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Author Topic: To validate or not to validate? That is the question.  (Read 1149 times)
mary290

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« on: January 10, 2013, 01:18:45 PM »

Need guidance:  in a nutshell, my dd22, who has not lived with us for 4 years,  has, let's say an 'obsession', with showing her body.  In pictures.  On Facebook.  To her 947 'friends'.  Wearing next to nothing.  She is very cute and gets a lot of positive feedback from her friends.  Suffice to say I am not one of those people who gives her positive feedback.  No, more like ":), GET TAKE THOSE PICTURES DOWN RIGHT NOW OR I WILL NEVER SEND YOU ANOTHER PENNY AND WE WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER!  IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?"  Did I mention I am new to this whole BPD thing?... .  

Needless to say, she would become ENRAGED at my chastisement, furious at my inability to accept her 'art' and then, after a specific period of cooling off for both of us, she would tell me that this is her and this is who she is.  (Sidebar:  she has been a stripper not because she needed the money but b/c she actually LIKES it!  She loves the attention she gets from men in these settings.  It is so sad and tragic - I know I do not have to explain to you all that dh and I gave her LOTS of positive attention and support and that I do not hold myself to blame but of course, who couldn't blame themselves in this situation?). Anyway, now, after reading more and more about validation and BPD (and as the pieces start to fall into place) I am feeling more and more confused about how to proceed.  Her last text to me was about how I only miss her when I have my perfect child and that she is tired of trying to be someone she's not.  I have never expected perfection and she knows that.  She is in full blown victim mode now.  Meanwhile, she dropped out of college and is doing more and more modeling and also got a bit part in some movie.  I fear down to my core that porn is just a short step away.  Typing this just makes me sick to my stomach. 

So here's my question:  do I say "hey, saw some pics of you recently... .  you look pretty.  And congrats on the movie role, you must be excited!"  Or do I say nothing.  I could add things like "the picture of you in the long sleeve shirt and the one of you in jeans were both really nice.  How about maybe combining the 2 so you have BOTH pants AND a shirt on!"  Afraid she might think I was nagging... .  I have to keep my sense of humor or I swear I will find myself an rtc... .  

So do I validate things I despise?  Hoping she will maybe not make such an effort to rebel if she knows I am not that bothered by this stuff?  She certainly shows traits of histrionic pd in her insatiable quest for attention.  She did theatre from 8 yo up and she loves to be center stage.  She HATES to be alone and I know some of these traits are just her and who she is.  I really wish I could find a support group called M.O.S.H... .  mothers of strippers and hookers.  Anyone else having this problem?
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 01:54:08 PM »

Maybe you could validate the things that you do like and ignore the things you don't.  I don't always love the way my daughter dresses ( sometimes a bit to provocative for me) so I will compliment what I do like.  I love the way you did your makeup today... .  I love when you pull your hair up like that.  If she asks me if I like her shirt and it is a little too low cut for me I will say something like well that really isn't my style, I'm a bit more reserved.  This way I get my point across but I make it about me.  You also might tell her you are happy about her movie part and ask her about it.  I think many times our kids need validation to feel good about themselves. The problem is that they often do not see much success at other things so they capitalize on what they can.  In this case it is her physical appearance. Maybe validating her accomplishment of the movie part would be good.

Griz
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determined NMS

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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 03:33:47 PM »

Something I've had to try to grapple with and come to terms with is validation and responding to my dd is no longer about trying to mold her into how I want her to be. I find it hard the things she says ans does on fb but I just ignore this. Try to validate thing you are hppy with. stop giving advice as it will only come back and bite you x
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 03:53:41 PM »

Mary290 -

My dd19 might have been a clone of yours if her physical disorder had not disabled her because she took such horrible care of herself.

She was addicted to "online dating"... .  read sick old guys and/or criminals, gangsters, pimps, druggies... .  and not until she was abused to the point by one of them did she find a hole to crawl into with pot head bf.

