Delicate Subject

[cfh]

As we all struggle with the emotions that come from raising a child with BPD, as we struggle to learn how to communicate with them and as we struggle when things fall apart many suggest giving it up to god or some other spirit.

It's often suggested that god has a plan, and god never gives us more than we can handle, and god will watch over us.

What is the suggestion or advice to one who does not have a belief or faith in a god?  What do you say to a person who thinks more in scientific terms. My belief system is private but it does not include any belief in god or any kind of higher power.

Though the thought of giving it up to a god is lovely it just is not one of my belief systems.  So is there something else than can be said during those desperate times?

I hope this has not been offensive to anyone.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[OTH]

What are we doing when we "give it up to God"? We are basically accepting the limits of our capabilities and what can be done. This gives us space to refocus our energy in ways that can make a positive difference in our life. Another popular term would be "radical acceptance" which doesn't require the belief in a deity.  Hope this helps.

[Thursday]

I went to my first Alanon meeting and my head ached with the message that having a higher power is necessary, not that anyone was beating me over the head with the message but it is a focal point of the 12 steps.

I am not religious. I have a deeply spiritual side but it's certainly not traditional. I have a hard time identifying with the idea of a higher power although I certainly believe there is much I don't understand about the universe and what lies beyond our lives.

At that meeting and never since, by the way, this adorable elderly gent stood and spoke to the meeting about his atheism. Alanon worked well for him despite his lack of belief in a higher power. I asked him about this after the meeting and he laughed and said there are all kinds of higher powers including his belief that he needed to believe that the 12 steps could help him cope with his alcoholic wife, who incedently had died many years prior but there he was at that meeting. He said something like,

"Make of this what you will but Alanon led me to a place of acceptance and peace and I've stayed there by it's grace."

I admit I am powerless over much in life and so much of what I've learned in my life through religious sources doesn't fit very well with how I see things. I'm pretty sure that we are here for a reason and that there is more than what we experience as living human beings. I guess I would be pretty pissed off if I thought there was a higher power handing out some of what I've been dealt in life... .  enough is enough but let me also say I am proud of all I have endured and that I've come through it intact and in general, smiling.

Other than that... .  I just can't be sure and I'm not going to lie just to fit in with others.

still, I am compelled towards bettering myself, in doing unto others, to smelling the roses, towards love. I try not to let the "technicalities" of a belief system get to me... .  I admit I wish I could believe in this higher power and be certain of its existant, that must be very comforting. I'm ok to hover on the outskirts of this or to float above it or whatever.

I figure if there is a God that God is ok with how I'm living my life and knows this brain is doing it's best.


I write this to let you know your are not alone with these issues. Although I put some of what I think and feel out here I respect whatever it is you think and feel. And I'm pretty sure even the most religious here will not tramp on our right to not be in the same place.

You ask what you can do in desparate times?

My only advice is self-reliance and confidence in your ability to discern right from wrong, patience to wait for the situation to change (I have observed, the situation always changes) and faith in the power of love. I also believe that hope is necessary and that positive thoughts have some healing power but that might just be my optimism speaking.

I also remind myself that it is not important that I understand everything, only that I don't turn my back on knowledge and understanding when it presents itself... .  keeping an open mind and not turning my back on what I've identified as important.

or, you can always PM me... .  

Thursday

[Vivgood]

cfh, there was an excellent essay on this very subject in the New York Times this week. If you are interested and can't find it, let me know and I will put a copy in the Articles section.

I too am an atheist,a scientist, and have found AlAnon very helpful despite the religious overtones.


vivgood

[Esperança_Hope]

Dearest CFH,

Faith is a grace we receive and them we feed it. It´s rational. It´s, for me, an act of will. I decided to believe because it makes sense. I believe faith and science are not enemies. Faith supports reason and perfection; and reason, illuminated by faith, finds strength to raise itself to the knowledge of God.

So, please, you  are not being offensive. How could a lovely person as you are be offensive? It´s is a polemic theme. 

