, to understand the skills tought on staying.  I went from feeling totally confused and depressed and trapped and spinning, to slowly getting back to feeling like myself again... .  and I have the people on the Staying Board to thank in large part for that.  I stayed there even when it was really hard and frustrating and sometimes I did take offense, and sometimes I probably was offensive, sometimes I took a break... .  but I stayed on that board anyway, because I knew on some level that what they were offering was my sense of balance back, to get outside the fog and get back to myself again, in or out of this crazy r/s. They challenged my Learned Helplessness and Stuckness and Depression and Victim-thinking... .  they helped me get back in touch with my ability to CHOOSE... .  and I thank god for that.  That's exactly what I wanted and needed.   I knew the answers resided with me, and not my ex.    The Staying Board was a life line for me in what was by far the most challenging experience I have had thus far in my life... .  and I'm 49 years old.  United for Now, Steph, Skip, Auspicious, aunaught, and many more... .  these people have been in the trenches, they are smart, they get it.  They have answers, they just aren't always the answers that are easy to hear or easy to accept.  Success on the Staying Board doesn't always mean you stay in the r/s... .  I'm no longer in the r/s, but I do feel like a success because I found myself again and I got healthy again. That's the success. Originally,  I wanted desperately for my EX to change so I could be happy.  On Staying, the message was I had to change to learn to make myself happy in or out of the r/s.  Pissed me off, frankly.  It was NOT the message I was expecting to hear. It was not what I wanted to hear!  He's the sick one, HE is the one who needs to change.  I thought the people on the Staying Board were going to show me how to CHANGE HIM!   But in my heart of hearts, I knew what they were pushing at me was true. It was about me, not him.  Yes, it pissed me off, it seemed too big, it was duanting,  but I knew it was true.

In a additon to the Staying Board, I saw my own therapist to work further on my own stuff.  When I didn't have time or money to see my therapist,  I was reading books recommended on Staying and other books that I researched and found helpful.  I also spend a lot of time reading the articles and book reviews on this forum.    

In my opinion,  the whole point of being in a r/s like this one, either temporarily or permanently, long time or short time,   is about coming to grips with some hard truths and making this a growth experience.  It's not fun, it can really suck, and it's hard... .  and it's the best thing I ever did for myself.

That is just my experience, and mine alone.  I do understand and respect and appreciate that everyone has their own unique expereince and their own unique process.  

       

[Newton]

... .  MaybeSo ... .  I, for one, would include YOU in the list you wrote of great people here who "get it".

I find your posts inspiring, insightful... .  and a stinging slap around my intellectual face just when I usually need one 

Just wanted to say a big thankyou 

[MaybeSo]

But every time I tell her I love her, she says... .  "No you don't."  That is it.  She won't say she loves me, just "No you don't."  That has been for over two weeks now.

This can be hard to hear from someone we actually DO love... .  but... .  fact is... .  for her, she probably cannot feel or accept or take in that you love her when she's doing this. So, that's her reality sometimes. So, just let her have her reality.  She's probably very shame-based.  Can't conceive you would love her, and hates herself on some level.  This is likely about her inability to feel your love at least when she's saying that.  It's not about you, it's not personal.  It's sad she can't feel it right now, but you don't have to let it ruin your health.  It's her problem. Dont' make it yours.  This is part of HER disorder.  I'd probably just empathize with her... .  "man, that sucks you can't feel or see that I love you right now, that must feel awful"... .  and then go on with your day.  By the way, sometimes they say that when they sense we are not feeling especially loving toward them, like when we feel frustrated with them. They aren't stupid, they easily, easily pick up on any frustration or disatsifaction in us,  and when we offer stuff like, Oh I love you (because we CAN love someone even while feeling frustrated with them) she may not GET that at all... .  in her mind, there's no way you could both feel frustrated with her AND love her at the same time. Do you understand that?  She can't hold those two thing at the same time in her head. This is more like having dyslexia... it's not meant to piss you off, she just probably can't do that.  That's why DBT was developed, it recognized that part of the disorder is an inability to hold to seemingly conflicting ideas in their mind at one time, for them it's all or nothing.  She would do that with ANYONE.  It has nothing to do with you.  It's NOT PERSONAL.  It's a really tough, tough disorder.  Really tough. 

