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Author Topic: Distortion of truth and reality; Lying?  (Read 1202 times)
Speedracer
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« on: January 12, 2013, 02:45:59 PM »

I'm having a hard time with my dd 16. This issue is not new. For years she has been known to distort the truth. This week while in therapy, her version of events in our home to the therapist was blatantly distorted and untrue. It made me feel like giving up and very angry. And then I thought, is this a common symptom with BPD? Is this a true mental issue out of her control? While I'm thinking she is manipulating and lying on purpose to further her agenda, I also started thinking, is this child so neurobiologically challenged that she truly cannot see reality? While discussing things with her psych, her depression is being addressed, but she continues to struggle with symptoms of anxiety. They are talking about adding an atypical neuroleptic to her antidepressant. We've been down that road before with good results, but stopped from side effects. I read that a.n. can help with distorted perceptions. Whether we go this route or not, the most important thing I think I realized this week is to stop hating this about her, to stop getting angry & defensive when it happens, and to start radically accepting it. We may or we may not be able to cure it, but we can learn to move beyond it without allowing it to harm our relationship. Does anyone think I make sense, or does anyone have thoughts or feedback on this?
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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
qcarolr
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 03:29:54 PM »

We've been down that road before with good results, but stopped from side effects. I read that a.n. can help with distorted perceptions. Whether we go this route or not, the most important thing I think I realized this week is to stop hating this about her, to stop getting angry & defensive when it happens, and to start radically accepting it. We may or we may not be able to cure it, but we can learn to move beyond it without allowing it to harm our relationship. Does anyone think I make sense, or does anyone have thoughts or feedback on this?

speedracer - moving in the direction of radical acceptance with my DD26's distorted reality has been really helpful for me. I discovered it did give me the choice to get beyond the anger - are maybe underneath the anger - and not take it so personally. It is not my failing as a parent when D tells a story - maybe her version of truth, maybe her perceived 'best chance' to get her needs met even if she 'knows' she is not being truthful. I can let her own her story and whatever results come to her from the telling of it. Sometimes I do have to share my version of reality with a T - have left many a voice message. At 16 are you still included in her treatment without her permission? We lost that connection with DD when she turned 16 in our state - she signed herself off all meds and therapies - "no longer your lab rat mom".

This all sounds so good - and sometimes it works this way for me. Often I still get caught up in DD's life too muich and have to reset -- do the acceptance process again. Coming here has been a life saver for me over and over in getting grounded again.

Thinking of you - qcr  
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The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better. (Dom Helder)
lbjnltx
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 03:38:20 PM »

Dear speedracer,

The distortions may be caused by her emotional processing, pwBPD experience events and process them emotionally rather than through reason/logic.  If they "feel" it ... .  it must be true... .  and to them it is... .  sometimes... .  when presented with the facts that contradict their emotional thinking they defend their version (in order not to invalidate themselves) of the truth by exagerating nuggets of truth so that they fit their version of the story... .  

Does that make sense?

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Speedracer
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 03:59:38 PM »

lbjnltx, yes that makes sense. I have a text to her sister that shows this. She needs to maintain her weight. I had a bunch of food out, but the chicken soup she wanted was not ready yet, I told her if she wanted to wait without eating then that was her choice I could not control, she stomped upstairs and texted her sister "Mom makes food I don't like on purpose so she can yell at me and threaten my graduation because I'm going to end up hospitalized for my weight loss." Where did that all come from? Her emotions I guess.

I've been reading about dissociation and splitting. It seems as though these are the correct terms for the symptoms I've been describing.?

Thanks qcr. She signed something at the gyno, who is also my gyno & he could not talk to me anymore. I was shocked! Especially since I knew she was lying to him about important things. When she returned home from inpatient treatment, she signed a family contract saying we could speak with her health providers until she is 18. She signed a new release we had notarized for the gyno. That being said, she is close to adulthood, so we are transitioning her to independence with her doctors and therapists. I do not communicate directly w her DBT therapist anymore. Instead I see my own therapist and she reports my concerns to the DBT therapist on my behalf. I let her and her new female psych discuss her meds alone with as little input from me as possible. I hope once stable she can attend appointments on her own.

It's a shame that they say things like "lab rat." My dd did this and sure enough another crisis came on. We used the crisis to have professionals teach her that she truly has a condition she will have to own and manage into adulthood without her parents. She did acknowledge her condition with the help of the female psychologist case manager she had. Another thing that may help them acknowledge, is by pointing out in a kind way a relative they may have inherited traits from. My dd loves my BPD mother, is a replica of her, but sees the struggles my mother has and has had. She has seen my mother lose her temper and fly off the handle. I told dd I want much better for her than her grandmother had. There was no care for this back then. They were misunderstood, miserable, often pregnant, and rarely graduated high school, almost never succeeding on their own. My dd, I think, can see that & wants better.
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js friend
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 04:12:40 PM »

Hi speedracer,

Before I found these boards I could never understand why my dd would lie and distort the truth. Even her P didnt have an answer for it... She had her version of events which were sometimes compltley different from the actual events... .  sometimes they were even fantastical, involving car chases and kidnappings... .  (which I supposedly witnessed)and dd would come out with them so quickly and with much ease.DD  has been telling her "stories" since the age of 3yo and I thought that she just seemed to have grown into a compulsive liar.

Then I read about "Gaslighting" and it all made sense just as lbjnltx has described.It is part of her disorder. I dont get mad about it, or take it  personally anymore, and go to lenghts to prove Iam right anymore.Now I know that this is a part of who she is.