I would make my words these. A gorgeous insight!

What are we doing when we "give it up to God"? We are basically accepting the limits of our capabilities and what can be done. This gives us space to refocus our energy in ways that can make a positive difference in our life. Another popular term would be "radical acceptance" which doesn't require the belief in a deity.  Hope this helps.

 

[Eclaire5]

Thursday, that was beautifully explained. I am not sure I can add much to that, except the thought that most human beings can accomplish goals that we set for ourselves. I think one of the main goals for most of us is to come to that point of acceptance. CFH, you don’t have to believe in a higher power to believe in yourself. Can you change your loved one with BPD? No you can’t, but you can change the way you think and feel about the situation and that’s where your hope and sense of comfort can arise from. For all of us is a series of baby steps, we take two steps forward and then one back, but we keep on going. Some days are good and some days are bad, and we need to believe that we can get through the bad ones still alive!

[cfh]

Thank you all for your lovely and thoughtful comments.  My mother was a devout Catholic (she was also bi polar) and her faith got her through so many rough times in her life and dealing with her illness.  She truly believed in god and she truly believed that he/she was listening.

I guess sometimes I am envious of the comfort it gave her.  I don't have it, can't get it and well you can't just pretend to believe when you don't.

What I do believe in is leading an honest and authentic life, treating others as I would like to be treated and hopefully leaving this world having made it a little better (and I would like to have a little more fun before I go!).

vivgood... .  haven't hear from you in a while!  I will look up that article right now.

Thanks.

[cfh]

vivgood,

That was an excellent article!  If anyone else is interested in reading it it's in the New York Times called "The Blessings of Atheism" January 5.

Touched on so many good points.

[griz]

I always find the subject or G-d a confusing one.  I was raised in a traditional Catholic family, even went to Catholic school from first to fifth grade.  My fathers father was married to a Jewish woman (which was very odd back then considering my dad is now 86), so I was exposed to all different types of religious beliefs. By the time I was an early teen my parents had stopped going to church and religion for our family was only really observed on the holidays.

Fast forward to my late twenties when I met my dh, who is Jewish.  We were married and a short time later I was pregnant with my first daughter.  I remember when discussing what religion we would raise her I saidnit didn't matter to me as long as our children had religion.  For my husband it was verynmportant that our children were raised Jewish and I was fine with it.  Our family was very observant. We attended temple every Friday evening and both of my children attended temple nursery school and Hebrew school.  I, who had always had a very spiritual side felt very at home in the temple and became very involved and even taught Hebrew school for six years.  My spiritual side and connection with G-d was very strong and when life hurled cancer at me I prayed, and when I suffered four miscarriages I prayed, and when I lost a baby in my fifth month I prayed.  I didn't lose faith.  Then my husband had an affair and I prayed, then my husband lost his business and I prayed and then BPD came along and I never prayed harder and then one day I just stopped praying and as some of you know since I mentioned it in previous post I stopped praying the day my DD asked me why G-D dosent love her.  But the thing I find so weird for me is that even though I stopped praying for help, I find I still pray for others.  I will often ask G-d to give someone strength or to send them the help they need but I never pray for me anymore.  It is kind of like having a really good friend that you have a fight with and you stop speaking but you still love them and you miss them.

I'm not really sure why I wrote this whole stupid boring story and now I'm crying hysterically, I guess I just needed to let it out.  So if anyone out there is still connected with G-d you can tell him that I miss him.

Griz

[Speedracer]

Doesn't the phrase giving it up to God seem as though we are not fully radically accepting our BPD loved one? I feel like I hand over my own burdens when I can't go on carrying them; but not as though I give it up as though I've lost hope. I have almost never felt alone, and the few times I have; I have always been shown otherwise.

[cfh]

Griz,

I totally get that!  I don't pray anymore (and I went to Catholic school for 16 years... .  even college!).  The reason I don't pray is that I don't think there is anyone to pray to. 