Any relationship may end at some point. That's part of life.  We don't have control over these things, even with someone who doesn't have BPD.  Chaps my hide, but that's the truth.

[MaybeSo]

Newton, THANK YOU! 

[mitchell16]

novaguy, It sound almost like we were involved with the same person. I met mine, women of my dreams. She is very educated, professional person. We started it was very intense. she was crazy about, phone calls, text messages all the time, notes left for me. Couldnt spend enough time with me. Not a hint of jealous or controlling behavior. But she was quick to point out that I was too jealous or would always say I was controlling. Now I know me and I know that I can be jealous but no more then average person and the things she said that were controlling would be just off the wall. Of course about 2 months into the relationship I told her about a conversation with a female co-worker. The lady is happily married and we have been friends for a long time.MY BPDGF exploded into a rage I never saw in my life. Compete irrational, nothing i said could appease her. Of course now she could ahve all the male friends she wanted, she could go have drinks with these friends and it was ok. After that incident we had split up, she told me to date other women. So I did. Once we got back togther I was verbally beat up for going on a date. Of course she dated a man while we was apart but hers was nothing mine was like I cheated on her. we are currentley not talking and and Im looking to stay out. I wish you luck but in my case it only got worse.

[Newton]

mitchell16... .  I am getting ready for a well deserved night out now so in a bit of a rush... .  but just wanted to say "Oh my! The double standards!"   

I'm seeing a whole new thread just about that and how we cope with it... .  anyone?... .  

[novaguy]

Thanks everyone for the truly insightful and helpful comments - such great and selfless people on these boards.

I'm sorry I dropped off for a while, it became difficult to post and I was focusing on the events I'm about to describe.

I alluded originally to being as complex a situation as possible except for not having kids. Well, I know (in part from these boards) how one must take step to protect oneself as BPDs are master manipulators and you have to worry about legal risk, etc.

When I posted things were horrible - she was in a totally detached mode. People talk about the vacant look in their eyes, the seething anger, them being like a Jekyll & Hyde... .  that was day in and day out for a sustained period. I can identify the reasons why - they don't matter - they didn't have anything to do with me or us, just her having various external stressors and me being the best (subconscious) target.

The last week suddenly things became wonderful again. I also thought it would set up a smooth January where I could also take steps to protect myself as an insurance policy of sorts. Suddenly things were great. I became wonderful in her eyes again. More than wonderful.

And she started another period of total lucidity. Apologized for the horrible period, saying she knows she has problems, etc. Everything I described. I didn't let myself be naive to the point where I thought everything was magically better, but I did think this was significant enough that it would in fact set us up for a better January. Actually this period of lucidity was the most profound yet. I became optimistic perhaps in a broader way too... .  in other words, that maybe she had seen the light.

But then last night - a tiny trigger - one of those standard things all couples deal with. But it unleashed fury. I was so caught off guard - I really didn't think she'd go from zero to a hundred in 2 seconds... .  not after this latest period of lucid thinking and being very happy, reflecting on the past, etc.

She broke up with me, cursed me out, said she didn't want me sleeping in the same bed. Over practically nothing.

I wonder if her latest good period was triggered by her realizing things were really falling apart -almost like mounting a forgiveness campaign subconsciously.

I'm not in a good place tonight.

[SeekerofTruth]

Yup.

