Temporary Custody Hearing Friday

[Dragonfly24]

After a few months, I finally got an expedited hearing, which was orginally scheduled for June is now scheduled next Friday.  My therapist just mentioned to be prepared for the judge to rule no supervision needed... .  I understand it does depend on the judge, but what is it that I have to present that my 2 year old child is not safe with a man that never wanted to be a part of his life, someone who raged at him or his mom uncontrollably, someone who ignored him, someone who's moods are so unpredictable... .  I could go on a narcissistic, ambient abuser whom has threatened suicide on multiple occasions, continues to try and work his way in to get me tangled up and controllable again, not really caring about his son.  He doesn't have a job, is going to run out of money and basically I am terrified.  I am more in control than this sounds, because court is something that I have no complete control over, but at the same time I am scared I am not preparing myself enough. 

What happens during this 15-20 minute hearing?  Why do both my lawyer and therapist need to warn me that I may not be able to keep my husband away from being alone with my son? 

Can anyone help me at all with:  What does the court need to hear from me?

He was involuntarily committed in June, quit his job willingly in April and left on good terms (has working compacity) and still does not have a job and has not filed for disability, he's threatened suicide on at least 4 occasions with 3 911 calls from me, left the country vowing he wasnt coming back till he was healed but continued to send me incoherent emails and returned only 2 weeks later, does not comply with my request for email only communication.

Anything you can share I would be very grateful, trying to calm myself down and get my head straight and focused on my case:  organizing emails, documents, texts, voicemails... .  

[livednlearned]

After a few months, I finally got an expedited hearing, which was orginally scheduled for June is now scheduled next Friday.  My therapist just mentioned to be prepared for the judge to rule no supervision needed... .  I understand it does depend on the judge, but what is it that I have to present that my 2 year old child is not safe with a man that never wanted to be a part of his life, someone who raged at him or his mom uncontrollably, someone who ignored him, someone who's moods are so unpredictable... .  I could go on a narcissistic, ambient abuser whom has threatened suicide on multiple occasions, continues to try and work his way in to get me tangled up and controllable again, not really caring about his son.  He doesn't have a job, is going to run out of money and basically I am terrified.  I am more in control than this sounds, because court is something that I have no complete control over, but at the same time I am scared I am not preparing myself enough. 

What happens during this 15-20 minute hearing?  Why do both my lawyer and therapist need to warn me that I may not be able to keep my husband away from being alone with my son? 

Can anyone help me at all with:  What does the court need to hear from me?

He was involuntarily committed in June, quit his job willingly in April and left on good terms (has working compacity) and still does not have a job and has not filed for disability, he's threatened suicide on at least 4 occasions with 3 911 calls from me, left the country vowing he wasnt coming back till he was healed but continued to send me incoherent emails and returned only 2 weeks later, does not comply with my request for email only communication.

Anything you can share I would be very grateful, trying to calm myself down and get my head straight and focused on my case:  organizing emails, documents, texts, voicemails... .  

Hi dragonfly24,

He was involuntarily committed in June? Can you say more about what led to that, and where he was committed, for how long?

It's hard to know why your L and T are cautioning you about the judge ruling supervision during visits with your son, but I'm guessing they want you to know what many of us here have learned -- it's a marathon, not a sprint. Having said that, there are many good things working in your favor. Your son is young, you are the mother (there is a stronger mother bias the younger the kids are), your ex was committed and you have evidence that he attempted suicide. No judge wants to rule on a case where a toddler is left alone while a parent commits suicide. Since your ex has been committed, the 20 minute hearing is likely to focus on his treatment, what he is doing to get better, what happened, how fit is he to spend time with the 2 year old.

In general, courts do not care about what happens before the divorce. They tend to start the clock once you file for divorce, and assume that any parent can and will become a better parent once they are out of the bad marriage. Unfortunately, most courts do not understand PDs, and don't know that high-conflict marriages tend to remain high-conflict divorces.