However I have no doubt that she misses the attention of the old lifestyle, and would go back to it in a flash if she were not pregnant and in a wheelchair. She also did not post her really bad sexual stuff on FB, as I had access to it and would have deleted it when she was under age. But the photos, the porn, and the ugly awful guys were on many hook up sites, and I think the material even shocked the police investigator who confiscated the computer of the 42 year old biker who eventually went to jail. She finally left home without finishing high school because she needed 24/7 physical attention from a guy... .  guys... .  and we finally said no more.

My biggest gripe about FB right now is that she has "friends" who are /were not ever (and this is like reality tv to them) however they know my son (and she hit on a lot of them in school) with whom he is on teams or in band or in classes... .  poor kid. I did all of the same "chastising", and got all the same responses ... .  still am at times if you read my posts!

So now I just try to ignore the postings on FB... .  the tattoos, the "carvings" (ICK!), the sexual comments, and when I text I try to tell her something newsy about the family, the neighborhood, old friends. 

I do not bring up or discuss her past regarding old boyfriends, stealing, drug use, sex clubs, sneaking out... .  etc. Off limits. One thing I have learned - if she did it yesterday, it was eons ago in her mind. Not even relevant. Over.

As long as I keep it light, with no substance, she is happier, because she also is ignoring all of the deep stuff we cannot reach.

She treats me like &*(*& when she wants something and doesn't get it, and always threatens legal action.

I ignore it and tell her we can talk about it when she calms down.

I would recommend distance, and not looking at her FB. Unfriend her. She is an adult with issues. Everyone can see that... .  those who care won't have her as a friend, and those who don't you don't want to have anything to do with anyway.

And don't give her any money... .  it just becomes a source of blackmail! I realized that the things I give her have to be gifts - never to be returned, maybe sold for weed money on ebay... .  so they cannot be special to me.

Let go of the daughter you imagined for now... .  she may evolve into something more like it as she matures.

FM









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onetiredmom

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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 04:18:24 PM »

We also unfriended our daughter.  Hopefully others we love and respect will do the same.  We have had parents call us and report that dd18 has been harassing or abusing their children on FB.  I told them she is 18, please feel free to press charges. 

I have no control over what she does.  I am working to control how humiliating I find it.  Hopefully others will understand she is obviously mentally ill.  I sure wish that wasn't so.

OTM
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mary290

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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 04:25:26 PM »

Griz, I swear you should be teaching classes in this stuff!  (Are you?). You have great advice.  Determined, I also agree with you.  I really do love her and accept her even if I don't agree with all of her choices.  We constantly reinforce the good choices and behavior and I know I need to let go of the bad.  It is just so hard.  It is so frustrating when they have so many opportunities and yet one by one, they watch them go by.

Frustrated, I am so sorry your daughter is in a wheelchair and can only imagine you must have mixed feelings with the pregnancy.  I really appreciate your sharing and advice.  We do not send her any money anymore although up until this past December, we were supporting her 100%.  School, rent, food, gas, everything.  She was enrolled full time at our best public university but then self destructed after insisting on taking 21 credit hours.  In one semester.  We begged her not to and when we asked her about her grades over the Christmas break she became furious, stormed off and that was that.  That is all in another post somewhere.  Anyway, she wouldn't take money from us at tis point even if we offered.  I am still paying her portion of the cell bill ($46) and her car insurance although we took the car back when she told us she was done with us.

Also, regarding FB, we have not been friends for over a year.  I check on her through my son's account and I know I should not do this!  I know, I know.  My husband hates to see me so sad.  I take it all so personally.  Like what kind of daughter have I raised?  Ugh.

Sadly, I feel like I have learned too little too late.  But I guess it's better than if she was even older.  Thanks for listening.
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mary290

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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 09:46:09 PM »

Onetiredmom, I know!  I hate that all these people she has friended see her undressed like this.  It is mortifying.  And she friends EVERYONE she has ever met.  Including friends of mine and my husbands, relatives who are very conservative, etc.  I am just now reading in Valerie Porr's book how pwBPD can seem so normal on the outside.  I also hope people know she is mentally ill but I am sure they are shaking their heads too.  Gee,  I'm her mom and I didn't even know until recently.   Good grief.
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 03:42:07 AM »

Hi Mary  

You must be so disappointed, none of us expected our gorgeous little babies to turn out like this, its so heartbreaking and it annoys me how they can be so exploited by men. They dont care abo0ut their mental state just as long as they get what they want and look at strippers etc so sad.