Ditto here.  My BPDw informed me, in mid December, her attorney had filed for divorce "by mistake" because he did not hear back from her while we where in the midst of reconciling.   We had a few low contact and rough days, to be followed with her reaching out in being helpful and loving (I love you soo much) and me jumping like bunny as things became all good, hopeful again albeit with many rivers to cross.  Some lucidity, and seeming remorse and acknowledgement appreciating how Big my love is for us brings a tear to her eyes.  We also had some strongly worded authentic text exchanges (I don't do email with her any more because I have too much anxiety with approaching my email in general due to our past email battles). With texting, yeah mine are long, but contained to my phone.  On NYE - texting me pic of her wearing her wedding ring again- thanking me again for how beautiful it is and that it's her "anchor".  So far so good.  On 1/2, she's having a rough night of sorts, string of miscommunications ensue, including possible irritants on my part but I'm self-monitoring (learning better self-control).  We were suppossed to have intimacy, but instead she pulls out a book she is working on in therapy. However I sense the kick in the head coming, it's getting late AND I am no longer taking on her therapist role, executive coaching role (which i've done in the past), she has her real therapist now.  Next thing you know, we begin a circular argument about differing perceptions and the topic at hand.  About 2 switches i what we are talking about, I attempt to shift gears stating the topic is heavy and not consistent with our plans for the evening, tensions are rising perhaps I should prepare to leave (we live apart)?  She begins to sulk and crocodile tears fall.  I rub her back and attempt soothing.  From there, she attempts to rewrite history and minimize any lack of support she witheld regarding the context of conversatio at hand.  Oh oh... .  now wait a minute.  Ah hold on honey, we have waaaaay different perceptions on that one.  Next thing you know she is up on her feet, begining to yell  and pointing her finger, but MOCKING ME... .  which is disrepectful.  Plus last time she mocked me she wound up spitting on my face and later becoming physcially violent--our anniversary eve.  So I'm at the door, tell we are done and exit.  We could havd done better with time outs i suppose.  Shortly thereafter texted her I was going No Contact until I have assurances her anger and hostility are under control.  And I call off our plans for dinner date on Friday, explaining I anticipate going no contact for an extended period of time... .  (had been suggesting it but not following thru).

Now here's the rub.  Friday morning i "find myself" yearning and feeling guilty cus i had intended to make us dinner friday and i wanted to keep good on my word.  No response, silent tx.  I text acknowledging silent tx and state i respect where she's is at.  Dang, I did loose some self-respect in breaking down and texting her that morning.  wth?  I did text her today informing her that our couples counseling apts are confirmed with in accordance with her perferred days.  No response.  Should be an interesting apt this Thursday... .    Big Love

Novaguy, can't say I'm surprised by your update.  I had imagined so.

One thing that might be helpful from what I am in the process of learning the hard way, and what can be gleaned from the collective wisdom of the boards is: 

I wonder if her latest good period was triggered by her realizing things were really falling apart -almost like mounting a forgiveness campaign subconsciously 

It is LESS about wondering about her , trying to figure her out, analyzing her, wondering how she might be processing stuff, which is legitmate and naturally arising concern, but ultimately what is inside of her head, how she feels, and behaves is beyond your control.  Please remember that.  No offense.  It's pathway toward codependency and potentially unhealthy addictive reinforcement and invites you upon the hamster wheel.

I'm not in a good place tonight.

It is MORE about where are you at and what are you doing about taking care of your self  where is your head at, where is your mind at, do you have a spiritual center you are connected to ... .  or might the inner pangs of turmoil and anxiety be manifesting upon your heart strings as your emotions and physiology seem a bit off balanced.  Mentally confused, in disbelief?  If its the latter, perhaps when the dust settles, spending some more time relecting on what's already been posted as to its saliency or lack thereof given what you've just experienced might be useful.  And yeah, BPDs known to exit relationship abrupty in advance ( fear- fight or flight - kind of trigger?) of you abandoning them first.

Take care tonight.  Thanks for the update.  Good luck processesing with what comes up next for you... .  

[maria1]

I'm sorry you are going through this. To me it's the whole reason why we can't ultimately have a relationship. It's an attachment disorder remember and the closeness they desperately yearn triggers a terror of engulfment. The closer you are the bigger the push away, and the more pain for you. Read about engulfment fear if you haven't already.

[novaguy]

<UPDATE>

I don't know if it's best to update on this thread or start a new one.

We are now broken up. I can't decide whether I should 'fight' for her, contact her, or just leave it be. Hence I'm still on L2.