But anytime a friend asks me to pray I always do.  Because I think "what if" and though I may not believe I could be wrong and there could be this being up there watching over us. 

Who am I to know all the answers so I always give it a shot and pray just in case.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[sam-99]

I am a single parent and could never have did it alone, especially when the problems started to arise.  I don't 'give anything up' but I look to our Maker for strength and wisdom.  It is good to feel like I have reliable help and am not alone.  So many encouraging scriptures that give strength.  I like 1 Corinthians 4:7 among many others.  But, he created us with a brain and expects us to use it.  So these posts are right.  I am new to the BPD world, but am seeing that the key must be in gaining knowledge and applying it. (much like studying the Bible ironically)  I think our loved ones are so worth the effort it will take.  But the understanding protects us from being destroyed by it all it would seem.  It would think that without a higher power in a persons life then a good support system would be crutial.  It is always good to be able to talk, if not in prayer, then to someone who will listen.  Neat thing about God is he is always available.   

[qcarolr]

cfh - I so appreciate your courage in starting this thread with such respect to all, and to all the responses. I have been in the place of many of you all over time. My brief time in this life and lack of understanding of how it all works can create much doubt. Yet, when I am stronger in my faith in a creator God that bases everything on the principle of LOVE, well I mange to find some peace in my day to day life. I manage to hold on for one more day, and move to let go of all those worries about tomorrow. I have so little control over any of it. (Radical Acceptance)

I too find that prayer is something I can do for so many others and not so much for myself. I have rarely asked "Why me". What is, is what is. I cope the best I can, always searching for more knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Al Anon was very helpful for me, though I resisted invitations to go for many years in my stuggles with DD.

I found this passage helpful in my understanding recently, paraphrased in the "Message" translation of the Bible:

Romans 2:14-15 (MSG)

  When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong.

And God's law is simple - Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Many of you stated this in many different ways, both spiritually and rationally based on reasoning. At least the second part.

I have found peace from many sources in my life, and people of many traditions and beliefs. I believe we are all created from the same "stuff" and strive to find purpose for our human lives. Everyone has struggles and they are often invisible to us. Just wish mine did not include so much distressing mental illness.

Peace to all, qcr  

[Googie]

The one thing that was able to get me to move on from any hard situation in my life was when I truly understood that acceptance is the solution to all my problems.  When I was able to truly accept something I was struggling so hard to change, only then was I able to not give it the power to interfere with my life, ultimately interfering in the lives of all that share the same grief and disappointment. 

It took me a very long time to "get" it, but then it happened, I don't know how or why, probably just complete mental exhaustion and guilt over not being able to be present in the lives of my other children.  Regardless of why it happened, it happened.

Radical acceptance is key to surviving a life full of drama caused by our BPD's or anything for that matter.  No matter what the circumstances are, if I accept them for what they are, it takes the power away from disabling me as a person.

Googie

[lovesjazz]

The problems with our son has brought me deeper faith and inner peace.  The peace comes with the acceptance, as in the serenity prayer. I feel this is why he was brought into our lives... .  to bring US closer to God.  I know this is not the case for everyone, but for me, it was the only answer.  I would feel lost without it.

[mikmik]

cfh, and all

I wonder, if faith, belief in a higher power, prayer, God, the whole enchilada, had changed.  Evolved if you will. 

I go back to an idea our dear Reality brought up, a few months ago.  These people with BPD are odd.  But they are brilliant.  They are creative.  Back, and I think waaayyyy back in the day, Reality suggests that they may have been honored as Shamans.  Revered, tended to, honored for their creativity.  And because they were tended to, all was OK. 

But fast forward to the techno age, the internet, stigmas, shame, keeping up with the Jones's, mine is better than yours, on and on and on.  Maybe, just maybe all of that contrbiutes to how we view our children.  BPD is awful, when we witness the pain.  But, as the stigma and shame and fear that now surrounds BPD has evolved, so has our ability in many many cases to believe that God could do this to our children.  What is HIS plan in BPD?  What is His plan for the future of these kids?  And if this is a cruel trick by a loving God, they how easy it is to turn away (if you were a believer in the first place).  Because society has, over the years and years and years has changed, and therefore how we view mental health (they kids with BPD are ILL, not shamans), I think faith and belief has changed too.  We are not able to see a gift in our children, we only can see the curse.