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? It will help you understand how family courts work, which is priceless for those of us that have no experience with it. Eddy also knows about PDs, and writes about how PDs and court work together. If nothing else, see if you can pick up a copy before your hearing just so you feel prepared.

[Dragonfly24]

He was involuntarily committed because he was suicidal, he told he wanted to die, he asked me to help him die, he went from rage to sobbing and drooling, to destroying property in our house.  I called 911 after speaking to his psychiatrist office who encouraged me to get him to go to an ER, he was taking Zoloft but very low dosage 25 mg and xanax for anxiety or sleep when needed.  He was also taking and abusing his Adderall prescription and not sleeping, panicking, perseverating, withdrawing... .  unpredictable.  When I called 911, it was also after he threatened to "take all these pills unless I called my father and cursed him off" which was only 3 ativan so I knew he wasn't serious and when I refused trying to get him to calm down he took only 2, and then crawled around on the floor saying he couldn't move or think, made himself throw up, begged me to help him die.  Ambulance came and he bounced back so quick into a very calm person speaking as if I was wrong, they took him to the hospital and he fled before I could get the paper work in to the county official.  After many long hours, I told him he had to go to the ER and he agreed.  The ER watched him for hours, tried to talk him into voluntarily committing himself, but he refused and tried to run, then was restrained and sedated. 

He was placed by the hospital in a short term facility to "stabilize him".  He stayed for 9 days and then came back with larger dose of Zoloft, Seroquel and Xanax, and they took him off Adderall, and recommeneded no caffeine, diet, therapy and exercise... .  he refused to listen to me or the doctors and continued to go back to his original psychiatrist and started taking Adderall again without my knowledge at first and would not stop caffeine intake and continued to exist dysfunctioally- many times I took my son somewhere else for the night or two because he couldn't control his rages or emotions- he was really angry with me and then really loving and back again... .  I finally got my head out of the FOG and secretly moved out with my son end of october and haven't been back since. 

I allow him to see him 2 times a week supervised with multiple people I trust that he can use if he doesn't wish to my parents house to see him, but typically he comes here to spend time with him. 

[livednlearned]

Wow. That's a lot to go through, dragonfly. Do you have support for you?

I haven't been on these boards for as long as some people, so maybe others can chime in -- but it seems like unless you have a totally checked out judge, you will likely be given an extension of what you are currently doing. Meaning, supervised visits. Unless your H's lawyer offers something dynamite as an alternative, the judge will probably give your ex some conditional criteria he needs to meet in order to change the status quo of the past few months. If your H is not motivated -- which is often the case with the BPD dads (sorry, but it seems true in my experience) -- then your H's L is probably going to be quite passive. It won't seem that way, but that's how it will end up. You'll hear awful, untrue things about yourself, and the judge will probably treat both of you like you're 6 years old, but the end result will be in your favor, even if it doesn't feel like anyone "wins."

I'm not a lawyer, just offering my own impression based on what you've said.

My N/BPDxh had some kind of manic episode last summer, sent over 100+ messages in 12 hours, all night long, while S11 was with him. As a result, he did not see S11 for 6 weeks. Then N/BPDx was given 4 hours unsupervised visitation on Sat, and 4 on Sundays. Plus Skype for 30 min MWF at 6pm. His L has withdrawn from the case, and the parenting coordinator involved in our case requested a psych eval. N/BPDxh told the evaluating psychiatrist that his episode was due to a mixture of prescription drugs (ambien and adderall, and some post-surgery medication) and discovering some conspiracy that involved his L learning I had an extramarital affair and telling N/BPDx. That last part doesn't make sense because... .  it's crazy. He's crazy.

Keep in mind too that there is always the possibility that your two Ls will be able to agree on something, and the judge is just there as a fall-back. It happened in my case, which was kind of pieced together, unlike some of the other cases here. My ex and I were able to settle some things but not others, and it was one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back.