After my last post we had nine good days. Back to everything being great. Too blissful actually - I was in all-out "distract her with elaborate and extravagant signs of love" mode. I just wanted a smooth January.

Then a family member died. As strange as it sounds, me needing to go to a funeral for a weekend triggered this enormous abandonment fear. She literally said "you're abandoning me" hundreds of times. I tried to talk to her about how I need to plan my travel and wanted to consult her, but felt like we couldn't talk because I was afraid of her reactions. Well, this triggered a huge a fight. Huge. I kept calm, said the important things ("I love you. I hope you don't mean what you're saying and that we can talk more calmly tomorrow" and she said everything she could to be mean. She even said she was going to cheat on me while I was at the funeral.

She sent me a text saying we were over when I landed at the airport and was heading over to the beginning of the services, etc. I went into shock and didn't respond. I kept thinking she'd contact me but she didn't. I feared her anger because it was so extreme. She also knew we were waiting on results from another family member who is sick. Well at the end of the weekend the diagnosis came back - it was bad. So I stayed away (we lived together)... .  went to support the family member - my mother - and finally reached out by phone and asked if we could talk.

She said it was over. She was packing up and moving out 1000 miles away. Leaving her whole life behind - her job, friends, me, even her belongings. Said she's be out within 2-3 days. I was in shock. It was the first  time she wasn't just angry, she was sad, but she kept saying I had abandoned her and was utterly unreasonable.

I asked if we could meet in person 2 days later and I came by (to our place - really my place but we had always lived there together.) She had packed her stuff, was leaving in the morning. She was very sad, crying, but also locked into "you abandoned me". I even asked her why we couldn't talk about anything else - even reflect calmly on the relationship if it was the last time we were seeing each other. But she kept saying "you abandoned me" and "I can't get past that in my head".

"But I went to a funeral. You knew where I was. You knew why."

She kept saying that even though she had broken up with me, that I should have come back to fight for her. Well there I was. But it was too late she said.

She left tons of her stuff and said she was charging me for it. Before she left I told her I can't even afford to reimburse her for it and she can't force me to buy something from her. She got furious and ended up saying she didn't care, she was leaving it, and I could 'burn it' for all she cares. It seems she left everything that had any sentimental value or was just too much of a pain to take. Yet she took random strange stuff, like non-perishable foods and spices. Why did she take pictures of us out of the frames and take them, but leave the frames she bought specifically for them. I have all these empty frames now in my house. Where once there were pictures of us.

There's a glass of water and a tissue of hers on her nightstand. I don't want to move it. It's like the only reminder I have of her now. Her nightstand's lamp is still on the floor, somewhat broken, because she had taken it and thrown it against the wall before leaving.

I know, I'm pathetic. If you saw me you wouldn't know I'm struggling. I'm still going to the gym, working hard, being supportive to family, etc. As soon as I stop working or distracting myself, and look around, I'm in tears. We moved here to be together.

I had my happiest times of my life with her. I know, we cling to the beginning phase. She seemed so reasonable/happy/mature/responsible/reliable. Everyone said so.

I always thought her outbursts after things got bad - and even 2 weeks ago - were just adult temper tantrums but that she wouldn't really leave. She'd even say that she couldn't imagine her life without me. She still said that to the very end. But she said she can't be in a relationship where I abandon her. I went to a funeral for a couple of nights.

My mind - both the logical part and the emotional part - just can't reconcile this new reality. These empty picture frames where we both were... .  smiling, happy. How could she give up all of this and leave her whole life.

Part of me is fearful. Perhaps too much so. i don't deal well with such extreme anger even though people say to not fear it - it's just an adult temper tantrum. but part of me wonders if she'll change her mind... .  one day I'll come home and she'll have taken everything. or ruined all of my stuff.

She was actually my best friend too. This loss is tremendous. I'm getting through each day, I can keep doing this forever I guess. Live for other people, work hard, but I feel like every moment I stop to think about things - that I'll just forever try to keep making sense of this, when it can't be made sense of.