Maybe, as Reality says, pwBPD should be viewed and treated differently, as they once were.  With dignity, honor.  Maybe we are wrong in the way we treat them, and allow them and us to be viewed by society.  Maybe this has nothing to do with God, and has everything to do with us (and I mean Globally, not just you or me).  This is a huge leap, to be sure.

I actually have no idea where I am going with this... .    I may have offcially lost my mind 

mik

[Speedracer]

I understand where you are going & these things have crossed my mind too. A counselor once told me firmly when my kids were little, that God makes no mistakes. They are created perfectly the exact way He intends them to be, and entrusts them to us. Another thing she said was that when God subtracts, he multiplies. So when I changed my visions for the future which went against society's norm for success, I tried to always keep these two statements in mind.

That being said, The hand of God does not stop evil on earth, and our kids by nature of their "disability" in this society, are definitely more prone to attracting such forces. Bad things happen, & boy does it make us very angry, wanting to think this was all some cruel trick. But thinking in such a way can cause us to lose hope.

[almostvegan]

Oh griz your " whole stupid story" isn't stupid at all! I love how you said it's like having a friend that you're mad at but still love. That's the SMARTEST thing I've heard in a long time! It explains how I still hold on to certain traditions but am basically non practicing in reality. I still identify with my religious identity and feel its important to hold onto it but I'm so angry at how things are and how my life is that I guess I'm just ANGRY at god and have zero desire to be involved with him. I feel like " what have you done for me lately?"

Anyway your words were lovely and I wanted to thank you for putting into words what I've felt for so so long but never could express.

Sending wishes of love and peace

Almost vegan

[sunshineplease]

mikmik, I really enjoyed your thoughts on the topic. If you lost your mind, it took mine with it. I often think that if my ud17 didn't have to go to school (her biggest stressor and hardest hurdle) she'd be wildly successful, since she's super bright and has enjoyed any job she's had (paid or volunteer).

The world is narrowing just when our kids need it to expand!

[opheliasmom]

Cfh,

Thank you for this topic.  I have been an Al Anon member for four years and have the same struggles with "God has a plan... .  " that you seem to.  A very logical member made two suggestions: that GOD can simply be Good Orderly Direction and my higher power can be anything or anyone.  They suggested the Al Anon group itself could be a higher power and that has worked for me.  When I am alone with my thoughts and can't find solace I wonder what a particular member might say.  Sometimes just imagining the comforting words of another person who knows what I am going through will get me through rough times. Even better if they can talk to me on the phone.  My sanity hinges on the support I get from Al Anon and this message board.   For me God is just a word that represents the people who love and understand me. 

[Reality]

My dear Mikmik,

You made me laugh out loud because you were referring to my ideas and then at the end you asked if you were going out of your mind.  My thinking is always way out of the box... .  I know. 

I do see the BPD mess as being churned energetically by our culture, our society and our values... .  

As for God, I can never figure out what any of this mess has to do with God, or any other mess, for that matter.  Humans are very powerful.  It is not as if we are puppets.  Neither are our darlings.  Their actions have consequences, big time... .  

I could never figure out a higher power.  It makes me think of an electrical zapper or something.  I can not imagine anything worse than a vacuous somehow non-existent being.  Too weird.

Strong Opinions from Reality

I love us because we are all so honest and different.  Real people.  Friends... .  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Googie]

I laughed as well when I read you were going out of your mind.  I have been feeling that way for months.  I think you have to have a little quirkiness when you are dealing with such stressful stuff all the time.  Half a mind and a warped sense of humor. 