[ForeverDad]

His history of suicidal ideation is troubling.  That should receive a lot of focus during the hearing.  As society has been very slowly learning during the past decades, just because someone has been doing better after starting meds or getting stabilized in an artificial environment such as a hospital or rehab center, that doesn't mean the person will stay better.  This will require ongoing and indefinite management.

Be sure you push for all contact he has with your children to be conditioned upon monitored behaviors.  Court doesn't like leaving things undone.  They like to order short term monitoring and then if all goes well, it's ended.  What that means is that when (not if) he relapses again, you'd have to start the legal process seeking monitoring all over again, expensive, time consuming and usually too little too late.  Somehow you and your lawyer have to find a way for you or someone credible who will listen to you to have some long term control over that when court closes the case and walks away.

About the ranting and raging... .  When I called my CPS to report my then-spouse raging and ranting in front of my son, the lady had one question, "Is she raging at the child?"  That was the determining factor for CPS to get involved or not.  As it happened, I said she just raged at me but in front of our preschooler.  The lady said, "Sorry, call back if she rages at your child and until then you better divorce."  Apparently the legal system doesn't even try to protect the children from poor parental behaviors if they're not bad enough.  They must figure it's okay for kids to see, hear and feel bad things as long as they're not directed at them. :'(

So report his raging, but be sure to emphasize any incidents where he directed his wrath, venting, whatever at the children or any other children.  He may get away with raging at you, but the courts are less likely to let him skate if raging at kids.

[GaGrl]

Another issue to document and bring before the judge is that he is not compliant withhis meds and his course of treatment

[Dragonfly24]

Wow. That's a lot to go through, dragonfly. Do you have support for you?

I haven't been on these boards for as long as some people, so maybe others can chime in -- but it seems like unless you have a totally checked out judge, you will likely be given an extension of what you are currently doing. Meaning, supervised visits. Unless your H's lawyer offers something dynamite as an alternative, the judge will probably give your ex some conditional criteria he needs to meet in order to change the status quo of the past few months. If your H is not motivated -- which is often the case with the BPD dads (sorry, but it seems true in my experience) -- then your H's L is probably going to be quite passive. It won't seem that way, but that's how it will end up. You'll hear awful, untrue things about yourself, and the judge will probably treat both of you like you're 6 years old, but the end result will be in your favor, even if it doesn't feel like anyone "wins."

I'm not a lawyer, just offering my own impression based on what you've said.

My N/BPDxh had some kind of manic episode last summer, sent over 100+ messages in 12 hours, all night long, while S11 was with him. As a result, he did not see S11 for 6 weeks. Then N/BPDx was given 4 hours unsupervised visitation on Sat, and 4 on Sundays. Plus Skype for 30 min MWF at 6pm. His L has withdrawn from the case, and the parenting coordinator involved in our case requested a psych eval. N/BPDxh told the evaluating psychiatrist that his episode was due to a mixture of prescription drugs (ambien and adderall, and some post-surgery medication) and discovering some conspiracy that involved his L learning I had an extramarital affair and telling N/BPDx. That last part doesn't make sense because... .  it's crazy. He's crazy.

Keep in mind too that there is always the possibility that your two Ls will be able to agree on something, and the judge is just there as a fall-back. It happened in my case, which was kind of pieced together, unlike some of the other cases here. My ex and I were able to settle some things but not others, and it was one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back.

Thank you, I do have support, my therapist is my angel right now.  I have my parents, whom I am living with right now to help me, and wonderful friend but otherwise I am stuck paying for a car he drives bc it is in my name, 10,000 in debt that we have accrued together (mostly him) and full responsibility for our son as well as working full time as a teacher. 

I really am unsure as to how this will go next week, my lawyer said its a "cattle call" and could be waiting all day to be seen and only 15-20 , minutes to decide if my actual hearing is appropriate to be expedited from the set June date.  So, this may only be a meeting to say yes we will grant you a hearing earlier than that or depending on the judge they may make a decision for temporary primary custody. 

