Screaming.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

A few days ago, D16 was washing dishes and dropped a glass one, and it shattered.  She screamed and kept screaming.  There was broken glass on the tile floor and she was wearing socks but no shoes.  I told her "Stop screaming - it's OK - it will be OK but you have to stop screaming."  She then insisted that it was someone else's fault for putting that dish away wrong so it fell out of the cabinet - pretty likely - that cabinet isn't very orderly.  But she was focused on blame, not on solutions.

Finally she calmed down.  I brought her her shoes, and told her to pick up the big pieces, and then sweep up the rest, and she did.

Later, we talked about it.  My focus was on how she reacts to problems - calmly or hysterically.  I said that nothing she could have done would have un-broken the dish, but reacting hysterically can sometimes make things worse.  I told her - with S14 listening - that it's especially important since she has her drivers license now, and she will sooner or later need to deal with something, and not react in ways that will make it worse.  She heard me but again talked about the dish and the glass - "There was glass on the floor and I was afraid it got in my eyes!" - more going back to the problem not the solution or her choices.  She cried a little while we were talking - in the movie theater before the movie started!  But she stuck with me and I think she got it.

I see this as imprinting from when she was little.  All my kids (S14, D16, SD23 and SS34) do it to some extent - they all get scared of bugs, for example.  D16 is very emotional and uninhibited, which I think is healthy, but she needs to temper this aspect of it.  I think when they were little, they saw their mom, who has BPD, get very upset, yell and scream, throw things, blame, and make accusations, sometimes over almost nothing.  I think that is how they learned to react.  I tend to under-react, which is good because I stay calm, but sometimes I over-do the under-reacting, and don't deal with things - just walk away and act like it didn't happen.  Which enabled their mom's behavior... .  

[Matt]

A few days ago, D16 was washing dishes and dropped a glass one, and it shattered.  She screamed and kept screaming.  There was broken glass on the tile floor and she was wearing socks but no shoes.  I told her "Stop screaming - it's OK - it will be OK but you have to stop screaming."  She then insisted that it was someone else's fault for putting that dish away wrong so it fell out of the cabinet - pretty likely - that cabinet isn't very orderly.  But she was focused on blame, not on solutions.

Finally she calmed down.  I brought her her shoes, and told her to pick up the big pieces, and then sweep up the rest, and she did.

Later, we talked about it.  My focus was on how she reacts to problems - calmly or hysterically.  I said that nothing she could have done would have un-broken the dish, but reacting hysterically can sometimes make things worse.  I told her - with S14 listening - that it's especially important since she has her drivers license now, and she will sooner or later need to deal with something, and not react in ways that will make it worse.  She heard me but again talked about the dish and the glass - "There was glass on the floor and I was afraid it got in my eyes!" - more going back to the problem not the solution or her choices.  She cried a little while we were talking - in the movie theater before the movie started!  But she stuck with me and I think she got it.

I see this as imprinting from when she was little.  All my kids (S14, D16, SD23 and SS34) do it to some extent - they all get scared of bugs, for example.  D16 is very emotional and uninhibited, which I think is healthy, but she needs to temper this aspect of it.  I think when they were little, they saw their mom, who has BPD, get very upset, yell and scream, throw things, blame, and make accusations, sometimes over almost nothing.  I think that is how they learned to react.  I tend to under-react, which is good because I stay calm, but sometimes I over-do the under-reacting, and don't deal with things - just walk away and act like it didn't happen.  Which enabled their mom's behavior... .  

[DreamGirl]

BPD is a lot about the inability to regulate emotions.

Screaming, in it's primal state, is not regulating an emotion - it's a reaction to an emotion. (I think of fear,anger, or frustration)

Had your daughter had a hard day? Was she tired? What was her emotion in that moment?

Why did she make such a fuss?

[Matt]

I'm not sure what else was going on with her right then.  No school and no work (her job as an elf at Santa's Village ended the day before).  She doesn't always tell me what's going on with her - sometimes I see it on Facebook first.

She acted afraid of the glass, but both kids instinctively go to blame - when something goes wrong, their first reaction is to find someone to blame.  She said - correctly I think - that the dishes were stacked awkwardly, so when she opened the cabinet to put some away, this one fell out - "Why would somebody stack them like that?"  A valid point maybe, but irrelevant;  what was needed was for her to get her shoes on and then carefully pick up and sweep up the glass.