What I wanted to say was we do not validate the invalid. Valerie Porrs book talks about this.

I mean, when my dd was 14 and smoking, I wouldnt validate that, I dont validate her tattoos, she knows I hate them, I dont need to keep reminding her of that either, she needs to know I dont like it but thats enough then.

My friends dd seems to have something like BPD and for a while she kept texting me while she was drunk, I hated it because she was so stupid. So I just sent her a text back saying, "Ill always be here for you, and its nice that you are texting me but I just wonder if you would do me a favour, would you not text me if you are drunk, I just dont like it. I really do care about you, and I really understand why you feel you need to do it but I would rather talk to you when you are not drunk"

So I dint validate her being drunk but I tried to validate her feelings.

What can I say when my dd has a new tattoo and I hate them. She shows me, hmmmm, what to say   Ok, you were very sensible going to a good place that was clean and did a good job, also good idea to get it done there because you could hide it if you ever needed to.

Hmmmm photos nearly naked on fb. first of all I wont look anymore, delete her as a friend so I dont see. Its a battle I dont need to get involved with unless she is under 18. I may keep trying to subtly say things like isnt it sad how women are exploited, its not about what people look like its how they are on the inside. Looks are shallow, its nice you are not shallow. That kind of thing.

Hope you work things out, its good we all have this site isnt it. Much needed
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sunshineplease
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 11:11:07 AM »

My understanding is that we want to validate the feelings behind the behavior, not necessarily the behavior itself. I'm very new at this, as well, but I'm thinking I might try something along the lines of "When I saw the pictures you posted, I thought you looked so happy and proud. I know I'd enjoy looking as beautiful as you do. I especially enjoyed the picture where you were smiling sideways at the camera [or whatever], because it reminded me of the look you got when you were little and you heard your grandparents' car in the driveway!" That would be simple validation, plus some supportive connection (sharing what you liked), right? I'm not sure you need to do more than that, especially if she's not used hearing/accepting validation from you. (Not that you don't give it, but you know how pwBPD sometimes hear "differently."
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« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2013, 11:56:26 AM »

Hello mary290,

I can see why you would be going in circles with the skill of validation given the circumstance in which you working on applying it.

We can use positive reinforcement (paying attention to what we find positive rather than giving attention to what we find negative) when making comments on their actions or appearance.

The skill of validation, like sunshineplease mentions, is about validating their feelings. 

Hope that helps you.

lbj

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mary290

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« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 02:08:52 PM »

My dh's birthday was Sunday and I texted dd to 'remind her' of this.  She did text her dad 'happy birthday'.  He replied thanks and hoped her movie part was going well.  This was the first time we mentioned anything about her movie part.  I did not know he put this in a text to her and the next thing I knew she sends me a text literally saying "gee, thanks for the reminder.  What a lovely response text I got from him.  Consider this our last communication, I'm absolutely done trying to play nice with you two."  Huh?  We text back and forth trying to tell her his comment was sincere and we really do both hope she is well.  But she is not buying it.  She says that she doubts the sincerity and since we "know the content of the movie" how could we possibly be happy for her?  I reply that we only know it is a horror/teen slasher movie and are not aware of the specific content.  These are not the kinds of movies we watch so I really don't know what's it's about.  Anyway, I basically told her I hope she is working with a good group of people and that she is safe.  Her reaction?  She angrily called my sister in law and lambasted her for "telling dh and me" about the movie role.  She then unfriended SIL and my son.  I am relieved as I hated that my 18 yo son was seeing his sister's FB page and pictures.  So now I really do not know what she is doing on FB anymore.  She has also successfully alienated every single family member.  Thank God she still has her bf and he is a great guy.  He told us she is finding living on her own and paying her own way to be much harder than she thought.  Well yeah... .  