The concern is also if we are asked about child support and it is something the judge wants to begin determining it could mean looking back at his previous employment and he was making 70K, so if they continue to add up support and he is unable to pay he could end up in jail... .  I am not sure how I feel about this.  There is so much emotion wrapped into personal integrity, like if I pursue this I doubt he will be able to pay and ulitmately could end up in jail, which is upsetting bc I don't necessarily want this to be for him nor do i feel it will help him... .  but what alternative do I have if they inquire... .  and he is let off the hook and he continues to be irresponsible and continue to not help and cause me angst with the emails and texts... .  and never really having consequences besides possible foreclosure... .  his house, our house as a married couple, was bought before I married him and does not have my name on it anywhere.    I am really scared for when he completely runs out of money which is soon, bc he has like 300 right now and still no job and not paid mortgage or whatever else he may have in December.  I doubt his family can help him much, if any at all... .  and he pretty much as pushed away all his friends.  I don't know how he will react... .  

[Dragonfly24]

Somehow you and your lawyer have to find a way for you or someone credible who will listen to you to have some long term control over that when court closes the case and walks away.

What do you mean by this?  We need to find someone credible to have long term control?

About the ranting and raging... .  When I called my CPS to report my then-spouse raging and ranting in front of my son, the lady had one question, "Is she raging at the child?"  That was the determining factor for CPS to get involved or not.  As it happened, I said she just raged at me but in front of our preschooler.  The lady said, "Sorry, call back if she rages at your child and until then you better divorce."  Apparently the legal system doesn't even try to protect the children from poor parental behaviors if they're not bad enough.  They must figure it's okay for kids to see, hear and feel bad things as long as they're not directed at them. :'(

This is so horrible to hear, because it is what I have read about and being a special education teacher, I know exactly how and why things affect kids and what behaviors happen... .  and how stunted emotionally they can become.  I was in the FOG, it was unreal... .  but i am forceful enough in my opinions to say IT IS NOT OK!  Why does the court believe otherwise at times... .  i am filing for custody, I am away from my abuser, I am seeking help, I am creating a safe and comfortable environment for him to feel loved and grow.  What makes it ok to have a relationship with a parent who doesn't really care about you, who cannot control their irrational feelings and emotions, whether physical or verbal or emotional... .  whatever you call it, it is abuse and it does have an effect!  I feel blessed to have had the support and reached my limit before my child got older, he's only 2, but the nightmares of hearing him yell at his father for yelling at me and the trauma he had experienced because his father screamed at him so loud, he fell silent and scared to death to move... .  then ran and cried into my arms while having his father then tear into me.  running out of the house when his father wasn't looking, putting him in the car without telling him why because I was scared... .  and then giving him to someone else for nights here and there not knowing what happened... .  bc he is 2 and cannot understand.  The ambient abuse was so hard so hard to see through, my son cannot go through what I went through

So report his raging, but be sure to emphasize any incidents where he directed his wrath, venting, whatever at the children or any other children.  He may get away with raging at you, but the courts are less likely to let him skate if raging at kids.

[Dragonfly24]

sorry I am not good with quoting yet!  I did respond within your text Foreverdad!

[Rose1]

Have you considered that he is controlling himself exactly the way he wants to? It sounds a little like my ex (not as bad) crawling around on the floor etc, planning "suicide". It was drama stuff to get my and others attention. Not to say he wouldn't accidentally do it.  What makes me think this is your comment about his behaviour around you then suddenly changing when the ambulance came. My ex could also control his behaviour most of the time when he felt like it but would wind himself up into a rage. He could snap out of that quite quickly once his audience removed herself (took me a long time to be comfortable with that). The out there behaviour is very confronting and used to control the other party - quite deliberately I believe. Last time I saw something similar was at my ex FIL's funeral - exBPDh had quite an audience around him while he threatened that he couldn't restrain himself because his D's and me and my DH were there (he didn't want the granddaughters at the funeral and didn't tell them their grandfather had died). So his wife and friends were there trying to help him restrain himself  we mostly ignored him and sat with relatives. DH and D's tried to go up to him to talk to him and offer condolences but he ran off with his wife running after him - I looked at her and thought "that's what I used to do". It gave him a lot of attention, DH was told it was because we didn't leave immediately - hard to do when relatives were wanting to talk to the granddaughters and nieces. He really didn't care about propriety, others feelings etc as long as he had an audience which he used his bad behaviour to keep around him. Pathetic really for a 60 year old man. He hasn't spoken to D's since and NC is wonderful.