Gaelen

[mikmik]

Ha!  Dear Everyone,

Thank you cfh for this needed post.  Thank you for opening up the discussion. And Opheliasmom's statement that God is the people who love and support her is most lovely.  And thanks to everyone who understands that I am loosing my mind, but in a good way.

What a safe and wonderful place to share our thoughts on such a sensitive subject.

mik

[LearningToAccept]

I take the concept of god as a challenge not an answer. I  identify with the Pantheistic take on all things spiritual. I am in awe of this wonderful universe and revel in its mystery without a need to use labels.

I sense I am incapable of believing in the god of organized religion. I pray to a mysterious and benevolent universe and take some comfort in  the thought that this earth is not aimlessly rushing through space, although I sense it is.

I enjoy reading all Zen  Buddhism and certain Advaita (non-duality) books. I am naturally attracted to anything  that encourages the looking within instead or without. I also enjoy the Native American beliefs concerning the human connectedness with nature.

My  favorite atheist is  neuroscientist Sam Harris. His take on free will is incredibly convincing. His YouTube video about free will is a masterpiece. My favorite 'gurus' are American Astronomer and Astrophysicist Carl Sagan, and German mystic Eckhart Tolle. 

I have read the New testament more than once and find Jesus' teachings very inspiring. The gospel of Thomas, not included in the bible, offers a refreshing take on the life of Jesus and his teachings. 

At times, after a prolonged nurturing  of my spiritual side, I reach a stage of total and absolute contentment with what is. Resistance to life's perceived obstacles is effortlessly dropped so is the attachment to outcomes. My experience is that when I stop resisting the flow of life, my judgments and expectations fall off. It is the closest thing to nirvana I have experienced. 

I am not always there, heck i am seldom there, and when my spiritual self isn't nurtured all hell brakes lose. The same happens to our physical body when it's not nurtured properly with healthy foods, exercise and restful sleep. It brakes down and we get sick.

Interesting thread. I hope it keeps growing 


Learning 

[cfh]

Well everyone this has certainly turned into an interesting thread!  We are all going through the moment, the day, the week and handling our experience in different ways.  But how wonderful to learn of those differences.

We all have a common goal though no matter what our belief system.

I've always been fascinated by theology and even minored in Comparative Religions in college.

I've also always been fascinated my Mary the mother of Jesus, because from what I have read she too raised a challenging son.  Much has been written about him as a young man.

I just read an amazing book called The Testament of Mary by Colm Toibin. It's a short novel and tells the story of Mary many years after Jesus's crucifixion.  The authors of the Gospel are somewhat hounding her and she's an old woman trying to make sense of what happened.

Spoiler alert!  Those who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible may find this novel offensive.

[Reality]

Myself, I like Elizabeth, Mary's cousin.  They are so contented together, waiting for their two sons to be born.  Then... .  

John is beheaded... .  

Jesus dies on the cross... .  

Their lives cut short in violent ways... .  

Reality

[qcarolr]

Great thread - so thrilled that it keeps growing. Takes so much strength and courage for us to continue with our struggling kids - feeding our spirits just as valuable as feeding our minds and bodies. I have so many words and ideas swirling about all this, just not ready to share in any readable form yet. But I am listening and pondering.

qcr  

[whiletheseasonspass]

Hello,

I don't have much more to add to the interesting contemplative posts here except to say that it seems that those who really really can let go and let God- and really really let go- believing that God will take over and they say a huge weight was lifted - I envy this.  I've had a couple of weights lifted from me and will touch on that a bit- but I do not believe as those whom I envy believe.  I could really use such a belief.  But we can't force what isn't there.  

The thing is that I used to believe.  That is how I was brought up.    I remember the exact day something like a gong went off in me- and some logic took the place of my belief.  I was about 20 years old.  I won't get into that but  I remember the conflict that came to me and logic won over- I think to believe fully there is no logic... .  not the kind of logic I was hit with.  