I know she is just freaked out angry and probably scared too as she realizes what she has done to alienate everyone and cut herself off from us especially financially.  She had a good thing going:  she was just supposed to stay in school full time and get at least a 3.2 gpa and we would pay for everything until graduation.  So she has completed about 2 years of college but now she is on her own.  Meanwhile I am reading Valerie Porr's book and gaining insight daily.  Dh and I are just going to let some time pass and wait for her to reach out to us.  Her bf will tell us if there is anything seriously wrong so we do have that.  Now we are just trying to figure out if we are keeping her on our car insurance and phone plan.  We took back the car she was borrowing from us but I know she can borrow bf's car or other friends' cars.  Waiting for call back from insurance agent.  I don't want to be liable if she has an accident or something worse.  I am treading lightly here but since she is so mad at us and wants nothing to do with us is making her get her own phone plan and dropping her from our insurance adding insult to injury especially given her lack of funds right now?  Or should we just continue to pay?
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« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 06:00:59 PM »

Mary -

First the birthday lambast - read her other possible response:

"I hate that I am in a movie like this doing what I am doing and I don't approve of myself so how can you approve of me, and I don't like people like me so how can you so I don't like you either".

And she knows she has alienated everyone... .  it was a test on which she got an A+.

Clearly your dd does not think she can do school as well as she would like... .  and/or meet your requirements. If I have learned anything it is that if something is too overwhelming for my dd19, it simply is, no matter what anyone says to the contrary. Taking the driving test over because she missed one thing on it. Doing homework for a teacher she thinks "hates her". Going to school and not thinking everyone is judging her.

This kid pulled herself together enough to present bills at our statehouse in front of hundreds of teenagers. The last one was on the statute of limitation for child abuse. How ironic is that?

My dd always pulled the "if you really loved me you wouldn't judge me" and "I am who I am" whoever that is. We know that she still wants to be "educated", but now that is reduced to listening to smart people talk (TED talks) and researching how to grow weed. Education comes in many forms... .  

I have talked to my dd about writing her story down some day, and she really likes the idea. We even talked about doing a parallel novel - with both our voices written in tandem. Good idea, still too painful. But it is a way to talk about what has happened in our lives, together. Maybe (when you are ready to swallow really hard) you can approach your dd in this mode... .  Wondering about this new chapter in her life and what she is learning from it? Bet there are lots of stories to tell! Wasn't it Gloria Steinem who was a playboy bunny and wrote about it? Or whatever her interests are - a play maybe?

Car insurance - no. Tell her when she asks that she became too expensive for you to carry.

Phone - yes. She might need it to communicate with you once she has lost everything else. Can you track her on it? Then tell her it is for her safety.

Don't worry about the family... .  by now they all know she is not what you wanted her to be, but they are looking to you to give it a name. Have you told them she has BPD? I know it's hard, really really really hard... .  but try to understand that her anger is at herself, not you. Right now, she is doing things that makes her feel... .  something... .  but that something has a dark side, and it is disgust.  And she is angry about it.

FM







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mary290

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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 07:49:13 PM »

FM, it is just so hard to figure.  She always gravitates to the sleazy side of life.  She was so happy when she was hired as an exotic dancer.  She tells us she loves her body and does not see any shame in showing it off.  Quite the opposite; she feels very empowered (her word).  I really do try to remain as non judgmental as I can but find this nearly impossible to understand let alone appreciate or condone.  Our happy middle ground was that we simply would not discuss it.  But then I would find out from someone else what she was up to and the emotions would get the best of me. 

I really don't think she is doing this movie b/c she feels she has to.  She actively auditioned and was very happy when she landed the part.  Now granted, she has a lazy side when it involves real work on something she doesn't like.  Like a 9-5 boring job.  I would be so proud if she was flipping burgers or waiting tables.  I cannot feel proud when she earns money by taking her clothes off.  She knows this.  We told her as long as she wasn't working in the adult entertainment field, then we would support her while she was in college.  We asked her to maintain that gpa b/c she is 100% capable of doing this.  She self destructed when she took 21 credit hours.  In one semester.   Our expectations our reasonable (we feel).  My dh just did not want her to take classes, party or not take it seriously, and get mediocre grades.  She is a smart kid.  In retrospect, I wish we had had her get loans and finish school on her own.  We would have then paid off her loans AFTER graduation instead of paying first.  It is just so much harder for kids to get loans after the housing market fell apart.