Rose

[Rose1]

That is not to say I think the behaviour is ok - it's far from ok. My D27 remembers clearly her BPDf smashing dishes on the floor and us having to leave the house in a hurry - in fact she says it's about all she remembers of that time. I don't think that's quite true but it obviously had a great impact on her and she was about 10. So even if this behaviour is staged, it is still destructive and unacceptable. I agree that this needs to be focused on in court - it is not ok for a person to abuse medication and crawl around on the floor drooling and saying help me die, in front of kids. That is as abusive as doing it to them and btw that's where it ends up eventually anyway. When my D was about 16 he started on the suicide stuff with her. I put an end to it immediately by taking the phone and telling him the men in white coats were about to be called. He straight away told me he wouldn't have to tell my D he felt like that if I had treated him better - see, no responsibility, no remorse, just blame. Anyway that made an impression on D as well. When he tried it again some years later she said she would call the ambulance. To my knowledge those are the only 2 times he tried the suicide stuff with her. Being held responsible for his behaviour stopped the behaviour with her, not necessarily with other people as I know he threatened suicide to others. He knows who to pick.

I think you need to let the court process happen - if he doesn't get a job or runs out of money, that is his responsibility and he should be prepared to take consequences.  We in the FOG run around and fix things all the time - not a long term solution at all and in some ways reinforces the bad behaviour.

One other thing that concerns me - him driving your car. What sort of situation does that put you in with insurance etc should he have an accident? Try and either get the car back or in his name if you are prepared to let him have it - if it is financed he won't likely get finance at th

[Rose1]

... .  sorry - a glitch. He won't get finance if he is not working and I understand the dilemma but you need to reduce your risks as quickly as possible. As the divorce continues his behaviour is likely to become more and more erratic.

Hope things work out with court.

Rose

[ForeverDad]

if they continue to add up support and he is unable to pay he could end up in jail... .  I am not sure how I feel about this.

Here's how to feel:  He's an adult, not a child.  While everyone, even children, get consequences, adults have to shoulder the responsibility and credit/harm of their consequences.

It's not you "doing it to him", it's court (and life) setting a reasonable standard.  Whether he chooses to comply, cooperate or obstruct, it's his choice to own.  Let him own it.  Let him step up and stand - or fall.  Whatever, whichever.

Observation:  I've heard of very few parents mentioned here who actually went to jail over child support.  Sure, it happens, but I don't think it's very often.  Family courts have potential teeth in the laws but most of the time their consequences are toothless - and the one misbehaving knows it.  Courts love to throw that threat of jail around but they generally only chew out the parents rather than bite them hard.

[livednlearned]

About Rose1's comment on the car, liability, insurance -- you may not be able to do anything. I wasn't (my ex was an alcoholic, I was worried about drinking/driving accidents). The insurance company said I could not take him off insurance without his consent (and vice versa) -- for good reason. And if he went off insurance, but you're on the title, if something happens to him, or he does something to someone else, there is no insurance to protect you.

It stinks. The best thing to do is to get divorced as soon as you can.

It sounds like Friday is simply a hearing to determine the seriousness of the case. Given what you have said, take heart that the court will probably be very cautious and conservative, and anything that gets put temporarily in place (you as primary custodial parent) becomes much more difficult for him to change when you have a full hearing.