I am in Al Anon.  So I do have a problem with a Higher Power.  So to complete Step one  - that we are Powerless over certain situations- is as far as I've gotten- and actually to understand that we are POWERLESS can be POWERFUL.  Just to turn all of our crises over to a Higher Power-  I wish I could.  But if one realizes one is Powerless -and you don't really believe in the Higher Power as some devout people do-  then what.

When you realize you are POWERLESS over certain situations-  you have no choice but to let go- for why hold onto what you have no power over.  So where does "it all" go then?  What becomes of what you have let go of- like one might let go of a huge bouquet of helium balloons that have been stuck in your grip- while you sleep or drive or shower or dress... .  etc.  A clumsy cumbersome clump of helium balloons.   What you have held onto- and then let go of-  has to go somewhere.  Some might call this a form of acceptance- like in the Serenity Prayer.  But then what about the PAIN OF KNOWING THAT YOU CANNOT CHANGE WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOUR OWN CHILD- you are powerless- so there is  knowing you ARE powerless and don't have a Higher Power belief to take it from you?   For me- I have not reached the acceptance phase of what has happened to my beloved dd- if I were to bring back talk of the Serenity Prayer- accept that which you cannot change.  It is my dd.  I could accept if a tornado blew my house away- and took all of the contents- as long as we were all safe.  That is what I hear the tornado victims say- "WE are all safe."  I want my dd to be safe.  I want her to be saved.  But no.  

All that said-  I sound discouraging and discouraged- but still I am  open and I do pray but I am skeptical- yet I have felt the benefit of prayer - a couple of times in big ways- to have something lifted and two times something was lifted and I did not know what would be lifted - just asked for SOME OF THE WEIGHT to be lifted and on two occasions each time - something was lifted- . Very confusing eh?   I once saw Higher Power written as Infinite Intelligence- and somehow I can wrap my brain around that.  It is hard for me to be fully skeptical.  

I am not confused although it sounds like I am.  Or maybe I am.   Maybe just open to a limited amount of belief.  This felt really good to share and I am glad for all of you who shared.  And I am grateful for this thread.  Thank you cfh for starting it.

At any rate I thought hard about putting the following link here for I do not want to offend anyone - and maybe some of you have read this- a friend gave me the magazine and today I found the article online.  It is from Time Magazine- about Mother Teresa's private struggles with her faith.

I feel like I should be on the religious board putting this here ( I don't ever to go there and do not know if it still is there so forgive me if I am putting this in the improper place but this thread IS about religion)

Here is the link to the 6 page (online) article

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1655720,00.html

Take care everyone

 

[Reality]

I am not being flippant here.

I think dear Mother Theresa is a great example of opposite action.  Despite enormous emptiness and lack of meaning, feeling deserted, she practised opposite action for years, caring for the dying and the very poor.  An unbelievable story of choices made despite her deep-seated feelings of existential despair.  The lady wasn't perfect.  To me, she is a saint.

Reality

[inkling16]

There's a notion--Jesus as BPD? Doesn't hold a normal job or have a stable significant other, charismatic and charming enough to get people to drop out of their lives to follow him, very dependent on his friends while constantly giving them a hard time, black and white thinking, periodic troubles with authority figures. If Mary came and posted here, she would not stick out at all. I'm sure she had some very bad moments as a mom, and not just at the end.

I am agnostic, and I have to admit that whenever I consider the possibility that all this trouble is part of God's plan, I realize that if that's the case, God's plan is so obscure to me that it's easier to believe there isn't one. It's certainly no comfort to think that there is, and I have seen too many people undone by the pressures of life to believe that each one is given only what they can handle. Contradictory evidence is everywhere, especially for people dealing with mental illnesses--either their own or a loved one's. 

What helps me most is the realization that my child's problems have to do with her brain chemistry and wiring. She doesn't want to be the way she is, and we didn't do anything to cause it (beyond passing down some questionable genes, which could have come from either side of the family or both). I don't need a reason, or to have God's plan as a justification. Everyone's got stuff to deal with, and this is ours.