Thanks for your advice.  I agree with you on phone and car insurance.  And yes, my family now knows about her BPD.  I am just not convinced that my dd is really making these choices b/c she is angry at herself.  Or that she hates this life.  She seems so enthralled with it all. 

Your book idea sounds really interesting.  That could be very therapeutic and educational. 
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 07:14:55 PM »

Hiya,

mary290 it is so frustrating to think you are doing the right thing only to be greeted with another explosion. I have done that so many times... .  I am learning though how to avoid this with my dd32.

I know I have come late to the discusion, but I wanted to add a few things that I have learnt. This is taken from the book on Non Violent Communication by Rosenberg.

He says, when we combine observation with evaluation, people hear criticism. It is preferable to express observation not an evaluation. If we make an evaluation, it needs to be specific of time and place.

So when your dh said I hope your movie part is going well, that would fit the category of an observation with an implicit evaluation. The observation would have been, I hear you are in a movie?

When you say, gee you look pretty in that dress, it is an observation with evaluation and can be read as a criticism, eg yeah, you think I look pretty in a dress but what about who I really am, don't I look pretty in a bikini too? Implicit in the original statement is a judgement.

So we validate feelings. It seems that you are unhappy/angry at what your dad said. I am sorry for that, we didn't mean to make you unhappy.


Re the withdrawl of financial support, I would never make a decision while in the middle of a 'crisis' - and this would be a crisis for me. I would feel as if I am reacting to my emotional response and I need to model clear thinking, not model emotional reaction. To help me decide on financial boundaries, I would go back to my values and see how my boundary fitted my values. Then I would consider is my financial support a support or not. Whatever I did, I would do it with a view to keeping the channels of communication open.

Cheers,

Vivek      
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mary290

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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 10:48:55 PM »

Wow Vivek , that is awesome advice!  You really hit the nail on the head for me.  If we are ever given the chance to speak with our d again, I will definitely put this into practice.  It was never our decision to become estranged nor cut off financial support.  It was 100% her insistence.  She is in such a bad place right now in her mind and absolutely will not have anything to do with us.  She blames dh and me for everything that has gone wrong for her.


I know I did a million things wrong, said all the wrong things in the wrong way at the wrong time.  I honestly did not know about BPD until just recently and now I am playing catch up.  I am reading Valerie Porr's book (or as I like to call it 'A Guide to {insert my d's name here}' but in truth we just need to let some time pass.  We have been estranged before when she was 18 but this is different.  Last time she was going from friend to friend's house and she ended up staying with a good friend for a few months.  Her friend didn't charge rent and lent my d a car.  This time she has an apartment she shares (that dh and I co-signed on... .  hope that doesn't come back to bite me) and she really can't expect financial help from friends like before.  She does, however, have her bf and he I am sure, is picking up the slack for her.

We will see how this all plays out.  Meanwhile, thanks for your thoughts!

Mary
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 09:29:40 PM »

i am so careful when I speak to ds in jail that I have a cheat sheet in front of me so I say the right thing.  The calls are so short and I don't want to risk having anything I say being taken the wrong way.  So far so good!
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2013, 12:46:17 AM »

Hi Mary290,

It was Feb last year when I was in your shoes. Valerie Porr was an eye opener for me when I got to it mid year. It and the other stuff I have read have helped me enormously. I am hoping that this year will be better then the last where dd didn't talk or communicate with me for about 11 months or more.

The best thing for me was this site and the wonderful people here who kept me on track.

One thing I learnt was 'I can't change her, I can only change me' - and that's what I am continuing to work on.

I figure that if I expect her to have therapy and undertake treatment, the least I can do is work on it for myself and do the things I expect her to do... .  or something like that... .  I am working on being ready for when she can talk to me... .  fingers crossed  Smiling (click to insert in post)

cheers,

Vivek    

ps cfh - I love your style 
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