Radical Acceptance has allowed me to come to terms with it.
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Speedracer
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 04:23:30 PM »

Thank you! I will be sure to read more detail on gaslighting as well. Very interesting what is going on side these brains of theirs!
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lbjnltx
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 06:03:40 PM »

Yes speedracer... .  splitting is a term sometimes used interchangeably with dissociation. Dissociation can be even more extreme at times where the pwBPD seems to completely separate from reality... .  scarry stuff!

Splitting can refer to thought process, relationships, ideals, etc... .  it is the imature need to simplify into "good" "bad" ... .  "black" "white" in order to cope.

Gaslighting... .  as I understand it is a defense mechanism to protect themselves... .  they convince themselves... .  and try to convince you that you are the one who is disordered... .  they are ok... .  it is you that has these problems... .  you may begin to believe this... .  or at least doubt your own sanity... .  thereby you leave them alone in their distorted thinking and problematic behavior and they go on unchallenged for a while longer.
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js friend
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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 03:48:38 AM »

Hi again!

I just wanted to add that my dd also lies and knows that she is lying too, and she gets flustered and annoyed when she is challenged. She even wrote in her diary about how easy it is to lie to me! Reading between the lines  I guess she believes that Iam pretty stupid because I just go let her lies go over my head now so she thinks I have fallen for them.

Something I have noticed is that  she will often use the same lies for weeks or months if to get her out of sticky situations where she may be expected to explain herself.

So, for example my dd is no good with money... .  so literally for months she would say that she had given her money to her friend because she needed helping out. Friend had no bus fare, friend got paid late,or they went out to eat and her friend had left her purse at home... .  which sounded plausable so I would let it go... .  but it would always be the same friend.

It would always be someone that dd knew I liked... .  seemed like she  thought that if she threw this girls name in any conversation  then it would become acceptable and I wouldnt question it.

The first time dd said it I thought, Awww dd is so kind and considerate, but by the time it got to the 3rd time, I knew dd had been lying all along as I had called the girl looking for dd one day and she told me they had hadnt been in touch for a while.

So sad that dd was actually playing the hero while splitting this girl and others .

It makes me wonder how on a daily basis how much of the truth we actually get between the lies, distortion, splitting, gaslighting... .  
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Speedracer
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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 07:26:59 AM »

I get that. Once I peeked into her DBT book where she had to keep a diary regarding daily care for herself. It asked abt self harm- cutting smoking drugs for each day. An entire column was just for lying each day. To my surprise she admitted to lying on a daily basis- over 20 times each day! It made me watch her more closely & use more spying tactics to always find the truth to try to keep her safe. She obviously knows what she is doing & gets some benefit from it. Not sure I should accept the lies. May instead cite them as symptoms of her condition as she learns to own & manage it into adulthood.
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Thursday
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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 07:58:01 AM »

I think her lying keeps dBPDSD21 from allowing a greater connection with her father. She lies the most to him. He is the person who asks her questions.

I think she knows that if he finds out she is lying that it puts dmore of a gulf between them.

However, to admit the truth to him is to lay bare what she is actually doing and she is entangled in her own need to believe that what she is actually doing is something.

What she is actually doing isn't what she says she is doing. And what she is actually doing is actually nothing (towards getting a job and being self- sufficient).

For her to admit the truth will require self-examination. The other way gives her a loophole. The loophole has changed though. When she was younger it was a defiance that she strongly believed. Now, she chooses not to be defiant. The loophole of not self-examining due to familiarity with the "footprint" of how defiance gives wings to her BS is what I hope will shift in paradigm because as long as she can edge herself away from the truth, the longer she stays in the no-man's-land of her BPD.

And the gulf grows more.

I am sadly curious to see where things will go for her in her life. It doesn't seem possible that she won't have more struggles ahead of her and it also, sadly, sadly, sadly, seems that the father/daughter connection will continue to have it's edges nibbled. His love for her is a hard kernal.

She knows the difference between a lie and the truth. But she NEEDS the lie, it serves a real purpose in her illness... .  

Thursday
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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2013, 09:09:03 AM »

Speedracer,

I like what Valerie Porr says about lying, its very interesting she says its not lying. While I do think they can control lying, they cant help it, just like us, but they do it on a more extreme extent. I believe it is because they feel such shame

We asked our son (nonBPD) where he sleeps when he stays the night at his gf s house, hes not going to say he sleeps in her bed when he knows this is not our values. I think, whats the point in asking him, it will just make him lie. He feels shame because he knows we didnt bring him up like that.

He is backed into a corner there, I think this is similar with pwBPD. Sure, they lie about silly things that we wouldnt care about, but they feel such shame, they think we will. My dd wont let me in her home because its a mess, would I care... .  No but she is convinced I would. Theres no logic in their behaviours
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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders
Speedracer
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2013, 11:41:33 AM »

Thank you heronbird. Your story gives me good ideas. It tells me that family therapy shouldn't always be about who is right, who is wrong, who is lying, who is not; with the therapist caught in the middle. Not all issues need to be brought out into the open. Some issues that are not life and death suffice enough within our BPD loved one's conscience. Picking our battles as we should. You make an excellent point about the shame they feel so intensely and lies can be a protection from that shame. I really need to stick with reading Porr's book through. I am going to do this starting today. Does what I said after your helpful comment make any sense? Thanks again!
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