The part that probably causes me to feel stuck the most. She had a warped, irrational view of reality (that I 'abandoned' her) and she left because of this view. She thought in her mind (and said) "you don't love me, or else you wouldn't abandon me". So the logical mind can't help but think she'll realize her mistake - if she could just heal, get support - she'll realize she left something wonderful because of her own childhood trauma/fears manifesting in adult form.

Ironically I was posting on here before, struggling with the relationship (her), realizing it might not be the best thing because it was so tumultuous. Yet now that it's over - seemingly - I am more stuck. 

[cookiecrumbled]

Dear Novaguy -

I know exactly what you are talking about - my high-functioning BPD did the same thing - a moment when the walls came down and he admitted that he is really off mentally - I kept the email too and read it all the time for comfort as well - but think about how many MORE times they were mean, or in denial, or blaming us or others for their problems.  Again, actions not words.  I could never get that moment of lucidity back - the moment of truth that if he just embraced it and moved through it - there would be a lifetime of commitment and love and stability there waiting for him.  But no... .  that is what is the most painful cross to bear for me - that I could not coax him out of the hiding place and he had rather destroy us instead. 

I don't believe I will ever get over it.

Cookie (not in NoVa but not far)

[hithere]

Novaguy, I know this probably won't help you feel any better right now but her leaving is probably the best thing that could happen for you, I just hope she doesn't come back and recycle you.

I think you should start therapy ASAP if you are not doing it already, you seem like a great person but you need to understand why you were stuck with someone that treated you so badly (so it won't happen again).

Good luck and keep us up-to-date.

[cookiecrumbled]

Maria1 wrote:

And that sentence of his says it all I think- he has to forgive himself to move on, to survive. If he faces up to being a heartless btch he will sink into depression because he has to take accountability for some pretty awful stuff he has done in his life.

Maria - you just hit the nail on the head.  In one fell swoop, he admitted that he had a problem and admitted he wasn't going to do anything about it. 

[rosannadanna]

Hey Novaguy

Phoebe123 said:

Do you have a strong sense of who you are and what you're willing to put up with, tolerate?  Or have your boundaries been pushed back to accomodate your girlfriend's shape-shifting?  If so, you can learn how to un-do that

So now that she is gone, try to start answering these questions of yourself.  As many said earlier in the post, there is something that attracts you to this type of woman.  The answer is usually found in our FOO experience.  It either mimics what we saw or what we actually experienced first hand.  These relationships are our way to recreate what is comfortable and because we know it was unstable or unhealthy, we want to correct it in these relationships.  We don't do it with alot of awareness, we are kind of compelled to do it.

If you don't figure that out you will go back to her and be miserable or keep picking this type of woman and be miserable.

I also think it would help you to distract yourself with fun, positive people and activities to help you move through emotionally detaching from your idealized relationship fantasy.  Detaching from this will help you detact from this woman.  Really exploring codendency will be helpful, as well as listening to or reading some of the Buddhist teachings of acceptance (Tara Brach is a good place to start IMO).

Seeker said:

It's hard to say, and even harder to see... .  but generally with an untreated unrecognized high functioning-acting out BPD- without realizing it... .  they may be looking to be as destructive as they can be in your life, wrestling away as much of or all control... .  feeding off anxiety (fear, terror, worry, anxiousness) and chaos.  Its a crazy love and in that regard self-defeating.

This would be your daily reality if you go back.  You can't make her go to therapy and even if she did, she seeme to be the abusive, acting out type that will continue to act out these behaviors on her intimate partner.  Let's say she did go to therapy, even DBT or other BPD specific therapy and you employed all the tools.  She will still be triggered by you and by stress, it is inevitable.  The best you can hope for is a reduction in her behavior.  Please keep that in mind if she returns and wants to work things out.

I personally can't handle a full blown relationship with my ex.  We have some together time with a lot of apart time b/c I need that space to not get enmeshed and lose the identity I have worked so hard in the last year to find.

I really wish you the best in your journey.