It's very easy to go to the dark place when you're worried sick about your child, yourself, your finances, and your stbx. I was equally as anxious and worried about the worse-case scenario all the time. Try to breathe, truly truly breathe. Start paying attention to the scenarios you run in your head, and notice how they make you feel tense. You need to relax as much as possible for your daughter's sake if you can't bring yourself to do it for your own sake. It's going to be ok -- maybe not right away, and it won't be easy, but it's going to be ok. You're a good mother and you're doing the right thing for your daughter. You'll probably be surprised by your own resilience and strength as you go through this.

Fortunately, you're not alone.  

[Rose1]

Being on the title is the main problem I think - that possibly makes you liable for fines as well - it does here. Insurance - if you are not on the title DH found that cancelling the insurance and changing to a new company sorted that one out. It was done between states though so that might have made it easier, plus the vehicle was not in his name and sufficient notice was given for her to change it over.

Like a lot of pwBPD she found resistance and not doing anything that has been requested or court ordered had little consequences. Even when the court ordered her to pay for something she argued about it and demanded they make him pay. In one case she had credit card debts that went to court - she refused to show up and as far as I know has never paid them and still seems to dodge responsibility - no idea how they manage that. Maybe they use bad behaviour to intimidate - my exBPDh was good at that.

Rose

[ForeverDad]

In the USA I believe the law is that if you're living separately, then you should have separate insurance policies.  If you inform the insurance company that you're separated, then they might send the other person notice that they need to start a new policy since the autos aren't "garaged" at the same address.  My ex was given 30 or 60 days to get her own policy as I recall.  This was done in the middle of my 2 year divorce case, however she owned her car and I owned mine and so ownership and titles were not an issue.

Come to think of it, her car may have been in my name and so I probably just signed ownership over to her, she would have gotten it anyway in the settlement.

[Dragonfly24]

Being on the title is the main problem I think - that possibly makes you liable for fines as well - it does here. Insurance - if you are not on the title DH found that cancelling the insurance and changing to a new company sorted that one out. It was done between states though so that might have made it easier, plus the vehicle was not in his name and sufficient notice was given for her to change it over.

I am financing the car and my ex needed me to do it bc he couldn't get a good rate with his terrible credit.  How do I go about signing it over to him?  Would he have to go get his own loan?  Because I doubt he'll do that... .  I also believe these are things I have left bc my L mentioned not to take the car from him right now... .  so I can't even sell a car I am at risk for getting fines for unpaid tix and more... .  I was told I couldn't get a residency change in my new state for at least 6 months, so would I even be able to change my insurance policy?  Also, it would benefit me to be able to change because I get a city wage tax deducted from my salary every 2 weeks that's pretty significant each month!

[Rose1]

I would have another talk to your lawyer regarding risks and benefits - the risk of being stuck with a bill or wrecked car against the benefit of selling it.  If there is any money in the car you could buy a cheap one in your H's name and give it to him - that way he has a car. He would need to refinance to get the loan in his name and obviously that won't happen. In a divorce situation I see no reason why both parties don't lower their standard of living if necessary, rather than just one. My personal opinion is that I would sell the car and get out of the loan and out of the risk. Your lawyer would have to make a pretty compelling argument otherwise.

[livednlearned]

I would have another talk to your lawyer regarding risks and benefits - the risk of being stuck with a bill or wrecked car against the benefit of selling it.  If there is any money in the car you could buy a cheap one in your H's name and give it to him - that way he has a car. He would need to refinance to get the loan in his name and obviously that won't happen. In a divorce situation I see no reason why both parties don't lower their standard of living if necessary, rather than just one. My personal opinion is that I would sell the car and get out of the loan and out of the risk. Your lawyer would have to make a pretty compelling argument otherwise.

I have a good L and she was not all that helpful -- you may find calling your insurance agent is actually more helpful (and cheaper!). Keep calling until you find someone who knows what he or she is talking about. Then shoot your L a simple one sentence email to clarify.

It adds up, all the legal stuff, and it's a long haul through the courts for many of us. Anywhere you can clip coupons, might as well do so