I reminded both kids of an episode of "Modern Family" we saw recently, where someone sees a spider and screams, and that causes a bizarre chain of events that leads to an injury unrelated to the spider.  They laughed and I think they got the point - the injury wasn't caused by the spider, it was caused by hysterical reactions from the characters.

My guess is, she was reacting instinctively, based on how she was trained - when something goes wrong, you scream and blame.  She was definitely upset - there was a strong emotion there - but I'm not sure if it was really fear of the glass, or fear that I would be mad (which would be unreasonable since I don't get mad at the kids for stuff like this), or embarrassment that she made a mistake.

Later she told me she has recently broken a few dishes at her mom's house, so it may have been frustration with herself, or maybe her mom made her feel bad when that happened.

[livednlearned]

both kids instinctively go to blame - when something goes wrong, their first reaction is to find someone to blame.  S

My guess is, she was reacting instinctively, based on how she was trained - when something goes wrong, you scream and blame.  She was definitely upset - there was a strong emotion there - but I'm not sure if it was really fear of the glass, or fear that I would be mad (which would be unreasonable since I don't get mad at the kids for stuff like this), or embarrassment that she made a mistake.

Later she told me she has recently broken a few dishes at her mom's house, so it may have been frustration with herself, or maybe her mom made her feel bad when that happened.

My son does this too. It's gotten better, but it took years to work through it. Sometimes it pops through, usually when he's scared.

You handled it in a really gentle way, and it's nice that you were able to get the kids to laugh. It's great that you could break down what happened and explain that there was the initial feeling and then the reaction, and you had an analogy you could share so that everyone understood. I think it's also good that you helped her (brought her shoes), but still had her clean up the glass.

S11 struggles with this, although there are variations to what you're describing. When he gets hurt, his immediate go-to response is to accuse me of not caring, or not understanding, or laughing at him  . In other words, he is the victim, and is definitely channeling his dad.

I would try to comfort him, and he would get mad at me. I would say nothing, and he would get mad at me. I would ask him if he needed help, more mad. I had to start responding with, "Let me know how you would like me to respond." When I said that, he would stay mad, but wouldn't verbally blame me. When he cooled his jets, we would talk about it, and I would tell him how I felt when he got hurt (concerned), and how his reaction to his hurt made me feel (bad). We're still muddling through it, sometimes it's better than others. Sometimes we talk about it with his T for a bit, but usually my role is to explain the scenario, and then he and T talk in private.

I'm wondering if there is an age or developmental milestone when kids can start to recognize their own thoughts and learn more sophisticated ways of regulating their emotions and behavior?

[Matt]

I'm wondering if there is an age or developmental milestone when kids can start to recognize their own thoughts and learn more sophisticated ways of regulating their emotions and behavior?

Yeah, this is exactly what I've been wondering too, for the last five years or so - how long do I stay patient, and at what point is it a "problem in a young adult", vs. "normal behavior in a child".  At 16, I'm really, really hoping for that turning point.

Here's my only real point of reference (and it's not too relevant in the details to either me or you):

SS34 started drinking at 12, drugs in high school, never sober til 6 months in rehab at 27 or so.  Then he came to live with the kids and me, and did OK.  But he still had a lot of behaviors I saw as probably normal for 12 (when his emotional development was sidetracked) not 27.

One time we we playing a game.  S(then)8 got mad and threw a game piece at SS(then)27.  SS picked it up and threw it back at him - just a few feet - and S8 wailed - probably not hurt bad but upset that a full-grown man threw something hard at him.

I first dealt with S8 - "Go to your room til you're ready to play right."

Then I dealt with SS27 - "That behavior is bad for a child but absolutely unacceptable for an adult.  You're done behaving that way in this house or around me or the kids.  If it happens again - anything remotely like that - just pack your bags and find a place to live because you're done here."  He knew I was his biggest supporter and I had forgiven  him for much worse things, but since he had been to rehab, I figured I had to put an end to it.

The good news is, that was the last outburst like that from SS - ever.  I talked with him and told him mom had been diagnosed with BPD etc. and that if he had problems like that he would probably go back to those childish outbursts and he wouldn't be able to control it for long.  But if just by force of will he could end that behavior, he surely didn't have BPD, but probably just "fleas".  It worked - he took it seriously and it's been many years since I've seen that kind of behavior from him.

That's why I believe - in addition to stuff I've read - that just talking about the issue is likely to be enough for the younger kids.  I don't think there's any chance they have BPD or anything similar.

But... .  it sure does bug me when they slip back into old behaviors.  And this was a prime example for D16.

[whirlpoollife]

Thanks for posting this and how you handlled it.

You're a good dad, matt.

[Matt]

Thanks for posting this and how you handlled it.

You're a good dad, matt.

Thank you!

[Matt]

Traveling on business, I got a call from the kids' mom, in the middle of the day, which is rare.  They stayed with her Monday night and last night;  I'll pick them up after school tomorrow.

Ex told me:

* The D16 and S14 got in a heated argument yesterday and were both very upset.

* S14 was asking D16's help - someone had asked her to baby-sit and she couldn't do it, but she didn't suggest him, and he wanted the gig.  But it sounds like S14 wasn't asking nicely for help, he was complaining because D16 hadn't handled it the way he wanted.

* As the argument got worse, D16 dropped a couple of f-bombs, flipped S14 off, and hit him.

* Ex told D16 that she can't go to the dance next weekend.  (D16 doesn't have a boyfriend but was looking forward to the dance, going with her friends.)

* Ex was calling me to tell me all this and make sure I would follow through on that - the kids will be with me that day.

I asked about S14's behavior and she gave me way too much detail about the argument, which reminded me that Ex thinks in terms of the merits of each person's arguments, not the behaviors that cross the line.  According to her, S14 didn't use bad language or hit D16 back, so he got no punishment.

I'll see S14 before D16 tomorrow.  My thinking is to ask him what happened and just listen, then do the same with D16 when I see her.

If the story more-or-less confirms what their mom told me - and I think it probably will - she's nutty as a fruitcake but it's not like her to make things up about the kids like that - then I'll support the no-dance plan.  My thinking is, I can't say if the punishment fits the crime exactly - there's no way to say if it's exactly right - but it seems reasonable.  The key is that D16 must get her behavior under control - raising her voice or using some bad language is one thing, but physical violence just can't be in her vocabulary.

As this was happening last evening, D16 posted on her Facebook:  "You gotta love it when you get to the point where you can't even stand your family anymore because everything you do and say is somehow wrong."  She got expressions of love and support from her aunts and cousins on both sides (my family and her mom's) which I suppose is fine - they all think she walks on water, as do I.

I may call her this evening just to let her know I'm aware and thinking of her, and tell her we'll get into it tomorrow.  I don't want to undermine her mom right now, while the kids are still with her (or probably tomorrow either).

I may also remind D16 that she has been influenced by two adults who have problems and have acted out a lot - her mom and her big brother - and that she needs to get control over her behavior 100% of the time if she wants to have a car, go to college, etc.  (She's lobbying hard for a car, and except for this behavior, that would not be too bad of an idea.)

[Matt]

I called both kids this evening, just to check in and let them know I was thinking of them.

S14 didn't have much to say.  I told him, "We'll talk tomorrow."

D16 sounded sad but didn't say much.  I told her the same thing, but she called back a few minutes later, crying, and said, "Can we talk about it now?".

I figured she wanted me to say she could go to the dance, but that didn't come up.  She wanted to tell me what S14 had said that made her so mad.  (This is how her mom talked about it too - who was arguing what.)  I listened, but then brought it back to her behavior.  She admitted what she had done.  She said she hated being there (at her mom's house) with S14 - said he is often a jerk and sometimes hits her.  She said they should live separately.

We talked about half an hour before my flight was called.  I think it helped, but we'll need to talk more.

My take on it is that she was raised in a home where aggression - mostly verbal but sometimes physical - was normal, and she needs to get past that.  I doubt if she has a psychological problem, but counseling is an option.

I was encouraged that she didn't lash out at me much.  She did say, "S14 hits me and you guys (her mom and me) don't do anything about it!  But then I asked, "What was the last time he hit you when I was around?" and she couldn't remember - not recent.  After that, she didn't attack me anymore, and I think she was listening and hearing me.

One way of seeing this is that their mom doesn't manage these issues well, and just waits til it gets out of control and then imposes punishments - sometimes reasonable and sometimes extreme (but she doesn't follow through with the extreme ones).  The psychologist who did our Custody Evaluation described this in detail and said S14's behavior was clearly better when he was with me than with his mom, and he recommended that if things don't go well in time S14 should spend more time with me.  Which I consider an option.

First I'll talk with each kid tomorrow.  I'll probably stick with Ex's proposed no-dance decision, and I probably won't impose any consequences on S14, since it doesn't sound like he crossed any lines (like hitting or using bad language).

Beyond that, maybe I'll let the dust settle, and think about proposing that S14 spend more time with me.  I think S14 would be OK with that, D16 would like it, and their mom might be OK with it too.

[livednlearned]

When I started working with S11's T, she said that kids feel safer when grown-ups have structure and ground rules -- if we are there to protect them from letting things getting out of hand, they feel safer, even if they don't like the rules or the consequences.

I understand that you kinda inherited the consequence for D16, and might have done things different. You want to be consistent with what your ex decided because the kids were with her at the time.

But I'm curious about your son, and how this squares with what he did.

I had a lot of conflict with my brother growing up. He was much bigger, and 18 months older, and physical abuse was his go-to method for controlling any situation. It worked well for him. He was punished for it, but that punishment usually trickled down to me one way or another. I don't think punishment works for physical abuse. I think it just makes the abuser even more angry. Not saying your D16 is an abuser, but I'm wondering if her trigger works the same way as someone who has a pattern of losing control: the trigger is too powerful for the kind of issues that traditional discipline targets.

I'm glad you're thinking of counseling for D16, because it sounds like she has triggers (and maybe S14 knows how to push her buttons particularly well, stuff you can't see so well as a parent). But speaking as the younger sibling of an explosive sibling rivalry, if D16 gets counseling, it seems like S14 should get it too. They need to understand the dynamic of their r/s, and if D16 goes to counseling and not her brother, she may feel invalidated, which feeds her anger at her brother. Cycle goes around.

[Matt]

Yeah, these are all the questions, and i'm not sure of the answers yet.

I definitely think S14 knows how to push his sister's buttons, and I'm going to watch that carefully.

At the same time, I don't want them to buy into their mom's logic, that it's OK to hit someone if they say something you don't like.

Words can hurt, but it's pretty hard to say exactly what words cross the line, especially since I wasn't there.

I talked with S14 today - he had very little to say, but seemed to be claiming that D16 hit him more than once.  I told him that I'm going to watch carefully to see how they both handle themselves, and he needs to make sure that when there's conflict, he doesn't let it build - he either walks away, or finds a way to resolve it, with D16 directly, or with my help.

I'm seriously thinking of proposing that S14 spend more time with me, while D16 continues to spend some nights with her mom.  Maybe a few nights apart will help them both.

And I remember that when we had our Custody Evaluation a few years ago, the psychologist recommended that if S14's behavior is an issue, he should probably spend more time with me.  I just don't see the behavior that D16 claims - she says he hits her and says mean things to her - I don't think that happens here.  I think it's likely that he just out-smarts his mom - she's very intelligent but doesn't sort out what's happening very clearly and of course is not good with boundaries, so I suspect he finds ways to provoke D16 without their mom understanding what's going on... .  

[livednlearned]

Maybe you have already done this, but what do you think S14 and D16 would propose if you asked them how best to resolve things when they have a conflict?

See if they have ideas about how each of them could de-escalate. Let them know it's normal to have triggers, like you've told them, and then see if they can develop self-awareness enough to come up with a solution. And maybe ask them what kind of consequence there should be when it happens?

I dunno. I admire you for being so present with them. My parents just shut it out and hoped it would go away. Even just having it acknowledged would have given me something solid to hang onto.

[Matt]

Maybe you have already done this, but what do you think S14 and D16 would propose if you asked them how best to resolve things when they have a conflict?

See if they have ideas about how each of them could de-escalate. Let them know it's normal to have triggers, like you've told them, and then see if they can develop self-awareness enough to come up with a solution. And maybe ask them what kind of consequence there should be when it happens?

I dunno. I admire you for being so present with them. My parents just shut it out and hoped it would go away. Even just having it acknowledged would have given me something solid to hang onto.

No, I haven't tried that.  They're both pretty aware and creative, so they might come up with something.  Thanks!

Matt